Hi. Since last Wed. I haven't talked to WH except for exchanging kids. He hasn't called me either. On Wed. we had our last counseling session and I told him I couldn't take the lying anymore about him seeing OW.
I am really struggling with the distance. He spent the weekend with OW and his new group of younger, party type friends (this is new since he left). Do you think he ever thinks of me and wonders if he made a mistake?
When he left, he said he needed a break, it wasn't over yet, then it was he didn't want to work on the marriage, and then he told me the marriage was over and too much had happened since he left to repair things. He said I can't never let go of anything that happens, etc.
I suspect that his relationship with OW is more serious that I thought. He still denies that she means anything to him, etc. He is also having a great time with male roommate, OW, and seeing the kids occasionally. He has low stress. I did the pros and cons of why he would return. For him, the pros for staying away were greater (fun, no conflict, new girlfriend, new set of friends, FREEDOM). If he came back, it would be to a relationship that needs work, money issues, three loud kids, etc.
We still share checking account, money-although I don't know what he has been using the last three weeks since he hasn't used any except for gas and groceries.
I would appreciate any comments. I have decided to move on but part of me wants to leave an open heart in case the unlikely happens -he indicates an interest in returning.
I have spent four months of yelling, talking, etc and about four days of being friendly. He said he wanted to be friends.We had done a few things together with the kids and then he goes right back to hang-out with OW. In fact, he asked me to spend his birthday with him and the kids. I did. It was fun-according to him-and then he spent the night with OW - soI think saying yes to friendship is giving him the wrong message.
Comments? Should I continue with my no call, no anything except kid talk course of action?
-CS
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Your H has the best of both worlds right now and your friendship fits right in with his plan. You should absolutely keep with your current plan. I know it hurts but he needs to either [censored] or get off the pot. Keeping you in limbo is no way to live. I personally would go to the next step and make it obvious that you do not want to have anything to do with him. If he comes looking for friendship, tell him you have plans. There is only one way to find out if he is thinking "what if" about you and that is to give it right back to him. Make him think that you are on the way out. I would seriously be considering plan B although it doesn't sound like you plan A'ed all that much.

Take care of yourself and take care of your kids. You can keep the door cracked open for him but don't let him come walking through any time he wants.

Be strong and good luck

Can't sleep,
Have done a good Plan A, for at least 2 months? Dr. Harley gives the guideline of 6 months.

Since you say you spent 4 months yelling & talking...I suspect if there was a Plan A, it didn't go well, just yelling and "educating" your H.

I actually found Plan A to be easier while separated. I could go without the lovebusters for a couple hours in the evening, most times on the phone (if the call wasn't already about something unpleasant). My H liked to hang with me & the kids. He also liked his life away from us.

If you don't see why your H would come back...then is there anything for him to come back for?

He won't come back for you to yell at him.

The noisy kids should be spending time with him, with or without you, so that really isn't the issue. If you haven't, set up regular visitation. If he doesn't have a suitable place to take them overnight, evenings are ok. My H was often with the kids at my house, I'd leave or stay, join them or not as I felt like it, or was invited to. But it was his set time with them.

The money issues will only get worse with separation and divorce--a costly time, keeping 2 households going.

Although we always kept our joint account, and my H's paycheck was deposited into it, after about 8 months of separations, I also set up an account just in my name, so that there was money only I had access to, if he changed his paycheck deposit without telling me. At that time he told me he'd never do that...but since we were in our 4th separation, he'd done a lot of things he'd said he'd never do.

You might want to consider a separate account, since you have the kids, and probably the house payments?

You say you are ready to move on...what does that mean? Setting firm boundaries? Plan B? Divorce? If you do want to continue to give your H some time for the A/fantasy to end, reality to set in, divorce probably won't accomplish that at this point.

I think setting boundaries, calling him only about the kids is fine. If you want to spend time with him, that's fine too. I tried to look at it as I was spending time with the man I loved, I should enjoy it. We camped, hiked, went out to eat, actually went to Disney World as a family between separations #5 & 6. And, I look back at that as a fun time.

So, my advice is, first be certain you've done the kind of Plan A you'd like to, so that he does know what he is missing--his family life, a loving you. That can be done with boundaries, like he calls before he comes over, he isn't in the house unless you or the kids are.

Then, Plan B for a time.

I'm apprehensive about the phrase "moving on" because when I used it, I served D papers and started dating (caution! better to wait to date until the D is final)...so I may view the term differently than you are using it.

And, just to let you know where I am coming from: My H & I have been in recovery now 2+ years. I did a long Plan A, 18 months, then "moved on" for 3-5 months before we reconciled. I really wish I had not included OM in my behavior before the D was final. It gave me more confusion and didn't help the possibility of recovery, or the recovery process.

STOIA: Thanks for reply. Your theory is the one that I've been operating on since I returned from vacation. Unfortunately, it is not working. He hasn't called me at all. He knows that I've been avoiding him and he is doing the same. But I do feel in control of my life.
LOR-I appreciate your response. No, I did a terrible Plan A as LHS will attest to. I meant moving on as in I'm planning on a life without WH. As the days pass since he left, things are just getting more and more distant and he is sounding more and more sure of his decision to leave and end the marriage (he said in counseling) I don't know what else to do. I thought maybe these past two weeks he would have missed me or noticed my distance but I think he has used it to make his A with OW closer. I just don't know what to think. Should I hang it up?
=CS

I have been thinking alot about Lor's comment about what does he have to come home to? I think because I feel so insecure about me right now and my life. I think it'd more fun to be him right now too. Who wouldn't like to go party for a weekend? But I don't have those kind of friends anymore and I have the kids 90 percent of the time so I feel like I don't have what he wants (nor do I want to become like his new friends) now.
This distance has been good for me and time to reflect. Last night I read all my old posts and replies. There was so much more interaction between the two of us before. The truth is that I do want him back. I just don't feel like I can do it or it'll happen. He wants different things now than I can provide.

He didn't call the kids again last night. They called him this morning and he said he didn't want to talk to me when they were done. I called him back as we had arrangements to make. He couldn't have been friendlier or more accomadating. I don't get it. He seems to follow my actions..if I'm distant, he's distant, if I'm friendly, he's friendly (but still seeing OW and denying it.

What to do?
-CS

cs...

Do you still desire to be married to him? Do you love him?

Tell him so... Do not ask him IF he wants to be married or IF he still loves you. Once you have said it... LEAVE IT ALONE.

Then... go about doing what you are doing... be distant, but pleasant. ELIMINATE ALL LOVE BUSTERS.

If you can arrange for family outings w/ WH... do... but YOU have to be able to NOT lovebust.

Guess at your Hs ENs and try to meet them.

Really looking at yourself and finding the way to your own peace and happiness is the KEY, however... for me that was pursuing a personal relationship with God.

You can do this... and you can do this even if your WH seems to NOT want your marriage... but YOU have to be willing to go the EXTRA mile... it is VERY difficult, but I can tell you that it has been well worth the effort for me. (check out this book... How To Save Your Marriage Alone )

Hugs,
Cali

CS-

I think the fact that you are back posting is a good indication that you are not ready to give up yet. (I told you you'd be back!) Lor has given you some sound advice, really think about it, look at what you have done in the last few months (which I think you have) and make the needed changes. Get into that good, solid, consistent Plan A and see what happens, then if needed, move to Plan B, that way you know you have done everything possible.

Its not going to happen overnight, and chances are you wont really notice any major changes, but subtle changes will happen. Don't try and analyze WH's actions or behavior, he is lost and going to be doing some really strange things. The more you think about him and what he is doing, the more it is going to jeopardize your Plan A efforts. Just let him go for now, let him be. Sure, he is having a fun time with his friends, but eventually it will start to wear on him. The guilt and pain is there, he is probably trying to hide it, just give it some time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't get it. He seems to follow my actions..if I'm distant, he's distant, if I'm friendly, he's friendly (but still seeing OW and denying it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly! If you push forward (LB's), he will fall back, but if you pull back a bit (Plan A), he will follow. Just like catching a fish, you cant run out in the water and grab them, you gotta bait and lure them a bit, give them something to be interested in. Every moment he spends with you has got to be a LB for OW, just like the time he spends with her is an LB for you. So, the more incentive he has to spend time with you and away from OW is going to help kill the A.

Have you read Divorce Remedy by Michelle Davis? Her 180 and Last Resort technique might be something for you to consider, something that you could incorporate into your Plan A efforts. What do you think would happen if you didn't mention the A, OW, his lies or your M for a week? What if you acted like you were perfectly fine with the way things are and you don't need him for anything? Think WH would take notice of that?

OK, so now about the kids. He is their father, he should be spending as much time with them as possible. Do you have any idea why he avoids them so much? I call my kids every night, I see them as much as possible, I cant fathom a day when I don't have some kind of contact with them. What the heck is his problem (sorry, that really burns me when a dad walks out on his kids like that) I think you need to get some kind of serious visitation (court ordered and enforced) going on this issue. He shouldn't be running around like a teenager, dodging his responsibilities. You have them 90% of the time, you need a break from them as well, time for WH to step up to the plate. Maybe he just needs a swift kick in the backside to remind him of what is important. I'm not saying you should use the kids to get back at him or end the A, but honestly, he is their father.

Your struggling between giving up and staying in the fight, CS, and that is a good thing. It means that you still want WH and the M and you are unsure of what your next move should be. We have all gone through this, its perfectly normal to feel this way. Take a few days to think about what your Plan A efforts should include, look back at the last few months and see what has worked and what hasn't, then develop a solid Plan A that you know you can follow consistently. Maybe write it down so you can review it when needed.

We are all here for you, CS, your going to make it and be ok. I honestly don't think WH has given up completely, he is just lost and needs to find his own way back, just be ready for him.

Hi. The last few days have been OK. Wh showed up 35 minutes early to watch kids and hasn't been rushing off when I get home (but I walk him to door). He hasn't called at all though. He also told me that things aren't going so well with his roommate. Prelude to moving in with OW? If he moves in with her, he'll have no-where to watch the kids on weekends because he can't have them with nonrelative/oppposite sex person for two yrs from separation date.
I just received an e-mail from my atty. She recommends putting our house on the market since WH can't pay everything he needs too and still live. It makes me sad and I don't want to talk to him about it. It's so final.
Regarding kids and WH, I don't know what is going on with him. Guilt? He has always been a really great Dad so I don't understand the distance. Easier for him? He has them this weekend. He has them every other weekend and watches them at my house two nights a week when I work.
No, I don't want to give-up. I am in Plan A and doing well. I just need to figure out this financial stuff and it is definitely a downer. My IC recommended that I get the rest of WH's stuff out of the house (and our bedroom) that he hasn't taken. I guess I will.
Thanks for listening.
-CS

Any ideas why WH is spending this additional time with you? And not rushing off? I'll bet it is because you are getting into a good Plan A and not making any major LB's. If he is not rushing off, it could be because either he really likes being a part of the family, or he really doesn't have anywhere to go (like OW's place). And trouble with the roommate, go figure. Here is a man who has spent the last 12 years with his wife and family, he cant become a single guy overnight! I'm guessing that he isn't too terribly happy with his current lifestyle and its starting to affect his friendships.

Selling the house really bothers me, its such a huge decision to make, especially right now with things being a little uncertain. Dumping a move on this will only add more stress to the problem. Besides, this is sort of a common bond you share with WH, why not hang onto it a little longer and see where things go. I'm afraid selling the house now will give WH the wrong idea about what your future plans are. Its not your fault he cant afford to support 2 households, is it? If he wants to live like this, he needs to take responsibility for it and if that means him getting a second job, so be it. Maybe WH is finally starting to realize the severity of what is going on. I know WW has made several comments about how hard it is for her to make ends meet and that it is a lot harder than she thought it would be. I think she thought OM would come to her rescue, maybe WH is feeling the same way and is now figuring out it aint gonna happen.

Getting the rest of the stuff out of the house might be a good idea though. Maybe just tell him "Look WH, since you are no longer living here, you should take all your stuff, its not fair to me and the kids to see your stuff here and be reminded that right now you don't want to live with us." Maybe that's not the way to do it, but something to let him know it was his choice to move out and he cant have both, either he's completely in, or completely out.

WH is sounds very indecisive right now (that's what is causing you so much grief, isn't it) and maybe his plans are starting to unravel. This is to your benefit, keep that Plan A going and don't give up, you never know what tomorrow will bring. Be ready for anything and everything.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi. I keep doing OK on the no phone calls and no known LB's. Can you believe it? LHS and Cali and all-I'm starting to get it now and I feel so much better about myself for having some control!
No, I don't know why the VERY subtle change in WH regarding rush off time-it's not much longer-but it's longer. I think maybe he's alittle baffled.
Regarding the house, I agree. It seems to soon but I am going to think about it. I haven't told WH yet about the recommendation to sell. One of our biggest conflicts (besides my weight gain) is that he is not involved in the financial matters and I'm not involved in making any real money. So, he hasn't checked the account or paid one bill since he left -he just trusts that I'll take care of it. His checks are deposited into my account. So, the severity doesn't get to him much. He wouldn't get another job. He thinks I should be working f/t. I have been looking so hard for a real job but the market is terrible plus I'm taking the bar in Feb. and it's not a great time for me to be accepting/commiting to real jobs. I need to study in Jan and Feb. He just needed to wait one yr until youngest was in K and I was going to be atty finally and help more with bills, etc. But guess he couldn't wait.
Although WH's words and most actions are very decisive-the marriage is over-I don't completely believe him. We have loved each other forever (he says he still loves me but not in love-doesn't feel any passion toward me) and I think he has some slight doubts.
One issue I am unable to address is the attractive/sex issue. One can't lose a million pounds overnight and he doesn't feel anything for me in that sense. I'm not sure how to overcome that..I guess time. However, I won't ever be the wild/confident person I once was-20 yrs (dating and M) and three kids later. I'm not sure that's one area I can ever overcome or meet his needs over the the younger OW. This also makes me mad too. I shouldn't have to feel that way with my husband. I should be attractive and in shape but why should I have to worry if I'm as 'good' or attractive as her? I have never been unsure of myself in that area before now. It's a rotten feeling.
I'm going away for the weekend to the beach. Thank goodness. I appreciate all your help and for not giving up on me the last three months. I am truly starting to feel better about my actions.
Take care,
-CS

Dear CS
Your story sounds do familiar...Cares but no romantic feelings. Weight issue caused the affair to happen (I've lost over 45 lbs.)but now it's more than that. I'm so tired of trying to make changes and nothing is good enough. At least your H is seeing his children....mine is moving 800 miles away to live with OW and doesn't give a damn about his kids(he was such a loving, involved father, I can't understand it). I wish I could offer some advise or hope...I've just about given up. You're in my prayers.
WG

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Ahh... the winds are shifting...

Change in you will force change in your relationship... FOCUS... FOCUS... FOCUS...

You are doing T-errific! I am very proud of you.

CS-
You go girl! You are sounding so much stronger now, so much more confident in yourself and what you are doing. Isn't it nice to feel that way? And I'll bet that WH is starting to take notice of this confidence as well, maybe that might be part of his change in attitude. You keep doing that Plan A and keep working on yourself, your so much more than OW will ever be.

I'm sure that the decision to not work was a mutual one, W and I made the same decision. We both agreed that it was much more important for the kids to have one parent at home for them rather than have them in day care all the time. We sure had to sacrifice a lot for that, but I have no regrets doing it. You make sure you pass that bar exam, that's something not many people are able to do and something you should be very proud of. That's another reason not to get to serious about selling the house, you need to focus on passing that exam.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not sure that's one area I can ever overcome or meet his needs over the younger OW.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And you shouldn't! Eventually younger OW is going to get old too, then what, WH going to go looking for a younger OW again? I'm sure WH isn't the spring chicken he once was either, so what, that's the joy of growing old together, you look beyond some of the minor physical changes you cant do anything about and see your love for who they really are. Us 'seasoned' players are even more sexy than those rookies because we know what is important in life and what really makes our lovers happy.

Cali is right about the winds shifting and the changes in you forcing a change in your relationship. I'm excited for you and am anxious to see what happens next. Don't push anything right now, just sit back and see what happens. Enjoy your weekend at the beach!

Can't Sleep:

It does sound good here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Just thought I'd pipe in here since you were nice enough to post to me. I didn't realize you were studying for the bar! WOW.

About his relationship with OW being serious--it probably is to him. Dealing with that issue on my part here, too. Seems as though Hs are testing boundaries in real relationships vs. what I'd call "fantasy" (no better word right now) relationships. The more successful you are in establishing, maintaining (in a good positive and healthy way) boundaries, the more likely it seems that YOU will change and become more confident. You're rocking!

Have a good weekend at the beach <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi. I had a good weekend. Do you think my approach is good..here's the story. I've been not LBing at all but also avoiding contact with WH. For example, I arranged for my mother to do the exchange Sunday night so I haven't talked to WH and he's gone until the end of the week. I haven't called him at all except about kids. He sounded irriated about dropping the kids at my mom's (I was running late and didn't want to hold him up) and a bit snotty earlier when he wished me a good weekend. We've had no time spent together for a long time but he hasn't suggested it and before when I suggested it he said no and made-up some excuse.
I don't know if the distance is good or not. The good part is that I'm not calling him nor appearing clingy. The bad part is that I feel that there is a huge distance between us. Thoughts?
-CS

bumping up for thoughts. Thanks.

How do you feel about some limited contact with WH again. Since you have had no contact for a while, do you think that you can handle being around him for a short amount of time without LB-ing? How about using the time you exchange kids as a way to initiate something. You can start out small, see how you handle it and then build from there. So far you are doing really good and it seems like WH is responding to your changes. If he is gone until the end of the week, how about a 'welcome back' dinner with the kids, just something simple and light.

A serious attempt at no contact should only be part of a Plan B, maintaining no contact while in Plan A sends out the wrong signals and will only hurt your chances at recovery.

ditto what LHS posted.

Limited contact w/ no LBs. Let him see your 'improvements.' Check out Divorce Remedy to decide what your short-term goals are and to help you plan the steps to get to them.

Prayer has helped me tremendously and I have seen prayer after prayer answered... simply amazing. I used "Power of a Praying Wife" by Stormie Omartian to help me direct my prayers for my H.

If you aren't in individual counseling check out Dr. Phil's books, "Relationship Rescue" and "Self Matters." Both have good stuff to work on and start out focusing on YOU.

Hugs and prayer,
Cali

Hi. Limited contact may be a good idea but I think dinner is too much. I may ask him to help me with a house project or something. You don't think having conversations, etc. demonstrates that I'm still "clingy?"
WH didn't call the kids tonight. I mentioned to him that it'd be nice if he called them. Once again, he is out of town, and I have no idea how to get ahold of him and he hasn't called. My guess is that the OW knows where he is. I'm sure he called her.
I'm a bit down tonight. I thought after two weeks of distance that maybe he'd show some interest. But it seems to be working against me. Out of sight, Out of mind.
Thanks,
CS

Update: WH did call the kids this am before school (not traditional school) so I feel better that maybe he's going to stay connected to them.
Happy Tuesday,
CS