My WW and I have been in some form of recovery ( or false recovery) for a while now. She even initiated SF with me Back in the fall for the first time in almost a year. Since then it has been infrequent, and at the time I told her, that I would approach her and if she did not want to, it was OK because I understand how difficult it is to get back to that. In the past 2 to 3 months, I have approached and been refused each time. This week I may have gone overboard and asked 3 times since last weekend. Each time it's been not tonight. Saturday evening she said she was tired and how about tomorrow. That was fine with me, but Sunday came and went with nothing from her. As I was going to bed, I asked her if she wanted to before she went to work ( she works graveyard).
She said no again, and suggested Monday night. I told her it's fine if she doesn't want to, just let me know. What I can't understand is what's going on here? I don't want to pressure her, I just want to know what's going on. If this is a problem ( like we have had in the past) why doesn't she just say so. I 'm not asking anymore, and if nothing happens to night, do you think I should confront this. I know this area has been a problem for us, but she always denied it until the A came up. Anyone have any suggestions/ I think maybe it's time to just end this. If she doesn't want to talk about the problems, how in the hell are they ever going to get resolved. She won't go to counseling , so is she just binding her time , doing this to make me ask for a D ? Anyone you has an idea, please let me know. Thanks

Hi Mark,

Not quite sure how to answer you. Gotta think about this one!!! So I am bumping it up to get others to respond.

Will check in later.

L.

Mark H,

How was your plan A ? ... detail please ...

Get back to plan A ... you might not have fixed the problem on your side. For Martian sex start with the thing between our leg but for Venusian sex start with the thing between their ears. Bluntly, the key to sex is not her panty but her heart. Let tonight go ....

Read two books ... Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus plus the Language of Love.

Good Luck -RH-

Mark
Being a female I have to say s** for me starts with my ears. I love to be wooed so to speak. I love all the sweet talk that makes me feel in the mood so to speak.. Maybe candles, wine music etc.. and tell her you just want to spend time with her. Who know what might happen. For me and most females I know this would close the deal..
Just putting my 2 cents in.

I'm jumping in without knowing background.

I'm thinking that she's turned you down 3 times in one weekend so overt wooing would maybe be like nagging. This may take a more indirect approach. The long woo if you know what I mean. What about some of those typical wooing things - without expectations.

NOthing extremely out of character though. Have you considered approaching this as you would with a new woman in your life. You don't just walk up to a woman and say, "Want to roll in the hay with me?"
More of a plan A approach.

For the last few years my x was at home, I was the chief initiator. He just sort of laid there and tolerated it. For him to initiate it, he had to start it while asleep. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Rub her back. Another time, rub her feet. Little things. Tell her she's gorgeous. Tell her you love her/her body.

But, I don't know the story. But this is my opinion. (Maybe a counselor for you could help you learn more about what your roll is in all this and how to reach your w.)

Hmmm...

Hi Mark H, well I have to say that I like what redhat said about getting back to the basics of filling her emotional needs. Does she crave and need conversation? Recreational companionship? Financial support? Affection? Domestic support?

Being a graveyard worker, I KNOW that it definitely fills my love bank when my H offers to take the kids for a long drive so I can get a much-needed nap on the weekends!

Another thing, just from a woman's viewpoint, if my H came straight out and asked me for sex, that would just kill the mood right there. Just make your move, man! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> But I totally understand that you are sort of walking on eggshells. Still, asking is not the way. Setting the mood is the way. You gotta figure out a way where she is bringing it to you on a silver platter. That's how my H gets his top need of SF filled by ME! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> (by giving me what I emotionally crave and need!)

Thank You all for your input. To give you some background, I have given her massages and told her how beautiful she looks.I have encouraged her to sleep extra, done more than my share of housework, cooked dinners. I have tried my best to set the mood. I have tried everything short of pouncing on her. Last night she delayed again, When she went in to take her nap, I casually said, something like . would you like some company. She said when she woke up and before she went to work ( She got some sun yesterday and had a minor burn on her neck which I put aloe lotion on. When she woke up, she delayed again and then finally, like a lamb being led to the slaughter, asked if I wanted a "quickie". I told her I did not think she looked like she wanted to and it was OK. I said as long as my timing is just lousy, that's OK, but if it was something else to please let me know, because I know it was part of the problem we have and I did not want to go back to what was happening before. She never looked at me ( no eye contact at all) and never said there was another problem, but didn't say it was just my timing. What does that mean. Well My WW lies by omission. She figures if she doesn't actually say it, it's not a lie. Please let me know folks... Did I do the right thing ? I think I did for me. I don't want SF from someone who looks like it would be torture. Is this a giant waste of time and if so, why is she staying.
any input would help, Thanks to all of you.

