Hi. I just defintitely confirmed that WH is away with OW for the weekend. He left Wed. and comes back to get the kids tomorrow morning. He told me he isn't seeing OW anymore and she wasn't going with him. I don't know why he keeps up this charade. I have asked so many times for the truth..it is so much less disrepectful. I have no way to get ahold of him if I wanted.
LHS-In my heart I want my marriage to work-you're right but I can't take the lies and the disrespect. Tomorrow he expects to hang-out at my house and work on it with the carpenter.
Should I wait until our counseling session this week to bring up this latest lie? He hasn't called the kids in two days. I think he is distancing himself from them.
I feel hopeless. What this stuff he says about being friends? Friends don't treat each other like this. I think the marriage is truly over in his mind and that's why he can be my "friend" without any conflict or sadness.
-CS

Hugs and big hugs...

I can't post much... but I wanted to reply to you.

DON'T DISCUSS THE 'A' at all.... AT ALL.

Pretend it doesn't exist. FOCUS ON YOU. FOCUS ON YOU.

ELIMINATE LOVEBUSTERS... ELIMINATE LOVEBUSTERS.

FOCUS ON YOU... FOCUS ON YOU...

Hugs [[[[[[[[[[can't sleep]]]]]]]]

Cali

Cali-Thanks.
I can't imagine seeing him in the morning with a smile on my face and acting like I haven't been duped.
It's so hard when he acts like he cares as a friend and wants to talk-it is all such BS. He feels nothing for me as a wife and I need to accept that.
I haven't left any crappy messages on his voice mail-that's good.
-CS

Well CS,

Can U keep from speaking about the A? When I was in that position, I needed the WS to stay away otherwise, I wanted to rip his head off.

What is your plan B status? ARe you willing to stay in plan A? Do you still need to make improvements that are preventing you from going to plan B? He is being disrespectful to you. You need to decide whether you will allow this to continue by welcoming him into your home.

A lot of things rest on your decisions. For many financial impace is great, emotional impact, the children, etc. Weigh out all your factors and visit your options with an open mind. Check things out with your counselor, lawyer or a good friend to kind of play act what you might be encounter with your H.

JMHO,
L.

O-
I haven't really done a Plan A for more than two days at a time (No LB's, etc). I am losing weight and need to find a different job. This week I am working on paperwork for support, etc. WH said he is no hurry to do it-his checks go into my account. However, it is better for me if I start the paperwork. It will get ugly.
We need to be separated for one yr before D is granted but other work can be done and filed. We have done the custody stuff already.
I don't think I can keep my mouth shut about A but I am going to tomorrow. I am going to leave when he gets here...he is going to work on the house. It's interesting. He waits until I get back after 12 days to schedule work to be done. In the past, I have stayed here and hung-out with him.
It's not looking good, is it?
-CS

The night continues...I can't sleep. I really believed my WH when he told me that she didn't mean anything to him and he could give up her or anyone else easily if we worked things out.
I guess I was stupid. Something that has gone on this long is more than a "wake-up call", which
is how he originally explained his departure. I asked him a month ago if and when he'd be willing to work on M and stop seeing OW. He said when you get a job (big issue) and start treating me with respect and dignity.
How can I treat HIM with respect when he lies to me?
I can't get the image of them together out of mind-it didn't bother me much before because I considered the physical thing to be just "fun" and not a meaningful event. It doesn't appear to be so.
How can he expect me to be friends and do things once and awhile (which is what he said he wants from me) and yet lie to me?
What to do?
Really down.
-CS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How can he expect me to be friends and do things once and awhile (which is what he said he wants from me) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">O... If I had $100 for everytime last summer my H said this to me.

He means it... he really means it.

Now... I COULDN'T DO PLAN B. I was pretty good at plan A...

As I think about you, I wonder if plan B is for you... and I have to say, because of my reluctance to plan B, I am hesitant to recommend it to ANYONE...

If you can... at all... afford a phone conference w/ one of the Harleys... I recommend that... I had one w/ Steve and it was very good for me...

Hugs again,
Cali

Cali-I don't know what I am going to do. I'm still thinking. I am going to focus on myself now.
I avoided WH this morning and my mom did the kid trade. I just couldn't see him. I instructed her to act completely normal and to make no crappy comments. She called me and said it was the right approach because WH had never looked so guilty in his life. He wouldn't make eye contact with her.
WH stayed at my house for six hours today working but I waited until he left to come home.
I talked to a few friends today. They both said that I need to move on...that WH has told me loud and clear that the m is over and I'm prolonging my pain.
When does the pain go away? Is there any possiblity that OW isn't important to WH? OK, denial.
-CS
-

CS...

Please do not listen to your well meaning friends that "your marriage is over." It ain't over 'til it's over. Plenty of examples on this site and others to the contrary.

