This is a continuation of the thread from Funked's thread.

The question is accounting for the possibility of the WS fense sitting, having both the BS and the OP at the
same time.

How would you, should you be on guard ??

Your thoughts...

Thanks DRS

I think this is a situation that is inevitable. The question is for how long?

When there's an active A, and the BS is Plan Aing, the WS is usually in a pretty good situation, and some time will pass before something happens.

What can happen? The A could end for reasons related or unrelated to what the BS is doing, the WS could begin to feel enough guilt that they may take action, interaction between the BS and WS could escalate or de-escalate, etc. The point is, that generally speaking it is NOT anything the BS does or does not do which causes a decision to be made by the WS.

During this time, the BS suffers a very painful suffering; living and loving a WS, getting very little (if anything) in return, with the constant reminders of the A (some overt, some covert), and all the BS can do is hang on, get stronger, get better, learn, grow, improve. It is very rare for something the BS does to affect the eventual outcome of the A. But inevitably, sooner or later, the A will end (yes, there's a very small percentage that turn into Ms, but it's VERY small) and when it does, the WS will have had the benefit of seeing the very best of their BS, and if they've decided they want to rebuild the M, they will.

In those cases where the BS reaches the point of not being able to emotionally handle this admittedly very difficult situation, or their love for the WS diminishes to the point of almost disappearing, there is the option of Plan B. Plan B allows the BS to keep enough of their love for the WS alive for when the A eventually ends, and thus give the M a chance to recover. At the same time, it allows the BS to grow even stronger, now without the daily reminders of the A, without having to give without receiving, etc. For the WS, Plan B can be a wake-up call, a shock, or a welcome relief from the "oppression" of the BS. One cannot predict that unless one knows one's spouse very well.

If Plan B does "shock" the WS into a decision, great. If not, once again, the natural course of the A will run, and in most cases the end will come. At that point recovery is again possible, and at this point the WS will most likely have to prove their sincerity and thus begin to rebuild.

Should you watch for this? Yes. But not because you need to do something about it. You can't. Only to help guide you and your feelings to know if you can hang on or if you're reching the end of your love for the WS.

Many BSs (me included) feel that when there's a long period of fence-sitting or cake-eating, it's probably time to think of Plan B, but watch out and do it for the right reasons; your emotional inability to continue Plan Aing, or the very reduced level of love left for your WS. The WRONG reason to do it is to "punish" the WS for the prolonged cake-eating, or to "force" the WS to decide. I know; it's very tempting, it almost impossible NOT to do it for these reasons, but try not to.

Fence-sitting is a natural result of Plan A and an active affair, and cake-eating is as well. It is but another step in the process, and admittedly a painful step for the BS when it seems to last "forever", but it is NOT a step where there is really any action the BS can take to stop it or end it. Plan B might do it, but if it is not done at the right time, with the right preparation, and for the right reasons, it could backfire. THAT is what the BS needs to watch out for.

I think this is a valid point to examine closely...

I see so many who flounder - for a long time. It's often times BS who Plan A or even "divorce bust" - until it becomes difficult to see any real gains in either party.

I think the general premises we see promoted:

- don't apply any pressure
- don't talk about the A or R
- be happy, cheerful, confident and giving
- be mysterious, don't be too eager, etc.

... these are all good things - for a while. A great way to sum up a large part of this debate - I think - can be found in:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=007757

I took a stroll by divorcebusting.com's BB recently and I think people can slip into ineffective patterns using any "technique" out there.

If I were to make a personal observation - based on all I've seen - is that the most effective thing in the end is to simply "let go". And that means completely let go. One can do that with love, but it does mean being prepared to move on...

I think Plan B brings a person much closer to that stage, but it isn't even that far, since we're still supposed to be "waiting" while there. I think that's why a strong Plan B is better than a "weak" one - because a strong one can convey the message that "I'm willing to be done with the M unless you're willing to change." Of course, every situation is different, people are different, and learning on the fly is a mandatory thing, I think, if anyone wants to be successful with this.

I think we can draw the WS towards us by using the correct principles of Plan A, 180's, etc. - but it's the final step of letting go completely that really draws the attention of a fence-sitter.

There's many cases of "cyclical" behaviors... a BS threatens Dv, the WS comes running back, they get comfortable again, remain in la-la land of the A, become cold, and the process repeats. That's probably as bad as a fence sitter who's being treated like gold, since it reinforces that the BS will cave in because they want the M - more than their own self-respect and peace of mind.

In this respect, I think Dobson's approach at its core might be right on... but probably after some time building the right foundation, such as with Plan A... Which then reflects Plan A, followed by Plan B in the Harley world.

My growing belief is that my self-respect and dignity is worth more to me than my M... sad but true in some ways. And so that attitude will allow me to detach with love, hold my ground, and possibly start moving on (e.g. talking to lawyers, moving away, etc.). It's these things that, in the end, will finally start moving me towards a new life, one way or another - since I realize my WW is still paralyzed, despite being unhappily separated. The power of the addiction is still strong enough to have her suffer rather than admit she's wrong.

But... I do agree that the above mentioned behaviors (i.e. be confident, etc.) are important to fully integrate into one's personality, regardless. By making them a daily routine, one's general attractiveness increases, and a future R (WS or otherwise) becomes much easier - and more pleasant. That's why I envision "dating" my WW if she ever comes to a point where she's willing to give up OM... but that's a prerequisite now, and I can't back down. She's been on the fence far too long.

Thanks Space, JR

Great inputs!

I have some other thoughts too, but have to run and start my day. Be back <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks again...

DRS

Hi, back from a day of being Mr fixit.

I (we) have been part of the repetitive process, and with each new fall, the new depth is deeper. I have not plan B because of the IL's who live with us. They are 88 and would take a split very hard. So we have going up and down to the point where the WW has given up on the marriage. and me too. The plan B is over due.

While all of this is happening, as you have stated, the A goes on, and I live with overt, not as much covert, indications. She is ok with this because of the cake-eating/fence sitting.

Every thing you two say is very accurate. JR, for me also as I learn that Plan B is entered with a decision for D, (accepting the possibility, but unwanted), it IS a matter of letting go to be able to truly enter a plan b.

Spacecase, very right! Fence sitting and cakeeating are going to happen with a Plan A and an active affair. And a RE activated affair.

Also, I think, when the WS is in withdrawal there is a lot of fence sitting because they may not be committed to the M enough to make a clear-cut decision. They know the A can't go on, but also question the M restarting. A wait and see sort of thing. To some even the A may be less painful than the work it takes to recover.

At this point, right after the A stops (NC et al) from what I read in the Funked thread, it is better to start a modified Plan A. A modification that says to continue Plan A as though the A continues (aka, no clinging, hovering, talking of A outside of C etc) but now with both partners doing a plan A to meet eachothers needs, and following the four rules Dr H presents. (Time, honesty, protection, and care)

I just re-read the Mis application of Plan A. I get a sense from reading posts here that most BS when the A is "over" will actually start on the mis-application instead of continue with a good Plan A. that is what I did <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Space, you said "Plan B might do it, but if it is not done at the right time, with the right preparation, and for the right reasons, it could backfire. THAT is what the BS needs to watch out for. "

What do you consider the right preparation? I understand the right reasons you explained, and the right "emotional timing", what about the right preparations?

Both of your posts articulate the BS's position (if they know it or not) in regards to fence sitting and cake-eating. The posts should be in a "quotable quotes" and given to BSs and WSs to help explain it will happen and how to deal with it.

Thanks for your time and input

Anyone Else?

DRS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Space, you said "Plan B might do it, but if it is not done at the right time, with the right preparation, and for the right reasons, it could backfire. THAT is what the BS needs to watch out for. "

What do you consider the right preparation? I understand the right reasons you explained, and the right "emotional timing", what about the right preparations?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">DRS: What I mean is the right preparation mentally and emotionally. You have to be ready to separate from your WS totally, and be prepared for it to end in D, if the A does not end and/or the WS does not decide to try to re-build the M.

You should have gotten to the point where you've let go of your spouse emotionally, and basically are ready to end the R.

Also, It only has a chance of success if it is followed by a solid Plan A that has given the WS a taste of what a good spouse you can be.

Rats! I had prepared another reply but got an error submitting it... oh well, I'll try again...

DRS: Also, I think, when the WS is in withdrawal there is a lot of fence sitting because they may not be committed to the M enough to make a clear-cut decision. They know the A can't go on, but also question the M restarting. A wait and see sort of thing. To some even the A may be less painful than the work it takes to recover.

JR: I think when the WS is in withdrawal, there's precious little the BS can do about anything!! (Not that I've been all the way through withdrawal to recovery with WW, but I have seen "incomplete withdrawals" - not pretty!)

Wait-and-see... yes, that's where watching the WS's behavior can be useful, I think... watching for whether they're doing some "real work" in resolving their issues, or just biding their time for a decision to be made for them, or hoping "the answer" will just magically appear.

DRS: I just re-read the Mis application of Plan A. I get a sense from reading posts here that most BS when the A is "over" will actually start on the mis-application instead of continue with a good Plan A. that is what I did

JR: Yeah, I think Plan A needs to be the "default position" for all BS (and WS for that matter) - unless Plan B is called on. It's been said before: you're either in Plan A or B.

Furthermore, I think it's important to recognize that cake-eaters are often so lost, they don't realize they're hurting everyone - BS, OP, themselves, their families, etc. Or they realize it, but have become so "sensitized" to the pain, they can tune it out. I think these folks are the most "dangerous": fence-sitters + pain supperssors.

As Dobson points out, many WS are not going to be willing to make changes when the waters are calm. And Plan B does roughen them, although may not even be enough, sadly. I think some WS see it as a "trick" or a "game" - and so they play it back the other way...

I believe that for many, until there's a real reason to change the course of their river, they'll continue as long as they possibly can. Why? Because then they can avoid the pain all the more. Or so they think they can. Deep down I have to believe they KNOW it will catch up to them one day. Or again, maybe they hope that by having decisions made FOR them, they can shift the blame for any failure elsewhere.

It's a very tricky road with a fence sitter, but everything I've seen tends to indicate that a hard-line is usually good... Why? Because they're fence sitting for a reason... if they were so darn sure of themselves, they'd find it easier to justify, misbehave and move on themselves. By fence sitting, they send a message, "I'm so unsure and confused."

And I'm seeing in my situation that if there is still love for the BS, they'll refuse to budge, even when the BS tries to push them off the fence... E.g.: My WW refuses to leave our apartment and find one much closer to where she works - would save her probably 1.5 hrs a day commuting. This baffles both IC/MC and I - but I think she wants to hold onto something that's "ours".

I'm personally gaining such a strong sense of acceptance now that I may be willing to push her off the fence a little harder soon. We'll see how it goes...

<small>[ July 14, 2002, 08:00 PM: Message edited by: J.R. ]</small>

Hey...sorry not to respond before now but I have been busy getting ready for our move (we just sold our house). Anyway, all of the posts above were right on but I wanted to add to it, especially since you put me in the tag line.

SC is right. I have found with the fence sitting that my WW has been doing since i came home from Bosnia in April is pretty frustrating and damaging emotionally. But I can give you something that has helped over the last few weeks. What I decided to do was take a bar graph and everyday, post where I thought my WW was with me. If she seemed closer to me or we had a good day together, then it went up. If she called the OM or I LBed, it went down. I had the chart go from 1-10, with ten being a great day and one being...well, we all know those kinds of days.

A strange thing I have started seeing over just this first few weeks of doing this. While there are ups and downs from day-to-day, I can see a general (very small) trend upward. It's kind of like the stock market. This seems to be very helpful because for the BS, the changes that come in reaction to your Plan A are often so small and so slow, that it is hard to notice. And then we get panicked or tired because it seems that nothing is happening. So, just for you, try this. it may help you keep your sanity in all of this.

My WW is still fence sitting. but, I have noticed a gradual change over the last month or so because of two things. 1. I finally am instituting a pretty good Plan A; and 2. like the harleys say, these A's general end on their own and hers seems to have run its course. She seems less panicked at home now. She is spending a lot more time at home. She talks about future things now, instead of just bringing up how I was the worst husband since Ghengis Khan. Little things like this. She no longer wants to talk about the OM (when I came home, all she wanted to do was explain things). she doesnt even want me referring to him as her "boyfriend" or anything like that, but instead she says that he is now "just a friend." Now I know that is fog talk, and there is still an EA going there, even though the PA seems to have ended before I got home, probably sometime in March. But, these are the little steps that Steve Harley talks about that lead the WS back to the light and out of the fog.

My major problem with Plan A is over-reacting to anything the WW does. If she is nasty, or goes to see OM or talk to him, I want to blow up, threaten to leave or even threaten to take the OM's head off (figure of speech guys!!). If she does something nice, or talks about future things, or just has a day with me like yesterday, where she spent all afternoon with her head on my chest as we lay on our bed watching movie after movie...it's these times the BS wants to push things, to say it's finally over and everything os going to be okay. And then we scare the WS, they run back into the fog and we are frustrated again because it seems nothing has changed.

That's why I agree with the guys above. In that bar graph, we cannot concentrate on the day-to-day blips. If we do, we will be reacting and in Plan A, that is NEVER good. We have to be proactive and concentrate on what we can do.

Now, the term "fence sitting" is a very good one. but, we cannot talk down, pull down, trick down, coax down, etc our WS from that fence. the only thing we can do is cause them to fall the other way OR...we can rot the fence out from under them. Dont concentrate on the WS on the fence...concentrate on destroying the fence. that is the essence of Plan A. We are to concentrate on creating a home life, and a spouse that our WS's look at and realize after awhile that all of a sudden, so much has been deposited in their love bank, that they wake up one day and say "I think I am in love with my spouse again and I do not know how that happened." it happened because they woke up with no fence underneath them, and no wall to hide behind.

This has been the hardest thing for me to learn. Even this weekend, I was headed toward a HUGE LB because I lost sight of cutting down the fence, and instead was listening to my WW as she went on another tirade. I even talked to Steve harley on Friday and the one thing he kept saying over and over again is "If she is going to call him, what can you do about it? If she is going to leave you, what can you do about it?" And he is right. We cannot stop their behavior or them following the lie or addiction. but what we can do is leave them naked to their own false notions of who we are, who the OP is and the reality of the pain and destruction they have caused. Steve told me that I was right. That my wife should get on her knees and ask for forgiveness. that I was right that she should make it up to me. But, I can be right all day and in the end, I will be standing before the judge as he says "You're right...she did a horrible thing...now you are divorced." So, he told me, do I want to be right or do I want to save my marriage. If we save our marriage, they will see the error of their ways and their guilt. And they will come to you and ask for forgiveness. but that will happen in their own time.

The short of this is that Plan A needs to be a thoroughly thought out WRITTEN plan for the BS, where we can refer to it daily, chart progress on a bar graph to hel us keep our sanity. And one more thing. I have finally asked one of my friends to keep me accountable, who I made read the MB methods and Plan A, and will be there for me when I feel like blowing, to help me stay on track. Steve said friday that I need to learn to be an actor, to constantly show myself as upbeat, confident, etc in front of my WW, even when I dont feel like it our she is unloading on me. So, I am trying to do that, and if I really feel down, I find an excuse to leave, go down the street, cry, *****, complain on my friends shoulder...and then go back home with a smile painted on my face and refocused on the mission...saving my marriage.

I hope this helps. I am stuck in the same position as you, and there are times that I heed none of this advice (called an LB). But i am getting better at it, and the LBs are coming further apart. And I have noticed in direct correlation that her demands, her threats, and even her contact with the OM has lessend tremendously. And it has caused a huge strain on their relationship because they no longer have me to focus on, and since they have to focus on each other, it is the hope that Plan A will allow them to see the reality of their relationship and it will die a natural death.

I hope that helps. we all here need to keep pumping each other up. the reality of the situation is that if we do what the harleys say, most of us here will get our marriages back better than ever. But a lot of that success depends on what we do with ourselves and if we concentrate on destroying the fence (walls) instead of concentrating on pulling our WS our way.

In His arms.

Hi, Hope everyone had a good weekend.

Thanks for the comments, its good to see many of my thoughts are not way out there....

SC: Yes I see where the emotional preparation is very important and I have gotten to the point to let go, my question was, I guess, wondering about the "packing boxes, straightening up the check book" type of stuff. I think now this is the mechanical stuff

The mental and emotional prep is important I think for two reasons, one for the BS to be able to carry on without too much depression and pain, and two, to not show the depression and pain and maintain a good Plan A as you say. We are very much agreeing here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

JR: Me too, yesterday I did a good reply and lost it in a glitch inposting. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Fence sitters + pain supressors are dangerous, and I think the sooner a BS can recognize this the better, to self protect and better the plan A. In fact, the sooner a BS can see any fencesitting the better. That's why I think I started this tread, to talk about FS ing, its importnace to the process of recovery and what if anything BS (and WS) can and cannot do....

My WS is one who will wait for decisions to made for them....very frustrating. So if I try toforce a decision, it becomes a LB. But now after your thought of cake-eaters and FSer being so lost I can see where they are struggling also, struggling not to struggle that is.

Your WS has been fence sitting for a while? I figure for My WS its been since 12/01, two weeks ago we decided to separate,but we are still in the house together....Are we BOTH fence sitting? For us the love is not for the BS (me) but for my FC to her parents (both 88) and their care...

JR, you said "I believe that for many, until there's a real reason to change the course of their river, they'll continue as long as they possibly can. Why? Because then they can avoid the pain all the more. Or so they think they can. Deep down I have to believe they KNOW it will catch up to them one day. Or again, maybe they hope that by having decisions made FOR them, they can shift the blame for any failure elsewhere."

So true.......been there. An interesting thing is for the BS to know this might happen and some ways let plan A account for it. Account for it? W've already agreed there is no accounting for it, only to continue with Plan A (working to tear down the fence as Mortarman states) or Plan b to rock the fence or stir up the calm water.

All with watchful patience, as stated, the WS probably doesn't see any of this.

JR, after your posts I sense you may have had some more thoughts about your situation. We have done one cycle of the break up get back, but with out direction. If you go that way, what do you think about using the Four Rules of Marriage (time, honesty, protection and care) as rule for recovery? Or does that question start a different thread?

Mortarman: Thanks for sharing your experence, the bar graph suggestion and comments by Steve. I(we) are 21 years military also ....

I put you in the tagline because of your good comments to Funkedup. I thought that the FSitting possibility was being left out and it was important to think of it. Your comments help a great deal.

I really like the teardown the fence analogy. Also, I think a lot of BS should read your comment

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The short of this is that Plan A needs to be a thoroughly thought out WRITTEN plan for the BS, where we can refer to it
daily, chart progress on a bar graph to hel us keep our sanity. And one more thing. I have finally asked one of my
friends to keep me accountable, who I made read the MB methods and Plan A, and will be there for me when I feel like
blowing, to help me stay on track. Steve said friday that I need to learn to be an actor, to constantly show myself as
upbeat, confident, etc in front of my WW, even when I dont feel like it our she is unloading on me. So, I am trying to do
that, and if I really feel down, I find an excuse to leave, go down the street, cry, *****, complain on my friends
shoulder...and then go back home with a smile painted on my face and refocused on the mission...saving my marriage. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it would help them remember their goal, even when they are in the day-to-day ups and downs.

A thought, we've been talking about FSitting to end the A, or a "wait and see" initially after the A. But once the A is over, could there be such a thing as FSitting to start the recovery? I'm thinking about folks who try to restart with out any "plan" and are just coasting not creating a plan or even a direction. I think this leads to the "cyclical behaviors" Is this just Fence sitting by both people? to get the recovery started, really started or is it procrastanstion to keep from being hurt some more?

I know many excellent thoughts have been written here. It has helped me understand better,

Thanks DRS

Hi, Hope everyone had a good weekend.

Thanks for the comments, its good to see many of my thoughts are not way out there....

SC: Yes I see where the emotional preparation is very important and I have gotten to the point to let go, my question was, I guess, wondering about the "packing boxes, straightening up the check book" type of stuff. I think now this is the mechanical stuff

The mental and emotional prep is important I think for two reasons, one for the BS to be able to carry on without too much depression and pain, and two, to not show the depression and pain and maintain a good Plan A as you say. We are very much agreeing here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

JR: Me too, yesterday I did a good reply and lost it in a glitch inposting. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Fence sitters + pain supressors are dangerous, and I think the sooner a BS can recognize this the better, to self protect and better the plan A. In fact, the sooner a BS can see any fencesitting the better. That's why I think I started this tread, to talk about FS ing, its importnace to the process of recovery and what if anything BS (and WS) can and cannot do....

My WS is one who will wait for decisions to made for them....very frustrating. So if I try toforce a decision, it becomes a LB. But now after your thought of cake-eaters and FSer being so lost I can see where they are struggling also, struggling not to struggle that is.

Your WS has been fence sitting for a while? I figure for My WS its been since 12/01, two weeks ago we decided to separate,but we are still in the house together....Are we BOTH fence sitting? For us the love is not for the BS (me) but for my FC to her parents (both 88) and their care...

JR, you said "I believe that for many, until there's a real reason to change the course of their river, they'll continue as long as they possibly can. Why? Because then they can avoid the pain all the more. Or so they think they can. Deep down I have to believe they KNOW it will catch up to them one day. Or again, maybe they hope that by having decisions made FOR them, they can shift the blame for any failure elsewhere."

So true.......been there. An interesting thing is for the BS to know this might happen and some ways let plan A account for it. Account for it? W've already agreed there is no accounting for it, only to continue with Plan A (working to tear down the fence as Mortarman states) or Plan b to rock the fence or stir up the calm water.

All with watchful patience, as stated, the WS probably doesn't see any of this.

JR, after your posts I sense you may have had some more thoughts about your situation. We have done one cycle of the break up get back, but with out direction. If you go that way, what do you think about using the Four Rules of Marriage (time, honesty, protection and care) as rule for recovery? Or does that question start a different thread?

Mortarman: Thanks for sharing your experence, the bar graph suggestion and comments by Steve. I(we) are 21 years military also ....

I put you in the tagline because of your good comments to Funkedup. I thought that the FSitting possibility was being left out and it was important to think of it. Your comments help a great deal.

I really like the teardown the fence analogy. Also, I think a lot of BS should read your comment

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The short of this is that Plan A needs to be a thoroughly thought out WRITTEN plan for the BS, where we can refer to it
daily, chart progress on a bar graph to hel us keep our sanity. And one more thing. I have finally asked one of my
friends to keep me accountable, who I made read the MB methods and Plan A, and will be there for me when I feel like
blowing, to help me stay on track. Steve said friday that I need to learn to be an actor, to constantly show myself as
upbeat, confident, etc in front of my WW, even when I dont feel like it our she is unloading on me. So, I am trying to do
that, and if I really feel down, I find an excuse to leave, go down the street, cry, *****, complain on my friends
shoulder...and then go back home with a smile painted on my face and refocused on the mission...saving my marriage. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it would help them remember their goal, even when they are in the day-to-day ups and downs.

A thought, we've been talking about FSitting to end the A, or a "wait and see" initially after the A. But once the A is over, could there be such a thing as FSitting to start the recovery? I'm thinking about folks who try to restart with out any "plan" and are just coasting not creating a plan or even a direction. I think this leads to the "cyclical behaviors" Is this just Fence sitting by both people? to get the recovery started, really started or is it procrastanstion to keep from being hurt some more?

I know many excellent thoughts have been written here. It has helped me understand better,

Thanks DRS

Hi, Hope everyone had a good weekend.

Thanks for the comments, its good to see many of my thoughts are not way out there....

SC: Yes I see where the emotional preparation is very important and I have gotten to the point to let go, my question was, I guess, wondering about the "packing boxes, straightening up the check book" type of stuff. I think now this is the mechanical stuff

The mental and emotional prep is important I think for two reasons, one for the BS to be able to carry on without too much depression and pain, and two, to not show the depression and pain and maintain a good Plan A as you say. We are very much agreeing here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

JR: Me too, yesterday I did a good reply and lost it in a glitch inposting. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Fence sitters + pain supressors are dangerous, and I think the sooner a BS can recognize this the better, to self protect and better the plan A. In fact, the sooner a BS can see any fencesitting the better. That's why I think I started this tread, to talk about FS ing, its importnace to the process of recovery and what if anything BS (and WS) can and cannot do....

My WS is one who will wait for decisions to made for them....very frustrating. So if I try toforce a decision, it becomes a LB. But now after your thought of cake-eaters and FSer being so lost I can see where they are struggling also, struggling not to struggle that is.

Your WS has been fence sitting for a while? I figure for My WS its been since 12/01, two weeks ago we decided to separate,but we are still in the house together....Are we BOTH fence sitting? For us the love is not for the BS (me) but for my FC to her parents (both 88) and their care...

JR, you said "I believe that for many, until there's a real reason to change the course of their river, they'll continue as long as they possibly can. Why? Because then they can avoid the pain all the more. Or so they think they can. Deep down I have to believe they KNOW it will catch up to them one day. Or again, maybe they hope that by having decisions made FOR them, they can shift the blame for any failure elsewhere."

So true.......been there. An interesting thing is for the BS to know this might happen and some ways let plan A account for it. Account for it? W've already agreed there is no accounting for it, only to continue with Plan A (working to tear down the fence as Mortarman states) or Plan b to rock the fence or stir up the calm water.

All with watchful patience, as stated, the WS probably doesn't see any of this.

JR, after your posts I sense you may have had some more thoughts about your situation. We have done one cycle of the break up get back, but with out direction. If you go that way, what do you think about using the Four Rules of Marriage (time, honesty, protection and care) as rule for recovery? Or does that question start a different thread?

Mortarman: Thanks for sharing your experence, the bar graph suggestion and comments by Steve. I(we) are 21 years military also ....

I put you in the tagline because of your good comments to Funkedup. I thought that the FSitting possibility was being left out and it was important to think of it. Your comments help a great deal.

I really like the teardown the fence analogy. Also, I think a lot of BS should read your comment

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The short of this is that Plan A needs to be a thoroughly thought out WRITTEN plan for the BS, where we can refer to it
daily, chart progress on a bar graph to hel us keep our sanity. And one more thing. I have finally asked one of my
friends to keep me accountable, who I made read the MB methods and Plan A, and will be there for me when I feel like
blowing, to help me stay on track. Steve said friday that I need to learn to be an actor, to constantly show myself as
upbeat, confident, etc in front of my WW, even when I dont feel like it our she is unloading on me. So, I am trying to do
that, and if I really feel down, I find an excuse to leave, go down the street, cry, *****, complain on my friends
shoulder...and then go back home with a smile painted on my face and refocused on the mission...saving my marriage. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it would help them remember their goal, even when they are in the day-to-day ups and downs.

A thought, we've been talking about FSitting to end the A, or a "wait and see" initially after the A. But once the A is over, could there be such a thing as FSitting to start the recovery? I'm thinking about folks who try to restart with out any "plan" and are just coasting not creating a plan or even a direction. I think this leads to the "cyclical behaviors" Is this just Fence sitting by both people? to get the recovery started, really started or is it procrastanstion to keep from being hurt some more?

I know many excellent thoughts have been written here. It has helped me understand better,

Thanks DRS

Hi,

I feel like possibly clarifying / qualifying my last post, because I think it might sound like I'm contradicting Mortarman, when really I'm not...

I too believe we can't MAKE a WS do ANYTHING... Plan A is NOT intended to MAKE them DO anything, nor can it be expected to do so... it's a way of life, really... it's something we need to do for ourselves, to re-learn the behavior patterns that make / made us attractive in those "early days" when dating our WS.

As for pushing them off the fence... I think that's where Plan B comes in... and I've said it before... I'll say it again... the main motivation in going to Plan B should NOT be to expect anything... other than to move ourselves further down the road to recovery... It's a "waiting pattern", designed to protect our remaining love, and is primarily intended for situations where a WS refuses to stop a destructive behavior (such as an active A)...

I tend to agree that if a person is feeling "good" about their progress or are seeing signs of "defogging" by the WS, Plan A is the way to go... There is much risk in separation in marriage, so why introduce unnecessary risk, when Plan A is so ingeniously designed to keep our WS around - it's been said that a woman (or man) never leaves someone they perceive as being happy. Hmmm... maybe I should do a poll on that one! (Okay, I'm going "poll crazy" here, I know! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> )

But that's where careful observation and KNOWING YOUR SPOUSE comes into play... I think fence-sitters and cake-eaters all too often do not "get it" when all they see is Plan A, with no boundaries. I think part of it is a matter of RESPECT... I think it's true that a lack of such is often a key ingredient in the perpetuation of A's beyond their "natural life"... I think both Harley and Dobson have a lot "right".

I also think there's little to nothing most BS can do to influence the course of an A... Most often the natural death (from what I've observed) is a consequence of: a) time (to let those brain chemicals die down, ususally 18-30 months), b) reality (anything that counteracts the fantasy / bubble / dual life affects the "quality" of the A, thus it's perceived "value"), c) LB'ing between WS and OP (so universal it seems that it must have psychological roots, I suspect), d) the love for BS (although denied, it is usually there in some form), e) WS gaining a better understanding of the nature of love, etc. (if they continue to have a false belief system, they may always idealize OP).

DSR: JR, after your posts I sense you may have had some more thoughts about your situation. We have done one cycle of the break up get back, but with out direction. If you go that way, what do you think about using the Four Rules of Marriage (time, honesty, protection and care) as rule for recovery? Or does that question start a different thread?

JR: Oh do I ever have some more thoughts about my situation... but I'll leave that for another time, another thread I'll start sometime soon. Still trying to formulate some things in my mind.

I think the 4 Rules are essential. Without them, you're bound to lather, rinse, repeat the cycle again and again. The key is buy-in from WS - AN HONEST BUY-IN. And that means actions backing up the words.

It's a common pattern to see WS's start recovery with something less than enthusiasim... seems like a "stupor"... maybe a rebound effect from the "high" of the A. In any case, I think all we BS can do is assess whether they're being sincere enough to "try", and be cautious... if we see major slippages, then we've got the power to act accordingly. I think Dobson makes a case for once recovery beings to let them know that the sky will fall if they mess up again... There's probably a balance for each situation.

I wanted to jump in here and ask more about those who enter recovery without a plan and fence sitting. I believe that is what I have been doing for at least a year and a half now. Is it possible that my WW is just not trying and is so paralyzed by the A that she cannot commit ? Has anyone else experienced this and if so, how did or do you overcome it ?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">DRS: SC: Yes I see where the emotional preparation is very important and I have gotten to the point to let go, my question was, I guess, wondering about the "packing boxes, straightening up the check book" type of stuff. I think now this is the mechanical stuff

The mental and emotional prep is important I think for two reasons, one for the BS to be able to carry on without too much depression and pain, and two, to not show the depression and pain and maintain a good Plan A as you say. We are very much agreeing here
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, of course there's the logistical part of Plan B, and that has to be done according to each one's situation. I've basically planned my Plan B pretty well, and I'm ready to implement it within probably 2-3 days of that decision, when it comes.
This includes a Plan B letter, and all logistical preparations, the kids, etc.

I wouldn't quite put it as "maintain a good Plan A" while in Plan B, but yes; basically you need to be prepared to be civil and "nice" when you DO have contact with the WS in Plan B. Not quite a Plan A-type nice, but nice. Remember, if you get to Plan B, it's now time for the WS to PROVE their intentions and goodwill to you, not the other way around. You're basically saying I won't live with you like this, and if you want us to have a future together, you'd better be ready for some serious changes and committment; this time under MY (MB) rules.