Bump for feedback; meeting WW's ENs & reducing LBs

Space,

I am probably making a statement of the obvious; but she's not opening up with her questionnaires. SH will probably bust her for this. Has he seen them; or have you had a meeting with them since you've discussed them?

SH made H go back and flesh-out #3 on his recovery plan, saying it wasn't enough. Your W could stand to be more open. What's she afraid of you think? CSue

CSue; I think she's afraid of facing the fact that she has neglected me as much or more than she says I've neglected her, she's afraid of recognizing the progress I've made in our R as it "destroys" the many justifications she's built for herself in order to carry on her A, and she's afraid of the fact that if we talk, really talk, she will either make a mistake and expose her A or she'll have to talk about it.

She's afraid of many things. At this point I think the ONLY thing she is not afraid of is losing me. I believe she does not imagine I'd leave...

Hi Spacey.. by far.. I should of had an affair.. almost did a few times... but family and marriage is way too important to me.. and I meant my vows... and did not even want a way out...

Now I know I lb'd... told H I would divorce him if ... he did not go back to school... did not act more responsible... did not behave better... less driniking- I made the man drink and esp. smoke outside.. now some drinking was inside.. but I honestly think out of shame he drank in the backyard.. and in the front , embarassing to me... he threw the dang ciggs all over the yard... I have issues with this! and etc. etc.

I was tough.. because he was like a bad teenager, still is. So , why do I even care... I wanted my family to work and I was trying to get him to be what he promised.. a husband and a father. Well... no party boy... never stops... !

Anyway, I know what you mean about the me / I should of had the A. These affair having spouses... are so self centered! It only seems they would have troulbe taking care of our needs.. right... I mean all WS types... I just think having an A is the point of total selfishness when you are married with kids... ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> It makes me ill, that someone I thought loved and adored me would do this crap.. I could live with the alcoholic issues and irresponsibility , but this? And all this I hate you , get away stuff... when I try to work things out after finding out I have been betrayed beyond belief...

Today in my gbetter state of mind... I am starting to think this man may not ever be allowed back home... we may be better off without him, and I mean far better... it is sad..b ut I have just started to come out of my I Love HIM>.. illusion... he is mean, cruel and self centered.. and does not even want a good life for our kids.. he thinks having some fun and no money is oK for them... I want good neighborhood.... we are in an ok one... I want a better one- I mentioned that to my "husband" the other day .. how he is keeping us from moving ahead in life.. bigger house, nicer neigh. and better things for boys.. and he just laughed. saying.. your house is 3 x bigger than mine.. not quite true..b ut of course it is nicer than the party house he lives in right now! in the heights.. now heights are ok,.. but I have a certain bit of high blood pressure when I think aobut the party people there. and the neighborhood- mind you I had good friends there in my 20s but it is not where you think about raising your kids... and sending them to public shcool... and we by no means have the priv. school budget right now... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Now this man promised me he was going to law school when I married him at 23, guess what he never finished college!

It does have a lot to do .. in that they feel less than..... like they dont live up to us.. the bs... so they are looking for other less thans.. who are even more less than to worship them and admire.. them... Granted when I was soooo in love... I thought my husband was the greatest guy on this green earth.. but then I learned that he would lie to me... not meet goals he promised to meet.. be irresponsible... lie, and drink and drink and drink, and lie... ok, lose gjobs... ok, cheat, cheat and cheat... lie some more... eetc.

I am so tired... ! of trying to wait for him to be who he sd he would be...

Thanks for being here.. sorry to vent on your post.. it just got the best of me. Hope your sat. is well.. and sorry both of our spouses.. are not with the program! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I know they both promised to be for life! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

HONEY

Spcaecase,

There have been some very good sugesstions so far. Some books that came to mind reading the posts that may give you further insite.

You may have already read these (Lord knows my library is huge) Mar & Venus in lasting love (or something like that) This one gave me insite as to the differences between males & females (and I thought it was just my h !) and some concrete solutions.

The other is the 5 languages of love. To me, this complements MB and gives further insite into EN's from a different perspective.

Spacecase, keep up the good work ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ July 06, 2002, 09:56 PM: Message edited by: WillGetThruThis ]</small>

Dear Spacecase,
Haven't been posting much, but lurking on your thread as best I can -

For what it's worth - v interesting that she is not able to really find much fault with you - like CSue said - see if Steve doesn't buy this first try of hers and asks her to try to flesh it out.

And what Lyxa said about projecting - I have also had this with my H - its like he wants to feel something - say, anger, so he manipulates me into an argument and I get mad, then he can get mad back at me, so he can now feel mad legitimately - he can't own his own feelings, so he gets me to feel what he wants to feel, then he can say it's me whose doing it. A little wierd.

What immediately struck me, like WGTT said, is the communication differences - you seem to think you are communicating well and can't improve on this - she is obviously finding it hard to communicate with you - first, you have a long M behind you and you have built up patterns and expectations which you have to take into account. She lists the "screaming" at her as her no. 1 LB - you admit that you still do this from time to time, but justify yourself by saying that now this is due to frustration with her lies and deception. Believe me, I can totally relate to this and sympathize with you - I ALSO fought with my H and have justified my angry outbursts as "standing up to his bullying and not letting myself be pushed around" - so I have done a hefty amount of screaming at him (my rationale was that the best defense was a good offense in the face of intimidation) - OK so this is a different issue - BUT - you have, at least in her mind, blown up a lot at her. She's telling you she can't handle this, whatever the reason, and that she's afraid of you when you do this. If she's afraid of you, she is going to find it really hard to talk to you, to open up.

