I thought it would be easier starting a new thread. I have read all the post over the last few days, looked at the MB book and done some reading on my own. But I am still puzzled and trying to do the right thing.
I have thought about my emotional needs and those of wife. I can not find anything glaring lacking. We spend time together, common interests, go on dates, etc.
That is why my female friend has thrown me for a loop because it was nto something I sought out or craved.
In looking at several books it seems that I am in an affair or not in one, depending on the author's point of view.
I dont think I am. Here is why: My friend and I see each other in person only every weeek or so, sometimes not even then. She calls me at the end of her day and talks for a few minutes. I leave a message for her during the day that she can listen to.
My wife knows I talk with the woman from time to time -- not the frequency and not what I always say about feelings. Her husband does not know and she kills out the cellphone log.
How is it an affair if we are not moving toward going to bed, if that is not something desired and if I am the one who speaks more freqqenbtly about feelings of love?
That seems like a one-side crush and I can find nothing in any book that talks about that situation

IMHO it is an affair if it has to be kept a secret. That is the harsh reality of it. Secrets and lies destroy a marriage. If you can't find anything lacking in your marriage, then you would be making the biggest mistake of your life to risk destroying it for this friendship / EA.

I agree - If you and your friend see each other without your spouses and if she is deleting her call log on her cell phone. You are both hiding something and I consider that an EA. My H tried to tell me that they were just friends and I don't think that he thought he was doing anything wrong until it was too late. He was e-mailing her and calling her on his cell phone from/to her work. They had lunch together every now and then. He started buying B-Day, Xmas and Valentine gifts for her and putting them on our credit card. Always had an excuse "You'll see, I got a great deal on something so I bought it early for your B-Day", etc. Yes, I was dumb enough to believe that this was just a friendship and even dumber to believe that it was safe because OW was married as well. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />
You have to ask yourself if you could just walk away from this relationship? If the answer is yes than do it!! If the answer is no, than you have to admit that you are having an EA and you need to stop it now while you can.
If you love your wife and want to keep your M then you owe it to yourself and her to stop it now. You can reason out anything to make you not guilty of an A but in reality you need to look at it from outside the picture. How would you feel if your wife had this type of relationship with another Man?
OK, I'll get off my soap box. Just don't want anyone to have to go through what I have the past 9 months.

I aggree with "is this a bad dream"

This is an EA!!no matter how you try to justify it!

It IS an affair because it is secret, the things said and feelings expressed are secret, and more importantly, you are expending your emotional connection(s) with someone other than your W.

This is called an Emotional Affair, and these are, in many ways, worse than Physical Affairs.

Here's an article I found in "Makeupdontbreakup.com" Thought it might help.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"An emotional affair is any time you use more energy on someone else other than your partner. These are the affairs that are most dangerous — only 5 percent to 10 percent end up going to the lover and leaving their partner. In my practice, it's 2 percent. The ones that go to the lover, though, are the ones that have the emotional affair more so than the physical affair.
Everyone has to be patient.
The first thing the person that has committed adultery has to do — Step One — is to let you know where they are at all times. "I'm going to the grocery store, going to get a haircut, I'll be a half hour late," etc. The adulterer has to do this to assure the betrayed for the first couple of years.

The second thing is that the adulterer has to say, "I have had no contact with the affair."
The third is that if the affair calls him, he has to announce it and tell you even if he didn't contact her back or speak to her. This increases the trust of your partner.
The fourth is you also — the betrayed — have to help the adulterer grieve for what the adulterer is missing now — for what he or she gave up. (People always hate me for mentioning this one!)
The main way to get to the forgiveness is to see equal signs between the betrayed and the adulterer. Meaning, it's either no one's fault or both people's fault. That helps you move to forgiveness because once you see equal signs, the betrayed stops obsessing and the betrayed can move to forgiveness.

The adulterer also has to allow the betrayed to throw emotional darts at him — time-limited, by appointment only, for 10 minutes (if it's a man, women can endure longer). And, the adulterer must allow the betrayed to lash out at the lover every day for 10 minutes at least once a day and promise not to defend the affair.
You also need to ask certain questions to be able to move on and the adulterer has to allow these questions instead of ignoring them — ignoring them causes the betrayed to obsess more. The less you tell, as an adulterer, the more the betrayed dwells.

The questions you should answer: Who was it? Where was it? How long has it been going on? When did you meet? Will you stop cheating with this person? Do you love this person? Are you going to marry this person and leave me? Who else knows? Do you still love me?
However, when answering these questions, do not give the gory details — that is one big mistake and does not do well for sexual healing later on. It's really important that people be aware that the ones betrayed remember this for the rest of their life, so don't tell too many details.
But again, if you don't tell enough, the more the betrayed dwells. It's a delicate balance."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Is It Cheating?
By Kathleen Kelleher

It seemed like nothing at first.

The man and woman met at a West Los Angeles school their children attend. The man, who is divorced, and the woman, who is married, spent time together volunteering on school projects. School-related meetings led to meeting for coffee. Talk turned from the non-personal to the personal.

The woman began revealing her feelings of distress about her marriage. The man listened, empathized and offered up the pain-filled details of his divorce. Each time they saw each other, entre-nous intimations were exchanged, deepening an emotional connection that fairly sizzled with an underlying sexual tension.

There is heavy petting, and there is heavy emoting. Both constitute infidelity to a marriage or primary relationship. Psychologists call an affair without any physical touching extramarital emotional involvement, emotional infidelity or an emotional affair. In emotional affairs, deep, personal intimacies are traded, instead of fantasies of the flesh.

The hallmarks of an emotional infidelity are secrecy and sexual chemistry, according to Shirley Glass, a Baltimore-area clinical psychologist who has studied infidelity for the last 25 years. Friendships, whether they are hatched over the Internet or in the flesh, begin and develop quickly when someone connects with a person who appears to be empathetic and who shares common interests.

The first transgression of an emotional infidelity is when two people share information about problems in their primary relationship that their respective partner would feel was a violation. This flags vulnerability and possible availability, writes Glass in the forward to "Infidelity on the Internet" (Sourcebooks Inc., 2001), co-written by psychologist Marlene Maheu and therapist Rona Subotnik.

Trouble looms large when one person intimates feelings to a potential sexual partner, things they are unwilling to confide to their existing partner, Glass said. Suddenly, the emotional intimacy in the friendship is deeper than that of the primary relationship, drawing the two people closer to a sexual affair. A primary relationship is even more threatened when marital troubles are discussed with someone who has no vested interest in the marriage, according to Glass.

"Once you have an emotional infidelity, it can make the jump to someone else's bed a whole lot closer," said Gary Neuman, a Miami Beach clinical psychologist and author of "Emotional Infidelity" (Crown Publishers, 2001). Neuman argues in his book that people need to learn to invest their emotional selves in their primary relationship, not in intense emotional bonds forged with colleagues and friends. Neuman believes that if too much is spent outside the primary relationship, not enough is left to sustain it. "An emotional infidelity is about consistently sharing with someone (outside the relationship) things that you are not sharing with your spouse."

The reason people have emotional affairs is they are looking for emotional nourishment on some level that they are not getting in their main relationship, added Ann Langley, a marriage and family therapist at the San Jose Marital and Sexuality Centre.

A 49-year-old mother of two teenagers fell into an emotional affair with a man who flirted with her online a few years ago. He was romantic and a great communicator, everything her then-husband was not. The woman has no intention of trying to woo the man away from his wife and daughter, she said, and they have met about four times. "It is safe," said the woman. "He knows I wouldn't interfere with his marriage and that I wouldn't put him through that emotional trauma."

"We are like best friends," she said, adding that her marriage was over before the cyber affair. "There is a kind of desperate romantic thing to it that is appealing. The last couple of years, I have had more romance with him than I had in 25 years of marriage."

Unzipping the heart with someone outside a primary relationship can be motivated by fear that revealing oneself to a spouse or primary partner will invite humiliation, rejection and pain. "Maybe your partner is a prude and you can't explore your sexual fantasies or express parts of yourself with him," said Pepper Schwartz, a University of Washington sociologist and author of many relationship books. "So as not to deny parts of yourself, and so as not to try to make your partner into something he is not, you go outside your main relationship to explore."

One woman in her 50s exchanges sexual fantasies online with men anonymously and secretly, telling the men that she is married and doesn't want to pursue anything. The woman argued in a message board posting on the Web site that her fantasy swapping has benefited her marriage by reinvigorating her sex life with her husband.

For people determined not to leave their existing relationships, Schwartz said, an emotional affair is an attempt to reconcile conflicting needs. But some people engage in emotional affairs for the extra zing. "Some people have these emotional affairs, and they are doing the same kind of flirtation and seduction as in a physical affair, and are taking themselves out of the primary relationship," Schwartz said. "It might as well be sex."

Kathleen Kelleher is a free-lance writer in Los Angeles who writes on health and relationship issues.

(c) 2002, Kathleen Kelleher. Distributed by Los Angeles Times Syndicate International, a division of Tribune Media Services.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The Emotional Affair
The topic of infidelity is a frequent topic with couples experiencing problems. When most people hear the terms 'infidelity' or 'affair', they almost always think of a passionate, romantic, physical relationship. Certainly many people engage in physical affairs borne out of immaturity, acting out of hostility and even sexual addiction.
What is less understood however, and at times can be even more threatening to a long-term relationship than a physical affair, is an emotional affair. An emotional affair occurs when one member of a relationship consistently turns to someone else for their core, primary emotional support in life. It often develops slowly, even innocently, as a friendship with a co-worker or friend. There may or may not be a romantic/sexual attraction initially accompanying this budding friendship. But when the primary relationship is experiencing ongoing hostility, conflict and/or distance, and one member of the relationship pulls away from their partner and consistently turns to their 'friend' for companionship, support and sharing of deep personal material, an emotional affair has begun.
For many people, the emotional affair is a great source of relief and comfort during relationship difficulties. But the danger is that there is a finite amount of intimate emotional energy to go around, and when one begins to regularly invest significant amounts of their emotional energy in someone outside the primary committed relationship, the primary relationship can be seriously compromised.
Frequently, an emotional affair will deepen through consistent contact through in-person discussion and/or numerous email and voice mail messages. There becomes an excitement and ease in hearing from the person. And when this type of relationship does lead to physical intimacy, it's often a little sex and a lot of talking. The sex may be intense and passionate, but it is the feeling of emotional safety and companionship that really fuels the bond at the deepest level.
This companionship can doom the primary relationship. Once the door of emotional intimacy has been opened and the bond deepens, the person having the emotional affair cannot help but compare. "It's so easy to talk to her, and so hard to talk to my spouse" is the common refrain. "My husband always complains and criticizes, but my friend is always there, always in a good mood, and always understands and listens to me." It is much easier to open up and feel safe in a superficial new friendship compared to a long-term committed relationship.
How do you know if you are developing an emotional affair? Ask yourself these questions:
• do I feel like it's easier to talk to my friend than my partner?
• does my friend seem to understand me in a deeper way than my partner?
• have I stopped confiding my deepest feelings and concerns with my partner and now turn to my friend for these needs?
If you find yourself or your partner developing an emotional affair, you need to put your attention on your primary relationship as soon as possible. Get help to understand why you drifted to this other person in the first place. Begin the work of re-investing emotional energy in your primary relationship. Turning to someone else during a time of conflict or distance often is merely escaping and avoiding other issues which won't go away. And don't kid yourself: these same issues will resurface again should you develop a real relationship with your emotional affair partner. You may as well learn to deal with them now, before putting yourself and your partner through a terrible crisis.
http://www.relationship-institute.com/freearticles_detail.cfm?article_ID=156

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What Counts as Infidelity?
By Kristin Kloberdanz
We're all aware of the signs of infidelity: your partner spending a lot of extra time at the office these days; his or her appearance suddenly becoming very important; your sex life either dropping off entirely or going into overdrive. These are just a few signs of betrayal. While you by no means should get overly paranoid, keep in mind that 85 percent of women who think their partner is cheating are right while 50 percent of men who think their partner is cheating are correct. (By the same token, statistics show that up to 37 percent of men admit to infidelity compared to 22 percent of women).
But what exactly does "cheating" or "infidelity" technically mean?
Its definition is elusive because it really boils down to each and every individual. For instance, According to a survey on infidelity.com, 46 percent of men believe that online affairs are cheating. Some people may draw the line at intercourse, some at oral sex and others at simply kissing. "Kissing in a romantic, passionate way is an infidelity," says Dr. Shirley Glass, a Baltimore-based psychologist who has been studying infidelity for over 20 years. "People know when they cross that line from friendship to affair." Some people have such an open relationship, they don't care if their partner has sex, as long as he or she comes home and says "I love you and only you." Others, like M. Gary Neuman, author of Emotional Infidelity, say that having lunch or a drink with someone of the opposite sex constitutes as being unfaithful.
You get the picture -- basically, what one person is okay with, another may not be. However, according to Dr. Glass, three elements of a person's relationship with someone other than their partner are needed to constitute an affair:
• Secrecy: If one partner starts meeting someone, even just for a drink or breakfast, without telling the other partner, it spells trouble. "It is going to feel like a betrayal, a terrible deception," Dr. Glass says.
• Emotional intimacy: When a person starts confiding in a member of the opposite sex about the problems in his or her relationship, it disrupts the balance of emotional intimacy because the friendship becomes greater or stronger than the original relationship.
• Sexual chemistry: The third element that must be there is sexual tension or sexual chemistry. "That can occur even if two people don't touch," Dr. Glass says. "If one says, 'I'm really attracted to you,' or 'I had a dream about you last night, but, of course, 'I'm married, so we won't do anything about that,' that tremendously increases the sexual tension by creating forbidden fruit in the relationship."
Copyright 2002 Fun Online Corporation.
http://channels.netscape.com/ns/love/content.jsp?file=love/fun/infidelity.jsp

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Emotional Unavailability

From “How To Recognize Emotional Unavailability And Make Healthier Relationship Choices” by Bryn Collins, M.A., L.P.

An emotionally unavailable relationship occurs whenever one partner is unable to reach out and make a heart connection with another person, while the other partner feels as is it is somehow his/her fault and thus bears the responsibility to fix it by being perfect. Such a relationship seems easy to spot-until you are in the middle of it.

An emotionally unavailable partner does not want love as much as he or she wants control. Emotions seem unsafe; control lends an illusion of safety. If you are in a relationship, you expect the relationship to grow and deepen over time; you expect a heart connection to be made and maintained, and you operate your life on the basis of this expectation.

When your partner does not make the same emotional connection, the result is trauma and pain. Often the emotionally unavailable person has no awareness his or her own contribution to the relationship’s collapse. Nevertheless, at a certain point it is essential for you to cut the entangling ties and move on.

Excerpts from one of the Emotionally Unavailable types:

James Bond: Spies & Lies

He won’t tell you where he lives. She will give you only a work number. He’s evasive about his history, friends, job and background. A year after you marry her, you find out she’s been married before. A mistress shows up. You find bills for credit cards you didn’t know you had.

Secrets and the lies that support them make it very hard to make an emotional connection. In part that’s because the secrets create a wall. In part it’s also because the secrets take a lot of energy to maintain and that energy is stolen from having a relationship with a person.

James Bonds are secret-keepers who with hold information from people with whom they are in a relationship. Sometimes this is because they believe the secrets give them power or an illusion of mystery and excitement; other times it is because the revelation of the secrets will end the relationship and they won’t get what they want-the reason for keeping secrets in the first place.

When you get into a relationship with a James Bond, you may enjoy the mystery at first. It’s kind of exciting not to know when he or she will suddenly appear to sweep you into whatever passed for his or her Aston Martin or private jet and then just as suddenly disappear again.

As the relationship moves along, however, predictability becomes more important and desirable to you, but the James Bond has no interest in being trapped by your rational expectation of continuity in the relationship.

You begin to snoop. Bond leaves you alone in the car or the apartment for a few minutes, and your fingers stray to the glove compartment or desktop. You hate yourself for what you’re doing, but you can’t stop. Bills, letters, scraps with phone numbers-a flood of information without explanation. What you’re looking for are the missing pieces of James Bond’s life that you don’t get to know. The problem is that you have no threads to weave into a fabric of truth. All you have is scraps that have no clear meaning.

Or, worse perhaps, you DO find something; a breathless love letter you didn’t write, a sexy card you didn’t send, a photo that isn’t you. Now what do you do? Now you have information and a whole new conundrum. In order to confront James Bond with the information, you have to admit you’ve been snooping. Then Bond has the perfect out: he or she can get mad at you for snooping, and never have to own up to the rest of it.
The other thing that happens is that you lose trust completely. Being in a relationship with someone you don’t trust isn’t being in a relationship at all. It begins to undermine your trust in yourself as well and that undermines your self-image, which makes you more vulnerable, which undermines your self-confidence-you can see the descending spiral here.

Meanwhile, James Bond isn’t making any changes. The secrets and lies continue, surrounded by denials and protestations of honesty or indignation that you would even suspect him or her of not being completely truthful.

James Bond has difficulty with both trust and honesty, which makes trust impossible.
The sad thing is that even if he or she changes completely, it’s still really hard to build trust because of the history. So you get more and more suspicious and less and less trusting while James continues along the self-focused path of getting his or her needs met above all else.

When the situation (we can’t really call this a relationship) finally blows up-and these relationships almost invariably blow up rather than fade away-your ability to trust anyone blows right with it. The next person who comes into your life will be under the microscope, and that is a very uncomfortable spot for anyone. The new potential partner often departs to avoid being distrusted at every turn.

The Difference Between Secret And Private

Private matters are those traits, truths, beliefs, and ideas about ourselves that we keep to ourselves. They might include our fantasies and daydreams, feelings about the way the world works, and spiritual beliefs. Private matters, when revealed either accidentally or purposefully, give another person some insight into the revealer.

Secrets, on the other hand, consist of information that has potentially negative impact on someone else-emotionally, physically, or financially. Secrets, when revealed either accidentally or purposefully, cause great chaos or harm to the secret-keeper and those around him or her.

Private: I believe in reincarnation.
Secret: I have a wife and a mistress and neither knows about the other.
Private: I got terrible grades in high school.
Secret: I forged my medical degree.

The Difference Between Truth and Honesty

Truth is empirical, demonstrable fact. Your bank balance, today’s date, whether or not you’re married.

Honesty is about feelings. If you’re honest, you are open and clear about how you feel. You can be truthful without being honest and you can be honest without being truthful (the latter a little more difficult). The best relationships, stating the painfully obvious, are both truthful and honest. Trust is built on both truth and honesty, tempered by the proof of predictability and reliability.

Half.com:
http://half.ebay.com/cat/buy/prod.cgi?cpid=485778&domain_id=1856&meta_id=1

Amazon:
For some unknown reason, Amazon lists it as “Not Yet Available” (Weird since I have one…)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/A...89/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/002-6131253-9041647

Here’s another book by the same author, slightly older, same subject:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/A...89/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-6131253-9041647

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I suggest you read Torn Asunder, then you will definitely see that what you're doing is an emotional affair. These are often more destructive even than physical affairs. But you will convince yourself of anything if you try hard enough. Everybody involved in affairs that I've seen has justified, at least at the beginning.

How can telling somebody other than your wife that you love them, kiss them, etc. not be an affair?

By the way, I'm not sure if you answered this but how long have you been married? Have you been involved in any other affairs/infatuations?

only every week??

My H continued contact was "only" a YEAR APART and it lead to separation heading for a divorce. One was "only" an email where he called her "love". They were not moving toward "going to bed" they were merely "keeping in touch".

The botton line is it was disrespectful to me. Yep that constitutes a divorce in my book. I hope it is worth it to you.

tempted...or is it "thick skull"

I'm sorry but what part of (This is not OK!) don't you understand? You are a married man. If you insist on carrying on an intimate relationship with this person then tell your W. She deserves that much from you. If you can not tell her, than you're nothing but a coward, hiding behind the lack of sexual activity in this relationship. That's a Bill Clinton ploy if I ever heard of one. Remember?...("I did not have sexual relations with "that woman"). Well guess what?...You have kissed her...and that constitutes a physical relationship in my mind. If your W kissed another man you would surely hit the ceiling. For The Love Of God Man!!! Wake Up!
If you feel this way about having a so called "girlfriend" aside from your W then what's to stop you from having Several...oh gawd! I may have just opened a can of worms....Erasing last thought. Erasing... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Heck...holding hands is physical for that matter. All this is accompanied by the emotions and thoughts of Love. That sir is an affair. You are sharing intimacies with another woman. Stop denying that. Stop looking for approval for your wayward ways.

<small>[ July 03, 2002, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: ba109 ]</small>

Tempted,

I think that you are being deliberately obtuse. You do not want to know the real and true answer to your original question because then if you did you would have to stop in your tracks. It is obvious that you do not want to stop the path that you are on. By continuing to feign such ignorance you can hide behind it in order to continue your "relationship" (do not even try to call it anything else) with this "other woman" (yes, that is exactly what she is now). People come here and post in hopes of rebuilding their marriage. You are looking for someone to tell you that it is ok for you to have a "relationship" (there's that word again) with an "other woman" (ouch, I wonder if she knows the title and crown that has been bestowed upon her!).

AIN'T gonna happen....you have most definitely come to the wrong place.

<small>[ July 03, 2002, 06:31 PM: Message edited by: committedandlovingit ]</small>

tempted,

Sex [or lack thereof] does not determine an affair, it is emotional romantic feelings, which you have. The WORST kind of affairs are the ones that are purely emotional with no sex. At least with sex, your betrayed spouse can buffer her shock with the notion that it was "only sex."

With an EA, there is no such refuge. Nor is the frequency of contact a definer of an emotional affair. Doesn't matter if you talk to her every third Saturday or every night - it is irrelevent. It is a relationship that is characterized with romantic feelings. Yours is all that, no matter how hard you try to BS yourself.

Again, if there is nothing wrong with your relationship, there should be nothing to hide. Just invite her over to your house and in front of your wife and kids, stroke her leg and tell her you love her. See how that flies. If you are right and there is nothing wrong here, there shouldn't be a problem and you can continue on your merry way.

tempted, I am new here but have read extensively over the last week or so. You must remember that while you are confident in your ability to act or manage your contact at will, comfortable in your marriage, secure with yourself, etc. you forget that you must now manage the behavior of an unhappily married person. You seem to indicate your are driving this relationship as your posts indicate "me this and me that." What about the other person? Are you as confident about her comfort zone, security, silence? What if she wants more/less suddenly?

Tempted,

I have been tempted to post a reply for quite some time; but hadn't quite put it all together in my head until now.

My thoughts are this. If your relationship with your friend could survive "The Light Of Day" meaning what you both say and do with each other; in full view/hearing of your respective spouses then you are probably alright.

I feel what is good and pure has no need to hide in shadows. It survives and actually thrives in the light of day. If what you both say and do with each other would not survive the light of day then what you are doing is wrong.

I really think it is this simple.

Now a little bit about me. As you can see in my signature line my H had an A with a friend he had for 20 years. The A was 4 years ago and lasted approximately 4 months. At some point my H decided that their "friendship" would become an A.

Of course I knew the OW, we've run into her together periodically around town throughout the years. I also overheard my H on our home phone with her one afternoon. I remember making a mental note of his tone/words etc; but knowing they were friends didn't think anything about it.

She knew my H long before I met him. They went back to being friends after my H ended the A and they continued contact until d-day; when I insisted that they never see or speak to each other again in any form.

I wish my H had know about MB before he had the A. Because if he had the information available through MB he might have seen enough warning signs that could have made all the difference in our world; and saved both of us so much pain.

That is where I see you. I hope you're for real because you're getting quite alot of attention. CSue

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My wife knows I talk with the woman from time to time -- not the frequency and not what I always say about feelings. Her husband does not know and she kills out the cellphone log.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You both know that your relationship is wrong. If you can't speak to her as if your wife was standing there, and if she has to delete the cell phone log, it is wrong.

You know it, she knows it, and I (and many others) are not going to to tell you that it is okay as long as you are not hopping in bed.

So please, if you are going to continue to post and trying to "convince" yourself its okay, but not listen to our advice and experiences, why waste your time?

Sorry, I am not trying to be mean, but I will not stand by and sugar coat things for you.

Concentrate on enhancing your marriage.
Currently, all of your mental capacity is being wasted on convincing yourself that this "relationship" is safe.

You need to cut off all ties to this woman, both of you have marriages in trouble and are very vulnerable.
I know you say that your marriage is okay, but obviously it is in need of drastic repair. Please refocus your attention to your wife, not her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My wife knows I talk with the woman from time to time -- not the frequency and not what I always say about feelings. Her husband does not know and she kills out the cellphone log.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You both know that your relationship is wrong. If you can't speak to her as if your wife was standing there, and if she has to delete the cell phone log, it is wrong.

You know it, she knows it, and I (and many others) are not going to to tell you that it is okay as long as you are not hopping in bed.

So please, if you are going to continue to post and trying to "convince" yourself its okay, but not listen to our advice and experiences, why waste your time?

Sorry, I am not trying to be mean, but I will not stand by and sugar coat things for you.

Concentrate on enhancing your marriage.
Currently, all of your mental capacity is being wasted on convincing yourself that this "relationship" is safe.

You need to cut off all ties to this woman, both of you have marriages in trouble and are very vulnerable.
I know you say that your marriage is okay, but obviously it is in need of drastic repair. Please refocus your attention to your wife, not her.

This thread is just absurd! 'Tempted' doesn't want advice, just permission to continue his "friendship". This individual will do whatever he wants to do.... People let's move on and help someone who really needs and wants help.

I tend to agree with mgm. There are people who really need our help, and are willing to take it!

Tempted

Although I am not sure why I am bothering as you don't seem to respond to anything but I thought you should take a look at another thread. It is entitled "For experienced MBers - what would you describe as a health opposite sex relationship"

Here is the link:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=018774

I hope you take a look at it. Maybe you will learn something from it.

Regretting

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> That is why my female friend has thrown me for a loop because it was nto something I sought out or craved.
In looking at several books it seems that I am in an affair or not in one, depending on the author's point of view.
I dont think I am. Here is why: My friend and I see each other in person only every weeek or so, sometimes not even then. She calls me at the end of her day and talks for a few minutes. I leave a message for her during the day that she can listen to.
My wife knows I talk with the woman from time to time -- not the frequency and not what I always say about feelings. Her husband does not know and she kills out the cellphone log.
How is it an affair if we are not moving toward going to bed, if that is not something desired and if I am the one who speaks more freqqenbtly about feelings of love?
That seems like a one-side crush and I can find nothing in any book that talks about that situation </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tempted,
Maybe you are right. maybe our warnings are for nothing. THat's all they are - warnings for what we see as a possible danger. No one can predict the future, and none of us can actually see what's going on. And we haven't heard the OW's side of the story either. But based on what you've told us, and based on the fact that you are concerned enough to even come here for HELP, then we are merely trying to warn you of possibile dangers down the road. And the possible "dangers" are so devastating to yourself, her, and your families, we HATE to see it happen, k?

if you're so sure it's not an affair, then I'm not sure why you are here and continue asking us the same questions over and over. "Is it an affair?" It sounds like it IS an affair to US. That's our assessment. If you're so sure it's NOT... then continue the "friendship" and prove us all wrong. It's your choice. Take our advice or not.

Will you make yourself an appointment to see a counselor? If you are so confused by this, maybe talking to a counselor will help you sort it out.

And I hope you read the link Regretting gave you above. I was going to suggest that as well. You might even post your own opinion to that thread. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Take care, and good luck.
Faith1

<small>[ July 04, 2002, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</small>

Tempted,
I almost wonder if you realize what you are doing?

You come to a place, the MB Infidelity
Forum, where probably 98% of the posters are either betrayed spouses, cheaters, or the other person in an affair.

Many many of these affairs started just as you describe with friendships, co-workers, neighbors, in-laws, social acquaintances, old flames, people at the gym, clients, service providers, etc.

"Soulmates" meeting over the potato salad or coffee or donuts or drinks or the water fountain.

You describe a situation we have lived through, that blasted apart our lives, our homes, our marriages, our families, and yet seem to want approval or the acknowledgment that YOU are different, it will be just fine for YOU to smooze around with this woman when we've got the scars, the medication prescriptions, the counselor bills, the lawyer bills, the angry & hurt children that say otherwise.

What part of this don't you understand?

I'm not angry, just very passionate against infidelity of any kind because I KNOW THE DAMAGE.

CMiranda posted on the other thread that if it were so easy to just break contact, this website would be empty. And I have to say, that's wrong.

It is SIMPLE not EASY.

If wayward spouses took the simple concepts of no contact and, indeed, not beginning inappropriate and secretive friendships with the opposite sex, THEN the website would be empty.