It was going well last week! Now DW claims she is in jail (in so many words)!

As I was going to report that we have been getting along well. Last week DW had been more attuned to me & MORE AFFECTIONATE!

Thursday evening we got into a squabble about her going out to meet friends at 9:00 PM – She wanted to meet two gals from her work for a hot tube party @ one of the gals home – 45 minutes away – I did not say anything intially, then she got upset saying that she could tell by the look on my face and overall reaction (body language or whatever) that I was going to be upset & I would brood. She was actuartate – As I was in fact not pleased. Not raging mad, more of a dejected feeling (and look). She said she thougth I should encourage her to go & have fun. I did not feel threatened by her plans as such, but I definitely did not feel comfortable with what I felt was becoming a trend & perhaps a new standard or expectation of appropiate actions. Now it is perfectly alright to just pop up and go out to meet friends at 9:00 PM?! And I should encourage such things, because it will make her happy? Maybe I am losing it, but it just doesn’t sound right to me?

I was not going to wine here, but she has made comments since & it seems she is not going to let this pass. Perhaps I have become too controlling & should not have a say in anything she wants to do? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

The week before she had a church meeting at 6:30 PM – Normally they are over within two hours. She gets home at 10:30 PM -- she had called a girlfriend after the meeting and she went over to visit & they ended up going out for a bite to eat at a sports bar/ restaurant – Not that is bad in & of itself – I just thought it was perhaps inconsiderate of her &/or it would have been nice to let me know. ?? I did not say a word though. Then there was the dog show thing where she was to meet a lady from work (different form hot tube gal) & her daughter at this park – I asked if I could go & she said, No, it was a girl thing. She had left at 8:30 in the morning and returned at around 1:00 PM because our Siberian got stung by a bee, otherwise it would have been longer. But she had gioven me no indication of any time. As it turns out this friend, again from work, did not show. My DW said she tried calling me on cell phine but did not have coverage, which I am sure was the case.
We have been out with friends & to a couple parties. So, it is not like we don’t do anything together.

Back to Thursday evening. During the week we normally go to bed around 11:00 PM. Her work stays open until 9:00 PM. One of her co-workers has a hot tube & she lives about 45 minutes from our home. Another lady lives within 15 minutes of the first lady. My DW mentions to me during dinner that these two were talking about having a little get together at the tube after work & invited my DW. I was invited too, if I wanted to hang out with the girls. Of course this was not a sincere offer. My DW then explained that it was stormy and they were probably not going to do it.

I had suggested a quiet evening at home cuddling –she agreed – well one thing lead to another & as we are in the throws of S** when the phone rings & my DW says it is this one co-worker. After we finish, no small talk, she is calling this lady at their work. She comes back and announces that she was going over to her friends after they get off work 9:00 PM. I do not say anything negative, but I am sure I had a big look of disappointment.

She is very agitated & says that I play golf and go out with my one friend (when my DW is working & his W is visiting her mother), and she does not say anything. I do occasionally play golf on Saturday mornings – only three times in last 6-7 weeks & otherwise when I play it is on the same night she plays or perhaps nine holes when she is working. If I get an invitation to go out in the evening when she is not working I decline. When my best friend calls to see if I am available, the available part is if my DW is working - same with me if I call him - if his W will be home, we make no plans.

She said she hesitated to tell them yes because she thought it might be a problem with me. She of course laid the control thing on me. She said they know how controlling I am. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I told her that she has her ideas about how a good martial relationship should work & I have mine, but that she get so upset if it is not according to her ideas, yet we have no basis or independent standard. I tell her that a martial relationship should involve some accountability to each other. I mention that in my small group of 9 guys that play nine holes on Tuesdays, three of the regulars go home shortly after the round, & do not stay very long for drinks and food. Why? Because their spouses asked them to come home & no body gets uptight & accuses the other of being too controlling.

I feel she is going to continue to make this incident an example of how I am unreasonable with her. This morning we are watching a morning show and they have a spot about an 80 year old lady getting plastic surgery to include breast implants. My W comments that her husband must be dead. I ask innocently, why? She says, "Because she gets to do what she wants." I make no comment.

I am at a loss. Am I out of control here? What do you think, does this kind of thing sound quite normal (going out at 9:00 PM to meet friends) and am I in fact becoming a control freak when I express some dis-pleasure about this kind of thing? She tells me that I have her under my thumb. I never had that impression, but maybe she has a point? Should I encourage to go out & have fun,, no matter the time or circumstance.

Oh, she did say I was invited to come along if I “really” wanted to go, but she did not present this as such. She specifically said she was going; she did not say anything close to, “Would you like to join me or would like to go with me to the hot tube?”
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
I am new at trying to set boundaries (for myself!). Any ideas as to how I might have handled this differently?

<small>[ July 01, 2002, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: Hurrian Hoosier ]</small>

Hi HH, I understand your frustration well because I used to feel the same way.

Immediately following D-day and for 9 or so months after, I reacted the same way to plans my H made that didn't include me or that seemed odd. He said I had him on a leash and I didn't want him feeling that way so I looked for solutions.

Back in February I incorporated a 180 into my plan A and I started doing things I liked with others instead of relying on the fact that my H would be here when I expected him to be. I took my daughters places and visited with friends or family and I didn't tell H where I would be. After a few instances of him not being able to reach me he saw the light lol.

I understand where you're coming from but your W doesn't seem to. Have you considered a 180? I'm going to take my daughters to the lake but I'll check back this evening.

HH,
I've been accused of being a control nut as well, but mainly during the time my H wanted his freedom to be married but act single. Now, we don't have that problem. He doesn't seem to think I'm controlling and he doesn't have a problem with being accountable.

There's no way on God's green earth that it would be ok with me for my H to go hot tubbing with co-workers at 9pm while I sat home. Especially his co-workers (FOW is a co-worker and would be included on some of those "out with the guys" things). Nor would he go out after a meeting, any meeting without calling me and/or inviting me at that point.

You've struggled with this awhile. You can't (shouldn't!) chain her in the basement <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> , she won't POJA, she fights accountability...so, what are you left with?

All I see as your main options are:
1)Accepting her as is
2)Letting go

Be very clear with her that you'd like a good marriage, with her. But, the way things are, you aren't happy either. I think I'd try to work in some POJA philosophy. If she isn't happy about your golfing, she should have said. If it isn't a problem with her, then it can't be used to tit for tat (so to speak <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

POJA main theme is that neither of you does something the other doesn't agree with, I think Dr. Harley even stresses ENTHUSIASTICALLY agrees with.

First step, ask her what she thinks is a reasonable amount of recreational time apart, that should equal, or be less than, your time together. Is that feasible, given work, etc.

If she doesn't want to POJA, then I think it is up to you, can you deal with a lifetime of this?

TD's option of 180 is also a consideration, but your W may love the 180 and do more of the "Well you do XYZ, why can't I ABCD?" that she already does. Worth a try, though POJA & using 180 to go out on your own aren't very compatible.

I'd be wary about that kind of a 180 leading to the 2 of you leading increasingly separate lives, but if you try it, you'll figure that out soon enough.

I did an 18 month Plan A, but it was followed 3 months later by my serving the D papers. And my H got it, wanted the marriage. I guess that's a kind of severe 180, but putting the marriage back together after that wasn't easy.

Plan A with an accountable spouse sometimes never has to move to B. But, it doesn't sound like your W is there.

You can give it some more time if you aren't sure what to do next, but I'd suggest setting an internal clock for the amount of time--weeks, months--you continue to do Plan A without your spouse's participation in marital recovery.

<small>[ July 01, 2002, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: Lor (Lor) ]</small>

Thanks for everyone’s insightful replies!

Is the late night (she would not have been home before 11:00 if she only stayed 30 minutes) hot tube thing a normal type thing? To my recollection, this was the first time she wanted to bolt out after being home at this hour.

I am not stressing & have pretty much put this particular incident behind me; (And I don’t want to get into a pity party!), but I believe it makes for some interesting considerations, because I do believe similar things will be coming around the corner & I am just trying to be better prepared to handle them in the best way.

This attitude does bring back some memories of things that were happening in the months leading up to the last D/Day (01/17/01). She had become involved in a new church that her boss attended and they met in the mall where they work in fact. The young Pastor (34-36) had asked her(my DW) to head up a high school acting group. They met on Thursday evenings from 7:00 to 9:00. They were planning overnight, weekend trips to compete or participate in acting performances. Remember, I teach a high School Sunday school class & announce Basket ball for the local high school, so I am used to interacting with teens. But I was not invited to go along on these trips. There was a time when she called after an evening session and said the Pastor, another leader & the kids were going out for a bite to eat – she was home before 11:00 (so was not bad!). There was an overnight sleep over, lock in for this church high school group, again, I was not invited or welcome (HMMM!) She ended up passing on this and they cancelled the event. Also, she was really pressing taking Snow Skiing lessons which was an hour and a half away and she was promoting the idea that after the lessons they had great deal on evening skiing.