Thank You all for your input. To give you some background, I have given her massages and told her how beautiful she looks.I have encouraged her to sleep extra, done more than my share of housework, cooked dinners. I have tried my best to set the mood. I have tried everything short of pouncing on her. Last night she delayed again, When she went in to take her nap, I casually said, something like . would you like some company. She said when she woke up and before she went to work ( She got some sun yesterday and had a minor burn on her neck which I put aloe lotion on. When she woke up, she delayed again and then finally, like a lamb being led to the slaughter, asked if I wanted a "quickie". I told her I did not think she looked like she wanted to and it was OK. I said as long as my timing is just lousy, that's OK, but if it was something else to please let me know, because I know it was part of the problem we have and I did not want to go back to what was happening before. She never looked at me ( no eye contact at all) and never said there was another problem, but didn't say it was just my timing. What does that mean. Well My WW lies by omission. She figures if she doesn't actually say it, it's not a lie. Please let me know folks... Did I do the right thing ? I think I did for me. I don't want SF from someone who looks like it would be torture. Is this a giant waste of time and if so, why is she staying.
any input would help, Thanks to all of you.

Mark H,

Thanks for the background ... IMVHO, you have a bigger problem than SF. Definitely you are not in recovery, sorry to say this but you have to be in plan A. Review back your plan A and match it with her recent complaint.

I do not want to alarm you but 90% BS hunch is correct. You live w/ a person for so many years, you know when they are not themself and after A you develop extra sensitivities too.

Again if she doesn't want sex ... just hold her, hug her, gave her affection w/o being sensual. Show it to her that she is worth more than just a SF. Never ask for sex again, IMHO, it is an LB to her now. Sorry.

-RH-

Red, Thank You so much for the reply. I have Plan A'ed my butt off with this women. I have done everything I can think of and nothing seems to work. My Plan A has been very good, I have accepted everything and tried to get to the heart of what the problems are, but I have been stonewalled all the way. I have Plan A'ed for myself as much as for her and I am happy I have had an opportunity to learn about my faults and work on them. But I get so tired of having to do this alone, I get angry at the fact that I am a nice guy, a wonderful husband ( her words) and still I am expected to continue to do all of this while she just laps it up and gives me nothing in return. Why do the WS's always get pampered, while we get dumped on. I don't know how much longer I can take this. You can be assured I will never ever ask her for SF again. I do not want to continue to feel inadequate in this area because she can't be upfront with what's wrong. Most women may be from Venus, but this one's from Pluto or farther. I don't ven care about the SF as much as the lack of effort from her to tell me the truth. I think it may be time to just get it over with. I come her for encouragement to hang on, but I must say it gets tougher each and every day. I am starting to think nice guys do finish last.

Mark H,

I hear you ... yes it is hard but you 've picked this pluto to be your wife <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . Now, pick up the language of love ... find out how to open her up. To communicate to her that her actions will drained your love for her and you need her to work on relation. It is very dangerous when your M is stale or in limbo. Look again at plan A effort, you might be closer to plan B. One of the condition to go to plan B is when your plan A has no impact no more and you 've done fixing.

Do you have kids ?

-RH-

Red, No Kids, Talked about it just before A, She misunderstood my concern for getting our financial house in a little better order to mean I wanted to delay the process. (not true, told her that after A, just normal male concern for security for off spring). As far as friendship and such we are getting along great, the only problem area is intimacy of all forms. If I could get her to open up I would , but she calms up whenever I bring up discussing things. How do you fight that. Part of me thinks I am here just because I'm afraid of being alone (no family left) only child. I review Plan A every day. I don't want to LB but maybe I just have to to draw some reaction out of her. How do you Plan B when you are both in the same house ?

Red, No Kids, Talked about it just before A, She misunderstood my concern for getting our financial house in a little better order to mean I wanted to delay the process. (not true, told her that after A, just normal male concern for security for off spring). As far as friendship and such we are getting along great, the only problem area is intimacy of all forms. If I could get her to open up I would , but she calms up whenever I bring up discussing things. How do you fight that. Part of me thinks I am here just because I'm afraid of being alone (no family left) only child. I review Plan A every day. I don't want to LB but maybe I just have to to draw some reaction out of her. How do you Plan B when you are both in the same house ?

Mark H,

Is her A over? If the A is still going on there can be no recovery.

Remember that women are wired much differently then we are. Give up on the SF for a while until you read "Mars and Venus in the Bedroom". For women remember these three lines:

Bad relationship = Bad sex
Good relationship = Good sex
Excellent relationship = Excellent sex

My wife and I where very active sexually after D-day. Part of the reason we were was my wife was trying to feel better about the sh** she caused me by doing this for me. It was real real bad. I did not know this, but later I found out she cried afterward. She did not want to have sex with me and was hurt by the fact that I was trying. She did not feel close to me and was very injured by me trying.

I realized this after I read the book and have not had sex with her since then (around 2 months and two weeks to be exact). I wanted to protect her feelings and decided that I could deal without the sex until we were working as a couple again.

Do not get hung up on SF. This will not help either of you right now. Work on fill her most important needs right now. Do not work on pushing her to fill your need for SF. This will come later and will be the best you ever had if you are successfull with Plan A. WORK ON FILLING HER NEEDS!!! Work on romancing her. When is the last time you dated, gave her flowers, etc. My WW posted a list of romantic things her they are:

1. Call her during the day. Tell her you were thinking of her and wanted to say Hi and you love her.
2. Tell her she is pretty, attractive and make romantic remarks.
3. Be sympathetic to her.
4. Accept who she is.
5. Draw a bath for her when she comes home from work, light a candle and play soft music.
6. Write love notes to her and send her a homemade lovecard to the office.
7. Talk to her during lovemaking and afterwards. Express your desires openly, share yourself more fully with her; caress and hold her after lovemaking. Also, make lovemaking a new experience every time.
8. Be interested in her during the morning and at night - Turn off the TV and don't read.
9. Help with dinner dishes and clean the kitchen (assuming she cooked).
10. Be silly with her and say sweet little nothings.
11. Bring her flowers occasionally (I think roses are overrated. Bright Gerber Daisies are the Best!)
12. Hold her hand and kiss her on the cheek especially at unromantic times.
13. Express appreciation for the things she does (say the meal was good, appreciate the tidy home, thank her for what she does do).
14. Say nice things about her in front of others.
15. Spend quiet time with her, just sharing life.
Your W will know you are sincere about showing Affection and Admiration when you do / give these things without expecting anything in return. If you are consistent and free with this, she will "get it".

Dream, Thanks for the reply. To answer your questions. I give her flowers every week and have since we got married, I cook breakfast and dinner almost every weekend. I do more than my share of the household chores.
I have tried to hold her and her hand looking for nothing in return and I sense an uncomfortableness, I have always called her during the day, ( not as much any more after D Day she told me it felt like I was checking up on her. I would like nothing more now than to just hold her without SF, and I get no where. I never pushed to re establish SF, she asked me, during I told her how wonderful and special she is to me. I have drawn her a bath, I give her massages almost weekly expecting nothing in return, but it feels like she just can't get over the guilt or maybe there is still contact. I have become very observant since then though, and I don't suspect there is. She may be getting much better at hiding the trail for all I know but I don't think so. I guess I must be am idiot. Does anyone out there think Contact is what's making her behave like this. If not what else could it be ?

Mark H,

There is nothing wrong with you at all!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> You sound like a man very in touch with what a women needs. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Something sounds very very fishy here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Remember the EN multiplication and division factor.

How do you know the A is over? Has she told you? Do you have any evidence that it may be still going on? Have you witness withdrawal when it ended (no withdrawal=A still exists)?

Mark H,

Snoop around ... A might not be over. I did try my best 5.5 years ago and I was going crazy ... EA become PA 2 years ago then hell broke loose last year. Nothing wrong with you ... I found out all the stuff by snooping. Let me know if you need some ideas.

About plan B under the same roof ... not possible unless you draw up agreement when you will be in and when she will be in the house ... NC !. Actually you should be steady doing what you have been doing plus turn the volume higher ... why ?. You have physical and contact more than OM ... she might be guilt ridden, you plan a seed now for your plan B. It will go a long way.

Meanwhile focus your energy to snoop and also to figure out what EN was OM's meeting ?.

Rough sea ahead, be patience. -RH-

Dear Mark,
This is not going to sound very MB-oriented, but just my opinion okay so just take it for what it's worth. Try not to be afraid of being on your own because to me, being on your own is 10 times better than being in a relationship where the other person doesn't want you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

God loves you. You are valuable and precious to Him. There is someone out there who can love you the way God intended for you to be loved and wanted. IF you believe that your wife is that someone, then by all means do whatever is necessary to save your marriage.

If you believe she is still in contact with the OM or even maybe in love with the OM, then come straight out and ask her. See what she says. Watch her expressions. Then, go snoop, like redhat said, just get your answers and go from there. If she is still in contact, then move out and do your Plan B--which is to preserve your love for her and get her to end the affair for once and for all.

If you are only staying with her because of fear of being alone, then you are also lying to her about your reason for being there.

Thank You to everyone who replied. I am a little better today, we have some events planed for the 4 day weekend coming up, so I am going to treat them like dates and see what happens. Dream, yes she told me A was over, and she did go into a funk afterwards. No I have no evidence there is contact. As all of you know all too well, we WS's have our ups and downs. Red, Any snooping ideas you have , I am all ears. I have found some things out that way but I am not Columbo by any means. Do you mean I should just suggest that maybe I should not have any contact with her ? I sometime wonder if my mind plays tricks on me and maybe she is trying, but the guilt is so bad it's just real hard for her. Bin, I do love her with all me heart and soul and although I wonder if I am afraid to be alone, I do know that she is my best friend and I enjoy spending time with her. I don't think that's the reason I stay, I think I just don't want to make a mistake based on emotional turmoil that we all go through. I just don't know how to draw her out of this and it's frustrating and I know that I can't make someone love me. Our anniversary is coming up in September and we may go away in August for a few days so maybe I should see how that goes and make my decision after that. any thoughts ?

Mark H,

The most important thing for you to do now is to find out what you are up against. You need to know for sure "IS THE A OVER". Until you know for sure, it is very difficult to know how to act and how to treat her.

Some quick questions:

1) How long did the "funk" last? Few days, few weeks?
2) How intimate is your conversations with her? Have you asked her about her feelings for you? Does she share with you her feelings?
3) Is there any contact with the OM? Have you checked cell phone records, email, home phone records (you need a supena for those)? Are there periods of time where you are unsure of her whereabouts?