Kind of wondering about this... by now, I think WW must have said something to her parents... I have no solid proof of such, but I know IC/MC has likely encouraged her to tell them something - I'm not living there, and haven't been for nearly a month, after all!!!

Anyhow, if we assume that a) she doesn't tell them she's having an A, b) she says "we grew apart" or some such horse puckey, c) they try to be "supportive" of her... does that mean they're enabling the A?

I'd like to think this... that it might be good in that it take yet more pressure off of her... and it's the pressure that's making her mind buzz so much, kind of like H4F described her mental state. If she can start thinking more CLEARLY, and can start seeing a future with OM, completely devoid of me... that might be good?? Maybe??

My family was completely supportive of whatever decision I made...but I also knew they really like my hubby and wanted to see us work things out. Telling my family really didn't make things "easier" so much as it made it all more real. Reality is DEFINATLY a good thing. Can they become enablers? Well, anyone can...but I had a bevy of enablers...and I still managed to figure it out.

It's the reality that will really get her in the end...not what everyone else says or does.

That's just what I wanted to hear, H4F <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I know she's avoided saying something for so long... because it IS reality.

How did reality "FEEL" to you? I mean, was there a sense of realness that affected not just your thinking, but your FEELINGS? Did your feelings rebel?

I also like to think this... now that I'm gone, WW has nowhere to direct her anger about me... well, she can still stew to herself - but that just must grow tiring after a while, or something, no? I mean, doesn't there come a time when you realize it just isn't doing you any good to remain angry and bitter about a past that you want to believe was terrible, yet know in your heart wasn't all THAT bad?

I think in her telling her parents, she'd have to be very careful. If she slams me, she's taking away one of her two choice dilemma options - having a happy future family life with me - her turning her parents on me might make her feel better in the short-term, but she's never been keen on doing such things to me, even at the height of this. If she defends me, she makes herself look bad - to everyone. So I would imagine she's rehearsed and had help from IC/MC.

FWIW, I dropped my letter to my parents in the mail today. I shortened it a bit, was a bit more direct, but stopped short of mentioning the A.

Another question H4F, who in your family knew about the A? If any, how did they find out? I'm just curious.

What other things would you say brought reality, along the level of family becoming aware? Anything big, besides the divorce itself?

I'm sure looking forward to my trip, starting Friday. It'll be a little mini-adventure. I moved over to a new project at work today, and I get to work with a fellow Canuck - who happened to live on Vancouver Island for over 20 years - that's where I'm going. I'm leaving a short note for my "housekeeper" - WW - letting her know roughly where I am in case of emergency... Might make her wonder, me going off back to the "homeland" LOL... One of our big adventures was a drive to Vancouver Island years ago.

Another piece of reality I hope is starting to become apparent: that if she stays stuck on OM, it's not like they're going to be able to start being "out in the open"... very, very early on in this, she thought she could get away with a month of separation before dating him... well, she could try that, but I think she must realize that people would frown big-time - everyone knows she's married. That was some major fog from the past that now has some basis for clearing.

I'm kind of rambling here, but I've got a few minutes and some random thoughts...

J.R. - I hope that hope4future is right.

I have seen after spending much time in this forum, that ILs who do not approve of the A really do have an impact on the WS, and many times it's their disapproval that helps lead the WS out of the fog.

However, my personal experience has been that my IL's - although disapproved of A, loved WS more than they disapproved of him and basically said they we're happy with decision, but would support WS with whatever decision he made - thereby enabling in my book - and then ILs continued to support WH by allowing him to live in their house(I think they wer eafraid of WS being mad at them and leaving them too) and by welcoming OW into their house.

After awhile it was like they'd do anything just to not rock the boat. Also, everyone in their family has been divorced - and many have married the OS when there was one, so it's no big deal. They are also known for enabling each other - they call it taking care of family, but it's enabling nonetheless.

So hopefully your IL's don't have a history of enabling as mine did. It would really help if they didn't.

Trying not to be negative - just wanting to give you another view point.

K

GIC,

Thanks for your perspective... I think my IL's would be supportive of the thought that WW and I are spending some time apart with the intention of coming back together at some time... I think they'd be HORRIFIED at the thought that WW is having an A. There is NO history of divorce in their spheres, and both our families have strong family values.

My thought is this... I hope WW realizes something... that if she stays with OM and some day brings him into IL's home... there will be yet one more LIE sitting on the table... a lie by omission... i.e. that HE was a key ingredient in making things fall apart, not us "growing apart" - even though there is some truth in it, it takes two to grow apart... the reality is she was pulling away while meeting my most important EN's...

I'm optimistic that reality in this case will help. I don't think she'll find any support in that household for bashing me in any way.

"How did reality "FEEL" to you? I mean, was there a sense of realness that affected not just your thinking, but your FEELINGS? Did your feelings rebel?"

It was extremely depressing telling my family. I guess I envisioned "oh you poor baby, you just get rid of that mean man" back patting type support....and instead I got "wow, I am so sorry it's come to this, I really hope you guys can work it out, but we're here for you if you need us and we'll support whatever decision you make". Wake up call for me.

The word divorce is such a commonly used, thrown all around kind of word...but dang...coming from a relatives mouth in reguards to YOU...it's a pretty heavy thing. It's kind of like when kids tell you they don't like you anymore and they're NOT going to be your friend. It's just not that big of a deal because they know tomorrow, or the next day, you'll make up and be friends again. But DV....wow...that's a bit deeper. Didn't seem like it though, until it was a reality.

My grandmother was NOT happy! She was furious! She said "Thank god your grandfather isn't around to have to hear this!" and basically barely spoke to me the rest of the visit. Ouch, that hurt quite a bit. BIG dose of reality. The only one in my family who knew I had feelings for someone else was my Aunt (we've always been very close, I told her in chat). She also was supportive in whatever decision I made...but she was/is also in a very unfulfilling, distant, troubled marriage herself. I used her as my "example" for WHY I was going to start over before it was too late and I'd be in her situation.

It wasn't just family's reaction, though. Once hubby and I actually got the divorce on its way I had to start letting people in the community know. People I work with etc... They were all under the impression that I was living in the big beautiful new house on the hill that hubby and I built after the tornado. I slowly started to let them know I didn't live there. Some were just apologetic and surprised...but some talked to me quite a bit about it. NOT ONE person was pro-divorce. I expected SOMEONE to be for a divorce...not one. Slowly the seriousness of what a divorce really signified seeped in.

Plus, hubby didn't make one effort towards the divorce. If I wanted it, I was going to have to do the work. I didn't want to...I drug my feet...I didn't want the responsibility for something so major. It's a good thing I had it though...woke me up.

"I mean, doesn't there come a time when you realize it just isn't doing you any good to remain angry and bitter about a past that you want to believe was terrible, yet know in your heart wasn't all THAT bad?"

Yes, absolutely. With time and space you start to hear the arguing in your head for what it is...justification. The "other" side starts to present itself and you can actually see it because it's not coming from an external source trying to "convince" you. It's coming from inside.

"I think in her telling her parents, she'd have to be very careful."

I don't think it would look good on her part, either, to walk in and rant about how terrible her hubby was to her and how glad she is to have dumped you. For one thing...neither is true....for the other thing, she doesn't want to appear eager. She'd give herself away. But...I doubt very much she is eager....otherwise why would she have wasted her time and energy trying to give you such a whiz bang sendoff?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

"What other things would you say brought reality, along the level of family becoming aware? Anything big, besides the divorce itself?"

Pretty much what I said above. Family, friends, community members whom I respected, neighbors. Some supported and practically talked me in to what I was doing...and others were saddened by the news and wished us all the best in our future. EVERYONE was happy for us when we got back together. Also, the reality of living by myself, taking care of myself. Not just for a month or two...but for a year. Hubby helped me at first, but I didn't want ANYONES help so I weaned myself away from needing his support. I wanted to do it on my own...and I did, and it sucked. LOL! Like I said before...reminded me of some of the ammenities of marriage I'd previously written off as minor.

"Another piece of reality I hope is starting to become apparent: that if she stays stuck on OM, it's not like they're going to be able to start being "out in the open""

That IS a major piece of reality. In your situation the "down time" would still be much smaller than it would have been for me. Had I actually gotten the divorce and if OM had still been interested...it still would have been a long time before we would have been ok to be seen in public...and even then, it always would have been suspect. I'm sure it is now. Hubby and OM were friends...OM used to hang with us quite a bit. Now you never see all 3 of us, or even the 2 of them, in the same place at the same time. It'd be pretty hard not to know that something happend.

No matter what! No matter who knows and who doesn't. No matter who's fooled and who suspects. No matter who's supportive and who's not. She knows. She knows the truth and will NOT be able to escape it. I could justify all I wanted...I knew better. My own mind punished me greatly for my foolishness. Why do you think A's don't have the easy, happily ever after endings that everyone thinks they will? Because they have to live with themselves after the fantasy bites the dust.

>>> It's a good thing I had it though...woke me up. <<<

Right now I have no intention of giving her any help with a Dv... She's barely ever mentioned it to me. Once when I did, she was like "I don't want to talk about it."

I'd like to leave it for her indefinitely, but I realize I can't do that practically - I need to get on with things eventually, find someone else, have kids, etc., etc.

I just know that this whole "moving home" concept is going to prey on my brain more and more...

>>> With time and space you start to hear the arguing in your head for what it is...justification. <<<

The very scary thing is she ALREADY knows this, and has admitted it to me at times... YET DOES NOTHING ABOUT IT!! How long did it take you to transition from listening to those voices of reason to acting on them... and in the end, it seems it wasn't those actual voices of reason, but the pressure of the impending Dv... right?

>>> I doubt very much she is eager....otherwise why would she have wasted her time and energy trying to give you such a whiz bang sendoff?? <<<

Well, I'd like to think it's because she love me, but sadly, I now think it was just to try and keep me from leaving... I could be wrong...

>>> In your situation the "down time" would still be much smaller than it would have been for me. <<<

I don't think we can underestimate the down time for us too... Here in CA it takes 6 months to complete the Dv process, I believe. All she's got to do is be out in the open with him within a few months of revealing to co-workers, etc. - and then I think rumors would start, etc. She works with a lot of young single people, and I don't know their take on things. She doesn't have a lot of really close friends right now, given that we're relatively new to the area... Her closest friend her is married and committed to her marriage despite some challenges - so that's good I guess. And in terms of family... I think they'd put 2 and 2 together pretty quickly if she showed signs of dating before a good period after Dv finalization.

And it's interesting too because OM is Korean... and WW admitted early on that the Korean community as a whole - where they are at least, not to pass judgments - likes to gossip, etc. And so a Dv white early 30's woman walking into this guy's life - friends, church, etc. - would be a big deal. These kinds of things made her pause before - makes her hesitate - but she's not willing to stop because of them.

J.R.:

">>> I doubt very much she is eager....otherwise why would she have wasted her time and energy trying to give you such a whiz bang sendoff?? <<<
Well, I'd like to think it's because she love me, but sadly, I now think it was just to try and keep me from leaving... I could be wrong..."

J.R., think about this. Of course she did it because she loves you. She also did it to keep you from leaving. If she didn't love you, though, she could certainly have gotten SF from her OM. She didn't "need it" from you.

She loves you, man.

