</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by dreamland:
<strong>Alostwife,

5) I am scared of Plan B. This is very real. I am terrified that Plan B = Plan D.

6) Many people out there are still dealing with their Plan A many many more months than I have. The only difference between mine and theirs is that she is being honest with me about her feelings and about what she is doing and planning to do. Honesty is a good quality, and can not be ignored in this equation.

... I am willing to deal with the pain for a while in order to be with her forever.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dreamland,
I feel compelled to continue to reply, in part because I have similar feelings at times & I know that it is very difficult to be objective about our own situtation. Understand, it is a lot easy to suggest what others should do!
And most importanty, we are mere mortals here & not counselors, of course.
Your W probablly has a good sense that you are willing to put up with almost anything to avoid the big D -- she is in a very selfish mode right now & so she is not really considering your feelings at all - right now at least! If you are like me, you may asume that most people think as you do -- this has been hard for me, but please realize, some people are strickly takers -- where do you draw the line?

Please, read the Dobson book. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I do believe that the spirit of the policy of openness & radical honesty is to share struggles & temptations (on the negative side), but that the overall intent is that you are working together on a specific plan of recovery. These confessions of loving feeling for the other person, IMHO would fall into the category of further Discoveries & direct dis-respect for your feelings and put in great jeoprdy any sense of security for you in a monagomous relationship. This by many standards could be considered "mean spirited!" I don't believe that is the intent of any of the MB Principles <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
You have ben very tolerant & patient & you want to provide a safe place for her to recover & it is a good sign in a way I suppose that she is being open in this way, but I don't know if I would classify it as being open and honest -- as I understand it, she confessed a lot of these lingering feelings after she was busted and after she said it was over, right? To me these may be more her way of justifing this bad behaviorar -almost like she cannot help herself, this love is so overpowering she could not resit temptation kind of story - <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> No matter the tone, the context of this message is a big negative!
I have not experienced this policy of openness & honesty myself, but I hope it is more in the spirit of a caring person, trying hard to overcome some betrayal issues & coming to grips with some struggles, but the focus is on the positive recovery path -- her "openness" seems to be somewhat selfish & punishing! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
She seems very adapt at expressing her feelings and all -- is she at all open to listenig to how you feel about these things - is she willing to recipricate this openess in reverse?
Hang in there -- keep positive attitude, but try & think about your feelings & what is fair --
Dobson's book sites example of where the WS has been very explicit about their feeling of wanting out, yet with reality of losing S, turned on a dime & changed their tune completely -- no guarantees no mattter what we do. I truely believe that the "doormat" method is the least effective ... for most situation at least --

Please understand I am pulling for you!
Prayers are with you!
HH

Dreamland -

I don't have much time today (WW is at home), so I'll make a couple of quick points.

First, I think Just Learnings comments are right on target. This doesn't mean to go to plan B right now but keep your finger on the pulse and do it when the time id right (only you will know this).

Second, although she may be leaning on you and using you as a friend, she is giving little in return. This is not a real friendship, just MHO.

Third, the A will die when its time has come. Even if OM doesn't call for a few weeks, what is to stop your WW from calling him. I guess JL put it best when he said the scales need to tip in the negative direction for this one to end.

Cheers and hang in there.

Dreamland,
I had another thought ... then I'll give it a rest!
It is totally unfair for us(or me!) to project to you how you should feel, so if you truely don't mind how she acts, then that is you, but I have a hunch you really don't like her doing these things and it is dis-respectful.
For you to take a firmer stand & specifically tell her that you do not approve & that you will in fact take what ever steps are necessary, she will not doubt get upset. I have an hunch that she knows that you don't like that & that is how she gets what she wants so much (that is SOP with me & my W). Think about this, would she put up with you acting this way? SHe could very well be telling herself that you are a fool for letting her get away with this & this could add further justification to her action & convince her that she is justified in not respecting you.
Taking a firm stand is a risk -- continuing with current course of action is a risk as well.
I suggest you take a knee & pray to your higher power. Pray for guidenace as to what is best for you, your children & your W.
Your W is out of control & is not being rational, caught up in a zone - a zone focused on herself. She needs a strong person, like yourself to bring her out this -- she may fight & scream otherwise, but she knows she is not being fair to you!
Peace,
HH

Spacecase,

I probably am just crazy. Maybe that is what is wrong with me. How else can you explain calmness at a time like that and any of my understanding. Maybe I need to check into a pshyco ward.

I think Plan B is all about timing. Plan B at a time when the A is on its final bounce is probably bad timing. If however they kick it off for good again (more than just a few days) then I think Plan B is the right choice. However, I have a plan and a date in mind. For me, I need to continue my path and be steadfast. I need to know that I gave our marriage everything I gave it the time I think is required for these things.

I think that many of the WS think the same thing my WW is thinking. No feelings for BS, do not really want to try recovery, do not want to be with BS, wants only WW. AM I RIGHT!!! WS's - AM I WRONG?! So the difference here is she will tell me how she is feeling prompted by me asking her and her telling me "I know this hurts you and I am sorry."

Instead of keeping these feelings in, I have developed a talking relationship with my WW, and yes this is reciprical. I hate throwing out positive signs about my WW because I take these signs with a grain of salt. Here are some things that I have noticed about us recently:

1) She cares about how I am feeling. She asks about how I am feeling. If I look sad or angry she will ask me what is bothering me, and she will try to make me feel better. Our conversations regarding feelings are reciprical and she truly cares about how I am feeling.
2) She is guilty for what she has done and apoligizes frequently. She will say things like I know this hurts you and I am sorry.
3) We hold hands and we cuddle at night.
4) We talk about anything and everthing and have a great and rewarding conversations.
5) The other day during conversation she acted very flirtatous with me. (Guys you know what this is like.) Surprised the sh** out of me, but made me feel good.
6) She tries to keep the house clean, cooks me TERRIFIC DINNERS (that is when the drama is not so intense for both of us that we are not worn out).
7) She is very very stressed and very very guilty, so much so that she is having terrible female problems (bleeding heavily) and is going in to the doctor on the 9th.
8) She says I have done nothing wrong and she is to blame and accepts all responsibility and will not accept the fact that I was partially responsible because I did not fill her needs.

These are not typical signs of a WS and are great signs that a recovery could be around the corner.
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JL,

I do not feel very strong now. You are right about that. I am so weak it hurts. I do realize that I have the upper hand. I was in control yesterday when I confronted them. I was made the saint while they remained the WS's. Typically confrontations bring the oposite response. I was very fortunate not to freak out and bust his mouth wide open. (I could have taken him.)

You are right about the Plan B thing. From what she tells me, I feel Plan B will not have an affect because she tells me should could care less if I leave. She may even be saying she does not care if I leave so that I do not try Plan B. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Could she be lying? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Maybe I should call her bluff. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

You are right about recovery not necessarily occurring after OM is out of picture. She still has to get over many things which we have discussed. She is scared she will not have feelings for me again. She feels guilty for what she has done and does not think she could forgive herself enough to let me in her heart.

My wife admits that she has more to lose than to gain from the OM. She will lose my family (the family she always wanted growing up who is loving and caring), she will lose the giving I give her because OM is just a taker, she will lose the comfort of our home, she will gain a raging OMW (she is most scared of this). So why does she even consider OM? Just because she says she is in Love (blasted love chemicals). She is able to convince herself of this, but as soon as the OM contacts her and they talk, all the feelings come back.

I guess she has not been too friendly. She is just using me for support and she values my opinions even about how crappy the OM is.

Thanks JL
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Hurrian Hoosier,

I here what you are saying loud and clear. Like I mentioned before she is in tune with my feelings. I know that what she says to me is hurtful, but I would prefer honesty over me guessing all the time. I can deal with the painful truth better than always guessing. You sound like my best friend right now who is being the devil's advocate who is constantly trying to get me to see that she is really hurting me and that she should make a decision and stick to it.
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Onwardandup,

I think you are right about JL's comments. However, I am going to wait for the right timing which I do not believe is now, but may be very very soon.

HH,

I do not know how to feel now. I am very very numb. Been doing this posting thing too long.

Thanks for your input.

The way I feel is that I would prefer that she tells me how she is feeling instead of keeping it in. I am aware of the pain that this can cause me when I ask her how she is feeling.

This time, I am not hurt that much by all of this. I have dealt with the reality of the situation and I have made it clear that I do not accept the situation. We had a long serious talk last night and she filled one of my needs. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I love her and I am willing to stick with it a while and see what tomorrow will bring. When I look back to D-day, I feel I have much better odds now that we will make it then ever before.

dreamland,

In general, Plan A and B are about you and your behaviors. You learning and applying new marital skills (Plan A) and you protecting yourself from the lovebusting nature of an active affair (Plan B). I think a couple of your insights are terrific:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">she is being honest with me about her feelings and about what she is doing and planning to do. Honesty is a good quality, and can not be ignored in this equation</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have a set time I would endure and felt like I could endure the A. I have not reached this time frame yet. This was set as SAA recommended at the start of the Plan A.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think Plan B is all about timing. Plan B at a time when the A is on its final bounce is probably bad timing. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I get annoyed when people around here respond that Plan B should be a retaliation for behaviors x, y, and z from a spouse. That's not it. Dobson's "Tough Love" is not consistent with MB material, because he basically advocates a straight-to-plan B type approach.

Plan B is to save your love for your spouse, hopefully while the affair dies a death---the affair dies because you've removed your considerable and newly-honed needs-meeting/non-LBing skills from the equation and let the OP take center stage (unfortunately that dose of "reality" is often needed to end an affair). What are the requisites to go to Plan B, in regards to the best attempt to save your marriage?

1. A good Plan A in which WS has seen a consistent track record of new marital behavior.

2. A consistant loss of love for your spouse, usually brought on by the inconsiderate behaviors of an active affair.

3. Timing in which you leave (enter Plan B) solely for your good and the good of the marriage, not in a way that will seem punishing or in retribution for a specific act of the WS.

I think you've done an excellent job in dealing with your situation so far. Try to stick with your timeframe. Let your wife know that you appreciate her honesty. Be clear with her that renewed contact is painful to you---but you'd still rather hear about it from her than discover it by other means. And prepare your Plan B letter, and get your ducks in a row for separation. It is hard, and it is scary...

If you haven't done any phone counseling with the Harley's, it might be a good time to give it a try. However, it seems like you've got a pretty good understanding of the dynamics, and you'll probably do OK on your own...

Good luck