Well, so much for my being calm and cool about asking my H if he was ever going to ask me to remarry him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

We had spent a nice weekend at our vacation place, just relaxing, riding around, etc. On the way home, something came up about our losing weight (we're both trying), and I said, "Yeah, I need to cut back some more so I'll look nice if I ever get married again." H wanted to know who I was planning to marry, and I told him the first lucky man who wanted to marry me. All very flippant and flirty....

H said, "You're already married." I said, "Legally, yes." H asked, "Isn't that enough?" I said, "No." H dropped the subject.

I waited about 5 minutes and couldn't stand it anymore, so I asked, "Are you ever going to ask me to remarry you?" I guess some of the stress showed through my voice, because H said, "I'm not going to be MADE to do something I don't want to do!" I replied, "I don't want you to do something you don't want to do." Then I dropped the subject, but I couldn't keep a couple of tears from rolling, although I tried to hide them.

Then, H started ranting on and on about how I was trying to force him into something. At one point, he pulled over into a road-side park and said he was getting out and for me to go on home (200 miles!) and he would get home somehow, and that maybe by the time he got home, he would have made his decision.

I said, "No, you've already made your decision, and there's no need for you to get out here."

There was some more stuff said, and then he hissed through his teeth, "Will you marry me? Will you marry me?" I told him, "No. I didn't force you to marry me the first time, and if you feel forced now, then that's not what I want." He said a few more things about having to make a decision about it, and I said, "No, forget it. You've already made your decision, and it's plain that you do not want to remarry me."

We didn't say much the rest of the way home, although we were polite to each other.

After we got home, he decided it was time to fight again. He started in on how we were having a nice weekend, and I ruined it. I told him (AGAIN!) how I felt that we were no longer truly married, and that I felt like we were shacking up. I told him that I had been considering moving into the guestroom because I felt that I was having sex with someone I'm not married to. He said that I might as well go get a divorce if I wasn't going to sleep with him. He said that he'd just take his old truck, the camper, and $1000, and he could start over. He said that I could have everything else. I said that I didn't want everything else. I told him that I had already been thinking about a divorce, but I thought that we could do things in such a way that would protect our kids and our assets. He said, "Well, why do you want a divorce?"

I explained that although I know he loves me, I don't feel that he is able to love me in the way I need....that I will never truly be first in his life. He said that he has been doing everything he can to make things up to me. I said, "Yes, you have. You have been doing everything that you are willing to do. The problem is that I need a husband who loves me so much that there is NO LIMIT to what he will do for me, just as there is no limit to what I will do for my husband. And, if I can't have that from you, I need to be free so that I can date and maybe find someone who will love me that much. If I don't find someone like that, I would rather be alone."

H said, "Well, if you want to date, go ahead and date! I know you didn't go out with many guys before me, so go ahead and date. I'll move out in case you want to bring somebody here. When you get tired of dating, I'll move back in."

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I said, "No, there would not be anyone else brought to this house. Yes, it's true that I didn't date many guys before you (one long-term off/on relationship, a couple of short-term relationships, and a few dates with guys who were all hands); after all, I wasn't allowed to date until I was 16, and I married you at 19. I'm not looking to go out and just have sex. I still have the same morals I've always had...I will not have sex with someone to whom I'm not married. So, in order for me to date, we would have to be divorced. But, you could still live in the house; we just wouldn't be sleeping together, although we could "date" if you like."

I think I was doing some pretty good babbling there!

Anyway, H got pretty nasty after that, and I did finally tell him, "Look, you've got what you've always had, and I think it's been better than ever." He did acknowledge that I had changed for the better. I went on and tried to explain that I no longer have what I always thought I had, and that I will NEVER have what I always wanted. He asked, "What's that?" I said, "A totally faithful marriage, where my H loves me so much that he would never even consider another woman."

He said, "Well, you have that now." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I said, "No, I am a wife who doesn't have a husband, and hasn't had one since the first time you even kissed another woman. That's exactly how I feel. You told me that you "wouldn't be 'punished' for cheating, but that's what I feel you were doing to me every time you told me I was crazy or called me a w#$%^ or a stupid b@#$& when I questioned you about that STD. You said you didn't tell me the truth because you didn't want to hurt me, but saying those things to me hurt more than the truth ever could."

After that, we just let things drop.

Things were pretty strained the next day, although we were polite and civil to each other. After our employees left, he asked me what I wanted to do. I said, "I'm not sure, but I can't go on feeling this way."

Then, he started in with, "We were having a great weekend, and it was all ruined over NOTHING!" I fired back with, "My feelings being "NOTHING" are why I want out."

He did back away from that and apologized for calling my feelings "nothing".

There was quite a bit more said, and finally, I said, "Look, I'm sorry that I didn't just drop things and go whenever you wanted to go. I'm sorry for being such a lousy wife, but I THOUGHT I was doing what I was SUPPOSED to be doing..taking care of the kids and trying to make a home for us."

He got quiet, and then he said, "You didn't do anything wrong. I was the one who f#$%ed up."
He then came to me and hugged me.

So, a positive thing from the whole mess is that he finally took responsibility for cheating. However, I'm not sure that he didn't just say that to make me feel better, as things really haven't changed that much. He still doesn't want to remarry me, and probably never will. I did tell him that if we ever found out that I had a terminal disease or something and he decided to ask me to marry him then, that I would divorce him on the spot because I do not want him to remarry me out of pity.

So, I've been trying to come to terms with accepting things as they are.

Problem is: I'm still not happy with our marriage <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> , although I do things that personally make me happy. He, on the other hand, seems to be fairly happy with things back to normal...with me not asking anything of him, having sex with him and not bothering him while he watches TV. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Lady Clueless,

I assume you are in Plan A ... Blew up once in a while is normal it is not the end of plan A or the world. You doing not too bad ... both of you will let the air our slowly until both of you come to term.

Reduce your LB ... no more chasing him (don't ask about future R). Guess his ENs and his LB limit ... work on those. It is suck that WS does the damage and we suppose to roll the red carpet for them. However, set your time limit !!!. Stale relationship is not good for both of you ... specially for your kids.

Actually it seems that your H lets you meet his ENs ... plan A you butt off.

-RH-

Yeowch.

Well...here's my half a penny's worth.

I think you're putting a TON of importance on having him ask you to remarry him (which is understandable, you want to be chosen and romanced etc...) but it's obvious there are still underlying issues that need to be fixed FIRST! If you aren't happy the way your marriage is now...remarrying isn't going to change much. I understand you want your husband to pursue and romance you...but you DEFINATLY won't get that this way.

I don't know the time frame of your situation...but it sure seems like things are still plenty raw to be pushing remarriage. Things are still touchy for Tutter and she just "celebrated" the year anniversary of Dday. If your hubby is only JUST admitting fault by having an affair...you're FAR from healed.

It's just my opinion, but I think your focus is on the wrong thing.

LC:

"After that, we just let things drop."

Too bad this wasn't one of the first lines in your message. Lots of LBs, to be sure, but I think you might be able to salvage the situation with cooler heads. Just remember that the "remarrying" thing shouldn't be your number one priority right now. It sounds like your H is trying, perhaps failing miserably in the process, but we all fumble a lot along the way. And he doesn't appear to be "with" any program.

Anyway, I'd suggest backing up a bit here and focusing on YOU and what YOU want/need. Don't demand anything from him whatsoever. Be YOU. Be comfortable with YOU. If you can truly polish your plan A, he'll see that REAL change in your attitude and want a piece of it.

Well, I agree with all here that there was some LBs, but I do not see them as major. just let it cool off for awhile. the seed has been planted. The WS's brain has been hardened so seeds dont readily grow there. just got to have a little patience, and water from time to time. believe me, this is my daily struggle also.

One thing I did notice, which my WW has started to do lately, is when the conversation starts to have a finality to it ("I am thinking of divorcing," "I cant take much more of this," or I just stop talking), a funny thing has started to happen. Early on, I found that my WW would just say "go ahead, divorce" and leave the room. But now, if I stop the conversation, without blowing up or doing the ole poor-pity-me routine, that SHE is the one that wants to keep it going, to keep working on whatever we were talking about. Guys, I believe this is called progress in the Plan A world, if I am not mistaken.

Look at your post again, Lady Clueless. It is peppered with statements like "Then I dropped the subject, but I couldn't keep a couple of tears from rolling, although I tried to hide them. Then, H started ranting on and on..." Several times you show yourself stopping the conversation, or telling him he has made his decision and there is nothing more to talk about, only to have HIM come back and want to talk about it. LC...to me, this is progress. It appears he WANTS to talk about it, wants to clear it up somehow. Even if he doesnt want to remarry, he also appears not to just want to drop it or drop your feelings.

So, with that said...DO NOT go running into the other room tonight and start back up! Let the seed settle in. He knows your position. He knows your wants and needs. He appears to be concerned about them, but doesnt know what to do. So, no it is his problem. The best thing (and most FUN thing) you can do now is not confront him, but just let him "stew" in it and try to figure it out on his own. You may actually be surprised one day, when you least expect it, with a proposal.

But, again, Plan A is not about getting that. It is about you. So, your needs are out there. He heard them. He understands them. Now, as I tell myself everyday as I try not to LB, "just shut up, sit back, and watch them squirm as the truth starts to grow in their minds."

I know this is hard on all of us, but really...I have come to the point now where watching my WS struggle with letting go of the anger and actually starting to care again as almost a spectator sport. If we just let our views be known without balling or going off on them, and then just shutting our mouthes, it is amazing what these people will do, even right after saying they just dont know how they can ever love us again.

If it all wasnt so sad and so serious, it would be damn funny!

In His arms.

My husband never asked me to marry him. His mom actually asked him if I was getting a diamond for Christmas, because I should be if we were going to be living together. She wasn't happy AT ALL that we were tarnishing the family name (WHAT AN F**N JOKE!!!) by living in sin. So...yes, I got a diamond, a tiny little ring because he wasn't about to spend much on something that didn't do anything for the farm...and we made plans. But to this day I've never been asked. So would I be blown away if my hubby, on his own accord, came to me one day with a beautiful new ring (mine has barely lasted the 10 years we've been married), down on bended knee, possibly in a romantic setting...to ask for my hand? Wow...it almost makes me cry to think about it. Yea, I'd love it.

But...I chose to be married to THIS man. This totally unromantic, doesn't have a CLUE about how to woo a woman, man. And I love him, and I don't have to have the above scenario or any other to complete my life with him.

This man I am married to is a HARD WORKER...he's amazing at his precision (I joke that he's anal), and he's an amazing builder. The only reason I can think he even bothers to carry around a measuring tape is so his belt loops have somthing to do...because he can eye something with more accuracy than I can WITH the tape. He'll go wherever I ask...granted, I have to come up with the plans...but he'll go. He's a FANTASTIC...FAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNTTTTAAAAASTIC father. Amazing. I often wish I could be the parent he is. Ok...now I am going to cry. This man would give me whatever I want...he just can't come up with it on his own. He loves me...he's just NOT ME. So what. Big deal. Yea, I'd like a surprise romantic cruise or flowers ALL THE TIME. But I have this man, and I LOVE THIS MAN.

If my hubby asked me to renew our vows, I would do it. But I would also stress to him that NOW I am actually more dedicated to the ORIGINAL vows we made because of what I've learned. I feel more committed and married to him today, even after 2 years of hell (1 year seperated). Today I realize the strength of the vows I took 10 years ago...I didn't then. So, yes, I'd do it for a hoot....but in my mind there is no replacing what we have today. I have no need to call it something new.

I think very often betrayed spouses feel "robbed". You sound like you feel robbed of that security, safety and comfort you felt when you married the first time. Hey, I've got news for you. I FEEL ROBBED TOO!!!! Yes, I cheated, I strayed, I broke the vows... But it felt like MY idea of marriage had been taken from ME. Even today I grieve the loss of that fantasy I had pictured. The idea that you can be married to a partner and NEVER WORRY about it ending, never worry about the other hurting you or straying. I wanted to believe we could be who we were and we would still want to take care of one another, that we would just PLAY OUR ROLLS perfectly in our marriage. GET REAL!!! WAKE UP!!! We're HUMAN...and we're young and we're from disfunctional families who wouldn't know a healthy marriage if it bit them in the butt.

But I believed the movies. I believed Disney. I wanted to believe that romance was perfect and easy and all it took was love. It doesn't...it isn't. And remarrying ANYONE won't bring you that. It doesn't exist. Yes, there are more romantic men out there....but many of them also have other issues. Some of them fawn all over their woman because they are afraid they'll leave if they don't. Some use it as a form of control. I gave you all this, now you have to do this or that or whatever I say. Some do it for show.

When my hubby goes a time without giving me flowers...I feel I have a couple of choices. I can feel hurt that he is neglecting me...or I can feel glad that he feels secure enough about our relationship to know that I won't leave if he doesn't walk the line. When he goes too long and I don't have flowers...I buy some for myself. He gets the hint just fine...usually gets very apologetic, that it's been on his list etc etc... I assure him that I do in fact enjoy them...but it's no deal breaker if I don't get them. I want him relaxed...not walking on eggshells.

Just the other cent and a half's worth...just my opinion. Take care.

Hi, All,
Thanks for the responses. Yeah, there were some lovebusters in there, but I'm just about to the point where I don't care.

I've been Plan Aing for over FOUR years now, and I'm not getting any younger (I'm 51). I keep thinking, "Is this how it's gonna be for the rest of my life?"

My H seems to be content as long as things are going his way and he doesn't have to put out more effort than he wants to. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> No matter how nicely I put it, no matter how careful I am to use "I feel" statements, any indication that I'm not satisfied with anything he does seems to be a LB. He is quick to attack...his method of maintaining control.

I've resigned myself to knowing that he will likely never tell me the whole truth. I think I've pretty much figured out what all has happened over the past 29 years anyway. So, what I want is a fresh start...the total committment that I have never really had in our marriage....the love that I haven't felt in a long, LONG time (although I do believe that he loves me again, as much as he appears to be able).

Things HAVE been better over the past year, when he finally cut daily contact with Cafe Woman. But, you know what? I don't think it would bother me any more if he DID start going to her restaurant again. It doesn't bother me if he speaks to her when we meet at the club. It may be that her getting married a few months ago has eased my mind somewhat. I dunno...

We're getting along fine, now, but I'm still wrestling with the idea of staying in this marriage. I probably will, as a divorce WOULD adversely affect our finances, and as our kids both work for us, they would be adversely affected, as well. So...I'll probably just keep on doing what I need to do to keep myself happy, and try to keep a little hope that one day my H WILL want to put forth a little more effort.

It's just getting to that level of acceptance that is so hard!

Hi LC,
I've had a dreadful time getting this post to post.

I know your timeline, I remember your other names & know you've been here around as long as I have, 3+ years. You were doing Plan A when I was. That's a long struggle.

But, your H really hasn't fully dived into the recovery process, except for being home and telling you he's faithful. He's not real romantic, and sometimes his behavior is questionable.

I don't know how you've broached the renewing of vows any other times, but I can tell you how this one reads. You say the 2 of you were having a good time, at least on the surface and you broad-sided him. He obviously thinks he IS married, so marrying you isn't on the top of his mind. You sound as if you wanted him to READ YOUR MIND. He's confused/angered by your need for remarriage & didn't jump into it enthusiastically and you verbally thumped him & turned into a martyr, a reminding-him-what-a-failure-he-is-as-a-husband. He capitulated and you stayed mad because it wasn't his idea. It actually became a deal-breaker as you began to talk about divorce and what's wrong with him.

I'm really not trying to be harsh, but the flirty "next guy who asks" might have been ok, but why not just take his hand and say forthrightly, "Mr. Clueless, I really want to renew our marriage vows. It's really important to me. Would you be willing to do that for me?"

Sure, it isn't as romantic as it being his idea, but neither is what you did.

I'm pretty good at martyring myself, and it is probably one of the worst ways to communicate with my H, we had all those separations, and my being "martyrish" gives him that "gotta escape" look. Your H reacted similarly. So, I find that being straighforward "I want XYZ, what would you be willing do" creates better communication, and a more positive outcomes. I might even get what I want <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . Which beats yearning for it and being mad he doesn't guess what to do and blowing up.

I find it disturbing & contradictory that you went from wanting him to renew vows to talking about divorce. The new vows won't fix your marriage.

We did new vows and, at most, they were a symbol, a ritual to begin our new stage of our marriage. But we still had to do the work of remorsefulnes & forgiving & loving & being trustworthy & building trust, being partners & lovers & friends. The re-exchange of our rings & vows (just us, on a Mexican beach) gave us a starting place. Divorce words shouldn't be a part of a committed marriage.

The best thing I see in your post is that you both talked. It can be difficult to jumpstart communication, so don't lose that gain made through painful & painfilled honesty.

I don't recall if the 2 of you ever went to counseling, even if you did, this would be a good time to go again. You are still angry and I don't know if your H knows how to do his part in recovery. Perhaps if an outside person, like a counselor, guided him through the process it would seem more reasonable, or doable to him. It would also be a place where you can say "I need/want" and someone else can mediate through how the 2 of you can make that happen. Perhaps he'd even stop periodically doing those stupid, crummy bar-things that are part of the problem and lead to even more distrust of him.

I know you've been at this a long time. You've put in your Plan A, been a giver. You doubt your H is capable of being your partner. Now, while he's still listening, make a list of what you need from him, go through it, find out what he's willing to do. No time like the present to try a little POJA.

Or, if you are ready to give up, you can do that. You've put in your time. But, since you wanted the new marriage so much, I doubt you are really ready for divorce, even though sometimes your posts sound like your H is your enemy.

There's a quote from Dr. Laura that speaks to me: "You marry an elephant and get mad at it that it isn't a cuddly rabbit." I took a long look at my H, there are things about him I love, things that kinda drive me nuts, and things that worry me. At this point, he'll try to do anything I want him to do, and I will for him, but some things--important to the other-- just don't work for us or aren't in our mindset, will always need a reminder to do. But if a reminder works, I can do that, why wouldn't I?

Your H is going to disappoint you. Likely you will disappoint him. You need to decide what comes next...more disappointment & miscommunication or problem-solving & proactive resolution.

I'm not intending to put this all on your shoulders, it is time for your H to step up, but if he doesn't know how, there has to be a way for him to learn, or at least to get a "clue" that works for him.

I'm sorry you are so frustrated.

Hello M'Lady

I see not much has changed since you last posted about this subject.

I think I understand how you feel. My mantra has been " Change myself and hope my spouse will react favorable to those changes."
But four years, well, that's a little long to hope he will see what's up and start to change.

It almost looks like a pride issue with him now. He has invested so much in saying no that it would make him look bad now to change his mind. I would suspect he is not all that humble.

How long has it been since he has been in the state of intimacy? Long time? What exactly is he doing to contribute to your happiness? To your marriage? Is there any good there at all? Is this your only issue right now? ( not counting all the past stuff that we know about)

Can you live with him knowing that he doesn't get it?

I hope the good outweighs the bad, and that you can. Perhaps he will get it someday. It has taken me 25 years, but I think my W is happy now, our improvement continues. But the question is this - why did it take me 25 years? Why did I just now get it?

I can't answer those questions, and only you can say if you have enough to go on with him - if he gives enough for you to want to. I hope there are good times also.

Give Lord "C" our best wishes. He needs them. You have them also, hope you know that.

SS

I just started a response to y'all, but lost the danged thing!

Nope, H refuses to go to counselling. Says there's nothing wrong with him.

Yes, he is a prideful man.

Yes, I guess I am angry, although I had thought I was just resentful. Not all of the anger is toward H, though; a large portion of it is directed at myself for settling for less than I deserved over the years.

H wasn't blindsided by "marrying the first lucky guy who asks me". He knows very well that renewing our vows is very important to me. We have had straight out discussions about it at least 3 times. He just plain does not want to remarry me. In fact, he knows that the reason I will not celebrate our anniversary is because I no longer consider that he is truly my husband and that he stopped being my husband the minute he even kissed another woman (which I suspect was more than 28 years ago).

As for H not being a romantic type of guy, well, he used to be. When we were in a snag over planning our church wedding 32 years ago, I got frustrated and said, "Oh, let's just elope." H said, "Oh, no! I've always dreamed of having a church wedding!" And, up until he started screwing around, he continued to be a romantic type of guy. Even over the years, he has still had his romantic moments. The last time he surprised me was a couple of years ago, when he brought me a little bouquet he picked up at WalMart. I was thrilled, and told him so, but I guess I wasn't thrilled enough. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Oh, yeah, as for the dating thing...usually whenever we got to where we were going, there would be friends there that he had called to meet us. The one time I asked him out on a date to the movies, he stood me up. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

We took a 2 week camping trip up north last fall, and if I hadn't put my foot down, we would have hauled another couple with us (4 people for 2 weeks in a camper, ugh!). I think he was surprised that he had a good time with just me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

And, renewing our vows won't solve all our problems, I know, but it would go a long way toward making me believe that he is really in love with me again.

Some of the other issues I have is that, while he now makes the effort to fulfill my sexual needs, I would like him to "seduce" me sometimes, instead of just waiting for me to get into bed and reaching for me. Someone else on MB put it this way: "I don't want to just feel available; I want to feel desired." And, yes, I have told him very plainly that I want him to seduce me. There are times when I am up late and he's asleep when I go to bed. He'll say, "You should have woke me up last night." I usually reply, "It would be nice if you would come seduce me." For the record, I DO sometimes wake him up! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

Another issue is just outright rudeness. For example, if I'm talking to someone, he'll come up and just take over the whole conversation. Some friends and I were talking about different religious beliefs. No one was trying to force any beliefs on each other; we were just discussing them. H came out to where we were and interrupted, saying in an angry tone (everybody else thought he was angry, too), "Well, I don't want to talk about that. I want to talk about something else." I said, "Well, I'm enjoying our conversation, and we'll finish in a little while." "No, you'll finish now!" I fired back, "Well, there are plenty of other people here for you to talk to." He said, "Well, I may just leave!" I was royally PO'd by then, so I said, "Fine!" He went back into the house. After a while, we finished our conversation and I went to use the bathroom. As I was going back onto the deck, he was coming in and tried to kiss me. I was still PO'd, refused to kiss him and told him why. He got mad because I was PO'd and sat in front of the TV for the rest of the evening. We did have further discussion about it later, and I explained that I didn't like his being rude to me. He said, "Well, you were rude to me in front of our friends." I said, "Well, I'm sorry you feel that way, but I'm just tired of feeling disrepected when you cut me off in a conversation." The next morning, he did apologize, and I apologized for losing my temper. I think one of our male friends did ask him why it made him so mad for us to be discussing religion and told him that he was indeed rude to me. I've already decided that I'll be gentler the next time he interrupts or tries to take over a conversation I'm having wih someone, but I will no longer tolerate it.

I think that we have both just got into some really bad habits, and his bad habits have escalate because I've ALLOWED it. That's partly why I'm angry with myself....for allowing and tolerating his bad behavior because "that's what a good wife does (gag)." On the other hand, he has never allowed any behavior that he doesn't like from me and has never minded embarassing me in public at all! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I really think the only way he'll ever want to remarry me is if he thinks that I DON'T want to remarry him. Yeah, that's the way he is...can you say "control freak"? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />