</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by I LuvNprotect ME:
<strong>SC,
its really hard to tell. On the one hand she may be falling into cake walking. ...

The whole counseling thing and whatever else she is doing might be her just appeasing you (as bramber said). That is when they will do the minimum to keep you because they want both of you. ... I think you may need to get a more hard A$$ approach with your W, BUT since you are in counseling you MIGHT want to check with Steve first (he is the professional).</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hate to admit it, but this may be exactly what she's doing. I honestly can't tell.
In fact, after the incident you were commenting about here, there were others (described on this thread) and for the last 2 days, she's just been as sweet as can be! Very cuddly, lots of hugs & kisses, gave me a massage last night, and this morning she left very early before I was up and left a not saying "Good Morning! I left early and did not want to wake you. Call me when you want, OK? Love you!"

So I'm just at a loss here; it could be she's playing me for her trip to FL, it could also be she's getting some of it (I got the feeling after our talk a couple of days ago, she WAS getting it), it could be she's hoping the "questions" session with Steve will finally put all this to rest....I have NO idea!

In any case, we do have that session with Steve for tomorrow morning (6 AM!) so we'll see what transpires there, and what changes, if anything.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IMHO, when people hit rock bottom they are willing to do whatever it takes. She has not hit rock bottom and may need to. She has NOTHING to gain if you go to Plan B - most WS go run off to OP, but your wife would be EXTREMELY lonely if ONLY OM where meeting her needs, with him being in prison, it would be impossible. ... I mean, there SHOULD be a desparation...they have to WANT it bad enough. I hope you see the parallel in that story and yours.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree. I guess the question is: "Does everyone HAVE to hit rock bottom before they see it? or can we sometimes, thru Cing, etc. get them there without letting them hit rock bottom?"
I also agree the OM cannot possibly meet her ENs. No question of that.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Do NOT be moved by her tears. That is an excellent manipulation tool that women tend to use to get their way. NOT ALL women. But come on, step back and look at what she is putting you through.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hate to admit it, hard to believe that she may be "acting", but past experience has shown she is quite capable of this an much more...

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
You said in one post to me you were gonna cut your wife some slack because she is not there yet. BUT what is it going to take for her to get there???</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good question. I've posed it to Steve and he says he's seeing progress, to give him more time, and to be patient...so.....I don't know what it's going to take. I'll try to stay on Steve's program as long as I can...

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Steve talks about how the fog lifts and returns and lifts and returns. I think that is what your wife is going through. I think she is still riding the fence.

Does she know that it takes 5 years to get over an A? Is she willing to do the hard things and ride it out with you? WS, would love if we just push it under the carpet and pretend it never happend BUT it doesn't work that way. That is what I did when me and H remarried in 1997. We never addressed the issues.</strong>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm feeling like no matter what I do, what I have shown you, the fact that I'm here with you is not enough. That you are never going to trust me or believe me, and if that's the case, I think we should end this relationship." and I said "Well, if that's the way you feel, I don't have a problem with that."

She feels very strongly that what she has done should be enough, and she also feels that we are going nowhere because if I cannot trust her and forgive her with what she has done already, then there's nothing more we can do. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
The above statement shows she is not accepting her responsibility of what she has done and IMHO, she is misunderstanding the whole Plan A. She thinks the relationship should end??? I think in her mind she thought that was NEVER gonna happened because of your Plan A. She may be thinking that you would NEVER do that and she was using it as a threat to get you to cut her some slack. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree that she's still on the fence. There are MANY things she could do to show it's over, and show her renewed committment to our M; she's chosen not to either because she can't (it's still going on) or she won't (she still more loyal to OM than me).

She does not yet realize the diffculty and hard work that getting over it and rebuilding is. Not even close. And "sweeping it under the carpet" is what we did 14 years ago after her first A, so I'm not going to let that happen again.

I think you're right in that her statement means she IS NOT accepting repsonsibility, or at least not fully. And this is one of the things I've told Steve. It's wonderful that she said those words, now she needs to back it up with actions that show they are sincere. And until she does, I'm not swallowing whole.

I think she was "measuring". If she got me to back off some of the demands by saying "then the R should be over" then great. But she saw I was just as determined to do it right or end it myself.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
And as far as "trust and forgiveness"... The WS loves to throw those out there. My comment is always: I don't trust you because you have been untrustworthy. DUHH?! and as far as forgiveness, I think you can love and forgive them but that has NOTHING to do with recovery. You can divorce as an act of love and have completely forgiven them. IF they continue to go the same destructive path loving them is letting them go. IT IS NOT Plan A'ing. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very clear. I talked her through some very specific examples about this, and this is where I got the feeling she was actually getting it. I hope I'm right and she's starting to get it, and that it sticks. We'll see.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I think you handled the WHOLE conversation VERY well. You are doing really good expressing your feelings w/o LB. You are also doing good to let her know she is free to go if she chooses - that helps them feel less trapped. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks. I thought I did OK too. And you're right; she now knows I'm not willing to stay at any cost. She has to be thinking about that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Does the fact that she came to talk about it mean anything? (I think it does; she's seeing me care less and less...I think), any other observations?

<strong>It could mean that she may be trying to see where you are to see if she can take her FL trip. Kinda trying to make you feel secure so she can go see OM without worrying about you snooping etc.

I think the FL thing is huge and you should NOT minimize it. I think you are getting closer to Plan B ESPECIALLY if she chooses FL/her self over you. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're probably right on this. And I'm not going to minimize the impact (or potential impact) of the trip. Will be on the agenda with Steve tomorrow.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What if I plan it for when she returns from her trip? I can pick her up at the airport, drop her off at home, deliver the letter, and take off to my new place....I'll have the time to prepare everything while she's gone.
<strong>I don't think this is a good idea. I think you should be completely open and honest and tell her you are making arrangements BEFORE you do so she can make a better decision of whether or not she wants to go to FL.

IMHO, you don't need proof of continued contact to go to Plan B at this point. Her unwillingness to do the hard things (not being sneaky about computer/phone IF that is even considered hard) IS all you need to go to Plan B. Fact, WS had A. Fact, WS is not willing to go above and beyond to repair the damage she is done. Equals, Plan B. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You mean let her know ahead of time I'm going to Plan B? That seems odd...

And you're right about the need to confirm contact. Not necessary. If she's willing to learn and adhere to the recovery plan, great. If not, continues to resist, fight it, then it's not really worth saving...I don't want a half-a---ed recovery; not this time around.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Haven't you been in Plan A for 8 months or so? Keep in mind I am a HUGE Plan B advocate!!! ONLY you know when it is time to go to Plan B. But IMHO, she knows what she has in you with your Plan A effort, she will miss you if your gone and will be willing to do "whatever" it takes to win you back. BUT there are no guarantees, it is not a game, you MUST be willing to let her go and she may be out of your life forever. But at some point, that option just doesn't look so bad. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've been Plan Aing for about 6 months. And I too, am an advocate of Plan B; I believe there are things about recovery and M that can only be learned/assimilated thru Plan B. But that's a different discussion. And I also agree it will probably lead her to do "whatever it takes"...not 100%, but I think close.

And that, of course, is the key question; when do I give up hope for Cing and the other stuff, and go to Plan B? I think we have a few options left, and I'm going to exhaust them first. Not too long, mind you; maybe 1 more month.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Honey:
<strong>Spacey, Your wife was playing you .. or being childish.. whatever you want to call it! when she sd that little comment ... above.. about how you should trust her more! GET REAL!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> not trying to be mean to her or you...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree. The question is how to deal with it; Cing and letting Steve do his thing, or going to Plan B?

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I dont really think you want the m to end... so dont say it, if you dont mean it... good rule of thumb... now can I do this too?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well of course I don't want it to end. But I also want to be clear about what I think M should be, and how it needs to be for it to be worth continuing. I will not take my M at any price. Either it's done right, or I'm not interested.

As for you...well, you know how I feel about that!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Hey, I asked my h out the other day.... I know you might frown on that on evite .com and he loved it... try taht, and plan a dinner or something...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will try it!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
As for the florida trip... does she have reg. clients there? who does she go with... tell her you are uncomf... and maybe she can poja with you on the florida trips... I know she is not cooperating... ! but please...!!!

hope you are feeling better, HONEY <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. FL is VERY painful. Hopefully we'll at least get her some understanding about the pain from it, and perhaps even more...we shall see. THX!

SC,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You mean let her know ahead of time I'm going to Plan B? That seems odd... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, don't tell her it is Plan B or that it is a Plan. Read up on Plan B letters. Just let her know you are planning on moving out and getting space to think/contemplate divorce.

IMHO, Part of Plan B is moving on. It is emotionally divorcing. Your acting "as if" divorced. Your grieving and mourning the loss of your marriage. After about a year of that you will feel you've made progress in your healing and may be ready for divorce. You should go through the grieving BEFORE divorcing because divorce papers do not have healing powers.
This lets WS know what it will be like divorced, no more Plan A, no more contact.

SC:

Just wanted to let you know that I've pulled my head out of my own problem-laden nether regions and am trying to catch up on your sitch.

I think you're doing the right things. Check out hcii's latest. He and SCBI had some good ideas about being able to tell when it's "right" to go to plan B.

regards,

ILuvnProtectMe:

I want to caution you on some phrasing that I think is entirely inaccurate, and will confuse new members here...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IMHO, Part of Plan B is moving on. It is emotionally divorcing. Your acting "as if" divorced. Your grieving and mourning the loss of your marriage. After about a year of that you will feel you've made progress in your healing and may be ready for divorce. You should go through the grieving BEFORE divorcing because divorce papers do not have healing powers. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Plan B is about removing yourself from the daily effects of enduring an active affair. You remove yourself to save the remaining love you have for your spouse---in a primary hope that the affair will end within the 'normal' time period (2 years). The goal is to get to a point where the affair is over with enough of your love intact so that you can attempt reconciliation.

Now, if this doesn't happen, what you say is pretty much on target. You will (slowly) lose love for your spouse. You will go through the grief process for your marriage. You may even begin the healing process. When you get this far emotionally (and are there for a reasonable period of time), you're probably ready to file for divorce.

But Plan B is NOT 'acting as if you are divorced'. It's goal is not emotional divorce or moving on (although that is one of the logical endpoints). The primary goal is a self-protection mode in which you do your BEST to save what love you have for your spouse. You need to guard that---so that your spouse's affair has the needed time to fail.

I'm not picking on you. I'm just the (self-appointed) MB fact-checker... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I hear you K,
My only concern is that the BS has to be willing to accept the consequences of Plan B. The WS is VERY likely to leave and run to OP and they may loose the WS. I just think they should be ready before making this extreme move. PLUS, it can not be a game or used as a manipulation tool.

I also need to clarify when I say 'acting as if you are divorced'... I do NOT mean dating!!!

You are absolutely right about this:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Plan B is about removing yourself from the daily effects of enduring an active affair. You remove yourself to save the remaining love you have for your spouse </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But MOST BS do not see "letting them go" as an act of love.

Thanks K, sometimes my advise changes. When I see a BS being too nice and hurting themselves, I tend to try and encourage them to be tougher. When I see a BS being too tough (if there is such a thing!), I tend to try and encourage them to be nicer. I tend to lean towards the HardA$$ approach and I am really trying to work on that myself. I was nice and naive for so long that I went from one extreme to the other to be a total HardA$$. I'm trying to balance it out more but I am still working on it. The bottom line is I think SC has a good handle all around.

ILuv a "HardA$$" ?....nah, she's a kitten! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

It's great to have you around!

okay, maybe I'm a HardA$$ in my dreams!

BUT I AM a Plan B cheerleader!!!

Update - Today's session with Steve.

As many of you know, we'd added a session with Steve for the purpose of having my WW answer some key questions that have been on my mind for some time, and for which the answers I'd gotten were insuficient or unsatisfactory, as they did not mesh with other details/facts.

Basically this came up again as a result of my WW's plans to travel to FL yet again next week, and I felt that there were enough red flags about her last trip (4/28-5/6) that I really felt very anxious about another trip. So we discussed the issue of rebuilding trust, and within that context the questions came up and Steve was going to mediate the call.

I also sent Steve an email (transcribed below) in which I described my feelings about the trip, and details about the last trip which were disturbing, so that we'd perhaps also discuss this in the call, and either come to an agreement about canceling the trip, or at least setting some "rules" for the trip.

Well, neither happened; no questions, no discussion of the trip.

Steve first spoke with me for a few minutes, we discussed my email to him and my feelings, and then he spoke with my WW for 1 and a half hours!

Then he came back to speak with me again and told me this:

That my WW still has some VERY serious issues with this "independence" thing (or "privacy" thing) and that he spent all that time discussing it. He says she's "coming along", and is "more receptive". That he clearly called her on the carpet about the last trip to FL and told her that "it looks like you are still lying", and that she should be aware that if it turns out that she is lying "it's going to be her downfall". She said she knew that.

He is still not sure she's NOT lying. He said he was 80% convinced the A is over, but that he conceded that things don't look too good, and that perhaps a Plan B may be in the cards. However, he STILL wants to work with us some more, because he feels that she is "almost" there, and that he'd like the "process" to bring about the confession rather than a discovery/confrontation.

He feels our situation is unique in that he feels my W has a "real" problem with this independence/privacy thing, and he's not sure she's still lying, like in other cases where it's been crystal clear and he can approach it differently.

He also said I should not have said what I said about the trip and her decision about it, and to not do it again. (When I said I'd not stop her but to be aware of and make her decision knowing that going would make me feel X, and not going would make me feel Y)....don't ask me why...I just sighed and said OK, I won't do that again. I told him this was almost unbearable, that in her latest cell phone bill (7/6) I was already seeing calls to those friends who live close to prison again! But that I'd do my level best to hang on...he asked me to just tell her "that she should think about helping me with my struggle, and that doing so would mean a lot to me".

He asked me if I could still hang on a bit longer, that he was VERY much aware of how I feel and how hard this has been, especially in the last few weeks, and that he was doing his best to try to get us to some serious progress soon.

He then asked me to make the arrangements to go to the MB Weekend at the end of the month, that he felt this would be VERY productive and to wait until after that before making any serious decisions. I reluctantly agreed. I don't know WHAT I'm going to do while she's in FL again next week, and even worse, when she returns, my dad will be here and that will make it VERY hard to talk. The next few days will perhaps be crucial to me. We'll see how she behaves and what/if she says anything more.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>email from Spacecase to Steve</strong>

Steve,
I feel very strongly that WW should not go to FL again at this time, as a gesture of respect for my feelings, and especially in light of the details about her last trip there. I intend to bring this up when we have our next talk. She has continued to omit information that is critical and the level of trust has been going down instead of up as a result. Yes I recognize that because she is here it means something, and that she's making progress, etc. BUT she has done VERY VERY little in terms of actions to back up the words she said about realizing she hurt me and being sorry she'd done this. And if she goes, there should be very clear ways of behaving and communicating with me to reduce the chance of her lying and to reassure me of her honesty.

I have let her know how I feel about the trip, and why I feel this way. I also told her it was her decision and I would not interfere. It was her choice to go knowing how I felt, or not to go because of that. I also suggested that maybe after the "questions" session with you I might feel better about this, and asked HER to think of some things she could do while she's there that would reassure me that she's not seeing the OM. I don't agree it's the best time to spend the money on that, but that's a different story.

Regarding the miles, I earned those miles by having a very high-paying job that required 100% travel. For over 1 1/2 years, I only spent weekends at home and maybe 2 full weeks. This cost me plenty in terms of family and health, and it enabled her to have pretty much a free rein to have her A with this guy. It only took 2 weeks of being at home when I was laid off to see the signs that led me to the discovery. So I'm a little bit "jealous" of giving her my miles to go to FL, while I feel she visited him the last time she was there. And I told her this is how I felt.

Back in December, just 4 months after DDay, she said she needed to go and see him to end it. I very reluctantly agreed. She came back, I was happy, she said she was proud of herself because she was able to end it, bla, bla, bla. Just a few weeks later, I caught her on tape talking to him again.

This pattern has been repeated at least 5 times more since then. Therefore, any time she says she's ended it, I am VERY, VERY suspicious, and I think rightly so. Especially when she will not do any of the things she COULD do to demonstrate it.

I want to give you a bit more background on WW's last trip to FL so you have some "ammunition" when she starts saying that I don't want to let her "get away", and that she doesn't understand why I don't trust her. That is not the case at all; I fully respect and agree with her desire/need to get away, no issue there. The issue is with the dishonesty she has shown on these trips.

When she went to NY & FL the last time (4/28-5/6 or so) she said she needed to get away. I said fine, I think it's a great idea. I even said I would NOT call her, that I'd let her call me when she wanted to. And that's what I did. I DO and I HAVE respected her need to get away, AND her privacy when she's done it.

A couple of things happened that made my ears perk up; first, she did not tell the kids about the trip until a couple of days before she left, which is unusual and unfair. I told her several times that she needed to let them know she was leaving before she did it. And second, when she told me of the trip she was planning, though the dates were vague, she said she'd email me the itinerary, same as we've both always done for each other. Several times I had to remind her to do this before she actually did, about 2 days before her trip.

Then, I begin to take a closer look at her trip, and start discovering things that make me more suspicious.

First of all, several calls to some "girlfriends" she made at the prison during the weeks leading up to the trip. People who live close to the prison because their husbands are there as well. On several occasions she has stayed at their homes in order not to be in hotels. These calls remain unexplained, and I have little doubt they were to arrange to stay with them.

Second; she did not tell her "best" sister in NY that she was going to FL after visiting her. VERY unlike my W. This sis is familiar with our A, has defended WW's right to "privacy", and has been told by WW that the A is over. She believes it and I have not challenged that belief. However, letting her know she was going to FL, would have raised a red flag with sis. I think this is why WW did not tell her. She also did not tell another good friend in NY about going to FL after visiting her there. Very strange. This friend is also familiar with our A. Same situation as with her sis.

Then I checked her cell phone bill and found 2 interesting calls made just minutes after I dropped her off at the airport; one to another "old friend" from NJ whom I strongly suspect is somehow connected to the OM (not sure about this, but this "friend" has also been secret, so something's cooking with him). The other call was to a rental-car company.

She had not told me she was renting a car. Now why is that? So I investigated and was able to get a copy of her rental record and it went like this; pickup 5/1 1:26PM, return 5/3 10:30AM, 600 miles driven.

Well, coincidentally, it is 254 miles each way from where she was in FL to where the prison is in FL; that would make it 500 miles...what SHE says she did, "drive around, go to a particular mall and an orchid farm" would never amount to 600 miles. Both of these are close to where she was. I mean 600 miles is a lot for 2 days unless you're driving on a hiway at average speed 60 for 10 hours! No way you could do that in a metro area in 2 days without being in the car literally all day long. And I know she wasn't because she did call me when she was with mutual friends.

Anyway, to top it all off, there are two 4-hour segments of inactivity on those 2 precise days (5/1 and 5/2) in her cell phone usage. A dead giveaway that she's in the prison, since you cannot bring a cell phone in there. Both "dead" periods are followed by calls to her voice-mail and then to me. And the two 4-hour segments coincide time-wise, with having picked up the car at 1:26 where she was, driving the 254 miles, and being in the prison that evening. Same for the next day; enough time to get back down to where our friends live.

So is it conclusive? NO. Is it VERY suspicious? Yes. Especially in light of her history of over 5 times being caught in lies about continued contact. And she still complains that she does not understand why I don't trust her...she's quick to point out that I want to stop her from doing what she wants/needs, but VERY slow at acknowledging or accepting why I feel the way I do, and her "omissions" that reinforce those feelings.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ July 12, 2002, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

SC:

"Well, neither happened; no questions, no discussion of the trip.
Steve first spoke with me for a few minutes, we discussed my email to him and my feelings, and then he spoke with my WW for 1 and a half hours!"

This is interesting to ME because, although my W complains that the C sessions are too frequent, she also complains that they're too short! I truly would like to see sessions in the 2-hr range, myself!

"she should be aware that if it turns out that she is lying "it's going to be her downfall". She said she knew that."

Amazing. After what you've said about her history, it appears she's just so entrenched in this secret life that she just can't see her way out. Sounds like SH is trying to get her to get out on her own, but without knowledge of whether she truly WANTS to get out of the A. I don't envy you, SC, this would have me climbing the walls, drooling and babbling like an idiot.

This also tells me a lot about the Harley approach, and how much more directed and focused it is than what I've "suffered" with Kaiser (sorry Kaiser therapists, if you happen to read this, but you aren't HELPING ME AT ALL, DAMMIT!)

"He is still not sure she's NOT lying. He said he was 80% convinced the A is over, but that he conceded that things don't look too good, and that perhaps a Plan B may be in the cards."

Again, our K Cs don't talk about this kind of stuff at all. In fact, they avoid talking about the A unless we "insist" and then offer very little comment to get us beyond simply repeating ourselves. True turds.

"However, he STILL wants to work with us some more, because he feels that she is "almost" there, and that he'd like the "process" to bring about the confession rather than a discovery/confrontation."

I'm glad you have this kind of caliber working for you. What a difficult position to be in!

"He feels our situation is unique in that he feels my W has a "real" problem with this independence/privacy thing, and he's not sure she's still lying, like in other cases where it's been crystal clear and he can approach it differently."

I'm not always sure my W's "problem" with privacy isn't as serious as this, because although she will tell me about contact, she WON'T let me see the email. It'd be easy to do so, too. She could use our ISP acct for all her email, and I could check it. It should even be clear that I won't fly off the handle, because I HAVEN'T when I did find that kind of stuff in the past before she got her hotmail acct. Which comes back to: she must have something to hide, or why is she protecting OM like this? Which feeds on the craziness and I start climbing the walls, drooling and babbling like an idiot!

"He also said I should not have said what I said about the trip and her decision about it, and to not do it again."

And *I* should not have told my W that I would have left her if she had met OM at the August conference. ESPECIALLY because she had already told me she decided not to go! DOH!!

"He asked me if I could still hang on a bit longer, that he was VERY much aware of how I feel and how hard this has been, especially in the last few weeks, and that he was doing his best to try to get us to some serious progress soon."

He asked you this because he knows you can, just like WE do. I keep reminding myself that this is hard, but going to plan B prematurely will be one heckuva lot harder for me, at least. And in many ways, you'd have the thoughts anyway, so why not hang in there a while longer? Especially if SH is hopeful that he can make progress soon.

"He then asked me to make the arrangements to go to the MB Weekend at the end of the month, that he felt this would be VERY productive and to wait until after that before making any serious decisions. I reluctantly agreed."

Why are you reluctant? Do you not want to go? Are you already DONE, and just don't want to admit it?

"I don't know WHAT I'm going to do while she's in FL again next week, and even worse, when she returns, my dad will be here and that will make it VERY hard to talk. The next few days will perhaps be crucial to me. We'll see how she behaves and what/if she says anything more."

Just be your "hanging in there" self, SC. All you can do, really. I honestly hope she wakes up somehow and sometime soon. It's hard to imagine how this will play out, based on the history.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:

SC: "Well, neither happened; no questions, no discussion of the trip.
Steve first spoke with me for a few minutes, we discussed my email to him and my feelings, and then he spoke with my WW for 1 and a half hours!"

<strong>2L: This is interesting to ME because, although my W complains that the C sessions are too frequent, she also complains that they're too short! I truly would like to see sessions in the 2-hr range, myself!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is an exception. Regularly 1 hour sessions, although they DO tend to run long, and Steve WILL stay on as long as necessary. Often a 10AM session will start at 10:40-45 b/c he starts running late.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"she should be aware that if it turns out that she is lying "it's going to be her downfall". She said she knew that."

<strong>Amazing. After what you've said about her history, it appears she's just so entrenched in this secret life that she just can't see her way out. Sounds like SH is trying to get her to get out on her own, but without knowledge of whether she truly WANTS to get out of the A. I don't envy you, SC, this would have me climbing the walls, drooling and babbling like an idiot.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is extremely frustrating, but honestly, I get the feeling Steve is right about this. She has said in the past that "this time, we're not doing it your way, this time, it won't be me apologizing like it always has been" or something to that effect, so definitely, she's got some issues here that are more deep-seated than just the A. I think she really has come to believe that this nonsense IS true! That she's ALWAYS been on the short end of the stick...totally NOT the case. On the contrary, but also a mistake on my part, I have often let her get away with little stuff in the past, but then taht may have gotten her used to getting her way....I don't even know what I'm saying anymore...truly, pass me the paper towels, the spider-man suit, and the speech-enhancer....Oh, and pleeeease, can I have another dose of Wellbutrin?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>This also tells me a lot about the Harley approach, and how much more directed and focused it is than what I've "suffered" with Kaiser (sorry Kaiser therapists, if you happen to read this, but you aren't HELPING ME AT ALL, DAMMIT!)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know what? At the beginning of Michelle Weiner-Davis' "Divorce Remedy" book, there's a chapter on why a great portion of the community of therapists/shrinks is NOT trained or capable of handling infidelity cases, and she makes a very good case for finding the "right" therapist. In fact, Harley's ALSO got an article on that here at the web site. I agree with her after having been to 2 others before Steve. Clueless!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"He is still not sure she's NOT lying. He said he was 80% convinced the A is over, but he conceded that things don't look too good, and that perhaps a Plan B may be in the cards."

<strong>Again, our K Cs don't talk about this kind of stuff at all. In fact, they avoid talking about the A unless we "insist" and then offer very little comment to get us beyond simply repeating ourselves. True turds.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, it's VERY clear with Steve that there can be no recovery until the A id over. VERY CLEAR!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"However, he STILL wants to work with us some more, because he feels that she is "almost" there, and that he'd like the "process" to bring about the confession rather than a discovery/confrontation."

<strong>I'm glad you have this kind of caliber working for you. What a difficult position to be in!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is VERY difficult, and very frustrating, and very confusing. But I DO see the logic behind this...I don't LIKE it, but I see the logic in terms of not creating such a contentious environment for the work that will have to come afterwards.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"He feels our situation is unique in that he feels my W has a "real" problem with this independence/privacy thing, and he's not sure she's still lying, like in other cases where it's been crystal clear and he can approach it differently."

<strong>I'm not always sure my W's "problem" with privacy isn't as serious as this, because although she will tell me about contact, she WON'T let me see the email. It'd be easy to do so, too. She could use our ISP acct for all her email, and I could check it. It should even be clear that I won't fly off the handle, because I HAVEN'T when I did find that kind of stuff in the past before she got her hotmail acct. Which comes back to: she must have something to hide, or why is she protecting OM like this? Which feeds on the craziness and I start climbing the walls, drooling and babbling like an idiot!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I don't know. Look, from my perspective, the fact that she tells you about it, and can talk about the A and the OM is FAR, FAR more than what my W is willing to do...so count your blessings!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"He also said I should not have said what I said about the trip and her decision about it, and to not do it again."

<strong>And *I* should not have told my W that I would have left her if she had met OM at the August conference. ESPECIALLY because she had already told me she decided not to go! DOH!!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sometimes I get totally confused. I thought (and for that matter so did most of the forum) that this was a good "boundary" to establish, and a good thing to say....live, learn, confusion sets in... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"He asked me if I could still hang on a bit longer, that he was VERY much aware of how I feel and how hard this has been, especially in the last few weeks, and that he was doing his best to try to get us to some serious progress soon."

<strong>He asked you this because he knows you can, just like WE do. I keep reminding myself that this is hard, but going to plan B prematurely will be one heckuva lot harder for me, at least. And in many ways, you'd have the thoughts anyway, so why not hang in there a while longer? Especially if SH is hopeful that he can make progress soon.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, yes....I'm there....gimme more drugs! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"He then asked me to make the arrangements to go to the MB Weekend at the end of the month, that he felt this would be VERY productive and to wait until after that before making any serious decisions. I reluctantly agreed."

<strong>Why are you reluctant? Do you not want to go? Are you already DONE, and just don't want to admit it?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm NOT reluctant about going to the MB Weekend; that is excellent. I'm reluctant to let things go on so long...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"I don't know WHAT I'm going to do while she's in FL again next week, and even worse, when she returns, my dad will be here and that will make it VERY hard to talk. The next few days will perhaps be crucial to me. We'll see how she behaves and what/if she says anything more."

<strong>Just be your "hanging in there" self, SC. All you can do, really. I honestly hope she wakes up somehow and sometime soon. It's hard to imagine how this will play out, based on the history. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will somehow manage, I guess. I'll tell you; this HAS to be hurting me in ways I probably cannot even imagine right now. I'll probably need a few years of therapy AFTER we recover, just to get over the recovery! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> If, that is, I can manage to recover with all these "ticks" I've developed! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ July 12, 2002, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

Sc,

Surely you cant hold on a few more weeks & go to the MB wkend if your WW is still willing to go.

You been doing this a long time but what will it hurt you to hang on a little bit longer. Hanging on hurts, I was the queen of hanging on just a little longer.

You know recovery is tough or so I have been told but divorce is worse that I know. I hang on till that wkend if I was you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sing:
<strong>Sc,

Surely you can hold on a few more weeks & go to the MB wkend if your WW is still willing to go.

You been doing this a long time but what will it hurt you to hang on a little bit longer. Hanging on hurts, I was the queen of hanging on just a little longer.

You know recovery is tough or so I have been told but divorce is worse that I know. I hang on till that wkend if I was you.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will, Sing. I'm squaring the reservations right now...and amazingly, she's still VERY enthusiastic about going, even though we have tickets to Celia Cruz that weekend here...we'll have to find friends to give them to. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

SC wrote:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 2 Things; He gave me "Wellbutrin" because, he says, "we can kill two birds with one stone.". Well butrin is an AD that was put on the market, and one of the side-effects they found it had, was that people quite smoking when they're on it. They later released the same drug as "Zyban" for the stop-smoking crowd. But it's the same drug, same dosage.

Anyone with experience on Wellbutrin as an AD?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SC,

Doc put me on Wellbutrin last summer. I had been working a job that was keeping me busy 70-80+ hrs/wk for several months. Slowly slipped into depression. This was in the time frame of my WW's A (Although D-Day wasn't until June of this year).

At 41, I haven't felt this good, and by that I mean having more drive and incentive than I have had in a long time. For the past SEVERAL years I was on an "on-call" job, and I truly think I was ever so slowly sinking into depression, so slowly that it was not obvious until I almost hit bottom.

My Doc said that usual treatment is for 8-9 months. I have had no side effects at all. As a matter of fact, I talked Doc into letting me stay on them. They have been a BIG help for me, notwithstanding the A.

As to the "Kill 2 birds" theory, I wouldn't know about that. But let me explain this, and it is ironic........I quit smoking "cold-turkey" in March, 2001. Had been smoking since a teenager. Never had the desire to quit, and really enjoyed them. Well....4 months later was when the depression kicked in. Doc said that stopping smoking would sometimes generate depression in a lot of people, as nicotine is an AD. Couple that with the job stress, and my depression then ignited big-time! But....stupid ol' me started again, because it helped the depression (or so I thought). When I initially quit, it was easier than I thought it would be. Really amazed myself.

Doc told me that since I had now begun the WB, I ought to quit again. But....that bout of DP scared the hell out of me so bad, I am afraid to try to quit, because I am somewhat convinced that it contributed a lot to the DP I suffered.

Man....did I get off-topic here or what?

To make a long story short, the Wellbutrin has been a life-saver for me, and I would take them until I die if they will let me. WB has the least side effect on SF than the other AD's. Not much benefit to me now, though, since I am in the process of DV <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

So....my vote is go for the WB. The first week or so I could tell that I wouldn't sleep as much, but really didn't feel "sleep-deprived" though.

hcii

2Long quoted:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think you're doing the right things. Check out hcii's latest. He and SCBI had some good ideas about being able to tell when it's "right" to go to plan B. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Geez, 2Long.....Now ya gonna make my head "2Big" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I'm in the DV direction, remember? I'm rich in experience, but probably poor on advice.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

hcii

Thanks HCII; do not feel you are "advice-poor"; on the contrary, all our mistakes and all our failures are what we learn the most from.

And perhaps, in time, you may discover that ending in DV was NOT a failure. You have learned, grown, and will always be the better person for it.

By 2Long: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> True turds. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">.... I told you "flat turd". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Spacecadet....

I have never understood this secrecy business that your WW struggles with. I have never been a very secretive person. Plus, I am a terrible liar, and a lousy poker player to boot!

I have a theory however ... I think someone who thinks secrecy is essential for them to feel safe and comfortable in their "personal space" often learned this "secrecy is protection" during childhood. Somehow they learned that being open at all times "hurts" ... and they become experts at self-protection by covering themselves with a shroud of secrets .... this keeps them from feeling vulnerable ... but, it is not good for true intimacy.

"If you can't see me , you can't hurt me." Hiding from danger makes sense. If someone has experienced intimacy and openness as dangerous somehow ... it begins to be a habitual pattern of behaviour.

YOU are doing VERY well!!!! <high five >

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>Spacecadet....

I have a theory however ... I think someone who thinks secrecy is essential for them to feel safe and comfortable in their "personal space" often learned this "secrecy is protection" during childhood. Somehow they learned that being open at all times "hurts" ... and they become experts at self-protection by covering themselves with a shroud of secrets .... this keeps them from feeling vulnerable ... but, it is not good for true intimacy.

"If you can't see me , you can't hurt me." Hiding from danger makes sense. If someone has experienced intimacy and openness as dangerous somehow ... it begins to be a habitual pattern of behaviour.

YOU are doing VERY well!!!! <high five >

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You may be right Pep; the odd thing is that it doesn't SEEM to me to be a trait that she's always had. It feels like she acquired it somewhere along the way.

I have known my W since we were 14 years old. We dated on and off, then lived in different countries, she married another man, we saw each other once when she was married, in CA, nothing happened, she then divorced sometime later, and we hooked up again some time after that, and got married when we were 22. Have been married for almost 21 years. And never during all this time did I ever feel she was hiding things from me.

Perhaps she had the trait, but felt safe with me so she didn't hide things, and then started because she felt I did not make her safe anymore, maybe sometime around her 1st A 14 yers ago...I just don't know...it MAY be that this is what happened...

In any case, Steve feels that it IS a real issue, and may not be only related to the A, although the A has obviously made it worse. I personally do not feel that way...I FEEL it's the A that had brought this about...but I concede I may be wrong, and I'm willing to give Steve the benefit of the doubt and let him do his thing. For a little bit longer, anyway.

Thanks Pep! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<small>[ July 13, 2002, 10:16 AM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

Mr. Pepper used to be very secretive .... way before the A. He grew up in a home where his dad was very secretive. When H was a little boy, his dad would go to a bar to drink, leave H alone in the truck with a coke and a bag of chips (sometimes for 2 hours!) ... and then tell H that it was a secret, and that "mom shouldn't know where we've been".

H's dad died a few years ago .... while going through his dad's personal stuff ... H discovered that his dad had over $40,000 IN CASH stashed in a tool box on his closet floor... a secret stash. This revealed secret hurt H's mom during her grieving period ... she was so angry with her deceased H while she was saddened by his death.

One of our early marriage disasters... (we're married 21 years last May)... H went and bought a new car without discussing it with me. (We called it our "divorce car" until we finally sold it). H would make unilateral decisions that affected both of us. H lived like a single man in some ways. He is an only child, and I also think this has something to do with making unilateral decisions as an adult. We now do POJA ... and we are the better for it!

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

I think what happened to us that created first the "separation of activities" and later perhaps the secrecy in my W was that we had many things about which we could not reach agreement on.

Money is one. We went through some very difficult times when we arrived in the US in '94, and ended up in bankruptcy in '96. Naturally this forced a great many sacrifices for both of us, and we tried to shield the children form this as much as possible. We both worked, we both gave up all kinds of things, my W sold her jewelery (and she had some very nice stuff), etc. etc.

As we began to come out of this, I got better and better jobs, she did too, we began to see the light of day again. I tended to still be very conservative, reluctant to spend on anything "unecessary", saving as much as possible, and she wanted to "make up for the lost time", recover her jewelery, have fun, clothes, you know.

We were unable to find a happy medium. My fault as much as hers. So we ended up just managing our things separately. I took care of all the house stuff, she really had no set expenses she paid. So she just did her thing, getting what she wanted, I saved and paid the bills.

It's possible that at some point 2 things happened; she felt that I was unreasonable and did not love her because I would no get her what she wanted, or I would frown upon her getting it. I, on the other hand, felt it was too unfair and self-centered NOT to somehow participate in the expenses and the savings, and probably began to NOT do for her some of the things she wanted, as punishment for her not being more flexible in this. And she did the same, and so on. The second thing that probably happened was that she started feeling guilty of not helping with the expenses, saving for college, and began to hide her finances and her purchases...

It could be that this, together with her not feeling I loved her, and my not fulfilling her ENs thru withdrawing my efforts to please her in retaliation for her behavior, coupled with the "secrets" she now had, were the start of this spiral which has led us to where we are today.

Plausible? Possible?