My parents don't know about my affair and never will, my H and I decided this together. However, my brother had an affair and he moved back home for a few months. Even though my parents loved my sil I heard them siding with my brother because they were only hearing his side of the story. And face it folks, blood is thicker than water. My parents told my brother they would stand behind him whatever he decides. Granted they didn't like it he cheated on my sil, but he is their son. My brother and sil's marriage ended in divorce. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

RW

2L,

I hear ya, but today at least, I'm not feeling the love. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Naw, I think she was more afraid than anything... I think she has a difficult time even understanding what real love is, too. They say you can love others only as much as you can love yourself... and she sure doesn't love herself. She hates herself. And she's being driven by a selfish demon, as best I can tell. So I do believe it's possible her motivations in SF with me were not altruistic. Maybe just a selfish desire to keep me from leaving, destroying her wonderful 2-choice dilemma she'd so carefully constructed.

I don't know... I want to believe you... If the M is saved, I don't know if we can trace it back to love - more likely OM falling on his face.

Rob's Wife: Yeah, I don't think she was about to admit to her A to her parents... but we had to say SOMETHING... it's been a month apart now with no signs of change (at least that I can see - which isn't much, admittedly). And when my folks started talking about coming down for a visit... oh boy... time to come clean at least about the separation.

<small>[ July 02, 2002, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: J.R. ]</small>

JR ~ here's my take:

Her parents are NOT enablers, you are!

My definition of enabling is when we create a comfortable environment for unacceptable behavior.

The gist of this thread and other threads that you have posted is that you haven't spilled the beans to parents on either side, and neither has she.

So her parents have NO IDEA that they are making it comfortable for her to carry on her affair. Why? Because you haven't told - out of fear of LBing her, and she hasn't told, because of fear of their reaction.

Sounds to me that if they knew, her life would instantly become alot more uncomfortable...

Fear is always the worst motivation for decision making.

Hi BR,

Hmmm... I see your point, but I wonder what can come of say telling my parents that she's having an A. If they're going to keep in between them and me, then it wouldn't do much other than help explain things a bit more, and I'm fine with doing that progressively.

If her parents do talk to me any time soon, I'd be willing to be open and honest - even to admitting that she's having an A... But I don't see my making efforts to contact them and crying "affair! affair!" would have anything in it for me. I do doubt they'd try to contact me... WW has probably told them "we're just spending some time apart, so don't worry about it." It comes down to who tell who what - and the general feel I got from SH and IC/MC was to let her tell hers, and for me to tell mine.

I do wonder, though, about how I could change things, so as you say, I'm not enabling in any way... Thoughts?

Actually, 2long...I think her sleeping with him was probably more so to try to regain control over the situation (mainly over JR) to ensure all options remained open. I'm not saying she DOESN'T love him...just that I doubt very much that was her main motivation. I think she's still very much in the fog and confused...and I think I agree with you JR...her idea of love is probably rather distorted right now. She can learn...but only if she decides to.

h4f, J.R.:

I actually had a similar conversation with my IC this afternoon about my W's behavior this Sunday evening (BEST SF I'VE HAD WITH HER IN A LONG TIME, plus, she actually said she's HAPPY, for the first time in probably 12 years!). All that after an argument that made me feel the worst I've felt since D-day. My IC pointed out that she's expressing very different, conflicting emotions right now, because OMW's H was tossed out on his rear by OMW, and so he's trolling for my W. So, I'm focusing on my good plan A again!

I can't very well expect her to stop being a b****, if I can't stop being a Bass turd. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Sorry for the digression from J.R.'s thread. I didn't mean to do it!

Hi JR,

Well every situation is different and I do agree that going thru the effort to contact them and "tell" on her will seem like a low blow to her.

I think what you do is get really honest with your own folks, and then take it from there. If you do talk to her folks, again, get really honest. If they don't - its probably ok, especially if SH didn't think you should tell them directly. Just don't protect her anymore - all you do is enable her fantasy!

Just don't call them enablers unless they know what is going on truthfully and are making it easy on her.

I get the feeling from your description that they would be deeply hurt and dismayed at their daughter's behavior. I know my inlaws were.

Affairs don't just affect the spouses involved, and thats why I am such an advocate for being open with family members.