Yes. Do focus on you. As for plan B... if contact w/ him is so painful as to be emptying your lovebank... continue doing what you did today. Have the KID EXCHANGE be done by a 'neutral' party. Keep your contact w/ him to as minimal as possible. A strict plan B with kids is not always possible and you may have to talk to him about them and about arrangements for them.

Maybe a period of NO CONTACT would be good for both of you... (plus... it gives you the advantage of not being able to LB <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ...)

Then... while you are in NO CONTACT... lose that weight... get that job... make the 'appearance' of moving on...

You might go to the Noteable Posts and read up on Plan B... that might help you make your decision... Divorce Remedy calls it the "last resort technique."

Good luck... hugs to you...

Cali

I am so absolutely torn about what to do and how to act. Plan A or B?
The reason why I am scared about B is that I think it'll be over but I can do a B. I am much better at distancing.
I am scared to do an A because I believe my WH thinks "he has got me" if I am pleasant and he'll go back to his occasional family time and still see OW. The few times I was able to do A concerning him, he did become more friendly and called a few times. I am also scared to stay in A because I feel like I'm not moving on. I am keeping my heart open to possibilites and I may never recover and get on with my life.
Every single person in my life has told me "it's over." Even the ones that weren't saying it the first three months. I know I am not supposed to listen but these are smart people too and ones that care about me.
It's so confusing. I really don't know how to approach this.
We have a joint counseling session this week. I was thinking about canceling it since he's been lying about not seeing her but I may go and say-"if the A ever ends and you really want to make a commitment to see where we can go with the M, let me know and we'll see where I'm at."
Good idea?
His only commitment to the counseling was to improve communications between us, NOT to work on the marriage.
Please advise. MB counseling isn't a possiblity right now.
-CS

I'm a newbie. I have read much here and believe that the advice is based on sound research. This gives me hope. Looking at your situation, here are what I feel might give you hope. In the book surviving the affair, the case study spoke of an affair where the WS, once given the opportunity to spend time with the OM realized that person was unable to meet their needs as well. The affair eventually died a natural death.

If thinking about your spouse being with the OP makes you lose hope, think about it differently. Think about it as an opportunity where the affair could fail to provide your spouse with what they need. That gives me hope.

I think Plan A can work if we can separate ourselves enough from our emotions to provide a loving enviroment despite the fact that what they are doing is killing us inside. Vent to others, smile and no lbs for him.

The fact he wants to be friends is hope. Build on that friendship so that if the affair becomes more work than fun, it is you he turns to.

The fact he will go to counseling is hope. Enhanching communication can help you to better understand his needs and your own needs. I believe knowledge is power and the more you know, the more you have to work with to make your decisions.

Plan A is hard but you indicate you would like to save your marriage. This has worked for others,

Luci

My family and friends response to WH's interest in being friends is that it is his way of letting go. He is having a hard time because we have been together so long and it is his way of dealing with it slowly. It has nothing to do with interest in the marriage and WH has repeatedly said that.
Discouraged.
-CS

Luci-Thanks for your response. Good points.
I am out of whiney/sad mode and trying to put a plan together.
I saw WH for a second tonight when he dropped the kids off. He was distant and so was I. I asked him to take the garbage (he takes it to save money) and he said he couldn't cuz his truck was full. I said OK. I didn't mention it again. In the past, he hasn't taken it when he ends up at OW 's house. I guess garbage in the back of the truck is a bit unattractive <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . As he was leaving, he said, I am not taking the garbarge because my truck is full. I said, "That's fine. Whatever (in a decent tone)." He said, "what did you mean whatever? " I said goodbye nicely and shut the door.
Why does he continue with the excuses? Maybe he wasn't going over there tonight but why does he bother with these stupid conversations? He just spent three nights with her!
LHS-what do you think? Your original suggestion-modified Plan A. Friendly but reduced contact?
I am doing extremely well on not calling him. I feel like tomorrow will be the start of something new.
-CS

CS, I wish I had better advice for you... have you read Dobson's "Love Must Be Tough"? It's a really good book.

Maybe it is time for you to go to Plan B... if you can focus on yourself better that way... if the lies don't hurt you so much that way (maybe because you won't know about them?)... I so understand how that feels, to know you're being lied to repeatedly... I'm so sorry you're going through this... We deserve better than this.

Hugs,
JG

CS-

(I wrote this before reading your last reply, I'm heading home from work now and will try and reply when I get there)

Big hugs from me too. I wish there was something I could do to make the pain go away, just know that you are going to be ok, you are not alone in all of this and you have the best people in the world looking out for

If I could offer a few things..

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have no way to get a hold of him if I wanted.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Check your separation agreement, by law you should both have to tell the other exactly where you are and how to get a hold of each other. This is especially important if you have kids, and even more so if an emergency arises. I'd put the screws to him on this one, he needs to be held accountable, and if it makes him uncomfortable giving out his whereabouts, well… WAH!

Second, be wary of the advice given by friends and family. I am sure they are meaning well, but unless they have gone through what you're are going through, they don't really understand. They don't want to see you hurting and that is ok, but their advice may cause you more pain in the long run. Look, your not going to bail on this relationship and get into another one right away are you? So, its better to do everything you can so if it does end, you can walk away from it knowing you did all you could and that it wasn't your fault in the least. That's why Plan A is so important, its all about you improving yourself, not about winning WH back, but showing him and the rest of the world how special you really are.

CS, you gotta understand that Plan A is about improving yourself, it has nothing to do with WH (it took me a long time to figure that one out). In Plan A, you look at the things you did to bring the M to where it was right before WH had the A (the A isn't your fault, its 100% his responsibility, don't forget that) and then you make the changes you feel are necessary so that when you get back together, you don't fall into the same rut as before. Plan A also works in all other aspects of life, your kids, your work, family, everything, its all about self improvement. Avoiding the LB's simply prevents WH from using these LB's as a way to justify the A, find more reasons to say the M is over and more importantly, it shows WH that you are a safe place to come back to. But, as long as OW is in the picture, its hard to 'convince' WH that you are the one, that's why you avoid the LB's and let OW and WH kill their relationship on their own.

I can see that right now you cant take this anymore and that's ok, maybe its time to switch gears a little bit, give yourself some breathing room so you can recharge yourself. I know you still love your WH (but his continued disrespect is really killing the LB$) so I don't believe its time for Plan B, but maybe its time to severely limit all contact with WH so you don't get hurt anymore, kinda pre-Plan B. If you don't want to be friends, and you don't think you can handle it, that's ok, you don't have to do anything you are uncomfortable with. Set some boundaries concerning contact with WH and stick with them. Seems like having mom as the intermediary with the kids helped, maybe thats a route you can take. Keep doing that CS self-improvement Plan A and limit contact with WH to avoid the LB's. I'm guessing that after a week or so, you'll feel a lot better and maybe it will make WH take notice a bit.

Keep doing the counseling, but be sure that the C has your best interests in mind. If the C starts talking about ending the M, then find another one. Use the C sessions to tell WH about that you know about him and OW, it will be a lot less confrontational. SAA and Divorce Busters has some great guidelines on how to find a C who is pro-M.

Whats your plan for this week, CS? Let us know how you are going to avoid those LB's and what things you are going to improve to make CS the best there is.

CS-

If being with WH causes you too much pain and you are having a hard time avoiding the LB's whenever you are around him, then I would suggest putting some distance between the 2 of you. But in the mean time, keep doing a good Plan A, keep improving yourself and focusing on you and those precious kids of yours.

Just be careful that you don't slip into a premature Plan B though. Part of a good Plan A is having the WS acknowledge your improvements. If you break off all contact right now, this important opportunity may be missed. I think that the lack of daily contact is a major stumbling block we both face, your WH left right before DDay and my WW had me removed from the house via the RO. When we are not in daily, direct contact with the WS, it makes it hard for them to see our improvements and adds another level of stress we have to endure. Also, when they have this 'freedom', I think it prolongs the death of the A because it has put another level of isolation between them and us BS's.

So, for now, set some firm boundaries, not to control WH, but to give you the time and space you need and protection from his continued lies and disrespect. No one says you have to be a doormat or compromise your dignity and self-worth, only you can determine how much you can take. Just remember what your ultimate goals are in all of this. Give it a predetermined amount of time and see how you feel after that. Maybe you'll be able to start initiating more contact, or maybe WH will come to his senses. One thing that I try and remember is Michelle Davis's analogy to the cheeseless tunnels, basically if something doesn't work, quit doing it and try a different approach. This is just another life lesson for us, we need to be open to a lot of trial and error and not be afraid to do things that seem completely out of normal for us.

Also use the C sessions as a way to vent your frustrations and tell WH what you know about the A. Just be sure the C is capable of handling this stuff and can be the intermediary, that way it wont appear to WH as a bunch of LB-ing.

Let us know what your plan is, CS, maybe someone can give you some more ideas and opinions to ponder.

Hi. I am going to tell WH at counseling tomorrow that I am aware that he is still seeing OW and if he ever ends the affair and wants to work on the marriage, to let me know and that I can't promise that I'll be emotionally available to make the effort. I have been really limiting contact for almost two weeks and there is just more distance between us. It is not drawing him closer at all. What seemed to work was me being friendly and no LB's, but it's a joke. He is still deep in his A and I can't do it that way. I feel like I'm being doormat. So, I will continue to work on me and assume that my M is over.
I did get my separation paperwork to the atty.
Thanks for your replies. I just feel numb and hopeless but I do feel like I am moving on with my life and that's good.
-CS

Hey CS.. I just wanted to share what Steve H told me about implementing Plan A. He told me that I would feel many times like a doormat, that it is totally normal. Yea, it sucks, but I try to look at it in the positive way.

Sounds like you are half Plan A'ing and starting to implement some of Dobson's principles in "Love Must Be Tough".

Please don't assume your marriage is over if you are not ready, there are success stories.

Keep your chin up!