The "just good friends" thing that WS use to justify continued contact always gets me ROTFL. I know what a healthy friendship is for me and have no problem setting boundaries with men and recognizing warning signs. I'd like to know how the rest of you interact with your opposite sex friends, how do you "feel" about them, where are your boundries set, what do you talk about, etc. What does a safe friendship consist of? Maybe some WS who is currently in denial will get some insight from this thread.

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Alright lets see.

Most of my friends are male (I have a LOT of friends and only about a 10% of them are female) So here is how it works for me:

1) We talk about anything really, normally they come and talk about what is worrying them, school, work, gf, all of it in a very relaxed tone. We also talk about silly stuff, movies, music, cars etc. They come and cry on my shoulder when they get their heart broken, and me and my H take them out and get them some ice cream and cheer them up.

2) My H knows about all of them, and if they talk about something with me I talk about it with my H, and ask for his opinion on the matter. Then I give my friends both feedbacks.

3) All physical contact is limited to a hug or playful wrestling, but normally the wrestling involves me menacing to kick someone's butt and them running away to later be caught and put on a head lock. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

4) They have no problem when I ALWAYS bring my H along if we do things, they get along with him, the only time they haven't is when he was making me sad, and even then they coached us to get back together because ultimatedly we make a great team.

5) There is not even need to set up boundaries because nobody crosses nobody's lines. They don't try to kiss me if they don't want to die and stop being my friends <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

We never hold hands, never kiss, and never hug for longer than necessary. Never say "I love you" or sweet nothings. We don't exchange presents appart from Christmas, b-days or anniversaries. We never sneak around to meet each other.
We don't obsess thinking about each other.
We phone each other only when there is nothing showing on TV and we are sick bored, and WH is busy working by my side, or well when we have a huge problem and need external help.

We have a brotherly-sisterly relationship.
We have no impure thoughts about each other.
We don't keep secrets that are not shared by me and my H.
We don't make pacts as: "If your H ever leaves you, call me up"

We count on each other, and lean on each other, but they are never my number one choice for it, since my very best friend and confidant is my H.

I don't share marriage secrets with them.
I don't share my bedroom life with them.
I don't compare my H to them.

I think thats it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Kat's Personal Rules for Friendships with Guys:
(P.S. I stole a lot of this from the iVillage article on Emotional Infidelity, but a lot of it was stuff I was doing instinctively anyway.

1. No touching of any sort (including hugs) without my H present.

2. No discussion of anything personal or emotional. (Ball game, weather, recent family vacation, okay topics. Marital discord, WAY OFF LIMITS!)

3. No level of sexual tension is appropriate in an opposite sex friendship. No joking about sex, no talking about sexual history/experiences/likes/dislikes, no asking for tips "from the other side's perspective," no double entendres, however harmless. "Flee all APPEARANCE of evil." If co-workers are teasing you about your relationship, it's time to break it off.

4. No "lopsided" friendships (where the other person is obviously attracted to you/looking for more/emotionally needy/playing "Damsel in Distress" etc.) You can tell yourself all you want that because YOU'RE not attracted, it's okay. But continuing the relationship is ALLOWING that person to pursue and win you over (and abject adoration is very persuasive, even from an unattractive person). By the time you realize they've succeeded in attracting you, it's a little too late to break it off. Now you're hooked, too.

3.

Kat's Top Ten List of Red Flags that You Need to Drop Your "Platonic" Opposite Sex Friend.

1. Your spouse is uncomfortable with your relationship with them.

2. Either of you are obviously looking for excuses to get together.

3. You're tempted to hide how much time you are spending together from your spouse/s.

4. "If only my wife/husband/boyfriend/girlfriend could be more like you."

5. "If only we'd met before we got married."

6. "Does your wife/husband have to go with us to the movies?"

7. "Would you mind if we went somewhere private? I really need somebody to talk to."

8. "Do you think people can just have sex and still be friends?"

9. "You're all I have. I don't know what I'd do without you."

10. "Wouldn't it be funny if we ended up together?" (Yeah, I know our spouses would think it was hysterical.)

(Note: Taken from actual experiences of FWH.)

A healthy opposite sex friendship is:

1. First and foremost: <strong>NOT SECRET</strong>

2. Spouse in the relationship talks about it openly to the other spouse.

3. In the culture I grew up in a peck on the cheek when greeting and a hug are acceptable. NOT for everyone, though....your call.

4. When both spouses are with the "friend", it is VERY clear that the spouse is the most important person to the other spouse.

5. Contact is open, honest, and if anything "unusual" happens, it is reported to the spouse.

<small>[ July 03, 2002, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

1. Never say anything to a "friend" of the opposite sex that you wouldn't say if your spouse was present.

2. IF spouse is uncomfortable with the "friendship" end it!

(it took my H 6 years to admit his "friendship" was actually a PA!)

I would have agreed with all this PRIOR to my wife's A. But, her A started with all of those things. For her, for me now, her saying or doing any of these things is the equivalent of offering near-Beer to a recovering alcoholic.

- No alone time... ever, at all, period. The ONLY exception would be if it's a public place and I know about it in advance and she sticks to her scheduled plan.
- Family members.

That's it.

OK, here goes. First of all, the guys that I consider to be my friends are actually MUTUAL friends of H and myself. Any other men I have ever met separatly are simply aquaintances. H knows just as much or more about our guy friends as I do.

1. A friendly quick hug is OK but it is ALWAYS in front of H. One guy we know gave ME a hug once when H was not present that really bothered me. I stay away from that guy like he is the plague. The hug was obviously not innocent.

2. I never call up a guy just to talk or just to hear their voice. Occasionally a guy will call when H is not home, I keep it light and friendly, H knows about every conversation and the content. There are no secret or private conversations. During H's last A, I did call several male friends and aquaintances to get some input, eventually I even told H about that.

3. Cant remember ever emailing a guy in my life or writing a letter, or sending a card or giving a gift(unless it was from both of us.

4. Cant imagine going around kissing on my guy friends unless in front of H and it would have to be in a brother/sister or family type scenario.

5. I love to talk and shoot the breeze with people and so does H. I do not enjoy talking to men alone, it makes me nervous, there is automatically some sort of tension in the air.

6. I dont spend recreation time with men without H present.

7. No alone time, I barely have time to spend alone with H, why would I want to give any of that to some other guy?

8. The NO Alone thing eliminates most problems right off the bat. Any guy that has personal or marriage problems will have to discuss it with both of us, or at least know that I will tell H everything that the guy said. H and I are a package deal.

Fortunately for me and for my H it seems to be my nature to handle things this way so that H is protected automatically from me doing anything with a guy that would hurt H. It is not a sacrifice or a chore to do this. It is simple.

Unfortunately H's behavior is frequently the polar opposite of what I have just written, and I suspect that he believes that I am being absolutely rediculous. His behaviors with OW's have put my love bank in the red.

Thanks for the input from all of you. Just needed to see if there is something wrong with ME.

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9.

2.

<small>[ July 04, 2002, 02:23 PM: Message edited by: Replaced ]</small>

I can see right off the bat that you folks allow more in opposite sex friendships than I would be comfortable with!! Until I worked in an all male work situation with me being the lone female, I had NO male friends outside of family and church family. As far as both of those are concerned, we do things as COUPLES!! My H visits with the male, I visit with the female. Any other conversation is with both other spouses present. No contact, a handshake between opposite sex is sufficient. A one arm hug if there's been a death or something really serious like that. You can let someone know you care about them without touching them.

Now my work fellows are a different story. It is MUCH harder to have the above situation occur with them. To start with, their wives or girlfriends can't come to work with them every day as neither can my H. So here's my rules for work relationships:

1) No contact off the job, even by phone unless it is work related. (I have dropped off vegetables at one guy's house with my H in the car, and one other guy came to my house to pick something up one time while my H was at home, and 2 of them came once to discuss work and we sat on the porch to discuss it, they were NOT invited in since my H was not home!!!)

2) No sexual discussions, fantasies, real life etc. This can be difficult as it seems to come up sometimes especially since 2 of them know about my Hs A. I always try to steer the conversation back to safer topics or leave the conversation all together.

3) Take compliments with a grain of salt. When these guys compliment me, I roll my eyes and usually say "yeah right!", and then walk off. Or come up with some other smart aleck comment to diffuse the situation. After compliments I also avoid that co-worker for awhile.

4) When you sense you are being "stared down", "checked out" etc, DO NOT MAKE EYE CONTACT. I exit the room ASAP! I do not allow these guys to give me "unsaid messages" with their eyes! I consider that EXTREMELY DANGEROUS! Because they can convey messages with their eyes without the threat of sexual harassment, whereas saying what they are thinking would be harassment!!!

5) Be cautious about labeling someone as a friend!! Co-workers are people we are "tied" to because we have to be with them, not because we want to be with them. None of the guys I work with would be my "friend" if we didn't work together. They do not have my values, they do not have my morals, they do not share interests with me. Therefore the only common ground we have is work. That does not constitute a friendship, and I don't think a friendship should ever develop with any one of them. Yes, there are some I like better than others, because of personality differences. But that does not mean that they are my friends. Friends help you when you are down, not try to drag you down.

For those of you that are familiar with Dr. Laura, she says that there is NEVER a need for opposite sex friendships. If you are involved in one, get out of it. The potential for problems is just to risky. Which do you value more, your friends our your spouse? If it's your friends, you may need to examine your self.

Oh and by the way, in a work situation, there is NEVER innocent touching or hugging. And yes I've been guilty of getting carried away with having a good time and without thinking punched one of them on the arm, etc. But I try very hard not to, and when I catch myself doing it, it is a red flag and I back up and restore some seriousness to the situation.

For the record, my work place is VERY casual and there is abundant free time for conversation! I "work" for about 2 hours out of an 8 hour day, and some of them don't do any work at all in an 8 hour day. They just sit around and shoot the breeze. It is a situation I must keep a grip on to keep it from getting out of hand, as several have made it clear that they would love to see where events would lead if the situation were to get "out of hand."

Like I said before: Be careful who you label as your friends. My WH thought the OW was a friend until it was too late. Now he can see how clearly that she was not a friend, she was a woman, and over time he began to fantasize about her, she made it obvious that she was open and willing for advancements, they discussed personal issues and sex issues, and it went downhill from there as you can imagine. Friends don't try to ruin your life for you.

Boy, after reading these new EA threads I think I need to eliminate even friendly hugs and the very rare peck on the cheek kiss (in front of H).

It all boils down to radical honesty and POJA and there wont be any problem.

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