My first thought was have you read the book WGTT mentioned - it's called "Mars and Venus - Together Forever - Communication Skills for a Lasting Marriage" by John Gray. A lot of what you say she does and says sounds like it is taken verbatim from this book - REALLY - and if you read it in detail and take it on board, you may be able to "read" her differently. Although you are doing your A-1 best to communicate with her in the best way you know how, you have to accept that she communicates differently - you have to learn her language and then approach her differently. Although she may still be hiding stuff, this is not the only cause of why she is reacting the way she is. She may have a lot she wants to say to you but is too afraid to do so - she may be looking for signs in you that tell her it is safe for her to tell you things she knows you will find difficult.

I'm not saying you could do things better - you have made a superhuman effort to try to save your marriage - but I think the information you get from this book could give you another piece of information you could work with - like adding another tool to your toolbox. Guys always like more and better tools, don't they?
And filling out these questionnaires is helping to pinpoint that communication is a difficulty for you.

Does this make sense? So if you can stomach reading another book - make it this one - go out and buy that power drill and start drilling holes in her defences - she will be totally surprised once you start communicating with her differently - it may take her awhile to trust that some of your changes are real - but persevere - it's not likely her friend in prison would take the time to read this book to try to learn how to communicate with her better, is it?

Hope this helps.

Odile

P.S. When I said "...pinpoint that communication is a difficulty for you." I meant "...pinpoint that communication styles are a difficulty in your relationship." - not you personally, Spacecase - sorry - that came out wrong!

Odile

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by odile:
<strong>Dear Spacecase,
Haven't been posting much, but lurking on your thread as best I can -

For what it's worth - v interesting that she is not able to really find much fault with you - like CSue said - see if Steve doesn't buy this first try of hers and asks her to try to flesh it out.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi O! Long time no hear from you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Definitely. Steve will have something to say about that for sure.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And what Lyxa said about projecting - I have also had this with my H - its like he wants to feel something - say, anger, so he manipulates me into an argument and I get mad, then he can get mad back at me, so he can now feel mad legitimately - he can't own his own feelings, so he gets me to feel what he wants to feel, then he can say it's me whose doing it. A little wierd.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It IS weird, and it seems I'm NOT crazy for thinking it's only my W that does it!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What immediately struck me, like WGTT said, is the communication differences - you seem to think you are communicating well and can't improve on this - she is obviously finding it hard to communicate with you - first, you have a long M behind you and you have built up patterns and expectations which you have to take into account. She lists the "screaming" at her as her no. 1 LB - you admit that you still do this from time to time, but justify yourself by saying that now this is due to frustration with her lies and deception. Believe me, I can totally relate to this and sympathize with you - I ALSO fought with my H and have justified my angry outbursts as "standing up to his bullying and not letting myself be pushed around" - so I have done a hefty amount of screaming at him (my rationale was that the best defense was a good offense in the face of intimidation) - OK so this is a different issue - BUT - you have, at least in her mind, blown up a lot at her. She's telling you she can't handle this, whatever the reason, and that she's afraid of you when you do this. If she's afraid of you, she is going to find it really hard to talk to you, to open up.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree. And by the way, I don't think our communication is fine, I KNOW there are serious problems there. It just feels like the buttons are too close to the surface, and they seem to get pushed easily and frequently. I have definitely stopped the screaming...it's been months!
Not that I've lost all my "enthusiasm", I haven't. But It's improved trmendously.
She also does the same things...that angry self-righteousness that drives me nuts! I don't get scared, but it definitely dampens my desire for bringing difficult subjects up. And it exhasperates me when we DO talk...so we both push each others' buttons for sure!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My first thought was have you read the book WGTT mentioned - it's called "Mars and Venus - Together Forever - Communication Skills for a Lasting Marriage" by John Gray. A lot of what you say she does and says sounds like it is taken verbatim from this book - REALLY - and if you read it in detail and take it on board, you may be able to "read" her differently. Although you are doing your A-1 best to communicate with her in the best way you know how, you have to accept that she communicates differently - you have to learn her language and then approach her differently. Although she may still be hiding stuff, this is not the only cause of why she is reacting the way she is. She may have a lot she wants to say to you but is too afraid to do so - she may be looking for signs in you that tell her it is safe for her to tell you things she knows you will find difficult.

I'm not saying you could do things better - you have made a superhuman effort to try to save your marriage - but I think the information you get from this book could give you another piece of information you could work with - like adding another tool to your toolbox. Guys always like more and better tools, don't they?
And filling out these questionnaires is helping to pinpoint that communication is a difficulty for you. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I'll get this one. WGTT (Thanks!) also recommended it...every little bit helps!

If you get a chance, I posted about a conversation W and I had today on my other thread...would like comments. Thanks again, O!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by odile:
<strong>P.S. When I said "...pinpoint that communication is a difficulty for you." I meant "...pinpoint that communication styles are a difficulty in your relationship." - not you personally, Spacecase - sorry - that came out wrong!

Odile</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No offense taken at all! I understood what you meant. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />