Well...Most probably know my story from recent postings I have made on here.

For a quick recap, after the WW filed on 06/04, I immediately implemented Plan B/Pre-DV, with a letter to the WW outlining suggestions that Jennifer had given to me.

After no contact for several days, I felt the LB$ fading away. Even though the WW tried to contact me, I never returned calls. The separation, along with what she had done to me, and Plan A getting me nowhere, the LB$ was nearly gone.

But......I had to be sure. WW had maintained the A was over. Jennifer said she didn't think so. Everyone working or talking with the WW also said the A was over and done with. The OMM had decided to "rededicate" his life to God, and repair his marriage.

I snooped (forgive me) on WW cell phone bills, and found a couple of calls convincing me that she had at least tried to initiate contact. That was all that I could deduce from the bills. So....like I said......I had to be sure.

Even after she lied and tried to get me "removed" from our house that SHE moved out of, I STILL held a "ray" of hope. But that stunt had pretty well "robbed" the LB$.

Hired a PI. Well....EVERY day the WW and OMM was together after work. I have hours of video, and sworn log records. WW and OMM doesn't know. So...obviously the A is FAR from over.

WW spends weekends alone. Nights alone. OMM is home with wife, and from my perspective has NO intent for it to be any other way. Between the fog and the "CRAP" he must be feeding her, I can't see for the life of me where her sense of self-esteem has gone. How in the world can anyone be satisified with a 30 minute/day R with someone who goes home to the spouse afterwards? 30 minutes talking in a car? Come on...somebody please explain this to me. What the &%^ kind of life is that? Geez.....does fog really get THAT thick?

Now for the sad part. WW has a couple of times in the past few days made it a point to walk by the house. Hadn't done that since she left. Had been avoiding ME at all costs, and would not even come close to being that close to here.

Today I learned, a close co-worker had commented to the WW how miserable she obviously had become. Told her that she thought that was odd for someone to be so miserable when they had just done something that they were POSITIVE they wanted (filed). Subject had for the most part been "taboo". But WW said something that led into that avenue of discussion.

WW responds that she was really beginning to miss the trips we took, the times we were together, etc. But then the very next day, here she is with OMM again.

I didn't feel sorry for her. Now I know I am through with it. I think WW senses that OMM isn't going to change, and my PERFECT Plan B has gotten to her. She can't feel my "rope" now. The only problem now, is that my Plan B, along with the past, and the current videos has "broken" me. I no longer want her.

I guess that is one of the benefits of Plan B. Loss of love on the BS's part. Oh, sure, I am sure there will probably still be emotional times, but NOWHERE near what they were. I do still love her. I just know that I no longer want to be "with" her. Does that make any sense to y'all?

But I am going to have the opportunity to look them both in the eyes, at the same time. I will let my felings be known in a dignified manner. That is something I MUST do for ME.

But then again.....the videos place the OMM in a delicate situation. One that only my WW can help him with. She will have to make a decision. She has placed herself in a position where either she will have lost something she doesn't want to, or either the OMM will. I am going to make that plain at our "meeting". Although I could decide the outcome for them out of revenge, I am not going to. That would be too easy, and I leave the bad guy, by it appearing that I was revengeful.

I will let them see EACH OTHER'S "true colors".

Sometimes you don't have to get revenge, I have learned. People cause it to "fall" on their own heads from bad decisions and judgements.

This way, THEY will have to live with the outcome. I will have had nothing to do with it.

Just a month earlier, a single, solitary month earlier, and none of this would have happened. Grace and forgiveness was BEATING down her door, and she refused to let it in. How sad.

hcii

Hi Hcii,

I'm an old poster who was on sabbatical . . . So I didn't know your story (sorry) but have read the recent post.

Bravo for you. I sense the sadness at how this could have turned out differently. I see how you can see, and even feel compassion for your WW as she now starts to come out of the fog.

I felt somewhat the same as my WH was served D papers. He didn't run and plead or beg. And I'm glad he didn't. He actually had some reasons why he wanted a D, too. That's ok. I could handle it. Part of his perception problems, though of course I'm not a perfect wife. But my WH did think we should give couples counseling a try. So I agreed.

But for me the point is that I could have gone through with the D if I had had to. I understand what you mean when you say you didn't want your WW anymore. Not to demean the WS at all, but at some point you get strong enough that you just don't want to deal with all the mess anymore and you realize that you really could live without them. Even with all the great memories, the great trips, even though you might get along well as a couple, work together well and so on.

At any rate, I understand what you're saying. And Dr. Harley always said that not every marriage could be saved.

I hope there is great happiness in store for you. Learn from this and move on. You didn't mention, were there any children involved?

I wish you the best. Thanks for sharing your story and I hope you find peace.

HC - So sorry it has gone this way. I know how it is to hang on to any strand of hope that you can, and how empty it must feel to have that hope slip through your hands. But, at least you know where you are now. Even that has to better than limbo.

How tragic it will be when your wife finally comes back to this planet and realizes what she has lost - a good man who loved her, who kept his promises and fought to protect her and tried everything he could to save their marriage. I'm sad for her, but I'm happy for you, because you are a better man for having giving it your best shot.

I pray that your heart will be at peace, knowing that you did the honorable thing.

I'm sure she'll hit rock bottom and hit it hard very soon. It's sad that your LB$ has faded away to nothing, but it's understandable too. She will surely wake up and hate herself for the rotten choices she made. It's an unfortunate, but necessary, consequence.

Take care of yourself and start living your life for you again.

hcii:

You're doing well. You felt you need to hire the PI, and you got the results we all dread, but you didn't come unglued when you learned what she was up to, and you haven't retaliated.

All the right things.

You're a good man, hcii.

HCII,

I'm sorry it turned out this way, but glad that you know the truth. At least you aren't sitting in the dark with HALF of the facts and your life hanging in a limbo - a limbo contingent upon the good will of someone who has not your best interest at heart. At least this way, you know exactly what is happening in your life and are able to make a decision made on the truth. No false hope. And that doesn't mean that the situation won't change sometime in the future, but at least for now, you know where you are in your life. God Bless, HCII.

2Long said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're doing well. You felt you need to hire the PI, and you got the results we all dread, but you didn't come unglued when you learned what she was up to, and you haven't retaliated. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For some reason, 2Long, I have somehow "connected " with your postings. I always followed them with great interests, and I think could gain some insight into my situation by "looking" through your eyes at yours. Does that make sense? Hope that doesn't offend you.

Others that post, and being a BH I think I followed postings from other BHs that post, have also helped me. TMCM, SC, J.R. and a host of others posts have been very informative, and gives new and different perspectives that I think we fail to see when alone on our own. I guess that is why "group" therapy is good.

As to the "retaliate", well....No...I haven't went ballistic yet. But....I do intend to use it to my advantage. And if that bothers some people, then so be it.

I have sort of taken the attitude that the last 2 years have been taken from me without my knowledge. It was always about someone else. I was used. Truly. My WW was big-time cake-eater. We had no kids. She could have walked. But...she couldn't walk away from the things that I had said earlier that she misses now. I don't want to demean my WW, even though I probably have a right to, but she was "High-Maintenance". But I loved her. MANY people....even her close confidants have told her this. I wanted her to have everything. I guess she took that TOO literally.

Well....I'm a little hungry now. I have decided that if I ain't happy, then none of us are going to be happy. Not going to be any trouble per se, just gonna be some "uncomfortableness" on their part. They need to feel that. They really do. They have become soooo comfortable (or stupid) that my PI was amazed and said so. Easiest money he ever made. They were of course still sneaky, but with not a lot of effort.

I think that when I was "forced" into the Plan B with her filing, the last meaningful conversation that we had was that I asked her to please reconsider. I honestly think she felt that I was still here...hoping....waiting....and that left her being "comfortable" with me. Had I went to Plan B on a sour note, she probably would have been more inclined to be leery of me.

I think the one MOST important lesson that I have learned is this:

ANYONE can be FORGIVEN for ANYTHING. Except......not ACCEPTING the forgiveness that is offered. There is NO forgiveness for that. And I think that when a BS sees that happening, that is the point of "you'll just know".

That is where my WW is now. At this moment I don't think she really cares. I do believe, though, that it is just around the corner, and she is going to hit it head-on.

But neither OMM, nor I, will be there.

Thanks to EVERYONE....you have all been an inspiration to me.

hcii

hcii:

"For some reason, 2Long, I have somehow "connected " with your postings. I always followed them with great interests, and I think could gain some insight into my situation by "looking" through your eyes at yours. Does that make sense? Hope that doesn't offend you."

Not at all. I'm glad I could be of help. I wish I could GET GOOD HELP for myself and my M. I think I'd better call the Harleys, but even that won't save this mess I've got myself into now, I'm afraid.

"I think the one MOST important lesson that I have learned is this:
ANYONE can be FORGIVEN for ANYTHING. Except......not ACCEPTING the forgiveness that is offered. There is NO forgiveness for that. And I think that when a BS sees that happening, that is the point of "you'll just know"."

This is an interesting idea. My W won't accept forgiveness, because she doesn't think she's done anything to forgive! I wonder if she feels that way because she rationalized her A by telling me that "you should go and find someone better for you". Now, I think I should. But NOT until I've completely exhausted all my hope, and that's getting a lot closer than I thought. Painfully close.

Sorry for the digression.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is an interesting idea. My W won't accept forgiveness, because she doesn't think she's done anything to forgive! I wonder if she feels that way because she rationalized her A by telling me that "you should go and find someone better for you". Now, I think I should. But NOT until I've completely exhausted all my hope, and that's getting a lot closer than I thought. Painfully close. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I heard the same speech about me needing to find someone who would be better for me. Of course, that was several weeks ago, just around D-Day.

Really....If one thinks about it, if the WS was to "accept" forgiveness, then they would HAVE to be "acknowledging" wrong-doing, and they couldn't "spin" it. Hmmm........Subconscious reverse psychology....If "I" ACCEPT forgiveness, then "you" must be FORGIVING, then "I" must be SORRY, then "I" must be wrong.......OMG!!! I CAN'T ADMIT THAT !!!!

My WW's thoughts exactly.....But she will most likely find out that "that dog won't hunt".

Take a deep breath, 2Long. Her being there with you, to me, is a BIG plus.....I never had the actual chance to do a good Plan A. My WW left 3 days BEFORE I found out. Her leaving on a whim aroused suspicion, and I found it about the A.

Sometimes, and this is actually a LOT of my suffering, is this -- What if I HADN'T discovered the A? Then the whole set of dynamics would have been different. I honestly believe, deep down, that she would have returned home within a few days. My finding out blew things all to hell.
Oh well.....that was the hand I was dealt.

Either gotta play it, or fold it.

And 2Long, you will know when it is time. As long as you are "wondering" if it's time to move on, then it isn't.

Cutting losses and getting out will hit you like a ton of bricks. But....at the same time, relief will set in with the pain. At least it was in my case.

Hang in there....

hcii

I have this little revelation I have come up with. All of us seperated sit and think about whether or not we even want our WS's back. At least I do. And when my WW is treating me the worst I am sure I am through for good. Well, I just don't think I am in a position to make that decision. I am not going to attempt to make it until if and when she askes to come back, then I will think it over seriously, and see what she is willing to do.

So, just my advice.

Don't make the decision until:

A) WS wants to come back

B) WS files for DV and it is finally final (nothing else you can do at that point)

C) You are sure you have no more love for WS. If the things WS is doing still hurt you, I think that means we still have some feelings. When we don't care what WS is doing anymore, then it's time to move on permanatly, until then reconciliation might be possible, but proceed with caution.

I'm not saying don't protect yourself, I think that is part of what Plan B is. I just think the reason the things WS does hurts so much is because we still have love for them. If it doesn't hurt anymore, or hurts less and less then the LB$ is draining fast if not already gone. Of course this is all just my unprofessional opinion.

Good Luck hcii,

SCBI

I just wanted to send hugs to all of you guys.

(((((hugs)))))

I admire your sense of loyalty, love, strength and courage. I admire the love you show for your spouses, and I am deeply saddened that, when they had their opportunity to experience what true and genuine love is, they are letting their goddammed pride and stubborness get in the way.

I am sorry you are hurting. I am sorry it is all so difficult.

Sometimes I wish I had some misterious power to wave my hand and make it all feel better and right for all MB'ers.

You deserve to be happy, be it with WS's or not. You all deserve to find somebody that will love you at least as much as you love them.

hcii, I applaud the way you are handling things. I wish I had the cold head you do. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

There's some truly good $hit here:

hcii:

"Really....If one thinks about it, if the WS was to "accept" forgiveness, then they would HAVE to be "acknowledging" wrong-doing, and they couldn't "spin" it. Hmmm........Subconscious reverse psychology....If "I" ACCEPT forgiveness, then "you" must be FORGIVING, then "I" must be SORRY, then "I" must be wrong.......OMG!!! I CAN'T ADMIT THAT !!!!"

Absolutely! The thing that makes it so hard to get to recovery, then, is that "forgiveness" is relatively easy, compared to rebuilding trust. Since my W can't accept that I can forgive her, and doesn't understand why I just can't trust her (flip the switch), we go absolutely nowhere.

"Take a deep breath, 2Long. Her being there with you, to me, is a BIG plus"

Believe me, I realize the value of this! (and of course, when I say "I don't feel important to you" she responds by pointing out that she's stayed all these years. At some point, though, I can see myself not feeling particularly grateful for that, though. Like, when she asked me a few months ago "When I started my A, I thought about suicide as the only alternative. Wasn't having the A a better choice?" and she thought I had said "no." I think I said that getting Cing or a DV FIRST would have been a better choice, and possibly that getting over her death would be easier than getting over the deciet, which she could have easily misinterpreted as "you said it would have been better if I'd chosen suicide." Gadzooks, what goes on in her mind!!!

"Sometimes, and this is actually a LOT of my suffering, is this -- What if I HADN'T discovered the A? Then the whole set of dynamics would have been different. I honestly believe, deep down, that she would have returned home within a few days. My finding out blew things all to hell."

Quite possibly. But then what would your life have been like? My W often says she wished that I had never found out. Things were going well between us for about a month and a half before D-day. But we never would have been as intimate as we had been before the A. In all probabilty, I would have just chalked that up to the way we get when we get older, and at best would have continued with a mundane (for the most part), and possibly sometimes fun, but never truly intimate and honest, M. I truly shudder when I think of the rest of my life being like that. I won't have it.

"Oh well.....that was the hand I was dealt.
Either gotta play it, or fold it."

Yep. Same here.

"And 2Long, you will know when it is time. As long as you are "wondering" if it's time to move on, then it isn't."

Good point.

"Cutting losses and getting out will hit you like a ton of bricks. But....at the same time, relief will set in with the pain. At least it was in my case."

I felt some of this last night, while my W was sleeping on the couch and I was burning a hole in the ceiling staring at it. I went over some of the options I had, and the most attractive to me at the time was to check into a hotel, and write that plan B letter. I went so far as to contemplate how we would continue to work on getting our house back together by working on it alternate weekends (so we wouldn't have contact), using some of the insurance money to pay down the mortgage, and letting one of us live in it when it's done and keep it in a trust for our kids even if we DV. It was actually kind of comforting to know that I could come up with some tentative plan that would be fair and work for all - and, of course, I had fun thinking about stuff that I'd do by myself that I don't do M'd (NO Rs, though!)

SCBI:

"I have this little revelation I have come up with. All of us seperated sit and think about whether or not we even want our WS's back. At least I do."

I do this now, and my WW never left. But, in a very real sense, she's been GONE for 12 years now. So, my exercise is to determine if I want the kind of life my WW envisions (where she can work with OMW's H or have other Rs and have her "privacy"). D-day and plan A have made me realize what this M has consisted of all these years, and I won't have it. But I don't know if I can change it, either.

"And when my WW is treating me the worst I am sure I am through for good. Well, I just don't think I am in a position to make that decision."

I do this too. And I'm not quite ready, either. More than before, but not quite, yet.

"I am not going to attempt to make it until if and when she askes to come back, then I will think it over seriously, and see what she is willing to do."

Though my W is home, I still have this "plan" very much on my mind all the time.

"So, just my advice.
Don't make the decision until:
A) WS wants to come back
B) WS files for DV and it is finally final (nothing else you can do at that point)
C) You are sure you have no more love for WS. If the things WS is doing still hurt you, I think that means we still have some feelings. When we don't care what WS is doing anymore, then it's time to move on permanatly, until then reconciliation might be possible, but proceed with caution.
I'm not saying don't protect yourself, I think that is part of what Plan B is. I just think the reason the things WS does hurts so much is because we still have love for them. If it doesn't hurt anymore, or hurts less and less then the LB$ is draining fast if not already gone. Of course this is all just my unprofessional opinion."

But an important and valid observation, nonetheless!

Alostwife:

"I just wanted to send hugs to all of you guys.
(((((hugs)))))
I admire your sense of loyalty, love, strength and courage. I admire the love you show for your spouses, and I am deeply saddened that, when they had their opportunity to experience what true and genuine love is, they are letting their goddammed pride and stubborness get in the way."

Boy, ain't THAT the truth!!! Wish it weren't!

"Sometimes I wish I had some misterious power to wave my hand and make it all feel better and right for all MB'ers."

Well, in a very real sense, YOU DO. Sure, you can't "fix" the problems, but your posts keep us all going. They do me.

"You deserve to be happy, be it with WS's or not. You all deserve to find somebody that will love you at least as much as you love them."

So do the WSs, actually. So do YOU. Oh yeah... so do I <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

"hcii, I applaud the way you are handling things. I wish I had the cold head you do."

Me too.

I've been in such personal turmoil and doubt, that I've spent less time than I should reading others' posts. Starting to come back now, and found some very interesting stuff here.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>HCII:
ANYONE can be FORGIVEN for ANYTHING. Except......not ACCEPTING the forgiveness that is offered. There is NO forgiveness for that. And I think that when a BS sees that happening, that is the point of "you'll just know".</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is so very true! My WW keeps saying "I know you'll never forgive me" and stuff like that, but the fact is, I'm still here, and Plan Aing, (and even Plan Bing), BECAUSE I'm willing/ready to forgive. In some sense, I've ALREADY forgiven. I think sometimes they confuse forgive and forget. When I say we need to talk about this some more, she feels I haven't "forgiven", but what she means is I haven't "forgotten"...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> HCII:
And 2Long, you will know when it is time. As long as you are "wondering" if it's time to move on, then it isn't.

Cutting losses and getting out will hit you like a ton of bricks. But....at the same time, relief will set in with the pain. At least it was in my case.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very good point. No two ways about it; we will know. What is harder to do, perhaps, is to make certain intermediate decisions; do I say this or that, do I go to Plan B,...but when it's time to bail; we'll know. No question.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>SCBI:
Don't make the decision until:

A) WS wants to come back

B) WS files for DV and it is finally final (nothing else you can do at that point)

C) You are sure you have no more love for WS. If the things WS is doing still hurt you, I think that means we still have some feelings. When we don't care what WS is doing anymore, then it's time to move on permanatly, until then reconciliation might be possible, but proceed with caution.

I'm not saying don't protect yourself, I think that is part of what Plan B is. I just think the reason the things WS does hurts so much is because we still have love for them. If it doesn't hurt anymore, or hurts less and less then the LB$ is draining fast if not already gone. Of course this is all just my unprofessional opinion.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think these are very good guidelines. Perhaps we should add "and demonstrates what they're willing to do for the M" to A)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>2L:
Absolutely! The thing that makes it so hard to get to recovery, then, is that "forgiveness" is relatively easy, compared to rebuilding trust. Since my W can't accept that I can forgive her, and doesn't understand why I just can't trust her (flip the switch), we go absolutely nowhere.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why are they ALL so much alike, and yet INSIST that they're not?!?!?! This is the weirdest thing! They all want forgiveness BEFORE they end the A, and Trust immediately upon discovery! (often also before the A ends) Just bizzare!
I spent about 40 minutes very patiently explaining to my W about why Trust had not yet arrived. I won't go into the whole thing, but suffice it to say that she didn't quite see why I would not trust her to go to FL again (where OM is), when the last time she went she "neglected" to tell me she was renting a car, and it turned out the miles on the rental were almost perfect to have gone to see the OM and back (Among other interesting coincidences). But I think that in the end, she started to get it....a very tough thing, this trust issue!
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Alostwife:

"I just wanted to send hugs to all of you guys.
(((((hugs)))))
I admire your sense of loyalty, love, strength and courage. I admire the love you show for your spouses, and I am deeply saddened that, when they had their opportunity to experience what true and genuine love is, they are letting their goddammed pride and stubborness get in the way."</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's nice to see supportive female voices here. It gives us hope that someday our own "females" will have the same thoughts and see some of what we've done for our Ms. Thank you Alostwife; it means a lot!

written by hcii:
"Oh, sure, I am sure there will probably still be emotional times, but NOWHERE near what they were. I do still love her. I just know that I no longer want to be "with" her. Does that make any sense to y'all?

Cutting losses and getting out will hit you like a ton of bricks. But....at the same time, relief will set in with the pain. At least it was in my case."

I agree with you hcii. I'm divorced, almost a year now and though it's not always easy, it DOES get better. You might be surprised to wake up one day and even see the good things that came out of broken marriage vows and divorce... good luck to you.