Well, I posted earlier this week the basics of my situation: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=37&t=018627<p>My current situation is this. Of course, much of my information is sketchy because i am not with WS 24/7. Since I got home from the 7 month deployment overseas (got home April 3rd...D-Day April 6th), I have sort of being doing Plan A, although I didnt know anything about any of this until 3 weeks ago. during the last 10 weeks, I sort of Plan A'ed, but with almost weekly MAJOR LBs. Two weeks ago, I had my first session with Steve Harley and he seemed to get me calmed down and realizing that I was not much different than most that are going through this. So, last week I started in earnest to Plan A with no LB's.<p>WS talked to Steve for the first time last week and was very impressed. She said it was the first time she had talked to someone that understood how she got where she is and how she is feeling. <p>Over the past almost two weeks, things have changed sort of. With no major LB's, she has had to go looking for stuff to demonize me with. she still holds out the past (before I left overseas and my inattentiveness, etc), as well as all of the snooping, the PI, videos of their affair, etc. and holds it over my head. Still says she cant trust me. Still says that her feelings are still for OM. Last night, stated that if she went with her emotions, she would be gone, even if OM doesnt accept her.
[img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Good news I guess is that we are talking without yelling and she is interested in seeing where Steve takes us. An added bonus is that OM has been a major A'hole to her over the last two weeks. Told her to stop crying about us to him. Doesnt want to hear it. She went the first part of this week with saying she felt very comfortable at home and hadnt even thought of calling him. But yesterday, she got a bad grade at nursing school, started feeling anxiety and called him. Of course, he was an a'hole again. So, when she came home, she was upset. Inside, I was very glad. but I do not like to see her hurting. I asked her, if she was feeling comfortable at home the first part of the week, what made her call him yesterday? She said she misses him and misses what they had during the 7 months while I was deployed. I let it go at that, even though it hurt!<p>My deal now is first, I guess it looks like now that OM is starting to show his true colors and she may be starting to see the "reality" of the situation. but she still states that her wanting to leave has nothing to do with him, and that even if they dont work out, that she still thinks she will probably leave.<p>She says she sees the changes in me (Plan A is working here) but doesnt trust it and is afraid if she does, that she will wake up a year from now with me reverting to form, and she will have lost the OM. And she doesnt want to do that.<p>She wants me to sign separation papers, but not really separate (or so she says!). In Virginia, adultery caries some severe penalties for the WS. it is a fault state, so I can pursue divorce. because of the adultery, she is not entitled to alimony (and she is in the middle of nursing school and I am pretty much the sole bread winner). Since she had the OM around the kids on a couple of occasions, I think I can get sole custody. And, since my lawyer thinks the judge will be pissed because they did this whil I was deployed fighting terrorists after 9/11, that he is not going to be in a giving mood.<p>So, she knows this but says she wants a separation agreement which basically splits everything, joint custody of the kids, and me paying to house her in her own place if things dont work out until she finishes school. She says without the pressure that I hold over her (which I do not hold over her), she cannopt trust me, and thus cannot work on this. Even said she is not going to participate in the joint session with Steve that we have coming up if she doesnt have this.<p>So, what's going on? Is she trying to protect herself until she gets out of school and take care of herself? I think part of the reason that the OM is pissed is that she had probably told him that I was signing separation agreement, and then last week, I told her Iwasnt going to do it. So, he is probably tiring of all of this and probably wanting her to get out and come to him, or to leave him alone.<p>but I have plenty of indication that maybe she is being honest. maybe she is scared that she is going to leave him, come to me, it wont work out, and then I will hammer her and she will lose everything. So, she is afraid of investing anything into this. I just dont know.<p>She did say last night, when I reiterated that I was not going to sign anything like that, that she said "fine, then just understand that until I can trust you, we will not be working on us or moving any further."<p>Several questions for those out there. 1. Does this look like the beginning of the end of the A? If so, then Plan A is working great. 2. What do i do about this agreement? We need to have more time with Steve, but she is adament about this? If I dont, then was last night's comment her backing down from her demand, and that she was basically saying that until I earned her trust another way, then she couldnt work on this?<p>I am in very dangerous territory right now. our house is up for sale and what happens, and even if she moves with the family is very much up in the air. The agreement stated that assets would be split upon sale of house. Well, if we move without any agreement, is she coming with me? And if not, then what happens with all of the assets, kids, etc?<p>help!

Mortarman:<p>"Several questions for those out there. 1. Does this look like the beginning of the end of the A?"<p>Very much so. But it has to end on its own.<p>"If so, then Plan A is working great."<p>Yes!

"2. What do i do about this agreement? We need to have more time with Steve, but she is adament about this? If I dont, then was last night's comment her backing down from her demand, and that she was basically saying that until I earned her trust another way, then she couldnt work on this?"<p>I would NOT sign that agreement. She is probably trying to leverage the best possible set of outcomes for her, no matter what. That's fog for sure. I would bet that she'll STILL do the session with Steve with you, but even if she doesn't, YOU SHOULD. And what's this about YOU earning HER trust? Trust is a two-way street in a M, and she violated YOUR trust in the worst way by having an A, and since it isn't over, the burden of ending it AND rebuilding your trust in HER is on her shoulders. <p>Be firm, but be loving.

Thanks for the post.

The trust issue for her has to do with how I found out while i was in Bosnia, and the fact that NOTHING about their relationship was ever private. Added to that, the PI pretty much had them tracked the whole time. And some of that surveillance continues, even though i have asked for it to be shut down. I was not behind all of this. family and friends were when they suspected what was going on while i was gone.

She says her problem is that she feels that she is being set-up. Of course, I believe that is fog talking because she set herself up and has no right to privacy in that relationship. but, when I have said that to her, she has gone absolutely ballistic.

So, basically, the trust issue for her is trusting that I am not going to use all of this evidence against her and hammer her. She says she doesnt trust that I am working on this, that I have another agenda. of course, more fog.

I know I am not going to sign any agreement, but how do I not LB by telling her that she is going to have to live without that? how do I handle this situation, and still keep her moving forward? I think that my position is causing a severe strain on them because he wants my marriage over with so they can pursue this in the light of day. But he is showing his true colors now, which is good for me!! But, because he is getting this way, she has started kissing his butt (and this woman has NEVER been a butt kisser) in trying to placate him and hold him in place, I guess. I just wonder if the illusion or fog may make her abandon everything, say the hell with it, and run to him anyway.

I guess i cant worry about that. this whole endeavor is full of risks. Since I am military, I can stay with the plan, even when it doesnt look like it is going anywhere. just hoping that after all the battles are ove, that the war will be won!

<small>[ March 18, 2003, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mortarman:
<strong>With no major LB's, she has had to go looking for stuff to demonize me with. she still holds out the past (before I left overseas and my inattentiveness, etc), as well as all of the snooping, the PI, videos of their affair, etc. and holds it over my head. Still says she cant trust me. help!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
Mortarman,<p>I am confused now. Who had the affair? If she had the affair, then why would trusting YOU be the issue here? Because you CAUGHT her? Isn't that a little twisted? <p>There is nothing untrustworthy about catching someone in the act of doing wrong. There is something VERY WRONG wrong with having an affair. Is your wife under the illusion that she has the right to the privacy to destroy you?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mortarman:
<strong><p>So, basically, the trust issue for her is trusting that I am not going to use all of this evidence against her and hammer her. She says she doesnt trust that I am working on this, that I have another agenda. of course, more fog.<p>!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>oh ok, I didn't see this post, Mortarman, which explains it. She is using your PI work to try to manipulate you into an undeserved guilt to gain some ground here. Hopefully you see this trickery and don't allow her to put on the defensive with this nonsense. You have nothing to feel guilty about. You had a responsibility to protect yourself and your suspicions were well founded, weren't they?<p>Your comments above tell me that she is quite fearful that there may be consequences for her actions and that you may take steps to protect yourself from her. And I hope you are taking every step to protect yourself.

I know it does not make any sense AT ALL; but the reality is that when these things happen, we, the BSs are not trusted. Twisted? yes. Wrong? yes. Illogical? yes.<p>But true nonetheless. She, like my wife, feels that she must be able to trust you not to hurt her foirever because of what she's done, and she doesn;'t feel that she can do that right now. Part of it is the surveillance (same as with my W), part of it may be other factors about your M and R, meeting her needs, etc.<p>But even though this is absurd, you have to deal with that issue of trust. Much of my Plan A has been geared towards that; showing her that she can trust me.

Thanks both of you for the responses. She "seems" to be reacting well to Plan A, even though she is having periodic contact with OM (on phone, and going by and hanging out at his work sometimes). she says the contact is because she still loves him and that he calms her down and she misses him. As well as the fact that homelife is stressful because of our situation. He doesnt want to talk about the situation, thus up to two weeks ago, there was no stress there. but i believe he is tiring of the wait and doesnt want to be her shoulder to cry on anymore. I just listen to all of this, telling her that I understand.<p>The trust issue is that I was not the one who pursued the PI or the other intel gathering. I t was family and friends. she "says" if it had been me behind it, then it would be different. And she wants everyone out of our business. we were doing pretty well two weeks ago, and then one of my relatives ends up outside his house all night and he sees her, calls my wife and goes off. Of course, it is my fault. i have tried to shut everyone down and get them out of this, that I dont need anymore evidence, but they seem to want to stay in the game. She thinks I am part of it.<p>That's what she means about trust. she thinks I have been behind it all and I am continuing the information gathering. she says that makes her feel trapped, that I "cant get her on my own" and that I am holding her whole life over her head and FORCING her to stay, instead of letting her make a choice.<p>I try to tell her that she has had all of the choices. But, like having sex, once you make the choice, you might get pregnant. And after that, maybe there arent any good choices that you can see at the time. Just like with that example, she has choices. but the consequences may be severe. she can choose to stay and work on us. and she might have me turn out great, or I might go back to the way I was in not meeting some of her needs. And she would lose the OM in the process. Or she could leave. In that case, she loses everything she has loved and built over 9 years, she is stuck trying to get thru nursing school on her own AND there is no guarantee that her and OM will work out. Of course, there is a third option, which is to play me long enough to get through school next year and be in a position to take care of herself. But that would require both me and the OM cooperating and staying with the status quo for the next 12 months. And that aint gonna happen!!<p>so, I know she is in the fog and cant see how stupid her request is. My problem is in how to handle all of this.

Another question along these lines:<p>Do I continue to snoop, to track her, to try to find out what's going on? Or do I just lay back knowing that it is probably going on and let her just do it, never knowing for sure if she is lying to me?<p>Next question:
If Plan A is working and they are starting to have troubles, is that necessarily good for me, or is it just bad for them? And, how do I continue making it bad for them and maximize my love bank deposits?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mortarman:
<strong>With no major LB's, she has had to go looking for stuff to demonize me with. she still holds out the past (before I left overseas and my inattentiveness, etc), as well as all of the snooping, the PI, videos of their affair, etc. and holds it over my head. Still says she cant trust me. help!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>typical - dont you worry about it. my WW too has the habit of turning everything on its head: trust me?? pardon ???? the trust question should be the other way around, surely?
similarly with investigating/snooping: her first reaction upon my discovery was: why did you spy, you shouldnt have done that etc etc - how ridicoulous.
So, you can safely ignore these arguments - they are, as you say, simply manufactured reasons to justify her actions. at some point she'll see (hopefully) how ridiculous her arguments are, and it looks like your W is at least willing to listen, so I reckon you got a good chance.<p>Good luck!<p>Nick

NICK123:<p>Thanks. I guess it is good to know that I am not the only one here with the same problem. I am not saying that it is good that anyone is in this, just that I am glad there are others that can point the way.<p>Yeah, I pretty much see the smoke screen. I just dont know how she gets through the fog. She knows and has read a lot of the Harley's stuff. even Steve said that intellectually, she agrees with pretty much everything (except that her love for him is an illusion or an addiction). But, I came back after 7 months deployed and found a strange woman in my house. So, I count on my normal wife and her reactions and instead get the opposite with this woman. has made it very frustrating to to deal with her. Also, makes it hard for me to predict whether she will come to her senses or not. like I said, intellectually, she understands. after readin the surviving an Affair book, she actually ran to me, told me that for the first time that someone understood, and then read the book to me. now that was a month ago. Still waiting on the gray matter to take over, instead of that deceitful thing beating in her chest.

Mortarman,<p>It seems to me it is you that needs to gain trust or she is gone. You already have enough evidence to prevail in court. The only issue left to discuss and decide is if this is going to go to court. It is her decision it appears. You want to rebuild the marriage and she cannot decide.<p>But, if she is so afraid of losing OM, the solution is simple for her. Get divorced and have OM support her schooling and her life. Ain't life easy? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>It really is until you want everything from both sides of the issue and then it becomes really complex. What your W needs to understand is she is going to lose something: OM or you and family. It is really just a choice of which for her. But I suspect that if she fools around too much, she will lose YOU.<p>It really is easy isn't it? Of course what isn't easy is the "love thing". I do hope she keeps talking to Harley as do you. Really do hope that she comes to see that OM is using her. I hope there is enough time left for you to give her the chance.<p>But, I also hope that you don't even consider signing that separation agreement. She is trying to black mail you with this, but the fog is so thick that she cannot see she has nothing to offer unless she does work on the marriage. She has no leverage.<p>Sometimes the logic of the "fog" is soooo strange, but hopefully it will lift.<p>Hang in there and God Bless,<p>JL

Thanks JL!!<p>Yeah, I guess I am aware of all of this. it is just that my christian wife has "left the reservation" and I have no idea who this person is right now. i know it is the fog. The problem is, will it lift? How long? If it doesnt, then what? if it does, will we be okay? So many questions, so few answers.<p>I know she is lost in the fog. the hardest part is that I cant go find her in that pea soup. instead, I have to do what is totally unnatural and follow the harleys...sit still and wait for her to come to you.<p>Very difficult for a hard charging soldier!

Mortarman,<p>Yeah, I know you are a hard charging soldier. I could tell in your first post by how you described your W. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Having spent a good fraction of my life in and around the military, I know what your mindset is. Unfortunately, this problem isn't amenable to that approach, but it will eventually become so.<p>You see I believe that problems only remain problems until people get tired of them, then they solve them, or they walk away from them. You are fully capable of either solution. The hard part is waiting on your W to help solve the problem. <p>But hang in there. This will resolve itself. You KNOW that much about this mess.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Mortarman:<p>"Do I continue to snoop, to track her, to try to find out what's going on? Or do I just lay back knowing that it is probably going on and let her just do it, never knowing for sure if she is lying to me?"<p>I don't think you need to snoop anymore. You know what's going on. You'll also find that, if plan A is having any affect on her or the A is dying, that it will be pretty easy to tell when she's blatantly lying to you and when she's sincere. I can do that with my WW now. Things like: for the first couple months after D-day, we had HUGE fights about anything that had to do with her contact with OM. Now, we don't. What's left is still a bit sinister - her weakness that led to the As in the first place - but my course of action is simpler (though not yet "simple"). Yours will be too.<p>"If Plan A is working and they are starting to have troubles, is that necessarily good for me, or is it just bad for them?"<p>Both. Tehee!<p>"And, how do I continue making it bad for them and maximize my love bank deposits? "<p>By perfecting your plan A and being patient. If she's still operating on more than 3 brain cells at the end of this, you'll have a good chance at beginning recovery of your M!

JL:<p>"What your W needs to understand is she is going to lose something: OM or you and family. It is really just a choice of which for her. But I suspect that if she fools around too much, she will lose YOU."<p>And this is the bottom line. It really IS this simple. But, while the WS is in the fog and the BS is still new to plan A and afraid of losing the WS, the WS can't see it as this simple and will do everything they can to "encourage" the BS's insecurities about what they're doing... ...so they can continue their cakewalk.<p>I've been able lately to clearly see these options in my own mind. I don't think my W can yet, but there are signs she's getting there. Mortarman, you will get to that point, too. This method is amazing. It will work wonders for your self-esteem. It will make you an awesome M partner, either for your W or some other lucky gal. (I speak with some authority. Just check some of my earlier posts and compare them to how I'm doing now. I'm a changed man!)

2long,<p>Thanks for the posts. again it is good to hear from those who have already blazed the trail.<p>Of course all of this would be easier if i didnt have three young kids. Actually, the kids make it easier to stay in Plan A, but make it seem almost impossible to go to Plan B (although, Plan A is working right now so I have no intention of going that route yet).<p>It's like tonight. last night she told me right before bed that she was going to go out tonight with one of her study partners from mursing school. This was odd because she normally wouldnt go out in the middle of the week, but she said her partner has to go out of town this weekend with her husband so she will miss hanging out with her during their weekend study sessions. now, this comes on the heels of the last few days. Sunday through Tuesday, she tells me she feels great and hasnt even felt like calling the OM. I'm smiling!! but, she had a bad day yesterday at school, called him on the way home from school on her cell phone. now, the good part for me is that she said that "he was being a d***." But, I know when she is talking to him, that she is probably kissing butt because I think he is tired of all of this. My BS alarm is going off and I think she might have talked him into going out tonight (not her study friend) in order to "patch things up," and keep their "friendship" going. she has said over and over that since they broke up right before i came home, that there has been no intimacy, and no sex (beginning of march). but, he still waits in the wings, and when angry, she says things like "I know it will work out with him, if you will just let me go" or "if you were a man, or if you REALLY loved me, you would let me go." <p>but, like a good soldier, i am staying with the plan. even when things get hairy. just wondering about tonight though.

Mortarman:<p>"she says things like "I know it will work out with him, if you will just let me go" or "if you were a man, or if you REALLY loved me, you would let me go.""<p>My W said things just like this crap. And that's what it is. She STOPPED saying them when I told her that I would, could, and WILL let her go if she doesn't let OM go. Period. I've reminded her of that a couple of times since then, all without LBing (thanks to plan A!).<p>I, too, have kids, and a very complicated family and house situation (will be rebuilding our house for at least another year since a major fire last fall), so I know what you mean when you say plan A is easiest right now. Your patience may run out, like mine is starting to, and you'll then have to decide whether plan B will work for you. I don't think it will for me. But I think when that time comes, I'll know if there's any reason to stay M'd or not. So I'd likely go straight from plan A to DV. Hope it doesn't come to that.

Thanks for the post.<p>I guess my issue now is not staying with Plan A because i can see it working, at least around the edges. She even said last night that she is growing tired of all of this.<p>What I dont know is how to deal with the continued contact and lies. She told me last night all of a sudden that she was going out tonight with her nursing school study partner tonight. This was strange because normally they do something on the weekends, after the study group breaks up. But, WW stated that her friend and her husband were going out of town this weekend so they decided to do something tonight. That was weird. the weirder thing was what happened earlier this week to set this up.<p>From Sat through Tuesday, WW stated that she was more comfortable at home and hadnt even thought of calling OM (Plan A at work!!!). But yesterday, after a bad day at school, she called OM on her cell on the way home. of course, the OM was "being a d***," as she stated when she got home upset. he has been that way since a week and a half ago when I stated I wasnt signing any separation agreement, and when I started Plan A in earnest. <p>Now, she wasnt real happy last night, and i think it was mostly because OM is starting to wear down with all of this (because he cant get her away from me) and WW is wearing down because he is no longer the sweet supportive self he was while I was in Bosnia. But, now I am thinking that she isnt going out with her friend tonight, but that she has arm twisted him into going out so I guess she can work on getting him back into the fold.<p>Of course, I shouldnt be worrying about such things. And if it is true, and he continues to be a "d***," then maybe it will be a good thing.<p>Just want this to end. i hate when the ytalk and when they see each other, even if the intimacy isnt going on. because I know that she longs for all of that again while she sits in her addiction. The fog needs to lift soon!

Sorry for the second post...thought I lost the first!

Yes, we all want this to end. And it might help if you let her know that you consider her continuing contact, even if they're not shaggin', to be a continuation of her EA. It ain't over until it's over!