CSue:

"I discussed that separation with SH this week; I termed it a "paradigm shift". After describing the feeling; SH told me what I was experiencing. What occurred is that "MY" recovery from the A split from the "M"'s recovery from the A."

I'll see your paradigm, and raise you 5 cents (2long hands CSue a quarter).

I think I know what you mean. All the time, last 3 months or so, I've been feeling very close, but not clingy, to my W. Since I realized last night that we weren't growing together - that in fact not much change in her thinking has occurred at all - I feel very much emotionally separate from her. Probably a protection mechanism. At least, I think my plan A has resulted in me being better able to detach and still be loving. There's no reason (or justification) for making her life any more miserable than it already is (and it wouldn't be plan A anyway).

On a related, focused topic: I've always been very big on SF. Seem to need it at least 3times/wk. Before D-day, I THOUGHT I was being considerate of her needs and feelings, but I wasn't entirely. She says the SF was good, but not always what she wanted. After D-day, I made sure more that it was what she wanted, and so it became better, for the most part. And twice, now (last weekend and weekend before), she initiated in almost suprising ways and it was amazing. I truly have never experienced it that good since we met. NOW, after last night, I can't even imagine wanting SF with her at all. Since the A hasn't been dealt with and she's back to her "old ways" (maybe never left them), I'm having an increasingly hard time NOT imagining her with him, even though there may be no reason for me to do that. And so, I honestly don't know what I'll do if she initiates anytime soon. I sure won't, but if she does and I get all moody thinking of THEM, ...I just don't know.

Ok 2long,

In the 180 if you have found the post, there's some good stuff about detaching with specific instructions of how that's supposed to work. How it worked for me is that my H actually actually took the initiative to ask "How are you doing?", "How are you feeling", etc. I have to admit that while I had been working on the 180, some buildup of negative feelings were occurring, so I will probably have to get the book if I plan to go this route in a serious way. (My H dreads when Amazon.com makes a delivery). He's embarrassed about the titles in my new "library"!

Personally I think it's about time she initiated something good. Csue

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
CSue:

"I discussed that separation with SH this week; I termed it a "paradigm shift". After describing the feeling; SH told me what I was experiencing. What occurred is that "MY" recovery from the A split from the "M"'s recovery from the A."

I'll see your paradigm, and raise you 5 cents (2long hands CSue a quarter).]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">CSue takes the quarter and KEEPS IT!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I know what you mean. All the time, last 3 months or so, I've been feeling very close, but not clingy, to my W. Since I realized last night that we weren't growing together - that in fact not much change in her thinking has occurred at all - I feel very much emotionally separate from her. Probably a protection mechanism. At least, I think my plan A has resulted in me being better able to detach and still be loving. There's no reason (or justification) for making her life any more miserable than it already is (and it wouldn't be plan A anyway).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope...remember your're the good guy!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">On a related, focused topic: I've always been very big on SF. Seem to need it at least 3times/wk. Before D-day, I THOUGHT I was being considerate of her needs and feelings, but I wasn't entirely. She says the SF was good, but not always what she wanted. After D-day, I made sure more that it was what she wanted, and so it became better, for the most part. And twice, now (last weekend and weekend before), she initiated in almost suprising ways and it was amazing. I truly have never experienced it that good since we met.]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The best of plan A! Something she'll find hard to forget; of that I am sure. Some men NEVER figure out how to do this!!!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NOW, after last night, I can't even imagine wanting SF with her at all. Since the A hasn't been dealt with and she's back to her "old ways" (maybe never left them), I'm having an increasingly hard time NOT imagining her with him, even though there may be no reason for me to do that. And so, I honestly don't know what I'll do if she initiates anytime soon. I sure won't, but if she does and I get all moody thinking of THEM, ...I just don't know.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You reaction seems to be quite natural. A loss for you both, but especially hers. It will be interesting to see what she does about this.

I am curious to hear about the trucker sign however if you are up to telling us! CSue

CSue:

"I am curious to hear about the trucker sign however if you are up to telling us! CSue"

Okay, here goes.

We were on our way up I-15. Mid afternoon, we pass this semi, and my W laughs. I ask what's funny, and she says to slow down and see what the guy has up in the window of his cab. I slow down, and he's got this sheet of paper taped to the window that says "Nice girls flash truckers". I laugh and (according to her) say "Don't you dare!". (my son, 2 of his friends, and my MIL are in the van with us). Well, I pass the truck again to head on our way, and he's quickly scribbled another sign and puts it up that says "You're not nice!" This got all of us laughing pretty hysterically, actually.

Later, I told her that, although it was funny, I was a bit offended by it, and said that it's probably because I'm feeling sensitive to that kind of thing right now. SHE brought up the incident in our MC session (what a waste of time!), and they both got all over me for being annoyed by it. I said that's because I worked in the oil fields 20 years ago, and most roughnecks, construction workers (not ALL of you guys, now!) can be pretty crass and even disgusting when around women. I said I felt protective of my W (thinking of her vulnerabilties to advances from OM) AND our M, and that was also part of why it annoyed me. Geez, the MC couldn't even understand that! (but, now that we're not seeing her "for a while" I guess it doesn't matter whether she "understands" me or not. Certainly not to me).

That came up with the other crap last night, and my W was even FARTHER from understanding what I meant than the day before at the MC. No, CSue, there were NO SIGNS or even EFFORT on her part to show any sympathy for my feelings about that kind of humor. RATHER, she ridiculed them (and so, in effect, did the MC).

The problem with that kind of humor is that it's often quite indistinguishable from sexual harrassment. Last night, my W said "and so what if I DID flash him? They're just breasts!" Which reminded me of what she said about our SF AND her SF with OM - "It's just sex!" like, WTF does THAT ever mean?

In an old Burt Reynolds movie "WW and the Dixie Dancekings" Burt's character was introducing his GF, Dixie, to some famous country band in a smoke-filled room, while they were negotiating a songwriting deal (Dixie was the singer in Burt's character's band). When introduced, the bandmembers all started singing "Oh I wish I was in Dixie", which almost started a fistfight. Dixie didn't even catch the inuendo. I feel like my W is like that much of the time. She said recently that part of why she became involved with OM is her naivte. So, is it any WONDER I get upset by humor like that, NOW?

You did ask. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Gonna update my sig line again (for the 3rd time in 2 days!) and remove that pessimistic remark about plan B or C.

WW called me for the third time today (and it's only 2pm). First 2 about the house, 3rd about a spelling question for a report she's working on. Not big deals, but she's not giving up on us, either.

Not progress, but not the end. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
CSue:

Okay, here goes.

We were on our way up I-15. Mid afternoon, we pass this semi, and my W laughs. I ask what's funny, and she says to slow down and see what the guy has up in the window of his cab. I slow down, and he's got this sheet of paper taped to the window that says "Nice girls flash truckers". I laugh and (according to her) say "Don't you dare!". (my son, 2 of his friends, and my MIL are in the van with us). Well, I pass the truck again to head on our way, and he's quickly scribbled another sign and puts it up that says "You're not nice!" This got all of us laughing pretty hysterically, actually.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What a hoot!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Later, I told her that, although it was funny, I was a bit offended by it, and said that it's probably because I'm feeling sensitive to that kind of thing right now.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2long, doing a good job communicating feelings here!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SHE brought up the incident in our MC session (what a waste of time!), and they both got all over me for being annoyed by it. I said that's because I worked in the oil fields 20 years ago, and most roughnecks, construction workers (not ALL of you guys, now!) can be pretty crass and even disgusting when around women. I said I felt protective of my W (thinking of her vulnerabilties to advances from OM) AND our M, and that was also part of why it annoyed me. Geez, the MC couldn't even understand that! (but, now that we're not seeing her "for a while" I guess it doesn't matter whether she "understands" me or not. Certainly not to me).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BIG RED FLAG HERE!!! This was extremely unwise of the counselor. My concern is that the counselor is "over-identifying with your wife", and "under-identifying with you". In your vulnerable position regarding M & A; I find this extremely insensitive of the counselor and hope you drop this person NOW. 2long, trust me...you deserve better than this. (Please don't ask me to cite another counselor experience!!)...it's a good one; actually a bad one that makes my point. It would also explain why your W like this counselor so much; she's not objective, and it's not good for your M. She may be a perfectly fine counselor; but not in your case!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That came up with the other crap last night, and my W was even FARTHER from understanding what I meant than the day before at the MC. No, CSue, there were NO SIGNS or even EFFORT on her part to show any sympathy for my feelings about that kind of humor. RATHER, she ridiculed them (and so, in effect, did the MC).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm shaking my head here...AGH!!!!! You are painted in a corner with these 2 together...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The problem with that kind of humor is that it's often quite indistinguishable from sexual harrassment. Last night, my W said "and so what if I DID flash him? They're just breasts!" Which reminded me of what she said about our SF AND her SF with OM - "It's just sex!" like, WTF does THAT ever mean? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Still ignoring your sensitivity in lieu of the situation. I think WW was trying to push your buttons here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In an old Burt Reynolds movie "WW and the Dixie Dancekings" Burt's character was introducing his GF, Dixie, to some famous country band in a smoke-filled room, while they were negotiating a songwriting deal (Dixie was the singer in Burt's character's band). When introduced, the bandmembers all started singing "Oh I wish I was in Dixie", which almost started a fistfight. Dixie didn't even catch the inuendo. I feel like my W is like that much of the time. She said recently that part of why she became involved with OM is her naivte. So, is it any WONDER I get upset by humor like that, NOW?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">H & I were invited to a 50th birthday party and my concern going was that I'm such a party pooper now; just dealing with all of this and worried that I wouldn't be joyful happy-go-lucky etc...It's practically impossible for me to lighten-up!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You did ask. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes I did...and I'm glad I did!!

CSue:

Thanks for the validation!

Sometime, maybe not soon, I'd like to try and clarify my feelings about this to my W again. I didn't talk about the movie analogy or remind her of the SF remark.

Sometime, I'd like to hear that other C experience of yours. I really am green to this stuff, and easily snowed.

Hi 2long,
I'm here, I'm reading & feeling your pain and frustration of trying to restore effective communication to your marriage of 26+ years!!!

Think back to when you were first dating--did she talk to you then? Was she more open when you first met and married? OR did she just sort of change as the routine of married life fell into place. Of course she changed after the A, but I think it was more of her being a good liar than you being a chump. Obviously you trusted her.

Something you said in this thread struck me,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
THEN, she reminded me that I had plenty of opportunities to "help her" when she would ask for help, saying she was in trouble, but NEVER telling me enough about what the trouble consisted of...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it is very extremely unfair if you try to accept any of the blame for her level of dishonesty. I agree with you that if she "needed help" then the right way to verbalize it is in English, not through expecting you to be some kind of mind reader? How about, "I'm tempted to have an affair and I'm in trouble and need help on how to avoid it?" How about "I think I might be in love with another man and I have been lying to you and I don't like it but I don't know how to stop nor do I want to end it?"

I imagine that your W has been unable to be honest with HERSELF for many many years and so how much more difficult would it be for her to be open and honest with you at this stage of the game??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> It sounds to me as if Openness and Honesty is one of your top EN's... Am I right? And yet, you are married to a clam... *sigh* Why does it always seem work that say? I guess God tries to balance us all out. I bet your wife has ENs that require much effort on your part to fill as well...

You have been married for so long now too that you need to get out of the ruts that can so easily beset us all... What I have noticed (and tried to change) about MY communication style is the way I process or filter things my H says to me. I totally twist things in my mind and I now realize it is because of MY OWN insecurities and negative self-image. So I have to practice hearing him for the face value of what he says.

I'm just reaching and guessing here, but perhaps, over the years, your W has been intimidated by your particular communication style or expectations and has gone into a shell for fear that you would not understand her or belittle her or dismiss her words or maybe even reword them??? If not, then maybe there are some family of origin issues that she has never really resolved. Something has happened that caused her to feel unsafe to blurt out her truths to you? Hmmm.... a frustrating dilemma for you, indeed!

All that aside tho, I like the way the MBers are trying to help you focus on you because yes, recovering from this is all about you becoming a better you.

My angry outbursts totally caused my H to shut down over the years--emotionally and verbally. I had to stop. Do you have anger issues that have caused you to give your wife the silent treatment in the past? You said you tend to withdraw rather than yell. Silent treatments can cause the recipient to walk on eggshells and withdraw as well... Either that or just simply look for someone else to talk to--esp. if your W has a big need for conversation or admiration! Just a thought. You can't be admiring someone if you aren't speaking to them!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Nevertheless, it seems to me, after reading all this, that you still love your wife way too much to Plan B just yet. Dr.Harley may think differently tho because of the number of years your W has taken advantage of your stability. HOWEVER, Plan B might be just what you need to negotiate the final END of this prolonged affair, and give your W a much-needed wake-up call. It doesn't sound to me like she really wants to lose you or that she can even afford to lose you. It sounds to me that she has gotten to take you for granted for way too long because she can count on you to be there. In any case, I wish you all the best. Stick with MB and don't give up on yourself! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'll comment on several posts here (2L, CSue, BTDT)
2L:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SC: "Get on the horn with Harley, get the books and start reading, get yourself some projects you can work on (my bonsai are coming along beautifully!), and begin to ignore her and her actions/non-actions. Get away for a few days if you have to."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>2L: This is something we've talked about many times. Since you are the home "handyman" and so am I, I think we know how hard this is to do. Like, if I tell my W "no, I won't be here Saturday to help clean the maids bedroom in the house with you. I'm going to play by myself for the weekend" I'm going to be the BAD GUY. If I say "No, not working on the house because I want to finally finish the restoration on my Model A that I haven't touched in 20 years" I'm the BAD GUY.

So, does this really work? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YES!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SC: "Just try it. I guarantee you will begin to see a difference. Let HER wonder, let HER think, let HER work on her."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I really want/need to do this. I just don't know how, or what to expect. Maybe you're right, though. Maybe it would work.
But that was her major complaint as to why she had the 2nd A with Rat Meat - I was spending all my time with my telescopes and "none" with her. If I do something like that now, I'm concerned she'll rationalize it as justification to resume her A. I'd be FLAT DONE if that were to happen. ...maybe I should do that.

Heck, maybe that's the idea. I've got 3 cars of my own. Currently 2 run and one's driveable. I should restore the Model A, fix the truck, and sell 2 of the cars (I'd like to drive the Model A - see what she thinks of THAT change!).</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2L; I think you can talk to her and let her know that you need some time for you, to work on/do things you like and need for you, without neglecting her. Negotiate, but let her know and hopefuly accept that you have your needs too.

csue:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2L: On a related, focused topic: I've always been very big on SF. Seem to need it at least 3times/wk. Before D-day, I THOUGHT I was being considerate of her needs and feelings, but I wasn't entirely. She says the SF was good, but not always what she wanted. After D-day, I made sure more that it was what she wanted, and so it became better, for the most part. And twice, now (last weekend and weekend before), she initiated in almost suprising ways and it was amazing. I truly have never experienced it that good since we met.
<strong>CSue: The best of plan A! Something she'll find hard to forget; of that I am sure. Some men NEVER figure out how to do this!!!!!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Since you mention this, CSue, maybe you can help me here; my W states that for a very long time she has been unsatisfied with our SF, and that perhaps that is why she doesn't do it as often as she knows I'd like. However, she is UNABLE to tell me what she likes, how she likes it, and when I try to experiement, she is VERY reluctant. In addition, although I've talked about it, bought her books, etc. and we've been discussing this for over 6 months, it seems odd to me that she has NOT been able to come up with anything that she likes in all this time. Any ideas?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>BTDT:
You have been married for so long now too that you need to get out of the ruts that can so easily beset us all... What I have noticed (and tried to change) about MY communication style is the way I process or filter things my H says to me. I totally twist things in my mind and I now realize it is because of MY OWN insecurities and negative self-image. So I have to practice hearing him for the face value of what he says.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This sounds exactly like my W. How did you come to realize what was causing you to do this?

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BTDT: I'm just reaching and guessing here, but perhaps, over the years, your W has been intimidated by your particular communication style or expectations and has gone into a shell for fear that you would not understand her or belittle her or dismiss her words or maybe even reword them??? If not, then maybe there are some family of origin issues that she has never really resolved. Something has happened that caused her to feel unsafe to blurt out her truths to you? Hmmm.... a frustrating dilemma for you, indeed!

My angry outbursts totally caused my H to shut down over the years--emotionally and verbally. I had to stop. Do you have anger issues that have caused you to give your wife the silent treatment in the past? You said you tend to withdraw rather than yell. Silent treatments can cause the recipient to walk on eggshells and withdraw as well... Either that or just simply look for someone else to talk to--esp. if your W has a big need for conversation or admiration! Just a thought. You can't be admiring someone if you aren't speaking to them!!! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And this sounds exactly like me! It appears my angry reactions to my W's talk, discussions, etc. cause her much fear, and that she feels she stopped trying to talk because of it. Now I will grant her that, but still, it seems too pat, too easy an excuse for not talking at all...doesn't it? I know I've stopped doing that for several months, and she recognizes this.
On the other hand, she too did the same thing to me; just angry screaming and hysterics about almost any discussion where we didn't agree, until I, too, stopped bringing up many difficult subjects. Perhaps this created the environment where communication was lost.
Any help or comments on this area, ideas, how you've dealt with them, suggestions would be welcome.

"It's just breasts"

That would hurt me too. I just don't think our WS's can see the pain they caused us with the A (I don't think they want to see), and how little things like this can sting worse than the biggest arguments we ever had before the A.

You are doing great 2long, just keep plan Aing and you will get there, I think this withdrawl time (which can go on a long time) is almost as hard as the A itself. Be patient, I think she will come around eventually. Come to appriciate your feelings.

Let me share with you something that explains my failed attempt at recovery. It's lyrics from a song.

"Empty stares from each corner of a shared prison cell...
One just escapes, one's left inside the well..." -Pearl Jam

Right now you and your W are on those opposite corners of the shared prison cell that was created by the A. Don't give her a reason to escape like I did my W. Try to meet her in the center of that prison cell. You may have to make the first steps. You may spend a lot of time doing all the work. But this prison sentance is long and parole is only granted after good behavior is displayed consistantly without expecting anything in return.

Good Luck.

<small>[ July 12, 2002, 07:21 AM: Message edited by: StillCan'tBelieveIt ]</small>

Hi Spacecase
Wellll, ya know how they always say that "anger is about YOU?" It's so true...

I guess I just LB'd my H (with verbal abuse) to the point where he withdrew and we were at a standstill. Something had to change. I was losing the one good thing God brought into my life! Someone had to change and I KNEW it had to be me...

I kept asking myself why I was so angry. What is making me angry? Why am I hurt? Who hurt me? and WHY and again WHY and again WHY until I got my answers. I did this in a prayer between God and myself.

Why are you hurt? Who hurt you? Why are you angry? Are you guilty of the same things you judge others for? Just ask yourself stuff like that, ask God to help you figure things out, and keep digging for all the WHYs until you find the REAL reasons behind what you making YOU tick (as you deal with all the drama and pain of changing). Change is uncomfortable esp. when we are in the rut. Ruts are very comfy and cozy and EASY to fall into! Falling into a rut takes NO effort at all! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> You just roll in there and stagnate... You know?

You know what I also found out in all my digging for my why's? I was angry with GOD! I was not angry with my spouse at all! I was angry with the One who was going to help me change and get myself out of my mess!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> What a revelation for me as I thought I was "above" getting angry with God, you know, too saved for that! WRONG! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Anyway, I admire your MB efforts--Spacecase and 2long, don't give up! I know it's tempting but until you have given yourself 100% effort on this, you won't be satisfied. Stand and do all that you can do and keep standing. Then stand some more! You can do it!!!

Before I respond to your posts, I wanted to share something JL said to me in an email yesterday. We've all heard it in our professional careers, but it really hit me in connection with the miscommunication issues I'm facing now, which I think have been the single biggest factor in our M decline the past 12 years (and likely well before that).

JL: "You know sort of like the old dicctum for giving a good presentation: Tell them what you are going to tell them, tell them, and then tell them what you told them."

In my view, the VERY BEST THING our Kaiser MC did for us during all of our visits, was on Tuesday, when she made me repeat my "conditions" regarding OM in order to stay in this M, multiple times from different angles. There is no possibility for misunderstanding that way. Oh no, don't get me wrong. I am quite sure that, even with the repetition, not all of it sank in, or permutations of how to comply and still keep the friendship going were (and perhaps still are) running through my W's mind. But the point is that communication is the core of our problem, even more serious than the "blame/guilt fests" we've had (which, interestingly, have not fallen off in intensity, even though many of the other triggers of angry outbursts have by now).

BTDT:

"Hi 2long,
I'm here, I'm reading & feeling your pain and frustration of trying to restore effective communication to your marriage of 26+ years!!!"

Boy, ain't it HARD!?

"Think back to when you were first dating--did she talk to you then? Was she more open when you first met and married?"

Very definitely. And so was I.

"OR did she just sort of change as the routine of married life fell into place."

She did change. And, of course, so did I. I thought I was hunkering down to raise my family. I thought SHE was too. That's where we started getting on different tracks, though, because we didn't truly KNOW where the other was at. We weren't communicating effectively.

"Of course she changed after the A, but I think it was more of her being a good liar than you being a chump. Obviously you trusted her."

Thanks.

"I think it is very extremely unfair if you try to accept any of the blame for her level of dishonesty."

This is where we got off track night before last when we had the argument blame/guilt fest. I was trying to be cut-and-dry logical about the fact that I am not responsible for her A, but to her it's not at all obvious. For example, she believes that, since I was NOT helpful to her satisfaction after her comment "I'm attracted to someone else and I need your help. What constitutes an A?", that *I* left her no reasonable choice but to have the A. She had tried Cing (but I dont' know whether she did before or after the A started, I THINK it was AFTER), but the C dropped her after 3 visits because she had personal problems of her own and "couldn't see you anymore." My W thought her only other choices were to have the A or commit suicide. She's told me this several times. SO, what to do? Well, I've been thinking about this a LOT the past couple of days (amongst trying to get LOTS done at work!!), and I've decided to bounce this idea off this forum for feedback:

We get absolutely nowhere rehashing events from 12 years ago. They hurt both of us too much to avoid getting angry at each other when we resurrect them. Worse, the details of what actually happened and what's been said have evolved/devolved over time to the point that it will likely be impossible to sort out the truth (logic) and the emotions (feelings) we were feeling at the time. So, my plan is to, in some sense, "give in" and say something like "Look, I know that I am responsible for the things I said and the actions I failed to take 12 years ago, and during your As. In the end, it does not matter whether we equate them in severity to your having the A. What matters is whether we can open up our communication and agree to move forward with a loving, nuturing M."

"I agree with you that if she "needed help" then the right way to verbalize it is in English, not through expecting you to be some kind of mind reader?"

absof***inglutely! I've complained about this "mind reading" requirement many times over the years. Before the A, it was funny. During and now, it's been disastrous.

"How about, "I'm tempted to have an affair and I'm in trouble and need help on how to avoid it?" How about "I think I might be in love with another man and I have been lying to you and I don't like it but I don't know how to stop nor do I want to end it?""

You might (or might not) be surprised to hear that she would probably tell me that she said almost those exact words. Okay, without the comment about her lying to me or the specifics of being in love with a particular individual, but much of the rest. The first quote of yours is almost word-for-word what she said to me 12 years ago. She asked me what was an A? I said "so long as there's no sex, it's not an A" (stupid me). Shortly after that, they had sex. Why? Because she says I didn't recognize the "trouble" she was in was because of the emotional attraction, not the physical (though that was there, too). Even now, I realize that I had THOUGHT about how to react to her emotional attraction (because she had an EA some years before that which neither of us recognized as an A - I just knew it was serious). But I didn't even know who the guy was. I probably said or thought something like "you should probably stay away from each other", but couldn't put my foot down for fear of driving her away - I wanted her to make the decision for herself (and when they went underground, I thought she had). Little did I know that they worked together every day, and went to grad school and shared an office together. It would have been impossible to require NC under those conditions, when getting her M.S. was so important to her (and me, though she belittles that even now).

But this is all hindsight. I can't change it. All I can do is either choose to blame the responsible parties and perpetuate the resentment, or chalk up MY memories of what happened to experience and let HER do the same - and focus on ME and the future.

"I imagine that your W has been unable to be honest with HERSELF for many many years and so how much more difficult would it be for her to be open and honest with you at this stage of the game???"

EXTREMELY difficult.

"It sounds to me as if Openness and Honesty is one of your top EN's... Am I right?"

YEP. # 1!

OH SHOOT! I'm late for a meeting. I'll finish this later.

Okay, I'm back!

BTDT:

" And yet, you are married to a clam... *sigh* Why does it always seem work that say? I guess God tries to balance us all out."

Boy. Why DOES this happen?

"I bet your wife has ENs that require much effort on your part to fill as well..."

NO KIDDING. Worse, the biggest effort is to even IDENTIFY them. When I asked, back in February, what ENs OM filled that I didn't, all she would say for the longest time is "I just needed a little bit more attention." Even now, she still says that. But I think her primary needs are conversation and affection, as you suggest below.

"You have been married for so long now too that you need to get out of the ruts that can so easily beset us all... What I have noticed (and tried to change) about MY communication style is the way I process or filter things my H says to me. I totally twist things in my mind and I now realize it is because of MY OWN insecurities and negative self-image. So I have to practice hearing him for the face value of what he says."

We need to do this too. And for the same reasons.

"I'm just reaching and guessing here, but perhaps, over the years, your W has been intimidated by your particular communication style or expectations and has gone into a shell for fear that you would not understand her or belittle her or dismiss her words or maybe even reword them???"

Exactly all of these! It's amazing to me when I think about it now. She's said "I can't live up to your expectations" - where did THAT come from? I honestly have never believed that I've had high expectations of people around me. If anything, I believe that I back off from imposing them, because that's the only way for their potential to really blossom. That baffled me, and still does, unless I chalk it up to rationalization or rewriting of history.

We BOTH have clearly been rewording what the other has said - or we wouldn't be having such a hard time getting our points across when we TRY to communicate lately. ONLY talking, with care and compassion, can help us with this now.

"If not, then maybe there are some family of origin issues that she has never really resolved."

Hm. Yes, at least for her: Father was an abusive alchoholic. Mother is a co-dependent. Her family had no problem with angry outbursts - that was "normal" communication for them. My family was TOO quiet - getting angry was NOT appropriate for us.

"Something has happened that caused her to feel unsafe to blurt out her truths to you?"

Simply clamming up, on my part, I guess.

"Hmmm.... a frustrating dilemma for you, indeed!"

YES

"All that aside tho, I like the way the MBers are trying to help you focus on you because yes, recovering from this is all about you becoming a better you."

That's for sure. And the only approach that has worked, when I look back on the past few months. Every time I THINK I've been doing good, and it's okay to talk about US, it's backfired and I have to drop back to "me mode."

"My angry outbursts totally caused my H to shut down over the years--emotionally and verbally. I had to stop."

My W was always the one with the angry outbursts, and I shut down. Just like you describe. My W hasn't stopped, though she has "cut back" since a month or so after D-day.

"Do you have anger issues that have caused you to give your wife the silent treatment in the past?"

Yep. AND the present, unfortunately. After that recent argument, we've both been reluctant to talk much about anything R.

"You said you tend to withdraw rather than yell. Silent treatments can cause the recipient to walk on eggshells and withdraw as well..."

Exactly. We've talked about this, too. At least we're talking about it.

"Either that or just simply look for someone else to talk to--esp. if your W has a big need for conversation or admiration! Just a thought. You can't be admiring someone if you aren't speaking to them!!! "

It's a thought that's right on the money!

"Nevertheless, it seems to me, after reading all this, that you still love your wife way too much to Plan B just yet."

I honestly hope you are right, here. I DO love my W very much. But everything she continues to say about our R and M in general, and her career objectives, makes me wonder if the wall that grew between us is insurmountable after all. ("All in all it's just another brick in the wall" - Pink Floyd).

"Dr.Harley may think differently tho because of the number of years your W has taken advantage of your stability."

I'm thinking about asking him.

"HOWEVER, Plan B might be just what you need to negotiate the final END of this prolonged affair, and give your W a much-needed wake-up call. It doesn't sound to me like she really wants to lose you or that she can even afford to lose you. It sounds to me that she has gotten to take you for granted for way too long because she can count on you to be there."

I have to reconsider trying plan B (despite my vote on SC's poll) for these very reasons. The fog and the ice are so thick when it comes to our M and her "friend", she can't seem to make the obvious choice on her own. She doesn't want to MAKE the choice, and so when I told her "it took 11 years for this R with OM to develop, it will take you more than the average amount of time to withdraw. I'm willing to give you time" she seems to have taken that to mean that she can string this out for as long as she wants (like the past 11 years), because *I* don't want to loser HER any more than she wants to lose me.

I did tell her, that night, that I would not stay in a loveless M. She replied, "why do you think I've stayed all these years, when I could have left you 12 years ago?" To me, that means she loved me enough to cakewalk, but since we weren't communicating intimately the whole time, there is no reason for me to believe it was any more than that, or the kids, the comfort and convenience, or our extended family that really kept her here. And, to me, THAT's the definition of a "loveless M." I want a M, with her or someone else, that's very intimate on all levels, exclusively so, and is honest, fun, and fascinating. That's all.

"In any case, I wish you all the best. Stick with MB and don't give up on yourself! "

I do promise!

<small>[ July 12, 2002, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

2L;
Read this post by DeWayne....this could easily apply to you or me...especially his quick version of how things transpired which he wrote for J.R.

DeWayne's Story

SC:

I think you're right. I believe many times that plan B wouldn't work on my W, never mind our family and house situations.

To a degree, I believe I'm lately realizing that my W is also disconnecting from her OM in her own way (at least that's what she's been saying for the past 6 months!), and that maybe if I would just back off on the pressure, just love her and work on myself (forget the M, for the moment, it won't go anywhere just yet), maybe she'll feel comfortable enough with her 12-yr "choice" to stay with ME that severing the connection with her OM will be "easy" for her. Maybe "obvious" is a better word than "easy."

thanks for the links!

SCBI:

"Right now you and your W are on those opposite corners of the shared prison cell that was created by the A. Don't give her a reason to escape like I did my W. Try to meet her in the center of that prison cell. You may have to make the first steps. You may spend a lot of time doing all the work. But this prison sentance is long and parole is only granted after good behavior is displayed consistantly without expecting anything in return."

Very well stated. JL's been giving me much the same advice in private. I'm also realizing that harping on the past and trying to analyze everything that went wrong isn't helping any either. Only reason I was doing it, or so I thought, was to "try" to show her I understood why she made the choices she did, without approving of them. All I accomplished, though, was to put her on the defensive. I don't want to do that anymore! (interesting aside: I TOLD her that last night, and she responded "that's what you keep saying!" Which is why I say "I don't want to" rather than "I'm not going to" because, frankly, I don't KNOW if I'll do it again unintentionally).

No, you guys are right. Plan A right means being loving and keeping my problem-solving self-analysis to myself, and NO W-analysis at all during the process. That's her job, and she can't come to the realization that she needs to do it if she's worried I'll do something to hurt her.

Now I'm just picturing her and her reaction to my anger the other night... <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> Maybe if I DON'T forget that look, I can really turn this mess around!

2L; check out my update after Steve's call today and LMK what u think....

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> No, you guys are right. Plan A right means being loving and keeping my problem-solving self-analysis to myself, and NO W-analysis at all during the process. That's her job, and she can't come to the realization that she needs to do it if she's worried I'll do something to hurt her.

Now I'm just picturing her and her reaction to my anger the other night... Maybe if I DON'T forget that look, I can really turn this mess around!
</strong> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wise words, my friend. If we can only remember to LIVE them, we just might make it...thanks!

SC:

And remembering isn't the only thing. Since the rollercoaster ride continues, the emotions make me say and do VERY STUPID things, even though I'm otherwise very proud of my plan A, that can still undo a lot of good progress.

It's amazing how hard it is to put our high-sounding words into practice when we go home, planning to say something like ILY, and get something like "whatever" in return. I haven't actually had that happen, but things like that. But I'll bet if I asked her if she still thought that M was legalized prostitution, she'd probably say yes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

From the thread on "reasons" WSs give for having the A, upon discovery (which is ending up being another "fog latin" thread), I can once again see ALL the hurtful things my W is still saying to me, so I know they're fog and should be disregarded.

Still, it's one thing to know that, and another to work around them.

We had a very good talk this morning, especially about our argument the other night and where we were both coming from.

My W says she's very close to "losing it" still, and that argument almost pushed her over the edge. Well, I will accept that. I definitely realize a lot more about the flaws in my communication style even now that I feel like I'm learning a lot about Rs and M. But arguing, trying to "fix" her problems, or placing blame (even if I feel it's unintentional) are getting me nowhere. I told her all this.

She said that my "lecture", or what I felt was a "logical assessment" of past events that got us here, reminded her of my mother and the way she used to "lecture us" as kids when we were sick (for those of you who don't know, I was raised by Christian Scientist parents - I felt we were supposed to ignore when we were sick - I felt that was impossible, and so it always felt like a lecture without simpathy to me). This was an eye-opener for me. She's right. And so I acknowledged that I was trying to be analytical about my feelings and about past events about OUR feelings that will never be possible to fully reconstruct with any objectivity. And so that is what I mean when I said the other day on this forum that I will acknowledge an "equal level of responsibility" for "12 years ago". She knows I'm not responsible for her A, but she's right that I'm responsible for my part of our withdrawl, and her feeling that she had no choice but to go to OM for her needs is valid, however painful to me to realize. Blaming her for that, as if I were the only injured party ignores the fact that she's very injured by her torn emotions and inability to commit over the past 12 years.

Our talk included other things about the house, what we're going to do about things like that, as well as about our R. I won't push anymore, if I can keep my hurt under control that is, but she does know that I can't put up with OM for long.

She told me for the first time this morning, that she talked about the A with her IC. She said the IC asked "What is it about OM that you like the most?" She said "He isn't demanding. He tells me what he wants, but he doesn't make demands of me." IC asked "What is it you like about your H?" She said "He has very high ethics and moral values, and he's commited to our family." I told her "You realize of course that this is a common thing about As, that the A partner isn't demanding because you aren't with them all the time. If you were, it wouldn't be long before they did seem demanding." She said the IC pointed that out and she agreed (and this is where her comment "you can love someone until you have to live with them" came from).

This isn't recovery, by any means. She's still only just beginning withdrawl, and I'm not sure she realizes, yet, that she'll have to keep starting over whenever OM contacts her. I think she IS starting to realize that each restart is a LB$ withdrawl for me. I won't tell her about my plan B deadline that I set 3 months ago for mid-October. I'm not sure I'll "stick to" the date, and I hope that I don't have to implement it at all, but since part of her still is in love with OM, I might eventually have to go to plan B to protect myself from the continued hurt over that fact (12 years now), and my remaining love for her.

I want to be happy again. Truly happy. I also want HER to be happy. I'd like to be able to say that she'll just cut OM off and let US work together, and in some ways I think it's a possibility after this morning's conversation, but I think it's important to be prepared to separate and let her think by herself.

We both agreed, though, that we have work to do no matter what we end up doing. I told her that I need to address my communication issues whether M'd to her or not, because I don't ever want to treat another W like I did her. She agrees with the approach.

I plan to have a good weekend. You folks do so, too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />