Thought I'd comment and validate some of espoir's stuff...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by espoir:
<strong>Hi 2Long

Hmm- I think it is common for the WS not to acknowledge/deny the changes seen in Plan A. For your wife, it can almost be a way of justifying the continued contact. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Entirely correct. My W has told Steve that I am doing very well, BUT that she still blames ME in large part for the A...you can't win this game by what they SAY. You win by the overall end result.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>But the most important thing is not the grade your WW gives your Plan A. (Yes I know Steve Harley sometimes says otherwise-but he also says Plan A may not be successful because the WS won't let you fill their EN's- even if you're doing a great attempt- they want it from the affair partner). The important thing is the grade you would give your Plan A. I think if you believe that you have truly done your best, if you know you have attempted to meet your wife's EN's to the best of your ability, if you have set goals for creating a wonderful marriage, if you have reiterated your commitment to your WW despite her destructive actions re the A- well, what more can you do? She has to be on board with healing the marriage, willing to follow a recovery plan. Plan A and Plan B are what is supposed to set the stage for that to happen- but it doesn't always work. Still, you have the rest of your life to live, and if your wife doesn't want to create a close & loving M with you- there is I am sure a woman out there who would. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very good points.

Your W might SOMEDAY acknowledge the success or quality of your Plan A; she'll never do it at this stage of the game. That IS NOT a goal for now, don't make it a measure of your success.

It's very true that WS will not ALLOW you to fulfill their EN's while the A is active, or before they are on board. Very true; if you look at my W's ENQ, you'll see I have been fulfilling 3 of her top 5 ENs all along, and the other two pretty well since my Plan A got up to speed. Does she feel this is good? NO. Has this led her to end the A? NO. Will this bring us to recovery? NO. She will not let me do it, even if I AM doing it. She cannot acknowledge right now, that I can replace what she's getting from the OM, or she's been less than truthful about her EN's on purpose so that even if I try to do it, I can't.

And about the WS being on board; totally true. There is little rebuilding that can really take place until both spouses are on board. Your Plan A goes only so far without her total honesty and feedback about it in fulfilling EN's and avoiding LBs, the quality of your Plan A will never reach its potential until you are getting a reciprocal effort coming your way from her, (Steve, BTW, acknowledges that no BS can do his very best in this area while the A is active and/or the WS is not on board), and there are many things that can ONLY happen when both spouses are working together towards a common purpose, ie, POJA about financial matters.

And finally, if all efforts fail, you will indeed find a spouse willing to create an intimate, honest R with you. True; even if it's the last resort.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Where are you at in your M? Does your wife show any remorse for the A? Yes, I know she is in denial re continued contact with Rat Meat. Does she show concern for your feelings, your pain? Is she affectionate? Does she say I love you? (oops, just saw in your post that she doesn't? Even when you say it to her? No ILY back?)Does she talk about the future together? Does she express that she made the right decision to stay? Does she express any positive feelings about you as a person? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Interestingly enough, MY W does most of these excluding perhaps the remorse and my feelings part.

And it's SO confusing and conflicting! On the one hand she talks of the future, plans, says she loves me, etc. and the next minute, she's planning a trip to see the OM....weird! No wonder it's a roller-coaster!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I think you have to give B a chance. If your wife commits to recovery she will be able to win your love back. As long as you haven't let her irrevocably destroy your love. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree. It'd be a waste of a very good Plan A and an enormous expenditure of emotional energy to have Plan A'd for so long only to not go to Plan B and jump to D. Makes no sense. Persih the thought!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>The A is the worst lovebuster the WS can do to the BS. So when I see BSs freaking over possibly lovebusting their WS by standing up for themselves I laugh. I don't think Plan A means being a doormat. And I don't think Plan A is meant to go on for too long or it becomes enabling to the WS.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is an interesting observation. I think we BSs have a hard time differentiating boundaries and limits and LBs. Also, we easily allow the WSs to manipulate our efforts and portray them as LBs when they are really just logical boundaries. Take a look at the HUGE LB my W made out my snooping/confrontations to be; she not only managed to make them stop, but has Steve partially convinced she DOES have a REAL problem with privacy! At worse, she's bought time, at best she avoids having to face and admit the lies.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> I think Harley really pairs Plan A and B because often as he says Plan A is not enough to convince and help the WS to break the addiction. I think your W is pretty severely addicted because this thing has been going on for 12 years. That said, I think amhurt and some others do make some points for not going into Plan B. It's tricky and really depends on you. I think it is important to consider the whole picture- what's happening between OMW's H and your W, as well as what is happening between you and W.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Quite true, although I would put it more as "giving the A the TIME it needs to end" rather than "to convince and help the WS to break the addiction" but in the end, it's the same thing.

And the long duration of your W's A will have an impact on this interms of time and effort. Witness ashirley's extreme difficulty with her addiction, and she IS on board with all the principles!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I don't know- the no contact might be a relief. It seems like the stuff that hurts most is the continued contact and continued revealing of affair evidence, coupled with the lack of remorse and lack of commitment to put alot of effort into healing.As well as the lack of consideration for your feelings of pain. Yes you would have to psych yourself up and be strong.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Indeed. It will not be easy, but preparation will help. And the knowledge that you are doing what is right for your M, giving it every possible chance, will also help.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But remember, your wife is still in the A. If she is receiving secret e-mails from an affair partner and that person is making suggestive comments- well, even if there is nothing really active right now there is still an inappropriate relationship going on. And don't be so afraid re her reaction regarding your snooping. Her life should be an open book to you. Her outside relationships should be open to you as well. (And vice versa). That is the gold standard for a marriage- don't let her babble as Orchid would say convince you otherwise. The people who babble on about their right to privacy are usually the ones with something to hide.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SO true! Somehow we are unable to determine when the "right" time for setting these types of boundaries is, and our WS's past reactions make us scared to do it, but we must. At the right time, we really must. I have begun this process, but I will grant you that I have not gone far enough, especially in the "open book" area...Steve says she needs more time with this...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>How about saying to W-
1) why did you feel hysterical when I referenced your hotmail account? What's going on?
2) how would you feel about closing your hotmail account? It's a trigger for me because I know you used it for your communications when you were having the affair. (My H literally threw away the cell phone he had used to call OW with- nothing wrong with it and he replaced it with the same model- but he felt the phone was tainted and a bad memory.)
3) Let's open a new hotmail account for our own private love communications.
4) Yes OM can communicate with your W on her work computer but people tend to be more restricted on what they can e-mail in the worklace since the e-mail can be monitored by the employer. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2L; these are perfectly reasonable requests. Perhaps not all at once, perhaps worded differently, perhaps when you feel more prepared to back up the breaking of these boundaries, but all of these are perfectly logical in you circumstances.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>The other thing is- plenty of people are passionate about their work and have coworkers with whom they share an interest in a narrow and specific topic. It doesn't mean they fall in love with these people. There is alot more to life. I assume perhaps wrongly that your wife has other interests that you can share in. You have kids together, a home together, a life together.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SO true! And almost impossible to refute.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Anyway G2G, but I do hope your wife "gets it" soon. But she will probably need Plan B don't you think?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Probably she will need Plan B. Maybe soon.

<small>[ July 18, 2002, 12:03 AM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

2Long,

"So pats on the back all around, hugs and kisses (2L you need to shave, man!) and all that stuff!"
I ain't shavin' for you, SC!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
SC:
Aw, I thought maybe....Hey, R U sure your W likes that beard?

Well at least we know you are not having an EA with Cadet!!! LOL!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Let me share with you why I this caught my eye!! My H sported a mustache of which he was enormously proud of for about 20 years. Groomed since highschool. He is a younger whippersnapper. He had always said that he would not shave off his mustache for anyone but his W. I had asked and he said no. Hm..... but I didn't really mean it because I knew he liked it too much. Something about letting someone keep what you don't really like because they really do.

Anyway, the A thingy was soooo strong that the WS shaved his mustache because the OW said she didn't like kissing him with it. Talk about a trigger.!!! His whole face is now a trigger. YUCK!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

While he looks ok without it, it is a major trigger for me. Should I offer plastic surgery? Maybe I can change him to look like Brad Pitt? He is closer to Tom Cruise age..... oh well.

Now back to your delimea, I think you need to move forward. Decide whether you want or should set boundaries and then do so. Plan as if you need to move on with your life. Let her see that you will not browbeat yourself just to get a few attention crumbs from her. Do not show yourself settling for crumbs because if and when you do, that is ALL you will get.

I was told that by the Ws. The one piece of truth in that fog. Once I heard that a lightbulb went off. No more being extra nice. Civil yes, nice no. Quit meeting ENs and poof, I was in plan B.

For me it took having a nice dream about G Clooney and T Cruise. Now I am more inclined to G Clooney age wise but hear he is a bit of a player so now I like Mel Gibson better. You will have to find your point, place or person who makes you feel better but not cause you an EA. Once you know you are not the undesirable character the WS has made you feel like, then you will gain the strength to move on. Very important in any recovery.

Just because you are moving on, you don't want to stereo type yourself and predict yourself into a corner of no return. Remember even though you may be in plan B, you still don't have control over how the WS acts.

Some return to their spousal position, others stay stupid. Either way the BS still moves forward.

Stop focusing on her actions and plan your future.

L.

That talk with my W about DV, with no headway toward closeness no matter how sensitive I tried to show her I can be, made me realize that I probably am a lot closer to being ready to go to plan B than I give myself credit for. And I'm probably at a position in our M stalemate that I perhaps SHOULD go to plan B after all. I don't know for certain, because, thankfully or otherwise, I've never been in this position before in my life. But I'm going to work on that plan B letter and run it by everyone and see what you think.

This is all so weird. Something of a relief getting what little we did get out on the table. So much is still hidden that it is obvious that my W is still very much in denial (no remorse, really), so withdrawal (if it ever comes) and definitely recovery, are far, far beyond the horizon (and this is a big planet and the horizon is a long ways off).

Damn. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I forgot:

I picked up a copy of "Divorce Remedy" on my way home from work. Told my W about it when she got home. At least she didn't ridicule me for it like when I bought HNHN and read her the introduction.

On the 4th page of DR's Intro, this statement hit me hard:
"I'm convinced that, unless you are in an extremely dysfunctional relationship - one in which there is physical abuse, chronic substance abuse, or chronic infidelity, for example - and your spouse isn't willing to change, you are better off solving your problems than getting out."

Based on that statement, and the conversation with my W about her privacy, OMW's H, my inconsiderate sexual advances, my inability to listen to her, and her anti-M remarks, I think I'm better off getting out. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<small>[ July 18, 2002, 12:09 AM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

OK, 2L; I'm going to beat you up this time...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
SC: "Again, this is NOT about your W or if she'll give you points; It's about YOU. It's about you feeling better and more secure about yourself and what you've done, and are doing."

<strong>2L: I know this. I really do. It's just falling on completely deaf ears right now. Actually, they're not deaf, they're determined to tear me down.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, listen to yourself; you're saying you know it's about you, yet you STILL say it's falling on deaf ears! Who cares what the owner of the ears thinks! This is about you and FOR you. It has NOTHING to do with your W. She shouldn't even be hearing it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I'll tell you something that's very embarrassing, but very telling at the same time (and I really do need help in this area). Last night when we went to bed, my W was exhausted, I was exhausted (remember, only 1hr of sleep the night before), but I was HORNY as all get out. REALLY GONE, I mean. Well, I knew she wasn't interested, but I tried to get her interested. She laughed about some things I said about SF that encouraged me somewhat. But then I tried to get her to participate. She wouldn't, so I "took care of business" alone. Tonight, she brought that up as very inconsiderate of me, and very hurtful to her. Okay, I can accept that it was wrong of me, but I didn't even "use" her. I'm very embarrassed talking about this here, but it's a HUGE issue for her, and she asked me to ask my IC why I can't leave her alone when she says she's not interested. It came across as a felonious act on my part. I feel terrible.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2L; I'd say all of us males have done this at one time or another, some on a regular basis. And I agree, it's not "right" or whatever you want to call it, in fact, Dr. Harley says it's an LB in his new edition of "Love Busters"; but honestly, I'm not too sure it is or should be, and I just don't see it as "inconsiderate" of her. I'll probably get flamed for this, but I'll tell you right away ladies; if you can explain to me WHY this might be "inconsiderate" or an "LB", I'm open to changing my mind about it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Of seeing that you can be all you have shown you can be under some of the most difficult and emotionally trying circumstances any human being could face."

