I was perusing some old posts and thought I would post the link for this one. It's one of mine from 12/99. I was in quite a state then. I used the board to waffle back and forth so that I wouldn't present that face to my FWS. Anyway, there was a lot of meaty stuff in here from the people who replied to me. My stuff was just whining for the most part, so don't pay any attention to the whiner behind the curtain. There were some wise people posting then(as now)...some are still here, others haven't been seen in a while. The ones who haven't logged on since last year's BBS upgrade show as user "Yes". If you are really interested in who a particular responder was, ask me and I can most likely tell you who that particular "yes" was...enjoy...

A revelation on the way to the shrink

Dewayne,

Nice to see you coming out of the woodwork. As always I know that your words will help someone.

To all the newbies, or not so newbies Dewayne & many of the posters on the thread he links to are truly wise ones.

Thanks for bringing this up.

DeWayne,

I've always been curious by your story... your WW managed to make her way back to you, despite STILL working with OM... I think a lot of us are in that boat - contact continues, and will for the foreseeable future.

I'm sure you've had to repeat your story about 50 times by now... so I won't ask for that... but in the end, what main factors did you see that led her back to you?... my guesses would have "time" and "patience" on the list...

sing - You are such a sweet young lady!!!!

J.R. - I was one of the "lucky" ones. My W never truly gave up on us(I know now). She was going thru a mini-MLC(at 37). Add to that the fact she is a master "partitioner", one who can compartmentalize the most extensive situations. This seemed to doom us. She felt that I didn't want to be with the person she was and OM did. OM was a pretty good manipulator and this worked to his advantage.

As long as I continued a good Plan "A" and continued to let her know I wanted pretty deeply to work things out, she continued to be a professional "cake-eater". It wasn't until she felt me slipping away, that she actually turned back to the M. In fact, it took about three of these "slippages" before it was permanent.

I would have never done a Plan B, because I knew my W well enough to know that she would have seen Plan B as me walking out of the marriage permanently, no matter what the Plan B letter said. Later on, she confirmed to me that this would have indeed been the case.

Anyway, she slowly terminated the relationship with OM, unbeknownst to me. She never told me much of anything about him and her or what was going on. Even when I asked, she rarely had an answer. She tells me now, that she doesn't really know why she didn't share the events in the death of the affair that would have given me peace of mind!

I always believed that she could easily terminate the affair and maintain a working relationship if she chose to. Women in general seem to be able to do that. How many times is a single guy dumped with the words "I just want to be friends". The amazing thing is that almost always, women really mean it and there will never be a re-ignition of the "romance". Men, as a rule, can't really do that.I personally think OM is dirt. Even my IC said that he was a "scumbag". But if I try to influence her choice of friends, she sees it as "control".

W had many fog-induced as well as legitimate grievances about me and our marriage. My plan A demonstrated to her that I could make the changes she wanted. It even went so far as to alleviate the imaginary "fog-induced" complaints. That made it much easier for her to come back and much harder to rationalize the affair.

One of the biggest turning points for me personally was my discussions with DuncanMac. He told me that she was going thru a "bad as I wanna be" phases and there was nothing I could do except wait for it to play out. He sure was right.

In retrospect, she was never as far out the door as I had thought. She had the one physical session with OM 2 days prior to D-Day and even though he applied the most pressure he could without becoming obnoxious about it, the sex was never repeated.

Today, she still works with OM, though not on the same two-person team as before, she still talks to him, but now only about work-related things. She told me the other day that she makes a lot of effort to avoid him much of the time. She feels disgust at herself over what happened and is starting to see(with my help) how he manipulated her over and over.

I don't know if this answers your question. If not, let me know. I think I will continue going thru my old posts and pointing at the ones I think my help others.

DeWayne;
I happened on this post, and wanted to let you know that at this very moment, as I am living thru what I hope is the beginning of the end of my WW's A, these 3 paragraphs brought me great hope. Thanks!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As long as I continued a good Plan "A" and continued to let her know I wanted pretty deeply to work things out, she continued to be a professional "cake-eater". It wasn't until she felt me slipping away, that she actually turned back to the M. In fact, it took about three of these "slippages" before it was permanent.

I would have never done a Plan B, because I knew my W well enough to know that she would have seen Plan B as me walking out of the marriage permanently, no matter what the Plan B letter said. Later on, she confirmed to me that this would have indeed been the case.

Anyway, she slowly terminated the relationship with OM, unbeknownst to me. She never told me much of anything about him and her or what was going on. Even when I asked, she rarely had an answer. She tells me now, that she doesn't really know why she didn't share the events in the death of the affair that would have given me peace of mind!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Heartpain:
[QB]sing - You are such a sweet young lady!!!!

Thanks Dewayne, alas, I may be sweet (my sons would disagree) & I was raised a lady but young except heart I never will be again.

You made me laugh. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

DeWayne,

Who is yes?


I believe the "betrayed" often rushes the process. I know I certainly did. I wanted to start rebuilding right away. I think I'm seeing something in Harley's method that I didn't get before either. The purpose of Plan A is to leave a good impression. Once I decided to just let her go and stop with the marriage saving, my ex got a whole lot nicer to me.

Then there is Plan B. The purpose of Plan B is to let the new relationship die it's own death, without interference. Only after the end of the affair can any rebuilding program begin. I bet it only works when the "betrayer" decides it is time to come home on their own without any pressure. Maybe when Dr. Harley meant "6 to 18 months" in Plan B, he meant "it'll take 6 to 18 months in Plan B before you see any progress". I definitely didn't wait long enough here to tell.

This part hit home to me, as I am letting go and not sure if I will wait long enough to tell.

thanks DeWayne,

Your posts are thought provoking,

D. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Ha, ha, DeWayne, now that you've responded to me, I've got you now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

HP: "In fact, it took about three of these "slippages" before it was permanent."

JR: Can you elaborate on those a little more? What made the last more special than the others? (If anything - or was it just "time" for recovery?)

HP: "I would have never done a Plan B"

JR: If I recall, though, you did move out for a while, right? And she did too... but there was quite a bit of contact, I believe. Did "reality" of the separation, even with contact, have an influence on her thinking at all, from what you could observe? You don't have kids, right? I know Steve had asked me what my plan B should "look like", given what I know about WW - and issues like not having kids can make a case for separation with some well-planned contact (I believe that's what he was trying to get at). Sounds like that might have had some benefits for you.

HP: The amazing thing is that almost always, women really mean it and there will never be a re-ignition of the "romance"."

JR: I'd sure like to believe this for WW... She's shown a history of "falling off the wagon" - has attempted more than once, I believe, to "go sober", but failed. My guess would be OM plays a role in that, too. Being young, single and naive, he's got nothing better to do than pursue a married woman, I guess. (And I know he pursues hard, since WW has admitted that he desparately wants to "date" her! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> )

HP: "He told me that she was going thru a "bad as I wanna be" phases and there was nothing I could do except wait for it to play out."

JR: I know the same is true for me also, based on miscellaneous comments WW has made at times... "freedom", "independence", etc... Can you put some general timeframes around your situation out of curiosity?

HP: "She feels disgust at herself over what happened and is starting to see(with my help) how he manipulated her over and over."

JR: My guess would be that her allowing you to "help" in this way would have only been well into recovery? I could probably do the same for my WW, but only once she starts seeing him differently herself... if ever. Those of us in active A's need to remind ourselves, I guess, that if things were so great with OP, WS would be long gone - so I know there's been plenty of LB'ing on that side of the fence... just waiting for it to get old.

Thanks for the words of wisdom!

sing - You are much too modest...I've got it on you in the age category, so you are still "young"...

WillGetThruThis - The particular "yes" you asked about was a poster called Nonplused. Just look up posts for member# 1697. I particularly agreed with the comment made "I believe the "betrayed" often rushes the process.". I know I was guilty of that too.

Hi, JR - I'll try to address your questions in order:

elaborate on "slippages"
After she got the apartment, there were three or so times where I truly had given up. Remember that I had filed for divorce in 9/1999 because I had given up at that time. The "slippages" occurred in Jan, Mar and Jun of 2000. In each case, I calmly and with care discussed finalizing the divorce. We just needed to sign off on the property settlement agreement(which we had worked up together and agreed to) and let the judge know. The D could have been final within a week or two. Anyway, at each time, W would start crying and saying she didn't think it was the right thing to do. I would eventually cave in and back off which she would always be grateful for. But still, no commitment to the marriage. What I didn't know at the time was that she was starting to shut down the EA from late Mar or early Apr. She never told me about this. So each time I caved in, I unaware of the real reason she wanted me to wait.

I don't think the last one was any more "special" than the others except for the fact that the A was almost over by then. She wanted it over, but didn't want to hurt him as she felt responsible for the pain that he felt and she was trying to dump him gently.

moving out
Yes you are right, I did move into an apartment from 5/99-9/99. This came about because for over a month she had been complaining that she needed to move out to "clear her head"(fogese for see OM more often). We weren't making any progress and she attributed this to the fact that she needed to be "alone". Finally on a trip to the grocery, I suggested picking up a bunch of those "apartment for rent" magazines. We spent 2-3 hours going thru them. When she appeared disinterested, I asked why. I was told that she was reluctant to move because she would miss the house and the cats. I knew she had made up her mind that the informal separation was necessary and I also knew that this was going to drag out for months if I didn't address it, so I suggested that I could move out for a while. This was agreed to and she expressed much gratitude. So that's what I did. However, I specified that if I did this, that OM could not call the house, could not come over or anywhere close. She reluctantly agreed and later used this to bash me about how I 'controlled' her. My purposes in this were that I knew from this board and the Harleys' writings that "time to myself" usually meant "time with OP". She later insisted that when she moved out it would be with none of these "rules".

We saw each other at least once a week during that time. I stopped by when she wasn't home to do lawnwork, landscaping work and other "honey-do's" that she would want. Often I spent the entire weekend with her at the house. We usually met once a week to have lunch together and talked on the phone almost every night. We agreed that I would return home during the third week of August to live with her that week and see how things went. When the time came, she kinda dragged her feet, but we did it anyway. With the exception of a couple of days where LB'ing occurred on both sides, it went really well, but I could see some kind of reticence in her eyes. At the end of that week I went back to the apartment and called in a couple of days to get her evaluation of how things went. She said that she thought things went well enough, but she wasn't ready for me to move back. A few days later I called her back and told her that I had thought it through and was moving back on Labor Day weekend whether she wanted it or not. She started making noises about us "trading places". I told her that she had made no progress at all(maybe a LB, but it was true and she would admit it) during the time I moved out so if she wanted to "trade", she better be ready to move everything and divorce. So she stayed, but griped and grumbled the whole time about how it should have been her to move out. I reminded her that I had not insisted that I move out, just volunteered to help her.

One reason that I knew she hadn't made progress on "us" or even herself during my absence was that fact that I knew beyond a reasonable doubt(surreptitious spying) that non-work hours contact with OM had increased astronomically after I moved out. They spent hours and hours on the phone several nights a week. So I knew things weren't working for us.

I believe that the continued contact between us kept her from withdrawing completely from the marriage and proceeding full-steam with OM. "No contact" with me would have basically ended the marriage in her eyes.

re-igniting the romance
I don't believe that all women can do this, but most can if they want to. I'll bet you are absolutely right about OM playing a role in your WW's "falling off the wagon". He is probably like our xOM in that he is skilled at manipulation. xOM would often tell W everything she wanted to hear and support her in trying to make a decision on the marriage by saying things like "You know, Babe, you have to make the decision that is the best thing for you, but remember, we were born to be together". Another thing he would do would start crying everytime W would indicate that it might be best to put some distance between them. That would start up the "guilt engine" and negate any progress W had made. Again, I'll bet it's the same for your WW.

W receiving my "help"
You certainly are right about having to be well into recovery. I wasn't allowed to say anything bad about OM until early-mid 2001. I had early on realized that bad-mouthing him was a definite LB for W, so I had put the brakes on big-time on that issue. A couple of times over the first year after D-Day, I slipped up and made a single disparaging comment about him. I heard about those in every argument for two years. As far as your comment about things being great with OP, you are absolutely right. I think that is why Plan A can work so well at times. The view from the WS is not usually an absolute, but a relative. The relationship with OP is almost always judged by the perceived relationship with BS. Plan A can allow the BS to keep the marital relationship tolerable or often, attractive which makes it difficult for the WS to "pull the trigger" and leave.

timeframes(without referring to my journal, I am a little "fuzzy" on some of the dates)
4/11/99 - D-Day; spent that weekend with both crying and agreeing to MC. I arranged the MC the next Tuesday, but W decided to go on her own and subsequently refused MC.
5/15/99 - I moved into an apartment
8/15-22/99 - I moved back in for a "trial" reconciliation
9/4/99 - I moved back permanently
9/13/99 - I filed for divorce after failing to get WS to agree to MC. Four different times during the summer including the prior weekend, WS would agree to MC then change her mind within a day or two. A week or two later WS finally engaged and consulted with an attorney as I had brought the papers home and gave them to her(wanted to spare embarassment of being "served" at work). The result of the meeting with her attorney was for them to respond to my filing with a request for joint marriage counseling.
10-11/99 - MC with W's IC. MC had some excellent tools to use to resolve marital conflicts, but between her and W I was made to feel like I was the one who had the affair. MC had even told W at one point that I had "forced" her to have the affair. I kept trying to bring up W's refusal to let me know what the situation was between her and OM, but was shot down. We finally quit after five or so sessions. I just found it a waste of time and money as we weren't addressing the immediate, marriage-threatening aspects of the relationship.
11/99 - Both me and my IC had sessions with W's IC. She told my IC that OM was simply an "altruistic" friend. It was obvious at that point that W had not been leveling with her IC for a long time. In my session, I "lowered the boom" about W and affair. Told her much of what I knew for fact, etc...
12/31/99 - W came back from counseling despondent. Finally was told the next day that her IC said that W's demand of me to move out and have an "informal separation" with no rules was something she could understand my feelings against. She told W that she would not allow her H to do something like that. Then, she dropped the "bomb" and told W that there was absolutely no use in trying to work on the marriage as long as OM was in the picture. W accelerated efforts to find an apartment after that.
1/7/2000 - Our 11th anniversary, W signed lease for apartment, forgot about anniversary. Some time after that I quit fighting the idea of her moving out and started assisting in anyway possible. Moved furniture from the house into the apt., helped get utils, phone, etc. setup, and so on. Apartment was ready to move into by 1/15.
mid-2/2000 - W's sister came for a week's visit. W wanted to be in apt before her S came, but she could not "pull the trigger" so she stayed at the house. Called OM several times as he had broken a leg skiing and she was worried about him. Still deep in the fog at this point. One night after her sister had gone to bed, she and I were up and she asked if she could call OM. I said sure. I dozed off while she was on the phone and woke up to hear her in the next room telling OM he "really knew her body" and later crying and sobbing uncontrollably about what crap her life was and how important he was. After her sister returned home, I told her I was done and she needed to be with OM. She listened quietly, then had several crying spells over the next few days. When I asked what was bothering her, she responded that she didn't think that it was the right thing to do(us splitting up). I agreed to give it some more time, but insisted that she had to get this "apartment" thing done and out of her system ASAP.
5/13/2000 - After an argument and hearing for the umpteenth time how she needed to move to the apartment and still refusing to tell me what was going on with OM, I told her that I was done, she was moving that weekend whether she wanted to or not. We spent Sat/Sun moving the last things she needed into the apt. I let her know I would be contacting the realtor to get the house sold. Again, she is crying saying she doesn't think that that is the solution. I call the apt that Sun night to make sure she has everything and get asked to come spend the first night with her. and the next and the next... I had to be out of town the next week, so she was going to stay at the house to take care of our cats. It took about three weeks or so before she went back to the apt after I returned home. When she went back, she asked me to stay with her. Another trip out of town, another extended stay for her at the house. I think the last time she stayed in the apt. was in 8/2000. She never spent a single night in the apt that she didn't ask me to stay with her(it was only a couple of miles from our house).
late 9 or early 10/2000 - finally agrees that she wants to stay and work on the marriage and that OM is finally not "a factor". First faltering start into recovery...

Sorry this was so long, JR, but that is a failing of mine....Hope this helps

Bumped for J.R.

Thank you, DeWayne!

So it sounds like between mid 5/00 through 9/00, she was still kinda, sorta dragging her heels... And even then you say that after that, it was the first faltering steps into recovery... How was she behaving during this time? Still pretty foggy? Withdrawal signs (given she'd been shutting A down)?

Would you guess that continued daily contact at her work with OM was slowing the pace of recovery? (I know, hard to gague since you don't have anything else to compare it by.)

J.R. - In the time period you mention, 5-9/00, I don't think she was dragging her heels as far as the A went, it was more dragging her heels in opening up communication to me about how she felt. It wasn't until 9/00 that she actually said that she wanted to restore the marriage. She had felt like that for most of 2000, but didn't let me know. I was forced to make my decisions on her actions, i.e. what she did as well as what she didn't do.

From about 4-5/00 I had sensed very strongly that she didn't want to leave. It just took her a long time to bring those deep feelings back to the surface where they could be expressed. From what little she has said, I think that she pretty much stopped the affair completely by May. She was truly and deeply guilty at having to hurt OM, but she had really been trying to distance herself since March or so. Actually she started in December lamenting to him that she knew she had to hurt someone and that was killing her. She just didn't tell him at the time that it was going to be him.

I truly think that her withdrawal period was fairly short. It was the period of trying to understand how all this happened that was lengthy. In fact, some of that continues to this day. During that time she kinda withdrew from the world, not OM.

The daily contact did slow down the start of recovery, but I believe it was more because the constant exposure didn't allow her to start sorting thru her feelings. She started a major guilt trip because of what she felt she had done to him and felt responsible for helping him to get back on his feet and re-start his life without her. He is a pretty messed-up individual. He had started IC at her urging and he dropped the first two counselors he saw because they both told him that to get his life in order, the first thing he had to do was to drop W. At the time(Jan 2000), they both agreed that the two therapists were nuts and that that wasn't a part of his problem.

For us, probably the biggest part of recovery was the re-opening of communications. This process continues to this day. We aren't where we should be yet, but the progress has been steady, if slow. The physical part of the affair I had pretty much forgiven by Sunday night of D-Day weekend. It was the EA and it's length that did the most damage to me.

Okay... this paints a good picture for me... the more of 'em the better, I say!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

One more thing to ask, and I don't mind if you don't want to answer, given the nature, but how about the SF scene throughout this... were you completely cut off for the whole time, till...?

Hey, J.R. -
"...I don't mind if you don't want to answer..."
I don't mind answering anything. I am surprised when I go back and look at old posts as to what I was willing to say in the past!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Anyway, that is the strange thing...SF was 1-2 times/week on average during the whole A. It only slacked off in the last 9 months or so to 1x/month. There are other reasons for the decline(physical well-being, etc...), but SF during the A was actually about twice as frequent as it was before D-Day!!

I attribute this to my W's almost unparalleled ability to "compartmentalize". The EA prior to the one occurence of PA was on-going for about 12-18 months prior to D-Day. I was caught completely unaware at disclosure because there had been very, very little "leakage" into our homelife of affair residue. I think that she worked extra hard at compartmentalization during the "cake-eating" phase to reduce the drag on her ethics and morality. Part of this process would have been to increase SF. Another factor was, I think, the extremely high-level of emotions during that time.

These are just guesses on my part. I have asked her about this and she has no answer even for herself.

Now about this picture....are we talking Da Vinci/Michelangelo, Monet or Picasso as far as the visual style?????