</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sing:
<strong>SC,

Talk to Steve again, bring up the FL trip & let him know how far down on that rope you are hanging.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will. Perhaps I haven't communicated this as well as I might have to Steve.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by kk2002:
<strong>Hi SC,
I am also unsure as to whether my WH (WW in your case) is still seeing the OW, but in my mind it's a moot point now. WH and I went to counseling when I first found out about OW in Feb. 2002, but never really got it. Never would be accountable to me, and still demanded his privacy. We went back and forth between my snooping, and discovery several different times. In May he left to get his head together, came home in early July for a couple of weeks. Left again for 2 days while he was still "home", never called me to let me know where he was or anything. That was the last straw for me, I could not put up with the back and forth thing (we have 3 kids) and it was driving me nuts. Even though I suspect he is still seeing OW, I have no proof, and no way to get any. I was going to do the P.I., thing, but decided it didn't really matter. I'm ready to start the Plan B anyway. Please read my Plan B letter, final draft on Gen. Questions 2, or on Plan A/B forum. Tell me what you think.
I'm definitely feeling ready to do this.
God bless you in your decision.
KK</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel the same way. It doesn't really matter if she still in contact; the lies are still there, unexplained, un-accounted for. I think I'm more convinced than ever that we have to leave and protect our feelings, and let the WSs do what they may...feel what they need to feel, decide, act, whatever.
If it turns out OK, great, if it turns out in D, OK too. We've got to know when we feel we've done what we can. That's all there is to it. Not a matter of time or anything that concrete...we just know when we're just not willing or able to do more.

SC:

"Any ideas about things she could do while in FL to help me feel that she's not seeing him, that she is, in fact, with our friends?"

Yeah, ask her to hang with them 24/7. That should be possible without letting them know why.

Co-dependency:

If you look up this word in the dictionary, you will find my picture! I don’t know all the answers, but I have come to believe that our respective WS’s have numerous issues and many are unintentionally directed towards us, and unhealthy. Some of these ways of acting are habits they have developed over the years to protect their sense or feeling of self-worth. Now we (as BS’s) happen to think many of these seeming common traits with WS's (like a total self–interest & lack of openness & honesty!) are unfair & even immoral, and very selfish, but none the less they seem to be very set in their ways & lack motivation to change. Now when we (again, me in this example) recognize that how we react to other people may be too accommodating at times, this does not mean we (me in this example!) are Weak or are Second Class Citizen. It just means we have internalized certain socialization skills that are not always healthy (for our own best interest) and that these traits can be improved upon! This way of socializing was not “intentionally” learned on our part! And it does not mean that we need to become Jerks! Just more balance! We deserve to have our needs recognized as well!!

As a recovering Co-Dependent (my definition – I do not believe this is an official term), I too have issues, issues that I have denied. I have come to realize that I too have developed habits that are unhealthy for me! I tend to avoid conflicts & am easy going & put other people’s interest ahead of my own many times. These can be good qualities – Easy to adopt to Christian values for example. However, in an ongoing relationship, IMHO, there is a big danger that if the other person takes advantage of this “good nature” and the other person happens to focus mostly on “their needs” and has the mindset of “get what ever they can,” (again may be very unintentional, just their way of internalizing certain socialization skills!)this can be dangerous for our own identity & feelings of self worth! If we are always bending to try & make the other person happy & they do not necessarily have a mindset to reciprocate, this is not good! This, I believe can then lead to where the more dominant person losses respect for us nice guys! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

We have to figure out a way to level the playing field. This is where setting “boundaries” is critical. I believe many times this seemingly strong person has feeling of insecurity as well, they are just built to hide those -go on the offensive -- a good defense can be a strong offense kind of mentality!). Many times this seemingly strong willed person had inner fears of being abandoned, for example. When given the choice they may in fact choose to change their ways. But until they “feel the fever,” so to speak, they have no reason to change.

I believe you have a lot of justification to take a stand on this Fl. trip thing.

When is the MB weekend ? – your W may be saying yes to that now, just to placate you (and Steve!) & the tension for now & give her more freedom or justification in her mind or in her way of negotiation to go forward with trip to Fl. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
In my cursory study of setting boundaries, I understand you want to make a stand for yourself & the intent is not to make this as a punishment or act of revenge against your W, but that you are merely stating clearly your position and your feelings & that the other person has choices, but that you have choices as well. For example, if our partner chooses to ignore our stated feelings & run off to FL, in your case, that is their choice, but understand, you will then be making choices as well – to protect your sense of security in the relationship & your feelings –- What are the consequences; what is your choice or corresponding response or action, that is a good question – I would think Steve can certainly give you help along these lines. Plan B kind of thing could be very appropriate – perhaps there are other relaisitic options that could have some impact on your W, get her attention, but not quite as dramatic-?? This is where Dobson’s book could be very helpful!

A part of Dobson’s book would reinforce the plan A thing as well --- that is a strategy to help our S develop an interest in us – like when we were dating, as an example -- what was appealing to them. A part of that is to be self confident, assured & Independent - able to stand up for ourselves & demand some respect – we have to in a sense ask for this – by how we act & set up expectations as to how we should be treated – LIKE WE MAKE A STAND & REFUSE TO BE TREATED AS A DOORMAT FOR EXAMPLE – Now the WS in their selfish mode probably do not really care if we, as the co-dependent or BS, are their doormat (it feels good to them –they are in control & getting their needs met!). BUT, we can tell them that if certain actions (& we need to be specific here!) CONTINUE, THEN WE HAVE CHOICES, WE DO NOT HAVE TO CONTINUE ALONG THIS TRAIL! We can change directions -- have you considered the 180 thing as another example?

Think about it – if we dating someone seriously, and they treated us badly, like verbally & by going out with another person, how would we react? Openness & accountability are natural kinds of things as a relationship develops -- again, if we were dating someone & they acted this way, would this give us warm & fuzzy feeling to continue to pursue? If the tables were reversed would our WW's put up with this kind of behavior -- would they just stand by & continue as if nothing were wrong? I don’t think so. If not, then this could be a source of their apparent lack of respect for us & our feelings. They (the WS) have chosen to re-define the relationship, so can we!!

Just my 2 cents worth – I feel for you man! Easy for me to say these things, I am not in your shoes & on the firing line! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

HH

Space,

This may be an over-simplification, but I think the real point in the FLorida trip is that it causes you pain that she is going because of the questionable status of the A.

It is beyond the point of relevance about the status of the A itself. It's your FEELINGS that are the point here.

Where I don't think adults should ever be in the position of telling one another what to do specifically; or "getting permission", the fact is that the trip causes you new pain. And that really should be enough for her to choose not to go.

Now that is my logic...CSue

SC,
I am way behind on your posts but I just read the last few. I think you are doing a GREAT job!!! You are expressing your feelings. You are not making any demands, therefore you are not being controlling. You just have an "all around" great attitude. Your ready for recovery and your ready for Plan B and the consequences that goes with that. Your in such a good place of SC recovery!!!!! (with or without W) That is the place I wish ALL BS got too!!!!

Anyway, it seems a natural way for your wife to show you that she loves you and is committed to your marriage would be to put aside her needs for now and forget FL until trust in rebuilt. Who in their right mind would choose self/friends over a hurt BS IF they were committed to recovering a marriage THEY damaged!!!!

Spacecase,

It's not lovebusting to let your spouse know how you feel about their behaviors while in Plan A. In fact, when you consider the 'Radical Honesty' concept, it's really essential that you do so. The major issue is with the way you express your honesty---you need to eliminate disrespectful judgements (very hard to do when your spouse is having an affair), angry outbursts, and selfish demands.

It appears you've been doing a terrific job and that your wife is noticing. I think you've handled the Florida trip pretty darn well---you've truthfully stated your objections and opinions, but not made demands. Eventually you'd like to be working via POJA-style agreements on this type of thing, but your wife isn't there yet. I had my wife take a similar trip right after her affair had 'ended' (and she didn't end it according to MB principles either). I was nervous, suspicious, and somewhat freaked out as well. It ended up not to be a huge deal (and it wasn't to meet the OM again)---but it's still a hard situation for you to deal with.

Ask her for the things that would help ease your anxiety. Can she carry a cell phone so that you can call her? Can you touch bases at least 2x a day? It's those kinds of things that will help. Overall, it sounds like she is making some progress. As Steve indicated, it's not a sure thing the affair is over (being an optimist, I'll say 80%). But he's setting up the situation for your wife to either enter recovery or reveal the affair, and she's going along willingly. You'll have your answer soon enough. I wouldn't use this trip as an excuse to whack her with the Plan B stick. Use a support network while she's gone if you need someone to talk to---you're going to need an even more extensive support network should you actually go to Plan B, so this'll give you a chance to set it up.

From what I see, you're not so far gone to be needing Plan B. It's for you---not to force her hand. This MB stuff actually can get harder when you enter recovery---and I think you're just beginning to experience that. Stick with the plan, and let Steve help you through it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Hurrian Hoosier:
<strong>Co-dependency:

As a recovering Co-Dependent (my definition – I do not believe this is an official term) </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It actually is a term, and it refers in general to those people whoi have a tendency to choose drug or alcohol addicts as their partners. In fact, Dr. Harley has an article about Co-Dependency in his "articles" section. Check it out. Also in one of my older threads, there's a long discussion about co-dependency and MB.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
...I too have issues, issues that I have denied. I have come to realize that I too have developed habits that are unhealthy for me! I tend to avoid conflicts & am easy going & put other people’s interest ahead of my own many times. These can be good qualities – Easy to adopt to Christian values for example. However, in an ongoing relationship, IMHO, there is a big danger that if the other person takes advantage of this “good nature” and the other person happens to focus mostly on “their needs” and has the mindset of “get what ever they can,” (again may be very unintentional, just their way of internalizing certain socialization skills!)this can be dangerous for our own identity & feelings of self worth! If we are always bending to try & make the other person happy & they do not necessarily have a mindset to reciprocate, this is not good! This, I believe can then lead to where the more dominant person losses respect for us nice guys! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think many of us are like this. I know I am basically a giver, or at least a "learned" giver, and often have felt that I'm taken advantage of. And this is not only by spouse and family but also by co-workers and others.

We definitely have to learn to establish and enforce our boundaries. Perhaps even more than other personality types.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I believe you have a lot of justification to take a stand on this Fl. trip thing. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree, and I'm going to.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
When is the MB weekend ? – your W may be saying yes to that now, just to placate you (and Steve!) & the tension for now & give her more freedom or justification in her mind or in her way of negotiation to go forward with trip to Fl. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You may be right, but I have the tendency to give her the benefit of the doubt, over and over again. I guess it's my innate belief that everyone is inherently "good", and that they will eventually "see the light" and act the right way, or at least reciprocate.

And here's the whole story; when she went to NY & FL the last time (4/28-5/6 or so) she said she needed to get away. I said fine, I think it's a great idea. I even said I would NOT call her, that I'd let her call me when she wanted to.
And that's what I did.
Then, I beging to take a closer look at her trip, and start discovering things that make me suspicious.
For example; she did not tell her "best" sister in NY that she was going to FL after visiting her. VERY unlike my W. This sis is familiar with our A.
She also did not tell another good friend in NY about going to FL after visiting them there. Very strange. This friend is also familiar with our A.
Then I checked her cell phone bill and found 2 interesting calls made minutes after I dropped her off at the airport; one to another "old friend" from NJ whom I strongly suspect is somehow connected to the OM (not sure about this, but this "friend" has also been secret, so something's cooking with him). The other call was to a rental-car company. She had not told me she was renting a car. So I investigated and was able to get a copy of her rental record and it went like this; pickup 5/1 1:26PM, return 5/3 10:30AM, 600 miles driven. Well, coincidentally, it is 254 miles each way from where she was in FL to where the prison is in FL; that would make it 500 miles...what SHE says she did "drive around, go to a particular mall and an orchid farm" would never amount to 600 miles. I mean 600 miles is a lot for 2 days unless you're driving on a hiway at average speed 60 for 10 hours! No way you could do that in a metro area in 2 days without being in the car literally all day long. And I know she wansn't because she did call me when she was with mutual friends.
Anyway, to top it all off, there are two 4-hour segments of inactivity on those 2 days in her cell phone usage. A dead giveaway that she's in the prison, since you cannot bring a cell phone in there. And the two 4-hour segments coincide time-wise, with having picked up the car at 1:26 where she was, driving the 254 miles, and being in the prison. Same for the next day; enough time to get back down to where our friends live.
So is it conclusive? NO. Is it VERY suspicious? Yes. Especially in light of her history of over 5 times being caught in lies about continued contact. And she still complains to steve that she does not understand why I don't trust her...

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
In my cursory study of setting boundaries, I understand you want to make a stand for yourself & the intent is not to make this as a punishment or act of revenge against your W, but that you are merely stating clearly your position and your feelings & that the other person has choices, but that you have choices as well. For example, if our partner chooses to ignore our stated feelings & run off to FL, in your case, that is their choice, but understand, you will then be making choices as well – to protect your sense of security in the relationship & your feelings –- What are the consequences; what is your choice or corresponding response or action, that is a good question – I would think Steve can certainly give you help along these lines. Plan B kind of thing could be very appropriate – perhaps there are other relaisitic options that could have some impact on your W, get her attention, but not quite as dramatic-?? This is where Dobson’s book could be very helpful! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is what I partially did last night, and will follow up on with Steve.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
A part of Dobson’s book would reinforce the plan A thing as well --- that is a strategy to help our S develop an interest in us – like when we were dating, as an example -- what was appealing to them. A part of that is to be self confident, assured & Independent - able to stand up for ourselves & demand some respect – we have to in a sense ask for this – by how we act & set up expectations as to how we should be treated – LIKE WE MAKE A STAND & REFUSE TO BE TREATED AS A DOORMAT FOR EXAMPLE – Now the WS in their selfish mode probably do not really care if we, as the co-dependent or BS, are their doormat (it feels good to them –they are in control & getting their needs met!). BUT, we can tell them that if certain actions (& we need to be specific here!) CONTINUE, THEN WE HAVE CHOICES, WE DO NOT HAVE TO CONTINUE ALONG THIS TRAIL! We can change directions -- have you considered the 180 thing as another example? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is very interesting...I really need to get to that book faster. And I have used the "180 thing" before, with very good results.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Just my 2 cents worth – I feel for you man! Easy for me to say these things, I am not in your shoes & on the firing line! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

HH </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks HH, very good feedback, and very useful.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CSue:
<strong>Space,

This may be an over-simplification, but I think the real point in the FLorida trip is that it causes you pain that she is going because of the questionable status of the A.

It is beyond the point of relevance about the status of the A itself. It's your FEELINGS that are the point here.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Agreed. With Steve yesterday, and last night with me, she starts by saying "I don't understand why he doesn't just let me get away. I need that sometimes."
I explained clearly that I understand that, and I'm totally in agreement with that; when I say I'd rather you not go to FL, it's not because I want to negate your needs, it's because it causes me pain, because I believe you're seeing the OM.
Especially when you have not even been able to be honest and open enough to tell me about the rental car and all this other stuff...what more do I need to feel suspicious? I mean if it's innocent, why not tell me she's renting a car? No big deal, I do it almost every trip!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Where I don't think adults should ever be in the position of telling one another what to do specifically; or "getting permission", the fact is that the trip causes you new pain. And that really should be enough for her to choose not to go.

Now that is my logic...CSue </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In complete agreement, CSue. I said I will not stop you or try to stop you. I will make you aware of how I feel, and why, and it is your decision to make whether you choose to go and make me feel like X, or not go and make me feel like Y.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by I LuvNprotect ME:
<strong>SC,
I am way behind on your posts but I just read the last few. I think you are doing a GREAT job!!! You are expressing your feelings. You are not making any demands, therefore you are not being controlling. You just have an "all around" great attitude. Your ready for recovery and your ready for Plan B and the consequences that goes with that. Your in such a good place of SC recovery!!!!! (with or without W) That is the place I wish ALL BS got too!!!!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have no idea how good it feels to hear this!
I wish I felt as confident or as sure of these things! I still have a way to go.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Anyway, it seems a natural way for your wife to show you that she loves you and is committed to your marriage would be to put aside her needs for now and forget FL until trust in rebuilt. Who in their right mind would choose self/friends over a hurt BS IF they were committed to recovering a marriage THEY damaged!!!! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You'd think so, wouldn't you?
But I think it's a bit soon for her to "get it" this much, so I'll cut her some slack for now. But she IS getting it...slowly, with reservations, with reluctance, but she's starting to show signs of getting it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by K:
<strong>Spacecase,

...It appears you've been doing a terrific job and that your wife is noticing. I think you've handled the Florida trip pretty darn well---you've truthfully stated your objections and opinions, but not made demands. Eventually you'd like to be working via POJA-style agreements on this type of thing, but your wife isn't there yet.... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, It's certainly an honor to have K say I'm doing a "terrific job" and "pretty darn well"...I don't mean to put you on the spot, but everyone around here has enormous respect for you, as do I.

I think I handled it pretty well also, and more importantly, I think my W began to see better where I'm coming from and why. It was a positive step.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Ask her for the things that would help ease your anxiety. Can she carry a cell phone so that you can call her? Can you touch bases at least 2x a day? It's those kinds of things that will help.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is precisely what I asked her to think about. After I explained how I felt and why, I said I would not tell her what I'd like her to do, since I wasn't sure myself, but that it'd be really nice, and certainly a welcome sign of trust, for her to think about how I feel, and do things that might reduce those feelings. We'll see what she says, and we'll add others Steve may suggest...progress!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Overall, it sounds like she is making some progress. As Steve indicated, it's not a sure thing the affair is over (being an optimist, I'll say 80%). But he's setting up the situation for your wife to either enter recovery or reveal the affair, and she's going along willingly. You'll have your answer soon enough. I wouldn't use this trip as an excuse to whack her with the Plan B stick. Use a support network while she's gone if you need someone to talk to---you're going to need an even more extensive support network should you actually go to Plan B, so this'll give you a chance to set it up.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As always, when I have my serious doubts, and many here push me in one direction, the voice of "reason" and "experience" comes through (as did Steve's) and says this is perhaps not the right time for Plan B yet...I think you're right. I need to wait until afte the "questions" call with Steve, and perhaps until after the MB weekend (If we're able to go), measure the state of the R, and decide how to proceed.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
From what I see, you're not so far gone to be needing Plan B. It's for you---not to force her hand. This MB stuff actually can get harder when you enter recovery---and I think you're just beginning to experience that. Stick with the plan, and let Steve help you through it. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe you're right. Sometimes it feels like I'm just so far gone, I can't hang on anymore. Then a few hours pass, and this changes...

About recovery; yes, I've seen it starts becoming more of a "gray" area, more difficult to discern progress or not, more difficult to gauge things...glad we have all this pre-stuff to go through to learn!

Thanks K!

<small>[ July 10, 2002, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

I'd been talking to Steve about Anti-Depressants, how I was feeling like maybe I need them (difficulty sleeping, hard to concentrate, no desire to do things I normally like, very little ehtusiasm for life, etc.) and he suggested I go to my MD and get them. So I did; started just 3 days ago.

2 Things; He gave me "Wellbutrin" because, he says, "we can kill two birds with one stone.". Well butrin is an AD that was put on the market, and one of the side-effects they found it had, was that people quite smoking when they're on it. They later released the same drug as "Zyban" for the stop-smoking crowd. But it's the same drug, same dosage.

Anyone with experience on Wellbutrin as an AD?

Also, I haven't told my W. I've just felt that sometimes when I'm sad or down or cry, I feel like she feels pity and feels bad that she's done this, but on the other hand, it feels like maybe she's staying because she feels sorry for me and it hurts her to see me hurt. Know what I mean? I don't want her to be with me and try to work it our because of guilt or pity, but because she loves me and wants to...anyway, I thought if I toild her I was "diagnosed" with depression and put on meds she might feel that....should I tell her?

Space,

I have been on Wellbutrin in the past and as far as AD drugs it's a good way to go. There typically isn't the side effect of no sexual desire as is the case with Prozac and Zoloft. And it is the drug Dr's perscribe for quitting smoking.

I was on Wellbutrin along with Prozac for awhile because they are not duplications of the same medicine.

In respect of radical honesty I believe it is the right thing to do to tell WW. You need to model what you preach. CSue

SpaceCase,

I was on Wellbutrin too. It worked great for me after I got over the side effects (dry mouth---cure was water; insomnia---cure was Ambien). The side effects only lasted for a few weeks.

I'm all for the complete honesty approach. If your wife has agreed to this, great. If not, I'd tell her that you think complete honesty is really the way that you want to go in this marriage, and volunteer this information to her. Let her know that this is for you, and it'll be temporary.

Thanks CSue and K for the Wellbutrin feedback.

I also told my W about it...she took it well, she was worried about me, asked why I hadn't told her, hugged and kissed me. Said "we're going to make it; even from this one." (A reference to some very hard times we went thru after we came to the US in '94, and we've always said that if we could make it thru that, we could endure anything...little did we know...)
She asked me if I was feeling better, I said not yet....it takes a couple of weeks, right?

SC,
I wanted to throw in my vote for honesty as well. We have to clean bothsides of the street with this.
BTW, I would come to same conclusions you did with the history of her last trip! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
It does seem that you are having some positive effects with discussions and expressing your feeling -- I liked it whenshe held your hand - it seemed she was showing some compasion for your feelings -- this is good.
I agree with what you said though, that you don't want her to stay in relationship becasue she feels sorry for you -- we do not look good in our self-pity party mode, that is for sure.
In realtionship to AD -- aren't there some schools of thought that depression can be chemically, or hormonal induced or whatever -- it does not have to be triggered because you are a weak person or something like that --- You may emphasize that you hesitate to tell her becasue you do not want her sympathy (just her love & there is a big difference of course!), but that you want to try ad be more comminicative and such.
If it's just a get away that is so important to her, why FL? It would seem lioke a reasonable comprimise that if she chooses to ignore the financial aspect & keep focus on "her" needs, how about a trip to the Jersey Shore or Hilton Head or Charlestown SC -- there are pleanty of resort area that are not so blasted hot this time of year! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
If we are not going to deaf com three or Plan B, can we not still be creative enough to stay ahead of her creativity? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
In terms of this snooping thing, I suppose attaching a tape recording device to your inocming phone line would be too obvious -- it is realative easy -- but also easily detected if the incoming line is a place she visits.
I also understand they have programs that will copy a computers email messages. Some PI I am sure could give you ideas. Do you have mad money you could invest for a PI consultation? Seems like a risk to find a truely good & reputable PI -- not the kind of thing you could network with friends for references.
Stay cool!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Hurrian Hoosier:
<strong>SC,
I wanted to throw in my vote for honesty as well. We have to clean bothsides of the street with this.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Righty-O. I did tell her.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
BTW, I would come to same conclusions you did with the history of her last trip! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Most people would! It's tough, though because sometimes confronting with all the details reveals the source of the info, so sometimes one cannot do that unless it's a very definitive thing. In this case it may be, and we'll see how it goes with Steve. Maybe I'll reveal it as candidly as I did here; if I see it may be worthwhile to lose some of the sources, I'll do it.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
It does seem that you are having some positive effects with discussions and expressing your feeling -- I liked it whenshe held your hand - it seemed she was showing some compasion for your feelings -- this is good.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The overall frustration with the slow pace of change/getting it sometimes leads us to ignore or minimize the small victories and progress. But I've slowly learned to look for them more and more, and to hang onto them for support. You start noticing these small things that may not have been apparent before.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
If it's just a get away that is so important to her, why FL? It would seem lioke a reasonable comprimise that if she chooses to ignore the financial aspect & keep focus on "her" needs, how about a trip to the Jersey Shore or Hilton Head or Charlestown SC -- there are pleanty of resort area that are not so blasted hot this time of year! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, we have a TON of friends who live in FL, that's why. As people began to leave latin america (where we lived before), the natural landing spot is south FL...and most of our old friends live there.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
If we are not going to deaf com three or Plan B, can we not still be creative enough to stay ahead of her creativity? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
In terms of this snooping thing, I suppose attaching a tape recording device to your inocming phone line would be too obvious -- it is realative easy -- but also easily detected if the incoming line is a place she visits.
I also understand they have programs that will copy a computers email messages. Some PI I am sure could give you ideas. Do you have mad money you could invest for a PI consultation? Seems like a risk to find a truely good & reputable PI -- not the kind of thing you could network with friends for references.
Stay cool! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, believe me, I've done it all; phone taps, hidden recorders in the car, following her, numerous internet research sites (amazing what they can find!), computer snooping of several kinds, I'm a veritable expert at many of these. Never used a PI, though; no real need since the OM doesn't live here so that kind of didn't need to be done.
The problem with this stuff is that if confronting works, then great; you've accomplished your goal. But in my case, each confrontation would reveal my sources, so she'd go further underground/change tactics, and worse, the confrontations never achieved their goal; admission, confession, end of contact....and were HUGE LBs! so I basically stopped. Now I do random occasional snooping, and mostly keep it to myself.

Space,

The docs say that it can take up to 4 weeks to feel better on these meds; but my experience is that I felt better sooner.

The "feeling better" is subtle, nothing dramatic; they way I've described it before is that it feels like the sun coming out after a long rainy day. Of course where I live...we're desperate for rain! CSue

SC,
I hear you with the revealing your sourse thing! I had similar thoughts -- in fact there have been a couple of things I picked up that I have not challenged W with that I have almost forgotten about in fact.

At one point I was thinking of digging back into our history (my W & my) and digging up some things about about susious things of 10 years ago & almost called a W of a guy -- luckily, a friend a couple people convined me that I really don't did any more evidence that she has some issues. The main point is how am I going to help myself and resolve marital issues.

I suppose you have shared these findings with Steve? It does seem really strange that you apparently have several pieces of rather significant evidence of which there could be any real logical explanation to refute the charges (for lack of better term!), yet because she does not confess, it cannot be a formal issue. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> It is like if she says it is not so, then it is not. I rememebr a long time ago, in a typical guy talk kind of setting, a guy saying that if you are fooling around and even if there are picutures, just deny it! Maybe there is some truth to that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I understand your frustration!
I am wondering that with your W's continued involvement in counseling with Steve, if she is beginning to see some light and what Steve said about it will be harder for her to contiunue to cover up will be happening soon!
I remember reading in a recovery book -- I believe it was "surviving an affair" there were examples of what each party was willing to do to earn trust. It was like the POJA & poicy of openness & honesty -- one was that the agrred to set aside so much money each month & that every six months they would hire a PI to do a formal check on the WS -- Is that a committment to earn trust?!!
The point is that if the WS has nothing to hide, why would they have such a prioity on privacy & such adversions to accountability & the like?? I know I am not telling you anything you don't know, but know that I feel for you, man!
I have similar stuggles. I am in chill mode right now!
Continue with coolness!
You be the man!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

My apologies AGAIG, I meant to respond and then got carried away, but I did think you made a good point I wanted to talk about.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by asgoodasitgets:
<strong>Hi SC,

You are quite a guy to be trying to save your M for your WW's sake because SHE doesn't realize what she will lose and you forsee her regret. Have you no needs at all? Is this what true love is all about? What keeps you going? I am not being sarcastic here but truly wonder how you have the energy to deal with your own devastated emotions and still be able to work toward building the future. Some might counsel you to cut your losses and walk . . . And I know you have a family and kids and 20 years of marriage behind you. Just seems to me your W might just need the shock of hearing that your life could go on without her. Just a thought. I do wish you the best. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First of all, I don't see me trying to save my M for my WW's sake only...it's for all of us. Me, Her, the kids, the family, the world. I firmly believe that most of what makes us good, or bad, or positive or negative, ethical, moral, comes from the family. From being together, growing up together, having your parents, sisters and brothers, cousins, uncles, granparents around. And it's a wonderful thing. In our home, we all sit down to a hot meal every night, the whole family. My W cooks most of the time, but I always help, and I sometimes cook, but the important thing is we all sit down together, eat, talk, laugh, make fun of each other, cry, complain, and that has held us together through some difficult times. Well, maybe not my W and I, but the family as a whole...primarily the kids. We have wonderful kids. The kind of kids other kids and parents feel they have to say something about. "Your son is so well mannered, he's a gentleman", "Mr. K, no other boy has ever treated me as well as your son John." And their hearts are in the right place. They have cried with me as we've seen Mom in this mess, they've handed me their paychecks when they felt we needed the money for bills....you get the picture. THIS is worth almost any sacrifice, any effort to save and perpetuate.

As for my needs; yes I have needs, and as it turns out, they've probably been less fulfilled than my W's for a very long time, and it hurts; but I'm a dad; I learned long ago to take great joy and satisfaction from giving more than I receive (my W doesn't think so...but that's another story) so the fact that my needs are not being met is something I can live with a bit longer...I have faith that if we get through this the right way, they will be met, and we will have perhaps the best M we've ever had. I have that hope, and it keeps me going.

I don't always have the energy or the desire to continue. In fact, many here will tell you I'm a see-saw...but somehow I've managed to keep going. The things I talked about before have helped, the wonderful people here on MB have helped more than they'll ever know, Steve has helped, the tears have helped, and somehow, here we are...10+ months later, and we're still here. The desire for a better R, a better family is a powerful thing.

And you're right. My W might need the "shock" of hearing that I can go on without her, or worse! (Hope not!) but that's what we're here for. To learn, to build, to prepare...and hope for the best!

Thanks for your thoughts, AGAIG!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />