Hokay:

Let me see if I can wrap up our great weekend, how I'm feeling, and stuff like that, so that I can get my mind psyched up for our MC session tomorrow afternoon (my W has her IC this afternoon). I should point out that I think my W made a major step in trusting ME, by telling me that she's been learning to recognize and acknowledge that the things I'm doing for her are genuine - that I'm not just "putting on an act" for her.

We had a good weekend. Took son, two of his friends, MIL, and went to my W's grandparents' old home for the 4th weekend. With others along, we didn't have that much "alone" time to talk, and we spent a day fishing and a day goofing around and sleeping, so only a day working on my W's project - but that went well.

Didn't talk about OMW's H the whole time, though their A has never been out of my mind since D-day. (for those who haven't followed my story lately, I've "renamed" OM so that his W is NOT left out of his description - I don't want my W to forget that she was involved with a M'd man, because she seems to be able to ignore that little fact). My W didn't check email the whole time, either (but now she's off to work, and will undoubtedly do so).

I WAS able to "one up" the OMW's H by helping my W with her project, thereby not only demonstrating that I CAN follow my words with actions, but also that I can contribute valuable skills and ideas to her project, and that I enjoy doing it, too (and we had a good time working on it together). I did tell her that she doesn't "need" help setting her research project up for funding, but that I would be happy to help her write her proposals. Main thing was to point out to her that she is fully capable of designing a project and getting support for it HERSELF. But the secondary point was that she doesn't NEED OMW's H's "help" at all (and that I won't tolerate it, either). I DIDN'T say anything about that last point, though, because I wanted to get feedback from this forum and from our MC tomorrow about that. On the way home, W made a comment to her mom about some of the things she's doing on her report at work, and hinted that she'd be applying and comparing some of that with the work on her property we were just on. This stuff is related to OMW's H's PhD research, and so the implication was that she intends to have him work with her on this project of hers. I didn't say anything, because I didn't want to have a confrontation with her in front of family, but this really chapped my hide. So, my question:

What do I say at our MC session tomorrow, if anything?

As you all know, this guy still festers in my craw every waking moment of my life. At the same time, from my last thread, you also know that I believe I truly came to the realization that I'm far from ready for any plan B or DV, I love her too much still. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> But OMW's H rose very much on the radar screen when he tried to intice my W back into a professional relationship with the research opportunity nonsense. Remember, when he heard that I knew about the As, HE suggested that they never see each other again. But, when OMW threw him out, he cooked up this research opportunity to get them working together, ostensibly to help with funding on my W's research project.

My IC was quick to point out that, yes, his "offer" had a lot to do with our "heated" discussion weekend before last. He also suggested that it is quite possible that OM deliberately or subconsciously sabotaged his own M. He's been telling my W for years that he probably would be happier DV'd from his W. And, after all, their A lasted throughout MOST of his M. But my IC also pointed out that my W is very emotionally confused right now, and so I need to focus on the good things we have and do together, so as not to push her off the fence in his direction (especially now, when he's hoping that's what will happen!).

So, here I am. I'm continuing my plan A, walking on eggshells still, but wondering very much of the time just when is it appropriate to talk about the damned contact issue? Do I bring it up at our MC session again? I think our MC needs to be updated about OM's sitch changes and how that's been affecting US (not just me, after all). I also feel the need to stop my W getting her hopes up (if that's what she's doing) that I'll somehow just get over their As and tolerate them working together again. I won't. I can't. AND, more IMPORTANTLY, the offer was bull$hit and she doesn't need his "help" anyway.

What do I do? Remember, also, that I still feel like Kaiser has the only Cs in the country that DON'T appear to subscribe to NC. In fact, my W had said that her IC said it was "ridiculous of your H to expect you not to be able to continue contact with OM" (that was a couple months ago, but she's brought it up again recently). But are they just walking on eggshells themselves? If so, when do they decide that my W's feelings are adequately addressed and so it's time to deal with MY feelings on this? I feel like I've been "taking it" regarding accepting continued contact, for a long, long, time now, and my ability to keep my anger to myself is wearing down to a nub.

But maybe "taking it" just a while longer is exactly what I have to do? I dunno.

2long,

I really only see a few things here.

1. You need to continue to care for her and protect her. If you do this, I believe she will see your chances of success in marriage go to near %100.

2. You do need to tell her what continued contact will do. Problem I see is that it is so important to you that you may do it at a time when you ought to leave it alone. ( we all have this problem, it's not just you.)

Here is another angle. It doesn't really matter what her IC thinks, or what W thinks about contact. " W, emotionally this has been hard on me, so hard that I just couldn't ( or can't) take continued contact. Trying to love you and stay with you while you continue to have dealings with him would tear me apart. I love you and have been able to make changes for the good of our relationship but I am not able to do that. So, if that's what you choose, I will have to call it quits, I just can't do it."

It doesn't have to be about her and contact, it can be about you and what you are able to do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I feel like I've been "taking it" regarding accepting continued contact, for a long, long, time now, and my ability to keep my anger to myself is wearing down to a nub. But maybe "taking it" just a while longer is exactly what I have to do? I dunno. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, or says, ( as we discussed above) When you are finished, you are finished. I think if you could go along for another few months, she will better understand and accept your feelings, and more important, she will see you are the one she wants. Biggest question is not "should I just keep taking it," it is "can I take it any more." If you can continue, then that still gets my vote.

I still think one day she will repent and thank you for spending time on MB. She is still thinking mostly of herself, she doesn't understand what it will take to fix things. She is selfish. But then, weren't you too? Didn't it take an especially loud wake up call for you to get it? It may be time for her wake up call, but plan A as long as you can. The more sleep she gets, the easier it will be for her to wake up when she hears the alarm go off. If she gets enough sleep, she may wake up BEFORE it goes off. Wouldn't that be nice.

Bottom line, is you are still "wearing down to a nub." Don't go too far, figure out what you will do if it doesn't work. ( plan B, or whatever.) If it does go well, things will take care of themselves, if it doesn't you should ALWAYS know what your next step is, don't leave that part to your daily feelings.

SS

SS:

Thanks very much for the reply! It never ceases to amaze me just how "up to the minute" this self-maintenance has to be. I find I keep asking the same questions of my Cs and everyone on this forum. But I need to hear the reassuring or reaffirming points made, just as I need to keep working on myself (including rehashing what I'm THINKING and what that means and how it could affect my actions) constantly.

"I really only see a few things here.
1. You need to continue to care for her and protect her. If you do this, I believe she will see your chances of success in marriage go to near %100."

I agree. The most wonderful moments we've had have been right after I've said or done something that makes her feel safe - like on my other thread when she asked last weekend if I thought it was worth trying to save our M, and I replied, yes. When asked why, I just said, because I love you. At the time, I thought I was just sounding pitiful and clingy, but the rest of that day went fantastically, and every day since has shown me that she's still trying.

"2. You do need to tell her what continued contact will do. Problem I see is that it is so important to you that you may do it at a time when you ought to leave it alone. ( we all have this problem, it's not just you.)"

Yes, indeed we do! I am mostly concerned right now because of the change in OMW's H's sitch - he's clearly trying to intice her back into an A (frankly, it HAS to be this, because research proposals simply don't WORK the way he's telling her this will work). So, I guess I'm trying to "interfere" with the A (sorry WAT!) in a way, which perhaps I shouldn't do. But we've come so far, I'd hate for something so transparently contrived on the part of the OMW's H to undo the progress we've made.

"It doesn't have to be about her and contact, it can be about you and what you are able to do."

This is what I need to remind myself of before I blurt out anything that could sound like a demand! I will memorize this and repeat it to myself every 15 minutes between now and tomorrow afternoon!!! It's about my boundaries, not about placing restrictions on her (but it does require that she make difficult choices of her own).

"It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, or says, ( as we discussed above) When you are finished, you are finished. I think if you could go along for another few months, she will better understand and accept your feelings, and more important, she will see you are the one she wants."

When I resumed with my IC last week, he reminded me that I had set a time limit of mid-October for my plan A to do it's thang. I agree still with that timeline, because I still feel very much in love with my W, but very much pressured to make my boundaries regarding OMW's H very clear.

"Biggest question is not "should I just keep taking it," it is "can I take it any more." If you can continue, then that still gets my vote."

Okay, maybe I should start a "poll" thread, like SC did, and ask forum posters what they think I should do... Seriously, I appreciate the vote of confidence, as that's how I take it. This continues to be hard, to be sure, but the alternative isn't attractive either.

"I still think one day she will repent and thank you for spending time on MB."

I hope so. It would sure beat the heck out of being insulted for "wasting time with that bull$hit". On the other hand, one night last week she said that "you should spend that time talking to me, not them" and so I did (and that's why I've not been posting all that much this past week, because I can certainly login from our house out of state). We haven't talked about a lot, but some of the things we have talked about have been very good for us.

"She is still thinking mostly of herself, she doesn't understand what it will take to fix things. She is selfish."

This is absolutely the case!

"But then, weren't you too? Didn't it take an especially loud wake up call for you to get it?"

Yes it did, but she doesn't realize that her "emotional unavailability" during the past 12 years was not only not helping me open up to her, it was a great big factor in my withdrawl.

"It may be time for her wake up call, but plan A as long as you can. The more sleep she gets, the easier it will be for her to wake up when she hears the alarm go off. If she gets enough sleep, she may wake up BEFORE it goes off. Wouldn't that be nice."

Yes. And so my question, again. Is this what the Cs at Kaiser are doing? Letting her get the sleep she needs? I really need to know this, but maybe I should just ask my IC again. I did something like this with him once already, when I was particularly upset a couple months ago, and he suggested that might be what they're doing. But he can't know for certain, of course.

"Bottom line, is you are still "wearing down to a nub." Don't go too far, figure out what you will do if it doesn't work. ( plan B, or whatever.)

This is what's hardest for me. I have so many loose ends right now (biggest is this other job that I have yet to hear about), but then there's the house, what to do with my MIL and my son (still in HS). I've been afraid to tackle these problems, and so to this point I would have to say that I don't really have a definite plan of action if she doesn't wake up before October. I need to do think of one.

"If it does go well, things will take care of themselves, if it doesn't you should ALWAYS know what your next step is, don't leave that part to your daily feelings."

Exactly.

2 Long ... I emailed you.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And so my question, again. Is this what the Cs at Kaiser are doing? Letting her get the sleep she needs? I really need to know this, but maybe I should just ask my IC again. I did something like this with him once already, when I was particularly upset a couple months ago, and he suggested that might be what they're doing. But he can't know for certain, of course. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We could lay out the reasons behind this, from one extreme to the other but the bottom line is we don't know. If they have something in mind it will come out in the end. If not, wife will have to make a choice someday no matter what they say.

I would have to say that had you demanded a "him or me" choice on D day your chances would not have been near what they are now. Same for putting in a few more months of plan A. It's likely chances will be better then than now.

Yes, I give you a vote of confidence. Give yourself one too, it helps.
SS

SS:

"Yes, I give you a vote of confidence. Give yourself one too, it helps. "

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Yes! Indeed it does!

Pepper. Saw your email. I'll be careful!

Well, here I am again.

Morning after my W's IC session and we have our MC session this afternoon. I sense that my W doesn't look forward to this one, but she didn't say anything to me about her IC session yesterday, so I have a tough time knowing what she's thinking.

She asked me a couple of times last night what I was thinking, and I couldn't tell her the truth. DAMN. I realized this morning that I get this way before each of our MC sessions - very depressed - and that I didn't want to drag her down with me last night, so I talked about something other than what was on my mind.

Look, folks. I know what's right here. I know what I need to do for now to keep our M together. And, when I'm feeling okay, I do those things very well. But when I'm like this, I worry that I might say something out of anger or frustration at our MC session, and that feeds back on my mood and gets me more depressed.

And I have to get a lot of work done today. Sorry for the negative vent, but I have to deal with this and get on a positive note for this afternoon. I should go back and read some of my own threads again, before I go to our session.

I think I have to see if my W's "holding on" to OMW's H has anything to do with my not having heard about the out-of-state job opportunity yet (it did come up again during our talk weekend before last - she was comparing my decision to her decision as to whether to work with OMW's H if his proposal gets funded).

I think she believes that I may just quit our M if the offer comes and move myslef or myself and my son and DV her. She's actually said "you should take the job if it's what you want to do" meaning: opportunities like that are more precious than saving 27-yr marriages, you should just go with your spur of the moment desires. I've never felt that way, and I've also never felt that she remembers the times I've objected to suggestions like that one.

If I am asked at our MC session today what I would choose if offered the job, I would have to say that the decision would be very simple, as it always has been in the past when it's come up: My family first. My career second. If my family wanted to move with me, then I'd consider the job. But if my M and my family could only be preserved by turning down the job offer, I'd turn it down in a New York minute.

Similarly, if her family was more important to her than her career, her decision would be even simpler. Because she had an on and off A with OMW's H for the past 11 years, choosing to work with him NOW would make it obvious to me that her career is far more important to her than our M and her family. And, "protecting" the OMW's H is more important than protecting me and our kids. Remember, it's already broken up his family, so she's not even feeling appropriate remorse for her role in THAT.

She can never have an appropriate relationship with OMW's H because of what's happened. I feel like I have not been firm enough when I've said "I can't expect you not to see OMW's H at conferences, but I do expect that you not have any personal relationship with him". I should have said "I realize that you will probably see each other at meetings, but I expect you NOT to talk to each other, NOT to ever go anyplace together, and NOT to ever have any relationship with him, personal or professional, for the rest of your natural lives" (but that would have been a huge LB at the time, and probably still). So, the statement I DID make seemed equivocal enough for her to rationalize that it would be okay for her to work with him again, and soon, on her own project.

This whole process hurts like hell. But I promise to do my level best to keep upbeat at our session today. Focus on her good qualities, our good weekend, and the progress that we've made.

But, when will it be appropriate, if ever, to ask the MC for help in shooting the damned elephant? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

boink. Leave for first MC in 3 weeks in 3 hours.

Trying to be patient.

Above all, stay positive. Let the MC guide her toward opening up about professional contact. Bite your tongue when you have to, and make your feelings known when you can do it in such a way that it shows your wife that you are working positively toward reconciling your M.

My W and I had one MC session just before d-day #2 (3 months ago). It didn't go well, especially the aftermath. I think it may actually have contributed to my wife's initiating contact again. I continued to see the MC solo. He's pretty much done with me, and wants to see us as a couple again, but wants to see W solo first. She finally called and has an appt. tomorrow. She is making progress with her IC and hopefully MC will go better this time around. I think we're better prepared.

Let us know how it goes. We're all pulling for you and also for your wife to finally see the light. You and I are both married to intelligent women, and you just know that they can only tolerate being stupid for so long when they're faced with deasling with the consequences of their mistakes.

Oh, yeah...breathe in, breathe out. Breathe in, breathe out. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Hey SiSF, How ya doin?

"Above all, stay positive. Let the MC guide her toward opening up about professional contact. Bite your tongue when you have to, and make your feelings known when you can do it in such a way that it shows your wife that you are working positively toward reconciling your M."

This, of course, is the tricky part. I think I can probably do this, but the longer I have to with "no" progress to show for it, the harder it becomes to bite my tongue without making a withdrawl from my LB$ for her at the same time. And so it goes.

"Let us know how it goes. We're all pulling for you and also for your wife to finally see the light. You and I are both married to intelligent women, and you just know that they can only tolerate being stupid for so long when they're faced with deasling with the consequences of their mistakes."

Yes. I'm just not sure my W has truly faced the consequences of her mistakes here. Like, doesn't it bother her AT ALL that OM's M and family just fell apart as a direct result of her A with him? I don't understand this.

"Oh, yeah...breathe in, breathe out. Breathe in, breathe out. "

Right! Good thing it's involuntary!

So, here I am getting ready to head out for our MC session, and my W calls with a computer problem. I help her solve it and sign off.

It's amazing how a little thing like that can make me feel better. Maybe because this rollercoaster has such unpredictable ups and downs.

Anyway, it was nice to be able to help her out, and nice to hear her voice (even though she started out feeling pretty annoyed with her computer).

So, I'm going to be able to go to the MC session a little more cheery than this am.

Talk to you later,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She asked me a couple of times last night what I was thinking, and I couldn't tell her the truth. DAMN. I realized this morning that I get this way before each of our MC sessions - very depressed - and that I didn't want to drag her down with me last night, so I talked about something other than what was on my mind.

and from another post,
Yes. I'm just not sure my W has truly faced the consequences of her mistakes here. Like, doesn't it bother her AT ALL that OM's M and family just fell apart as a direct result of her A with him? I don't understand this.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2long, this is part of your depression, you are making withdrawals for her , from your bank, without her knowledge or consent. I think you should talk - but there are lots of "IF's.

Talk if you can set boundaries and keep to them.
Script it and keep to the script.
Warn her you will go away if it gets out of hand and then do so if it does.

" W, I am human and I get depressed sometimes. You will recall that OMW kicked him out when she found out about continued A. I have the same feelings that she did. I try to control them, and usually do pretty well. Right now I struggle. W, we have those feelings because marriage is supposed to be exclusive. When we find we have been sharing what is supposed to be for us alone, we are hurt. But more, we are angry. Since I love you, want to work it out, I fight with those feelings. That's why I insist on no contact. I can give you some time, but I can't fight this forever. Ever since I found out, I have been on the emotional roller coaster. Whenever you have contact, I hit a big dip. I have go get off, I can't take the ride much longer. So, when I get down, I am wondering if you are going to help me off this ride, or must I just leave the amusement park on my own?"

Again, you have got to find a way to share your feelings with her in a safe way. The longer you keep it a secret, the worse it is for you, the harder it will be for her to understand. She will expect you would have been more honest with her. Right now, you can just say you wanted to wait until she had seen enough change in you to believe you were serious about loving her. Later it may not be so easy.

Another reason not to do it: What if she won't help.
If she's not there yet right now, perhaps she will be closer in time. You can always bail out of the conversation if you have to. " W, this is getting to hard for me, I have to leave the conversation, can we come back to it later?' Then walk.
I do it, my W knows I will do better later on. She lets me walk.

Odile gave some very good helps on Spacecase's thread, that should help too, if it comes to that.
You need to get some things off your chest. Don' be so afraid. I think you can handle it.
SS

<small>[ July 09, 2002, 05:46 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

2L; how was it that you got your W not to go to that convention?

I was wondering if you might have a little chat with my wifey, and talk her out of her trip to FL next week...maybe since you have the experience now you can work a miracle! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

SS, SC:

Well, I wish I could say that I had a magic bullet for you and your W's trip to Fla, SC, but the fact is I don't.

My W decided on her own that it would be a bad idea to see OM so soon. I thought that meant she gave a $hit about how I feel, and I guess she does, but not as much as I hope.

And SS, I did set my boundaries at our MC session this afternoon. That was the good part. The MC helped me get them out, clarify them, and had me repeat them from a couple of different angles so that there was no possibility of confusion. My W GOT IT this time. But, like I said that was the good news.

I left the session feeling pretty much done with this M, and in many ways, now that we've had some further conversation about it and I'm calmer, I still feel that way for the most part. But I'll hang in there for a few more months at least because it's fair to her and it's no sweat off my balls to keep plan Aing for a while longer:

Things discussed in session, in nutshell:
*I let my W start the discussion, so she talked about the recent development with OM's research proposal and my reaction to it. This sounded more negative coming from her than I felt at the time, and you KNOW just how gone I was that weekend! I was able to explain to her and MC just why I was so upset by that bombshell development.
*I explained to W and MC what I know about research proposals to small museums and how without naming my W on the proposal, there's little chance that she would get substantial funding (Hell, I'd write her a check out of my credit union line of credit bigger than anything he could cook up).
*So, my take is that OMW's H is trying to lure my W back into a R with him. W scoffed at the time, but later admitted that it looks that way to her too.
*W understandably didn't like me referring to OM as OMW"s H. When MC asked why I did that, I said "because I don't want anyone to forget that he's a M'd man with responsibilities." W groaned. I don't care (I really DON'T).
*W tried to explain to MC that I keep harping on this "elephant" and expect her to stop caring about OM. I explained to her later (and several times at previous MC sessions) that the reason for NC is NOT to get WS to stop caring about OP, it's to PROTECT everyone involved from the possibility of a reigniting of the A, specifically BECAUSE WS's can't be expected to STOP caring for the OP. I'm tired of restating the obvious.
*W restated that I "wasn't there for her" or "did nothing" when she came to me for "help" 12 years ago, telling me she was attracted to "someone else" (wouldn't tell me who). I'm tired of going over this one, too. I did what I thought was right at the time (which turned out to be wrong): I said "so long as there's no sex, it's not an A." Not long later, they started having sex. THIS POINT IS IMPORTANT: I had nothing to do with the A, I had no way to prevent it without a lot more information than I was given, and there was simply NO WAY THAT I COULD HAVE BEEN "THERE" FOR HER 100% WHILE THE DECEPTION CONTINUED. And it continues, albeit to a much more limited extent, right now! No, the A did not start because of unmet ENs, it started because of my W's weaknesses. It continued because of the lies and deceit, AND unmet and unmeetable ENs. I know you guys don't think I should dwell on the past, but I am at a point where it looks like I may have to analyze what happened ad nauseum ON MY OWN, if I'm ever to prevent something like that happening again in to my next relationship.
*W actually said that "My biggest mistake wasn't having the relationship with OMW's H, it was getting M'd in the first place and agreeing to have sex when I wasn't ready." That cut to the bone.

After all that was when the MC asked me about my boundaries with regard to OMW's H. I reiterated that I can't expect them to never see each other at conferences. That's a given. I also said that I can't make any demands on what she decides to do about OMW's H, either. I DID say that if she decides to resume a personal relationship with him, that I will not be willing to go through the pain of the past 6 months NOR the withdrawl of the past 12 years, and so I would have to call it quits if that's what she decides to do. The MC asked me "what about a strictly professional collaboration?" I pointed out that this is a small museum and they would have to be away from home together semi-regularly, and that I thought that was dangerous. Dangerous because OMW's H clearly wants to resume an A, and because my W is susceptible to having As with him, because she has twice in the past 12 years. Our MC agreed that my W would be "playing with fire" even if this were to be strictly a professional relationship. I pointed out, strongly, that I believe my W when she says she doesn't want to have another A, but that the temptation could eventually overcome her at some point down the line. My W seemed to acknowledge this, but didn't say much, just that she would need to decide what she wants to do with her life.

Our MC asked if we were going to attend the Couples' communication classes that were starting this week, and my W said that this week was just too busy and too soon for her. So it looks like September, unless they have classes starting sooner than that. MC then said that she thought we were rehashing too much about the A and that our problems were more appropriate to our IC sessions, so she recommended we stop MC sessions for a while. My W agreed. I didn't think it's a good idea, but gave in ultimately. Sheez. I honestly don't know if this is a good idea that "any MC" would recommend, or if this is a major red flag re Kaiser. I just don't have the experience to know.

After we got home, I was pretty much figuring we were done for, and we talked about what was said. At first, it all seemed to be pretty much a rehash of what was said, but then there were a few positive comments and observations made by both of us that gives me a couple ml of hope.

One was that we both recognize that it's still very easy for us to misunderstand what the other has said, even when it's repeated and so the words used are heard. We're going to make the effort to discuss these things more fully and try to understand what the other is perceiving is being said, as well as what each others' real meaning is.

The second was when my W brought up my boundary and we talked about it. She said that I had misunderstood OMW's H when he told her via email when he heard I knew, that he'd be willing to stop seeing her anymore. She says he actually said "if you want to make this work, I'd be willing to end this relationship" or words to that effect. She said "so, see, he's not your 'enemy' like you said weekend before last, he's actually a good person." I pointed out to her (again) that I don't hate him, but I certainly have no desire to ever find out just how wonderful a person he is. And then I pointed out that his subsequent "offer" to work with him again after he was tossed is a transparent effort to entice her back into an A with him. She agreed that it's probably what he wants. She also agreed that part of her would probably want it too, and so she's recognizing that this professional relationship probably would never work. She still hasn't decided what she'll do, though, and I realize that one of her choices is to DV and work with him anyway, if the offer comes. I told her that I'm willing to give her time to decide what she wants to do, but in the meantime, I don't want to talk anymore about buying houses (yep, ANOTHER one came up just this past weekend!) or replacing my tired van with a new one. NO BIG DECISIONS FOR NOW. She agrees, but feels pressured by her sister and her mom (who knows about A and is probably pushing to get us to do things to distract us from thoughts of DV). So, I plan to talk to her mom again about that (I did the last time a house purchase idea came up).

W still believes that she's given up all kinds of opportunities for her family (me, the kids, MIL) and now it's her turn. This is apparently what she's been working on most with her IC. Look, guys, I know I'm not the most selfless person in the world, and part of my W is pretty selfless (perhaps too much so), because she always has had a tendency to try to solve everyone's problems for them. But who's fault is it, then, when years later and nobody's fully aware of what's happened, she's become totally burned out on being selfless, and is in major Taker mode. It's ironic: at the same time she's always been so giving, she committed the most selfish, spiteful act imaginable within a M - she had 2 As. I'd gladly have traded the split day-night personality for a nice, gray area W for the past 12 years. But I didn't get to make that choice or even substantially influence the way she and I interacted AT ALL during all those years the deceit was going on.

I'm going to ask my IC to play hardball with me when I see him on Monday. What's wrong with me? I honestly don't know because we've flopped around the communication issue so much and seem to have to ignore the As completely, unless we "do the Cing wrong". At least that's the way I feel with Kaiser. I know that the As are a symptom, but right now, since this one has never been adequately shut down, it's a major problem in our M. One that MUST be dealt with in some way before we can address the real issues. Dammit!

At least I was able to clearly state my boundaries at the session. And our discussion this evening, particularly about OMW's H's desire to renew the A and her perhaps small, but very real potential susceptibility to it, really felt like a ton of weight was lifted off my back.

I feel quite a bit better, almost like I can really start to perform again at work for the first time in 6 months. But at the same time, I feel resigned to the very real possibility of DV. No plan B. I don't think it would work with my W (but I may be wrong, and I would welcome some good feedback on this). She still thinks all this MB stuff is bull$hit. So be it. It's saving my sanity, and it's probably saved my life a couple of times early on in the game. I won't let the value of it be trivialized.

My W doesn't take our M seriously. Or she'd like to convince herself of that, because she doesn't want to be owned or even "protected." So be it. F**k it. Screw it. It won't be long before I don't give a flying f**k anymore anyway. And when I'm calm again, I will consider making that next big decision - plan B or DV, whichever might work the best. Maybe filing will wake her up? If it doesn't, I may be content to let her sleep in this stinky, sticky fog by herself, defiant to the end! I won't stay in a loveless M.

I'm going to start a new thread with my last post, as this thread doesn't seem to be getting all that much attention, and I think I need all the feedback I can get right now.