Oops, sorry about that Spacecase....I missed the whole last page of posts before replying.

I'm sorry to hear about your grandfather's passing. May your memories bring you comfort in your grief.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by YetAgain:
<strong>Hi Spacecase,

Right now I feel like I'm a WS-wannabe. Don't worry...I won't be going there but it does kinda put me in a position to read your Plan B letter from a perspective that might be similar to your WS's....you know, from Taker mode <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

If you're game....with no hard feelings <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .....just let me know.

P.S. If it were my FWH asking me to join in with Cing with SH, I would probably have backed out too...you know, the Taker mode thing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> BUT....I have an idea about a certain kind of *invitation* that might persuade participation next week!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm game, YA, what do you have in mind?

Thanks for your message about grandpa. Thanks.

Ok Spacecase....I will be back later to post after thinking a little bit over a cup of coffee.

Space ... I like this edition much better. Easy to read, and difficult to misunderstand.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

*~*~ To live in the hearts we leave behind is not to die ~*~*

~~~~Peace be with your Spacecase~~~~

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>*~*~ To live in the hearts we leave behind is not to die ~*~*

~~~~Peace be with your Spacecase~~~~</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks, Pep...today just feels like my world is crumbling all around me...not the best of days.
Thank you.

Hi SC. Beautiful letter. Makes things quite clear, and in such a compassionate and responsible way. Good luck and God bless.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 1st salvo;
Porpose to W that we DO attend the MB Weekend this coming weekend. Why the change of heart from last week? Because Steve, (I think rightly), believes is that there are 2 elements to this problem; 1 is her desire and love for the OM, and the other one is her being unsure if she and I could ever really fall in love with each other again in the way she feels about the OM.
The seminar will not do anything about the first part, BUT it can do a lot for the second part. By being exposed to all the principles, presented by Papa Harley, and with Steve around and all these couples working together, she will intellectually understand and grasp all of this much better, and begin to see (intellectually, again) that the complete package, put together, is very logical, makes sense, and is true. And obviously, before one can embrace the concepts emotionally, one must understand and embrace them intellectually.

So he believes that I should again invite her to the weekend, let her know that going does not constitute a committment to our marriage, but rather a way to help her make up her mind whether to committ or not. No strings attached, so to speak.

If she accepts, great! Off we go, and come next session with Steve, we have the seminar under our belts, and a chance to speak with Steve directly, meet papa Harley, etc. etc. Not to mention "the Mall of the Americas", which I'm sure she'll LOVE!! (Weird how my wife is like that; I'm sure most of the women here don't feel that way about malls at all!!!)

2nd salvo; If she does not accept, them I'm to ask her; "OK, then what would you like to do?" Since she'll probably not have an answer, I should go on with; "Well, what we're doing up to now, going day by day, doesn't seem to be working so I think we have a couple of options; one, we can continue to talk to Steve; he believes he has a sure-fire way to turn this marriage around. Or two, we can do something else that you believe would work. Any ideas here?"

Since, once again, she'll probably have no answer, I should confirm; "OK, so I take it you want to committ to the unstructured approach, you're committing to the day-by-day approcah we've been following?" and then "OK, this is just so that I understand what you'd like to do"

Then, I am to hold onto my hat until the next session with Steve on Tuesday.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The first salvo was fired, and she did not respond to it. Definitely feels "this is not the right time" for the seminar. "I want to go", she says, "but not right now."

The answer I was hoping against, but the expected one.

So I have the second salvo to execute...she sure seems determined to have me burn all my shots...

Well, the "second salvo" was delivered, and naturally, she has no answers of her own...she did agree to "continue to work with Steve", so I guess this is the best possible outcome for this second shot.

I hope she'll not back down from that before our next appointment next Tuesday.

I had to cancel all our travel arrangements to the MB Weeekend, but I heard the next one may be in San Francisco....SOOOOOOO, I KNOW she'll love that! (We spent some time there many, many years ago when I was in HS...) so maybe, just maybe, that'll be enticement enough!

For now, just biding my time until our meeting with Steve, and hope for the best!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by YetAgain:
<strong>Hi Spacecase,

Right now I feel like I'm a WS-wannabe. Don't worry...I won't be going there but it does kinda put me in a position to read your Plan B letter from a perspective that might be similar to your WS's....you know, from Taker mode <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

If you're game....with no hard feelings <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .....just let me know.

P.S. If it were my FWH asking me to join in with Cing with SH, I would probably have backed out too...you know, the Taker mode thing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> BUT....I have an idea about a certain kind of *invitation* that might persuade participation next week!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You left me in suspense, YA!

It's very weird how life seems to throw these things out at us, in the most unexpected ways.

My W and I went out for Chinese tonight, and here's what our fortune cookies said:

Hers-"Avoid agreeing with people merely to keep the peace"

Mine-"You will discover the truth in time"

Odd, isn't it?

Yes it is weird. As someone once said, real life is much more strange than fiction.

So, you are in delay mode, are you really OK, or do you just say that to make 2long feel bad?

Hope you really are doing OK. You should be, you have done the work to be that way.

SS

Well, I am OK, but not as good as I was right after the confrontation.

For the first couple of days, I felt really great; like I'd made a serious enough impression on her that she was really trying to de-fog and think.

But then, she came back to being her "old" self again...rejecting the session with Steve, rejecting the MB Weekend...and it just seems like she's back to her usual comfortable self with the OM in tow.

Now I'm having serious doubts; about whether she'll attend the next session with Steve on Tuesday (as she'd said she would), and what Steve will say (probably wait a bit longer...), and I'm barely hanging on without going nuts waiting for this to develop, waiting for the next thing to happen.

Today I was having serious doubts about my Plan B, whether I'd be able to survivie it, whether it would have ANY effect on her...about the kids. Just the old "wanting to hurt her" coming out...I'm so very, very sad that my W of almost 21 years is in such a state of fog that she doesn't know what she's doing...or even worse, that she's been so cunning and focused, she knows EXACTLY what she's doing and a nasty surprise awaits me.

I just don't know. One of those doubtful periods that creeps up on me. 2 days now...

Also, I'm not really sure the Wellbutrin is working...I had to go back to 1 per day because the day I went to 2 I felt very badly. So the doc said go back to one for another week, then try for 2 again...I've been afraid to, I felt so bad the first time.

Having serious doubts; not feeling too sure of myself and the plan...

I think you did make an impression on her. But she is an addict, remember? Addict? Irrational behavior?

I think that you are so rational that you expect her to be.

Can you point out from any thread on this site where the WS acted rationally all during their A? Where things were explained to them and they said, " Oh, I see, I had better quit right now, this is wrong, so I won't do it any more."

You will just have to get through the bad days any way you can. Sorry I can't do more.

Space, when we say you need to go on, it doesn't mean don't care for her. It means - well, make your plans as though it was over. You can always cancel them. Where would you go, what would you do? Would it change what you are looking for in a Job? Where you live? Start making plans.
As I said, you don't need to do them if you don't want to. But it will make for a different you, and the WS usually can see the changes.

It is the small stuff that changes. Posture, body language, the way you say things, the words you use. All of it will change. So, please make plans to go on. You have a pretty good mind, use the logic on something where logic works.

SS

SS:

"Can you point out from any thread on this site where the WS acted rationally all during their A? Where things were explained to them and they said, " Oh, I see, I had better quit right now, this is wrong, so I won't do it any more." "

And to show just how ridiculous this irrationality can be, remember when I almost threw my W out in March? She met our D in a store parkinglot that afternoon and argued with HER for over 2 hours, insisting that she didn't have to give up OM, even when my D threatened never to speak to her again. I really screwed up by telling my D at that time, but she's doing very well right now, and the whole experience of that day/weekend showed me, probably more than any other time, just how irrational this fog makes the WS. They simply can't face any of the consequences of their actions - even OBVIOUS ones like losing their families, and for what? A fantasy.

So, we plan A and wait for them to "do the right thing." If that doesn't "work", we plan B and wait. If that doesn't work, we DV, and decide whether we might be willing to try again if they ever come out of it.

Life is very strange, and strange is truther than fiction, by far.

Don't I know it...but I guess it's the natural reaction of people like you or me to this sensless "fog": we want to fight it, we want to clear it, we want to beat it! We refuse to see it for what it is; fog....and fog is not something we can fight or rationalize or solve...but try we must!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Spacecase,
Don't you wish there was some kind of special light we could shine on them that would break into the fog?
You know, with the kids and I moving out into our own apt., you would think my WH would wake up.But what does he do...get an apt himself, that is closer to the OW! However, he claims there is nothing to that, he only moved there because of his new job. Which, by the way, he won't tell me where his job is, or where his apt. is because he is afraid I'll screw that up somehow. Is that fog or what????

How are you planning on doing your Plan B (if you do decide to go that route.) are you moving out, or is she? How close are you to making that decision? I realize it takes a while to get there.
Good luck.
KK

KK,
There is definitely major fog everywhere! Amazing stuff what they can think of and feel like it's "OK" and "Normal"...

Plan B; well, a couple more things need to happen. First, tuesday's call with Steve. IF she attends and IF she agrees to some significant step forward (end A, NC, commits to end it, NC) we'll probably give her another week to see if she does. IF she DOES NOT attend or DOES NOT agree to something significant, It's Plan B time. (Unless Steve believes there some powerful reason NOT to do it immediately, which I doubt).

I'll be moving into an extended stay close by, as I do not believe she would ever leave and it's not worth the LB of a fight over that after a pretty long a decent Plan A. I'd probably give it 3 months or so, since that's when Texas law starts talking about abandonment, and if nothing happens, file for divorce. My kids would be given keys and access to my place anytime, and I'd still be covering part of the house expenses (mortgage, etc.) but not all of them so as to put SOME financial pressure on her, but not too much so that she has to come back because of that...that's pretty much it...the kids know about this possibility already, so they'll be ready. The family's reaction is going to be ferocious!

I was actually trying to end this thread as it's gotten too long...started another one...
Affairs that don't end...Is this going to work?

<small>[ August 02, 2002, 06:13 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>