This need for independence actually began to intensify shortly after she attended a Christian based seminar for women where the focus was more or less on FOO issues and It was titled something like “Roots of Despair” – The idea was to fill some voids with the blessings of our Lord. This was in November of 2000. This was when she told me that in a break out group she received support (more or less) for her feelings of unfullfillment or something like that, because she was married at such a young age and had raised the children and all – And this was magnified for me when she expressed the thought that she understood exactly how her younger divorced cousin (who was raised from 13 by her parents) felt in seeking a divorce, that she just wanted more freedom. She had an A and that during separation and after the D, they would visit for congical visitations. This was when I first heard those infamous words that her cousin loved her H, but was not “In Love” with him. BTW, within a few months of the D being final she started dating a guy she knew from her pool playing and he wants a monogamous relationship (DAh!) and although she seems to going along with this for now, she evidently has still expressed this need for independence (my DW’s cousin).
Expressing these feelings made for a great back drop to seeking all these “independent activities.” Even then, before I had heard of any marital recovery strategies, and with the ski lessons, I pointed out to her how this sounded to me & all her apparent need for “independent” activities, that I though we need to think of some joint activities – I suggested dance lessons – of course this was ridiculous to her.

I am open for inexpensive joint activity idea!

It is also interesting that last summer I was again trying to suggest little joint things, like walking the dog together on this trial through the woods, in a park close to our home. She always got home 30 to 40 minutes before me and made it a point to out with the dog before I got home. This became an issue in couples counseling. My DW was upset I was trying to do this. She made a big fuss about how she needed that time “alone” Our counselor said for me to back off & for her to come up with joint activities – It never happened. In fact then she invited her girlfriend to join her for the walks. Several months later, the kennel person we take our dog to, suggested taking our dog to a large fenced in area in a neighboring community . I said that is great, why don’t we do that. My DW said it was not something she wanted to do over the week end – it was like a special thing for her to do on her days off during the week I guess. To my knowledge, she never did that.

I have tired the 180 thing & it does seem to work, in part. I do believe it does lead to her liking, as she employs similar thing – Tit for tat kind of thing. Now, it is curious that last Wednesday, my best friend & I went golfing (my DW works ‘til 9:00 get home around 9:20 PM & his W visits her mom). My DW asked if we were playing & I said no, then he called & we went after all. Well I get home at around 9:45 & shortly thereafter I get a call from my DW. She said she got home & I was not there, so she went to a couple places me & my friend go – she said she was hungry and wanted to hook up with us. She was calling from the grocery and here again, she ends up home, after me. HUGH 180 Plan ruined!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I go on, sorry!

She made funny comment when we were battling over her leaving @ 9:00 for hot tube—I was telling her that she has very little accountability; that I go with her whishes & do not call her(during the day), as she prefers. She said, “Yes, but you think about it!” <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I called her on my home from an appointment yesterday and we met at a small sports bar for wings & then went to sporting goods store to get me some water, rafting type shoes –ended up the same kind she got earlier. She did her gazing around the bar, but I maintained a cool head and there were no incidences. We had a good time.

We were talking about the rafting and she expresses the thought that she is happy we can do it, cause it is something she has wanted to do for a long time. I mentioned that we talked with people at the party we attended on Friday & other people has expressed a non-desire, skepticism about such activities and she started to get defensive & I added, I was not trying to make an issue, but I was not the only one to be hesitant about such things.
I also mentioned a friend of mine I was talking to about this (my unofficial sponsor at S-anon) that he used to like kiacking & he & his W went canoeing, but that she id not really like it, so he gave it up – well, you know she jumped on that, saying “He should not have given it up.” I replied that I think he wanted to do more things as a couple – she re-stated that he should not have given it up – I said I did not want to make this a debate or a teaching point, let’s drop it & we did! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

It is interesting my best friend got this CD for Father’s day in which his D burned several different types of songs. One in which we are all making a joke about as being cool and all is a country song by the name of "I’m Going to Miss that Girl" (or something like that). It is about a guy who loves to fish & is gone all the time fishing & his W finally lays down the law; if he’s not back by noon, she is leaving. It is obvious a satirical, comical tone – My DW is telling our D, who’s Fiancée to get this song, it is so funny and all. Do you think there could be a meaningful message in this song? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I don’t think my DW gets it. I could be guilty in the past with neglect in favor of the golf game & she would sometimes make some waives, but since D/Day I have curtailed a lot! And this is why she says she does not care that much when I go out – it’s because I don’t go nearly as much.

Looking forward to D’s visit & my DW does seem to be chilling as well! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Just so you know, I have intellectually understood for a while now, actually, that I have to learn to “Play the Game” I do get confused as to exactly what game I need to play. I do realize that I cannot expect a lot of things just because we have been married for 31 + years. Like for her to like me or be honest or be loyal with feelings. I have stated that it would be nice if she earned her trust from me, instead she demands it. I on the other hand, I cannot demand her to act like a loving W – like so many have said, she has to feel like it.

I have read the Dobson book & agree with it’s concepts – I don’t always practice them, but I understand that in a sense I have to act as if I am not married to her, but in a dating stage & I need to strike that happy balance of meeting her needs –plan A things & creating some mystic or independence where I am not to be taken advantage of or taken for granted – where I am not always the pursuer – the 180 thing –

I know that I am not appealing & she will not be motivated to be with me if I try & appeal to her sense of feeling guilty or sorry for me – self pity is not an attractive style!

And BTW, I do enjoy the S** - I know that I may be a purest to ask for some love to go along with it, but I don’t want to seem like a total cry baby here – I also know that the S** part is not a long term solution to marital bliss – Even though I can make it last 45 minutes or so <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> There are still a few more hours in the day to fill!! It is is not a lifetime!

So you know, I am paying a little more attention to my body – it is on the feeble side, but I have been exercising more & tanning -- both things that she likes – as you may have guessed! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thought I would surprise you with a somewhat upbeat post! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I am defiantly going with the chill pill approach for now! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I do feel I have to work at not being a doormat. This, I believe is my biggest challenge! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
HH

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Hurrian Hoosier:
<strong>I know that I am not appealing
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did you mean to say this as in fact you believe you aren't appealing? I hope I mis-read it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by TinyDancer:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Hurrian Hoosier:
<strong>I know that I am not appealing
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did you mean to say this as in fact you believe you aren't appealing? I hope I mis-read it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TD,
To elloborate a bit.
I meant that I understand that I am not appealing to her if I am always complaining to her & trying to make her feel guilty or try to force her to like me because she is married to me -- or direct her to do certain things she does really want to do as signs of her caring about me, for example. That I have to put more effort into doing things that she will find appealing. To not expect her, or ask her to like me out of an obligation.
If I try to put myself in her shoes &
when I think about it, this is kind of weird, but perhaps a touch of reality, that perhaps I put too much faith into marriage vows of 31 + years ago & I honestly think she had (has?) in her mind that becasue we "had" to get married, that these vows really don't mean that much. When you think about it, people do change & if a person really does not care about another and is unhappy, why wouldn't they follow through with a temptation presented to them to have A's?
At this stage at least, she is not of the mind to examine (with me at least) in any great details of why she did what she did (particularily now, as some time has elasped since d-day) and explore creative ways to improve our relationship -- It is like in her mind there is absoulutely no outside information she can gain (or more importantly -WE) or that she is even interested in examining to help in this regards -- she does not want to read any articles, let alone a book (she openly critizes those thoughts & discounts those ideas as being ridiculous & will infer that people that like that kind of thing are weird!) and counseling proved useless & why throw that money down the drain.
So, I will persist on my own accord -- try to do my best at least.
Peace,
HH

<small>[ July 03, 2002, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: Hurrian Hoosier ]</small>

This sounds so similar to how my WW acted before she moved out and wanted to act single. She only thought I was controlling when she was hiding something. Then on times when she wanted to work on marriage, she didn't have a problem with me wanting to spend time with her. But, she would change her mind and start accusing me of being controlling again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by StillCan'tBelieveIt:
<strong>This sounds so similar to how my WW acted before she moved out and wanted to act single. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is truely amazing --
I want to express my concern for your situation. As I am sure others have said, but I have to keep reminding myself as well, ... these things are a lot more about "their" issues and problems, than about us.
Our respective S's actions I believe are a lot more about their own perceived preferences & not a direct attack on us, although, I undertstand all too well, we cannot help but feel the blunt and pain as a direct attack on us!
Very confusing at times, but we will survive!
Best of luck to you.
My Prayers are with you!
HH

To lighten the mood a little...the first thing that flashed through my head:

"What? Mrs HH in JAIL? What for? Indecent exposure?" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />