</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>Hell 2Long ... I'll drive to the airport and pick her up !!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I'd love to have a little "girl talk" with your bride. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

.. I HATE LAX though ... please tell me it's Burbank <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I have a Honda van ... lots of luggage room ... want me to go? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ????????

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think this is a GREAT IDEA!!!! Man, that would get her to thinking! You kill me Pep, kill me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hope4future:
<strong>Don't get me wrong here...I agree about HER being the one to get the boot. The ONLY thing I'm unsure of in that situation is this. I think for a wayward spouse it hits home harder when the betrayed spouse leaves THEM. Because they're left and it's their own fault. Versus getting the boot...they get to feel resentment and anger towards the betrayed spouse (especially due to the embarassment of being kicked out) and put on a show for the kids about how they were kicked out etc... Just something to gnaw on.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with H4F; it's more of a reality shock when the BS leaves and the WS has to take over all of the duties and at least part of the cost of the "home". If I ever get to Plan B; I'll be the one to go. No question!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>CSue:

"Another thought is that with her type of A going on for so long and is such a HUGE EA; NO CONTACT means NO CONTACT.
I don't know how you could feel safe AT ALL as long as there is any form of contact. I see you writing pages and pages of boundaries regarding what type of contact is acceptable to you if you leave the door open for her at all to have any contact."

I don't know if I've posted this already, but here are my "requirements" that I'm incorporating into my draft plan B letter:

1) If you have not yet hired Rat Meat to work on these upcoming projects, DO NOT hire him. Get someone else to do that work, or do some other analysis.
2) If you HAVE already hired Rat Meat for these projects, FIRE HIM NOW.
3) If you have already hired him to work on these projects, and you CAN’T fire him, QUIT YOUR JOB. You aren’t happy with that company anyway, and you're often talking about leaving it.
4) DO NOT have Rat Meat involved in your project out of state, in any way, whatsoever.
5) We need to write a “No Contact” letter that we can both agree on and sign, to Rat Meat, instructing him to stay out of your life for the rest of your life. We should send this letter to Rat Meat, to Mrs. Meat, and to Rat Meat's boss. I want it clear to them that if this “proposal opportunity” he mentioned to you gets supported, that he is NOT to be involved with your project out of state in any way.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, no, no, 2L!
None of that. Something like; "As soon as you are willing to permanently separate from Rat-Meat, demonstrate it in a credible way, and are willing to follow measures to ensure total and permanent separation, I will be willing to discuss our future together."

I have occasionally lurked on your thread, and was happy to see the progress you seemed to be making. I'm really sorry to hear about the continued contact. How disappointing.

Anyway, Plan B sounds like a good idea. You've Plan A'd for six months, long enough to prove to your wife the kind of husband you can be. Any longer and it just becomes routine- almost leads the WS to think, "why give up the A when H knows about it and is being so nice to me anyway?"

Somewhere in this post I thought someone mentioned waiting to go into Plan B when you've lost most of your love for W. But isn't the point to go into Plan B before you've lost all your love for her? The idea of Plan B is to protect your love for her by interrupting the LB of the affair.(Harley says an affair is the worst LB you can do to your spouse).

Plan B protects your love but if the WS doesn't commit to recovery it allows the BS to detach and lose their love for WS. Be strong, I think Plan B is the only way your W will realize what she is in danger of losing. Don't let your love erode to the point that when you finally go into Plan B you have no interest in continuing with her and recovery becomes impossible because she has put you through too much.

And yes, she should be the one to leave. The separate bank account is a great idea. You could mention the option filing for divorce on the grounds of adultery- it can also be a good way of waking up WS. (not necessarily to be said confrontationally). oops maybe you live in a no-fault state?

Alot of these WS just don't seem to come out of the fog until it gets really extreme.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Alot of these WS just don't seem to come out of the fog until it gets really extreme. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just my $.02, and probably all it is worth....

From my observations on the boards here, I think most would agree that when the WS is female, the A is of a much more EA than PA for them. When the WS is male, then vice versa.

As I have somewhat noticed in my situation, even though I am sure headed for DV with the WW, she responded MORE to a Plan B than a good Plan A. I had been Plan A'ing even before I knew what it was. My work schedule had been rough, we had not had much time together, so when my job hours changed to better hours, I consciously made an effort on my own to try to "make up" what had been lacking in our M.

Little did I know that it was too late.

But...my point being....Since a WW's A is more of the "emotional" type, I think that there is more of a chance of "lifting the fog" when the WW is faced with an "emotional trauma" of sorts. Plan B does just that.

There is a GREATER loss of EN's when the BH goes into Plan B mode, than in Plan A.

Not to say that a good Plan A doesn't work on a WW, but if the A is of any length, the EA aspect has time to "grow", hence the need for more of an extreme response.

From my perspective, a good Plan A has more of an "optical" effect, and a good Plan B has more of an "emotional" effect.

So....for those of you who are familiar with these terms, you will see what I am saying here:

"Ya gotta use the proper bait for what you're fishin' for".......

hcii

SC:

"I agree with H4F; it's more of a reality shock when the BS leaves and the WS has to take over all of the duties and at least part of the cost of the "home". If I ever get to Plan B; I'll be the one to go. No question!"

Well, based on how things went after i picked up my W and her coworker, I think I'd have to leave now, if it comes to plan B. Why? Because my W would ignore the method and not leave anyway. She'd stay and we'd continue to be unsatisfied with our M.

SC:

"No, no, no, 2L!
None of that. Something like; "As soon as you are willing to permanently separate from Rat-Meat, demonstrate it in a credible way, and are willing to follow measures to ensure total and permanent separation, I will be willing to discuss our future together.""

Something like this would probably work better on my W than what I said above. She'd describe that as punishing her for her past mistakes. Never mind that the mistake of associating with OM isn't past yet. She views her attempts to get me to "come out" and give her more attention and cherish her (never mind ongoing or dormant A with OM at the time) as THE problem, and that she's not convinced that I can ever change that (never mind that I HAVE) or "stop punishing her" for the A.

I don't see any progress here, or any way I can help her MAKE progress, because she doesn't think she's got a problem.

espoir:

How are you?

"I have occasionally lurked on your thread, and was happy to see the progress you seemed to be making."

Thanks for that. I'm afraid that the progress is one-sided, though, or we're progressing in very different directions. I guess I'm just down again.

"I'm really sorry to hear about the continued contact. How disappointing. "

Yes it is. Worse, I couldn't talk about it. Didn't even bring it up (and certainly won't bring up the emails I found). My W could tell I was in a mood, like I said, but I didn't tell her what it was about, just "R stuff", without addressing anything in particular. She was tired from the flight and the long day up north. SHE did a bit of LBing, I did my level best to NOT contribute to it, except to defuse it and compliment her when I felt it was necessary. It's weird: I recognize that she's an attractive, intelligent, strong-willed woman, but I don't feel that much for her right now. Probably because of the moods we're both in.

"Anyway, Plan B sounds like a good idea. You've Plan A'd for six months, long enough to prove to your wife the kind of husband you can be."

And yet she berated me for being the opposite. Pointed out the recent LB arguments as if NOTHING I'd done up to that point mattered at all. I did get one compliment, though, about working on the house this past weekend. She enjoyed working with me on it. No pressures. It actually was relaxing, but I wouldn't mind some good, growey M discussions once and a while. Guess I won't get that so long as she has this anti-M attitude, which my IC worries may be permanent. My W complained about my remark during one of the arguments about "not wanting to live in a loveless M." She feels it's hopeless, even though that remark was partly made when I felt pretty desparate about the argument. I should rephrase that to say "I don't want to live in a pessimistic M." That's what we have, at best. It is very tiring. It's so easy to look at the good side of things, and yet my W won't.

"Any longer and it just becomes routine- almost leads the WS to think, "why give up the A when H knows about it and is being so nice to me anyway?"

I don't think she'd consciously say this, but I believe she's living it.

"Somewhere in this post I thought someone mentioned waiting to go into Plan B when you've lost most of your love for W. But isn't the point to go into Plan B before you've lost all your love for her?"

Yes it is. Sadly, my grade for my plan A is probably a D to my W. It may be that *I* can't live up to HER expectations, not the other way around, like she complains. And since I've got a D right now, and I'm losing most of my love for my W, I wouldn't even mind skipping B and going to D sometimes. I hope I come back up with the rollercoaster soon, because this pulls a good vacuum.

"The idea of Plan B is to protect your love for her by interrupting the LB of the affair.(Harley says an affair is the worst LB you can do to your spouse)."

LB of the BS, right? I don't think my W thinks her A as it stands now (which she doesn't think is an A at all) has anything to do with ME, and so shouldn't bother me either. Well, $hit. It sure did, and sure still does affect me in a very deliterious manner.

"Plan B protects your love but if the WS doesn't commit to recovery it allows the BS to detach and lose their love for WS. Be strong, I think Plan B is the only way your W will realize what she is in danger of losing."

I believe this, but I also believe that my W is so pig-headed that I will very likely lose all my remaining love for her during plan B even if I went to it NOW. And I'm really probably not quite ready to go there now. It's sad, but it may be that this M is one of those where the A went on for so long, and the EN that was probably most important to my W - admiration and collaboration of her work on a VERY focused area of study that I can't ever contribute at the same level as OM - that there may be no saving it after 12 years. It's going to take work, and I see no sign that my W thinks she needs to do the kind of work that it will take. Hence, I'll likely be long gone emotionally by the time either of us realizes what's been lost irrevocably.

"Don't let your love erode to the point that when you finally go into Plan B you have no interest in continuing with her and recovery becomes impossible because she has put you through too much."

May be there already. At least when I'm feeling down, I am starting to realize that I look at the possibility of a future without her with some longing now. AND, I look at her returns from trips like this with some trepidation. It's no fun, knowing what's going on in the scheme of things, and yet knowing that my W doesn't get it and very likely never will. She thinks that I'm the one that doesn't get it.

"And yes, she should be the one to leave. The separate bank account is a great idea. You could mention the option filing for divorce on the grounds of adultery- it can also be a good way of waking up WS. (not necessarily to be said confrontationally). oops maybe you live in a no-fault state?"

Yep, CA.

"Alot of these WS just don't seem to come out of the fog until it gets really extreme."

And THIS particular WS may never come out.

2L: Sadly, my grade for my plan A is probably a D to my W.

JR: Don't sell yourself short... I thought my WW thought this way about my Plan A also... but when I threatened to leave, she herself admitted that she suddenly went from only remembering "bad time" to only being able to remember "good times".

She said her big fear was once I left that she'd only be able to remember the bad times again... well... she's now starting to pursue me fairly agressively, so I'm doubting she's thinking about the bad times.

That's why my suggestion about a strong Plan A finish is important, I think... to crystalize, summarize and highlight what you've been trying to accomplish. How's the best way to do it? Smartly... sorry, I'm tired tonight and that's the best I can do for now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Sleep... it's a great thing... I was going to do some clean-up around here before WW comes over tomorrow, but I think I'll get up early and do it then instead... I'm beat... you should try to sleep a lot too...

hcii:

"From my observations on the boards here, I think most would agree that when the WS is female, the A is of a much more EA than PA for them. When the WS is male, then vice versa."

Yes, and it's very true with my W. Unfortunately, OM is a male (though not one that the rest of us would be proud of) and he can't seem to stop with the sexual inuendos to my W.

"As I have somewhat noticed in my situation, even though I am sure headed for DV with the WW, she responded MORE to a Plan B than a good Plan A. I had been Plan A'ing even before I knew what it was. My work schedule had been rough, we had not had much time together, so when my job hours changed to better hours, I consciously made an effort on my own to try to "make up" what had been lacking in our M.
Little did I know that it was too late."

And it may be for me, too. I sincerely hope that if I have to go to plan B soon, that it will have a positive effect that I can't anticipate from this viewpoint. I really just can't see it now.

"But...my point being....Since a WW's A is more of the "emotional" type, I think that there is more of a chance of "lifting the fog" when the WW is faced with an "emotional trauma" of sorts. Plan B does just that."

This is a good point. And similar to my observation to my IC today that our best closeness and SF lately has ALWAYS followed a serious discussion or even an argument with major LBs. AND many of them where I've stated my limits in "no uncertain terms" whatever that is. THEN, after about a day or two, we go back to the status quo and my rollercoaster takes another rapid nose dive. Every damned time! My IC thought that was a very telling observation, offering some hope for an effective plan B. I hope so.

"There is a GREATER loss of EN's when the BH goes into Plan B mode, than in Plan A.
Not to say that a good Plan A doesn't work on a WW, but if the A is of any length, the EA aspect has time to "grow", hence the need for more of an extreme response."

This may be very true, and may be why it's so hard for me to see a solution at this point in time. We have so many emotional traumas that have nothing to do with our M right now, but impact it (and impact any efforts I might make to work on our M unilaterally).

"From my perspective, a good Plan A has more of an "optical" effect, and a good Plan B has more of an "emotional" effect."

Interesting observation.

Well, folks, I've still only had one hour of sleep since night before last, and I'm still not sure I can go to sleep now. I should try... ...after checking for more intersting posts.

Boy, this thread almost rivaled one of SC's threads in only a 24-hr period! I wish I could do that with a much more upbeat subject!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Double post

<small>[ July 16, 2002, 11:39 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

Triple post!

Can't remember doing THAT before!

<small>[ July 16, 2002, 11:40 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

Wow, 2nd double post!

<small>[ July 16, 2002, 11:41 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

2long,

Someone else said that when the BS leaves, the WS wakes up. It can happen, even if only a little...

My stbx and I were overseas when we split up. He left the family home and had been gone 10 weeks, when I realised that I could not stay in a country where I knew no-one while my stbx was parading his OW in front of my kids. So I came back to Australia, with the children.

During one of our calls early in the piece, he asked me how it was, and I told him it was hard. He said "Well YOU were the ONE to LEAVE!!!" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Um, did I make up the fact that he had left first??? No, but he temporarily forgot in his WS brand of anguish. He didn't like it because it showed my independence, and now I find he is still trying to control me...go figure.

The whole point is that if you do leave, it will certainly get some reaction; what that reaction will be is unpredictable. However, I would not do it if I were you because:

1. Leaving the family home could cost you the house later on.

2. It could cost you custody time with the kids.

3. It will certainly cost MONEY.

4. At this point, I can see it as a kind of punishment to her...you are angry and want to get away...maybe for a short break instead?

5. It leaves the door open for OM.

6. She could get nasty with a whole lot of things.

7. If you go, leaving possessions behind, it is very difficult to get them back.

8. She can blame YOU for the demise of the marriage, at least to people who do not know the full story.

Not easy, I know. I do not know if I could have come back home to Australia had my husband not left me firstsomaybe I am not the one to give advice. But just think very carefully about it, okay?

Nina Too:

I will think about it, long and hard. I don't want to do anything wrong, and right now it's hard to tell what would work and what wouldn't.

I could always just try to be loving, figure that a lifelong plan A is my best bet. But that doesn't sound like a particularly rewarding M to me.

ol' 2long is a'gonna go stare at his eyelids now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>ol' 2long is a'gonna go stare at his eyelids now.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe stare at those psycodelic shoes!!!

Well I have not read this novel of a post in detail but here's my 2 cents (with no tax!!) Remember that plan B is about detaching an protecting 2Long's love. In this mode, there is no more groveling, doormat performance. You will stretch your wings and find out there is a life out there. You will look in the mirror and not see a betrayed spouse but a good person who has a lot to give and will learn to appreciate what he/she receives.

What the WS will see is a piece of her life leaving her. No longer will you be meeting her ENs. Women tend to take their man to task when this happens so a bit of a tantrum period will exist for a while. Know that it is temporary (could be months).

Nonetheless, it will bring relief of the current stress you are carrying. You may not even be aware of how much you are carrying but soon your body will tell on you. Bags under your eyes, shortened temper, disoriented babble, despair and I don't care will start to set in and you still won't be able to sleep.

In plan B your body is given some relief and learns to rest. Of course you may still have anxiety attacks, nightmares and some sleepless nights. Posting here helps. Helping others helps. Those bad things will subside, they too are temporary.

But you will set your boundaries and enforce them. You may find that you want some of those boundaries to stay even if she does come back.

For me, I also keep plan B in my back pocket. Posting here helps me.

Hope this helps you.

take care,
L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ...sad, but it may be that this M is one of those where the A went on for so long, and the EN that was probably most important to my W - admiration and collaboration of her work on a VERY focused area of study that I can't ever contribute at the same level as OM - that there may be no saving it after 12 years. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Been there, found it not to be true (though my wife's affair w/co-worker was "only" three years). The emotional warm fuzzies one receives from admiration is not dependent on what one is admired for. My wife actually said in the MC's office that I could not admire her for what she wanted to be admired for, which contributed to her vulnerability to the affair - her competence at work. I countered that the love one feels from genuinely expressed admiration is not dependent on what exactly is admired. Essentially, that any admiration will do. While that is not completely true - admiration for things that we think are important is more effective at depositing love units in the Love Bank than admiration of things we think are unimportant, it IS true that all the "Admiration" deposits go into the "Admiration" account in the bank. So any admiration will be effective, though the number of love units deposited may vary with the type of admiration. Further experience has taught us that what I contended was true. The other aspect of collaboration/admiration was RC - my wife's highest EN. Collaboration at work was fulfilling her RC need. Again, we did not have to WORK together to fulfill this need for her, even though doing so might deposit more love units than the things we do, which include lots of outdoor and exercise activities, Karaoke, adventurous dinners, and walks. They may not be the RC she likes best, but they do do make deposits in her RC account, which is what she needs.

I also thought long and hard about separating (before I knew about the affair), and decided that if I did, I would leave, because I wanted her to understand how much I did for her (I was the at-home parent while we lived in a foreign country, and we had three kids, one in pre-school). While this may have worked, I think now that kicking her out may have been just as effective. Home was a refuge for her, as was her relationships with our children. Depriving her of that may have been more of a shock to her system than loading all the extra duties of domestic support upon her. Hard call, but your C knows more about your particular situation than I do, so maybe you should follow their advice. You might want to check with a lawyer about the legal ramifications of kicking her out. If she were to come home to changed locks and her belongings in suitcases on the lawn, what could she do??
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And similar to my observation to my IC today that our best closeness and SF lately has ALWAYS followed a serious discussion or even an argument with major LBs. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Been there, done that, though we were genuinely in recovery right from D-Day (she confessed out of the blue, because she wanted to stop - guilt and the Holy Spirit). I think it is an emotional intensity issue. Even bad emotions are better than no emotions, in some ways. I think there was some "wanting to make it up to me" when I expressed my pain, as well. We had to be careful not to let it get out of hand. We did not want that to become the new pattern for our sexual relationship.

It is possible things are not quite as bad as you think right now. It was an early pattern in our recovery. Do you think you might actually be in recovery, and just not able to see it right at the moment?

2long,
WOW! this thread went wild while I was at the beach!
Reading through all 7 pages of posts, I see the "typical" Plan A or time to turn to Plan B debate. It's a tough call. I don't think I really have a lot new to add to all of this, but as many times as I've been angry about new discoveries, and thereby done something to punish my WW for it, I somehow always (eventually) turn back to a Plan A.
As you know, I am presently preparing my move back to MN. Butat the same time, I also find myself trying to be very supportive and positive towards my W while we are together. Maybe it is because I really love her, maybe it is I also feel the hardship she is going through, maybe it is just to hold to a positve environment around the kids; I don't know...
The advice you have given me I feel shows me that you have more of a fight in you for your M. Don't let this bump in the road direct you down the wrong path.

Sweden

Hi 2long, I was away all day yesterday and I read this from beginning to end just now.

I wish I had some great words of wisdom for you but I can only say how sorry I am for your pain. You got some great advice here. I hope things work out for the best. Just wanted to let you know I'm thinking about you and praying for you and your family.