I emailed this to a friend and thought I would see what people here thought. Comments and suggestions welcomed...please.<p>Basically, I am FRUSTRATED. He is still in the fog. Summary of talk&#8230;tell me what you think?<p>H Why are you sad/quiet the last couple of days. It makes me mad you won&#8217;t tell.
T I need to have a clear head and a calm heart to talk important stuff. I was sad because after our last talk I realized it was up to me to keep us moving forward. So I did an exercise from Torn Asunder (message of affair) and the answers were very difficult for me.
H What was the message?
T You never would have married me if not for D and I have stolen your life. I ruined your life and made you unhappy. I am fat, unattractive, boring and do not turn you on anymore.
H It is not all the attractiveness thing. We were not connected. (then the not happy for a long time which I showed untrue by reminding him of things he said only months before A-he has no reply)
T I am trying to deal w/your withdrawal from an addiction stand point, it is easier for me, my heart. But even alcoholics when they stop drinking deal with why they were drinking. The drinks helped them escape the things they couldn&#8217;t deal with. What did the OW help you escape from? You still have the desire to call &#8211; what needs will hearing her voice fill? I can&#8217;t fill needs if I don&#8217;t know what they are.
H If you stop drinking then you aren&#8217;t escaping anything anymore. You are fixing things &#8211; you have lost weight , stopped smoking (oh my god that was 3 yrs ago!), and you do more around the house.
T So we just wait for your desire to fade. No effort in making M better? I don&#8217;t want that life back. I want better but we have to work to make us better.
H Whenever we talk it seems worse. Let me just deal with it on my own.
T I don&#8217;t think that works. Look at our life.
H Well your just one part of my life and if I am unhappy it isn&#8217;t necessarily you. I am trying. I am just not trying enough. I am waiting to see what happens.
T I thought I was your partner in life &#8211; all aspects. If you put half the effort into us that you put into A you would be amazed at what we could be.
H I put no effort into A.
T How many times a week did you call OW?
H Three.
T That is effort. How many times a week did you call me? None. Remember when you used to call me three times a day? That was only a year ago. We were connected then. H wouldn&#8217;t answer. (Then I start to get sad) Okay, I don&#8217;t think you are ready to do too much so maybe we could talk about POJA and see if we could get that rolling. There are no guarantees but I can guarantee I will give you and this M everything I&#8217;ve got. Until you realize that the A was wrong and want to work at M, I will try to do things slowly with you. So will you read POJA and we can talk about that next time?
H I am sorry for hurting you. I hate talking about this because it hurts you even more. I know it was wrong. But I have these great memories and they are not easy to let go of. It is like the puppy &#8211; he chews your shoe and it is fun but he gets caught and in trouble and then looks at the shoe and says I want to chew it but I will get in trouble if I do.<p>H then gets quiet and we call it a night. H still quiet this morning &#8211; not as bad. AHHHHH!!!!!!! What is going on in that head? <p>Thoughts? Any hope?<p>[ June 27, 2002: Message edited by: Twinkles ]</p>

Are you 100% sure he has ended all contact with OW??

No I don't know for sure. He says last contact was beginning of May. OW got no contact letter and called work to get H new cell # and she called him. He did not hang up but spoke to her <img src="graemlins/teary.gif" border="0" alt="[Teary]" /> <p>He has another new cell # and offered to show me bills (work phone) but I haven't taken him up on it. I figure if he wants to call her he could from work. So how do you know for sure? I asked him and he said no contact, but I have heard that before. I want to believe. How do you know?<p>[ June 27, 2002: Message edited by: Twinkles ]</p>

Hi Twinkles,

Sorry that you are hurting so much right now...

I'm glad to see that you've gotten a copy of Torn Asunder.... my wife and I are working through it now...

To answer the question... yes, I do believe that you and your H can repair the damage that the A caused in your M... but you must realize that there are things that YOU must take responsibility for in the marriage as well. I'm not saying that you were responsible for your H straying... That responsibility is entirely on your H. But you must come to understand how you contributed to the condition of your M that would allow your H to even consider straying.

Let me see if I can rephrase some of your comments:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">T ...I realized it was up to me to keep us moving forward. So I did an exercise from Torn Asunder (message of affair) and the answers were very difficult for me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LB- you are accusing him of NOT working on the M. It might be better to say "I feel that I'm the only one working on our marriage." This is a VERY subtle difference, you are still telling him your TRUE feelings, but you haven't accused him of not working on the M at all.... because as you told us, he does feel that he is working on it in his "own way". Remember, you can't make your H do a single thing... just like he can't make you do anything that you don't want to do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">T I thought I was your partner in life – all aspects. If you put half the effort into us that you put into A you would be amazed at what we could be.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LB- Try saying..."I am so committed to you and our marriage, but I just don't feel that you value me. It would help me feel valued if you do ____."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">T How many times a week did you call OW?H Three.
T That is effort. How many times a week did you call me? None. Remember when you used to call me three times a day? That was only a year ago. We were connected then. H wouldn’t answer. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LB- This entire exchange is one big LB. Do you think that your H would have gotten the same message if you said: "I need to feel valued by you. I loved it when you used to call me several times a week from work. Would you start calling me again?"

Please don't take any of this as bashing you, or that you've "blown" it... we've all blown it from time to time... I guess my point is that there are always different ways to express your feelings... you must learn how to express your TRUE feelings with out belittling your H...

Hang in there and know that if you and your H continue to work on your M and remain committed to doing the hard work... that your M WILL recover.

Take care,
RIF90

RIF90 -

Oh thank you for you answer, I just found it. You are soooo right. I have been LB all along and I don't want to!!!! So help me...how do I "learn how to express your TRUE feelings without belittling your H..."?

I am so afraid to speak with H now for fear of LB. I want him to feel safe but then I get so excited during conversation and I LB <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> And here I thought I was doing so well <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Help repairing damage from Sunday. I said I need some reassurance once and awhile when I am feeling insecure. I said I'm not sure what I am looking for so I probably shouldn't have mentioned it. H asked what I feel insecure about. I said I was working on many things but I think the biggest one was that I feel that I am not good enough. H said don't be insecure. End of conversation. Okay...no big deal. Then I call him later when D & I are headed home. He is at a bar drinking. I said I have to go now and hung up...no conversation...turned off my phone and went home. H shows up shortly. I never mention the bar. H asked if I was mad...I said no. H asked if I was disappointed...I said not with him, no. H asked with who...I said with me. H says why...I said because I know I shouldn't expect anything. I should have no expectations. H had no idea what I was saying...

Twinkles,

I think you need a diversion. Something that can help you both know where you need to be without going tooo deep. U know like a small reminder?

Here's my thought.... that puppy chewing the shoe illustration of his. Howz about that? Kinda a funny trigger. When you start feeling down or he gets kinda stupid..... hold out a shoe and ask if he wants a bite? Keep the lesson light hearted. But it may make more of an impact than you realize. Your H sounds a lot like mine.

I got soo frustrated that I started talking to the wall. For me, that forlorn look helps. He will even go looking for me if he feels there is something unresolved as a result of my look.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I use it when it is neccesary.

JMHO,
L.

Hi Twinkles: You wrote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
T You never would have married me if not for D and I have stolen your life. I ruined your life and made you unhappy. I am fat, unattractive, boring and do not turn you on anymore.
H It is not all the attractiveness thing. We were not connected. (then the not happy for a long time which I showed untrue by reminding him of things he said only months before A-he has no reply)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't refute what he believes is true. His perception is his reality. You will only be banging your head against a wall.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
T I am trying to deal w/your withdrawal from an addiction stand point, it is easier for me, my heart. But even alcoholics when they stop drinking deal with why they were drinking. The drinks helped them escape the things they couldn't deal with. What did the OW help you escape from? You still have the desire to call; what needs will hearing her voice fill? I can't fill needs if I don't know what they are.
H If you stop drinking then you aren't escaping anything anymore. You are fixing things; you have lost weight, stopped smoking my god that was 3 yrs ago!), and you do more around the house. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It sounds as if he is frustrated that you are moving forward and he is not. Not unusual. My H expressed the same frustrations to me. He was envious.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
T So we just wait for your desire to fade. No effort in making M better? I don't want
that life back. I want better but we have to work to make us better.
H Whenever we talk it seems worse. Let me just deal with it on my own.
T I don't think that works. Look at our life. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My H kept sying the same thing to me when I said similar things to him that you said to your H. Eventually, I did it... and boy! what results I discovered. Keep working on you. He will notice and we pray that his frustration with your changes will turn to admiration... It may also lead to him making his own changes in his own way. Instead of saying it doesn't work... instead say, "I respect that you want to work on yourself and I hope that you will eventually share with me your plan for doing such." Then relay to him YOUR PLAN for working on you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

H Well your just one part of my life and if I am unhappy it isn't necessarily you. I am trying. I am just not trying enough. I am waiting to see what happens.
T I thought I was your partner in life; all aspects. If you put half the effort into us that you put into A you would be amazed at what we could be. (YOWCH! Disrespectful judgment here )
H I put no effort into A.
T How many times a week did you call OW?
H Three.
T That is effort. How many times a week did you call me? None. Remember when you used to call me three times a day? That was only a year ago. We were connected then. H wouldn't answer. (Then I start to get sad) Okay, I don't think you are ready to do too much so maybe we could talk about POJA and see if we could get that rolling. There are no guarantees but I can guarantee I will give you and this M everything I've got.
Until you realize that the A was wrong
and want to work at M, I will try to do things slowly with you. So will you read POJA and we can talk about that next time?
H I am sorry for hurting you. I hate talking about this because it hurts you even more. I know it was wrong. But I have these great memories and they are not easy to let go of. It is like the puppy; he chews your shoe and it is fun but he gets caught and in trouble and then looks at the shoe and says I want to chew it but I will get in trouble if I do.

H then gets quiet and we call it a night. H still quiet this morning; not as bad. AHHHHH!!!!!!! What is going on in that head?

Thoughts? Any hope?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lots is going on in his head... but you have to bite your tongue and wait until he is ready to open up... in the meantime... don't let his SLLOOWW move towards recovery hold you back... chose one or two things to work on... and put everything else aside...

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING I DID... was to STOP HAVING TALKS LIKE THIS. Honestly... they do no good... he CAN't (or WON't) tell you what you want to hear... but if you leave him alone and work on you... he just may... eventually... I know that is what has happened in my case... and NOONE on this board would have expected my H to do the 180 he has.

Hugs,
Cali

<small>[ July 03, 2002, 12:12 AM: Message edited by: Cali ]</small>

Thanks guys. I need to relax I know. Things were much better for me when I was doing a TRUE plan A. It just seems impossible for me to get back there after dday #2. So many issues... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Orchid...can I just hit him with the shoe? Just kidding. I might give it a try - who knows it might make him laugh and I do love to see him laugh. It is so frustrating talking to the wall...which brings me to...

Cali...Thank you. I need to just bite my tongue. Pick one or two things and work on those. Okay, I have been working sooooo hard on time together. I will continue to do that and forget R talk. But I would really, really, really like to get POJA on the table for discussion. I guess I am just not there yet. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Let him come out of the fog-on his own. Forget R talk, forget R talk, patience....

I want to get back in Plan A. The good true Plan A I was in. Why can't I get back there? I feel so tired, jaded, STUCK!

I am pledging right now to have a great long weekend. No R stuff, only good fun times and some good food, friends and FIREWORKS (maybe at home later too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ).

Hmmmm...independence day...plan a...hmmmm