<strong>Boy, don't I know it. But my efforts are completly unappreciated. Insulted, in fact.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">AGAIN, 2L; this is about you, and FOR you. Not to be shared with your W right now. She will, in due course, either see it or not. And even then, it will not matter; because it is about you, and for you. NOT for her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"And THAT, my friend, is what it's about. That man, who is doing all of this, who has shown such determination and endurance is a very worthy and valuable individual, whether your W sees it right now or not. Remember that!"

<strong>Thanks, SC. I'll do my best to keep my chin up. There's no reasonable alternative, after all. Despair is NOT a reasonable alternative. My family depends on me.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2L; Apart from the fact that this is about you and for you, it may even be an LB to point these things out to your W right now. She doesn't want to hear about the hard work you're putting into the R, she doesn't want to hear about the pain and the sacrifice, or about the good man you are and better man you've become...it just makes her feel guilty and drives her away. This is your private, personal victory; the effects it has or doesn't have on your wife will never be verbally acknowledged. They will be acknowledged by her eventual decision to drop the OM, choose you, and help you make the M even better, adding all of those elements than reauire the work of both partners.

In your professional endeavors the recognition and accolades of your peers and superiors is necessary, it's part of the political process. But in your personal growth it is primarily for your personal and private benefit. The recognition and accolades will come; but in a different form; in the form of love, intimacy, passion, a better relationship with your kids, their admiration, etc. and if done right, they won't even really know WHY they admire and love you so...they just know they do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>I forgot:

I picked up a copy of "Divorce Remedy" on my way home from work. Told my W about it when she got home. At least she didn't ridicule me for it like when I bought HNHN and read her the introduction.

On the 4th page of DR's Intro, this statement hit me hard:
"I'm convinced that, unless you are in an extremely dysfunctional relationship - one in which there is physical abuse, chronic substance abuse, or chronic infidelity, for example - and your spouse isn't willing to change, you are better off solving your problems than getting out."

Based on that statement, and the conversation with my W about her privacy, OMW's H, my inconsiderate sexual advances, my inability to listen to her, and her anti-M remarks, I think I'm better off getting out. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Relax, 2L; on the contrary, based on that statement, you're better off solving your problems!

Read on; it's a great book. You'll love the part about the mistakes ICs and MCs make about infidelity. The way they give up because they don't know how to fix it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>That talk with my W about DV, with no headway toward closeness no matter how sensitive I tried to show her I can be, made me realize that I probably am a lot closer to being ready to go to plan B than I give myself credit for. And I'm probably at a position in our M stalemate that I perhaps SHOULD go to plan B after all. I don't know for certain, because, thankfully or otherwise, I've never been in this position before in my life. But I'm going to work on that plan B letter and run it by everyone and see what you think.

This is all so weird. Something of a relief getting what little we did get out on the table. So much is still hidden that it is obvious that my W is still very much in denial (no remorse, really), so withdrawal (if it ever comes) and definitely recovery, are far, far beyond the horizon (and this is a big planet and the horizon is a long ways off).

Damn. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2L; Give it up, get over it; your W is NOT ready to hear these things yet. And she won't be for a while. If you measure your value as a person, or your success at Plan A, or your chances of recovery on what she says now, on how she reacts now, you will never succeed.

Give up getting her approval or her acceptance of these things. Do them for you, live them for you. Let her go. In due time she will come around. And it may take Plan B; but not because of what Plan B will make her see and feel; but because HER time will be right for that.

Can you tell my W's out of town? It's close to 1 AM here, and I'm still posting...

I expect tomorrow will be a very "interesting" day in the on-going saga with my darling WS...

I'll probably need all the support I can get!

Have a good night, my friend. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

2Long,

Have you read the thread on Redhat's sig line about the 5 stages of grieving? You are still very very much hurt but in time that hurt will turn to anger, eventually it will reach acceptance. Not of the A of where you are at and then you will be able to see, focus and work towards where you need and want to be.

So for now, concetrate on refocusing. It is hard to do at this stage of the game. It is very hard. But you must try. Look in the mirror and tell yourself that you are a worthy person, you are a valuable family member, you do deserve to be treated with love and respect.

In a strange way it is similar to the words that took the WS out the door. But in our case, it is true. We do not have to make it up. In order for the WS to have the A, they had to rob the family. In order for us to have our needs met we have to rob the A. We have to pull ourselves out of it. Pull the valueable pieces out of the A (the family and ourselves) and leave the pieces that have lost their value. Until the WS choose to increase their value, they become of less use to the family. In some cases, they become the burden that must be shed until they can prove their worth.

L.

Orchid:

"Well at least we know you are not having an EA with Cadet!!! LOL!!

Oh, I don't know. I've seen his picture on the MB Photo album, and I think he's kinda cute!

"While he looks ok without it, it is a major trigger for me."

I've shaved twice since we got M'd, actually, twice since I was 18. My W HATED me without my beard! Second time was about 11 years ago, and boy was she pi$$ed... ...hm, 11 years ago, about the time I bought that car that tweaked her, too...

"I think you need to move forward."

I agree. It's time.

"Decide whether you want or should set boundaries and then do so."

I calmly let her babble about her privacy and her OMW's H-only email account, and then I reiterated to her my most important boundary - absolutely NO OMW's H in her life for the rest of her life, or I'm out. For now, she picks "me out." I didn't flinch.

"Plan as if you need to move on with your life."

I promise!

"Let her see that you will not browbeat yourself just to get a few attention crumbs from her. Do not show yourself settling for crumbs because if and when you do, that is ALL you will get."

This is so true, and is EXACTLY what's been happening to me this week!

"I was told that by the Ws. The one piece of truth in that fog. Once I heard that a lightbulb went off."

And you've passed that light bulb to me, now. Dag Nab!! Thanks for waking me up again!

"No more being extra nice. Civil yes, nice no."

I think I can continue to be nice, because for the next week or two, probably, I'll still be in plan A. Incidentally, when I asked her if she'd like me to check into a hotel for a couple of days, she said "coworker is going out of town for a couple of weeks starting next Friday, and has offered to let me stay there." I said okay. This was probably meant as an insult to me, because this isn't the coworker that alegedly knows about the A. This is the one who has M problems of her own that WE have been trying to help with. I don't honestly think that this coworker thinks I'm a bad guy here, but I guess it doesn't matter anyway.

I think I may consider insisting on NC from her while she's gone. I'll have to wait and see.

"Quit meeting ENs and poof, I was in plan B."

It wouldn't take much for me to get there from here, either.

"For me it took having a nice dream about G Clooney and T Cruise. Now I am more inclined to G Clooney age wise but hear he is a bit of a player so now I like Mel Gibson better."

I used to be pretty partial to Kelly McGillis (she, and a younger Faye Dunnaway, have similar facial structure as my otherwise lovely W) around "Witness" and "Top Gun" timeframe, but there are many, many others!

"You will have to find your point, place or person who makes you feel better but not cause you an EA."

Believe me, I truly feel like I know better. Heck, I've known better all my life!!!

"Once you know you are not the undesirable character the WS has made you feel like, then you will gain the strength to move on. Very important in any recovery."

Not only that, I'll be able to perform at work. I've got a lot on my plate, exciting opportunites that I would have died for just a few years ago, and at the moment, I just can't get enthused. This has been too draining. I plan to mention that in my plan B letter.

"Just because you are moving on, you don't want to stereo type yourself and predict yourself into a corner of no return. Remember even though you may be in plan B, you still don't have control over how the WS acts.
Some return to their spousal position, others stay stupid. Either way the BS still moves forward."

This is very encouraging. Very.

"Stop focusing on her actions and plan your future."

I shall!!

<small>[ July 18, 2002, 12:53 AM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

SC:

"OK, listen to yourself; you're saying you know it's about you, yet you STILL say it's falling on deaf ears! Who cares what the owner of the ears thinks! This is about you and FOR you. It has NOTHING to do with your W. She shouldn't even be hearing it."

h'DOING!!! HA!!! You are absolutely right. I guess I really WAS tired when SS made that observation, what was that, 6 hours ago!? I'm about to cave, I think.

Except I'm learning so much! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

SC:

"2L; I'd say all of us males have done this at one time or another, some on a regular basis. And I agree, it's not "right" or whatever you want to call it, in fact, Dr. Harley says it's an LB in his new edition of "Love Busters"; but honestly, I'm not too sure it is or should be, and I just don't see it as "inconsiderate" of her. I'll probably get flamed for this, but I'll tell you right away ladies; if you can explain to me WHY this might be "inconsiderate" or an "LB", I'm open to changing my mind about it."

Thanks for your support on this, SC. I am interested in what the chick ladies think, too. And I realize, probably from this example most of all, that my W simply can't be reasoned with about M or As at this time.

"AGAIN, 2L; this is about you, and FOR you. Not to be shared with your W right now. She will, in due course, either see it or not. And even then, it will not matter; because it is about you, and for you. NOT for her.

2L; Apart from the fact that this is about you and for you, it may even be an LB to point these things out to your W right now. She doesn't want to hear about the hard work you're putting into the R, she doesn't want to hear about the pain and the sacrifice, or about the good man you are and better man you've become...it just makes her feel guilty and drives her away. This is your private, personal victory; the effects it has or doesn't have on your wife will never be verbally acknowledged. They will be acknowledged by her eventual decision to drop the OM, choose you, and help you make the M even better, adding all of those elements than reauire the work of both partners."

All this makes me feel a bit like that stable hand, again. I wonder if I should keep the plan A up at least until I get THIS fact. Like, how is it that I can give advice to others about how plan A is about the BS, and then get my own bowels in an uproar over every little hurtful thing my WW says to me? Beat me up some more, SC. Make me write bad checks!!

"The recognition and accolades will come; but in a different form; in the form of love, intimacy, passion, a better relationship with your kids, their admiration, etc. and if done right, they won't even really know WHY they admire and love you so...they just know they do."

Good stuff, SC. Damn good stuff. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

SC:

"Relax, 2L; on the contrary, based on that statement, you're better off solving your problems!"

Okay, based on the beating you've just given me, and the advice I've been getting all along about plan B from everyone, I have to remember that my situation is not unique, it's just closeby, and so while it may look hopeless at this point, there probably is reason to remain optimistic.

"Read on; it's a great book. You'll love the part about the mistakes ICs and MCs make about infidelity. The way they give up because they don't know how to fix it."

NOW I WANT TO STAY UP READING! That is definitely something I want to check out more closely.

Orchid:

Thanks for your latest. I'm really feeling like I need to go stare at my eyelids for a while, so I'll check back in tomorrow.

2L: DON'T ARGUE!!!!! Learning to do conflict well involves finding win/win solutions...er I mean POJA... to dis-agreements. No arguing involved. Tough to do when one party does not participate, I know. An argument also takes two, though.

Use "I feel" statements - feelings can be judged and ridiculed, but not really argued with. Ask her how she feels. Typical communication stuff.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All this makes me feel a bit like that stable hand, again. I wonder if I should keep the plan A up at least until I get THIS fact. Like, how is it that I can give advice to others about how plan A is about the BS, and then get my own bowels in an uproar over every little hurtful thing my WW says to me? Beat me up some more, SC. Make me write bad checks!!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You MUST keep up you very best Plan A behavior ALL the time. Up until the very moment you hand your W the Plan B letter and walk. The last thing she needs to remember of you before you walk MUST be your very best, most loving and caring persona. This is a MUST!

We all do exactly the same thing; we understand the concepts and rules, we know the right and wrong thing to do, we can tell others, but when it comes to US we are singularly unable to apply the same logic. Our feelings get in the way of the logic we know is there.

I've often said that I'll feel like I've graduated to "old-timer" status at MB when I am consistently able to do that!

<small>[ July 18, 2002, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

john39:

"2L: DON'T ARGUE!!!!! Learning to do conflict well involves finding win/win solutions...er I mean POJA... to dis-agreements. No arguing involved. Tough to do when one party does not participate, I know. An argument also takes two, though.
Use "I feel" statements - feelings can be judged and ridiculed, but not really argued with. Ask her how she feels. Typical communication stuff."

I honestly believe that I've been making my best effort to do all the above. And actually, the DV convo came up in sequence to discussions about the house, and when to deal with issues about it, and how our problems impact the timing. It's all very complicated. And even the DV part of the convo was NOT an argument. Better than that. I'd steered us away from the argument about her Rat Meat email account to the house.

This is going to be difficult, but plan A for a while longer here is exactly what I have to do.

Difficult because:
1) espoir, I didn't answer your question about the ILYs. I've been telling her ILY at least once a day for a few weeks now, and I've meant it every single time. She last said ILY to me in March, I think. Last night, in the middle of the night, she was crying, and I was trying to console her with out saying anything. Well, I did say ILY to her at one point. Her response was "every time you say that, I don't hear ILY, I hear hurt, want, need, anger." I would add 'acceptance' to that, but didn't voice it.
2) This am, as she was getting ready to leave for work, I said "I'm sorry for last night." And she replied "I'm tired of hearing you say your sorry every morning." Well, I don't. We haven't had that many arguments, even lately. She's just focused on them and nothing else.

I needed to get that out, the negative stuff from our conversations of last night. There were some positive things said, too, that I'm trying to find a handle to foster them, but I'm not sure whether I should.

One was in regard to me telling her about Just Learning, and how he's been helpful to me. I'd mentioned him to her some time ago during a pleasant conversation about my efforts to learn about Rs from the books and the website. Last night, she asked about him, and asked whether he was posting to the forum for help or entertainment. I don't think she meant to be insulting, but I told her that he'd just found Rs fascinating (amazing for a hard scientist to take an interest in human interactions!) and has offered some good insights on the forum. She asked for a for instance, and I didn't have one on the top of my head. If your out there, JL, I would like to ask you whether it would be okay to forward something to her sometime. Nothing heavy, just ...whatever, I don't know. I'm showing my complete bumbleheaded knucklefootedness here. What I guess I'm trying to say is I have no idea whether something like that would be a good idea or not. I would like to find ways to open communication through the barrier without ticking her off. But maybe I shouldn't even try to communicate??

SC:

"We all do exactly the same thing; we understand the concepts and rules, we know the right and wrong thing to do, we can tell others, but when it comes to US we are singularly unable to apply the same logic. Our feelings get in the way of the logic we know is there. "

This is a bit comforting, actually. In the end, SC, once again I think of how every "revelation" I have about the state of our M shows me that her fog is deeper and thicker that I anticipated and had been working based on. In the scheme of things, I actually believe that your situation is more hopeful than mine. At least your DW is talking to SH. Mine has an infrequent IC at Kaiser that may be, for all I know, a complete idiot about As. She certainly hasn't appeared to be trying to address the A, just the problems in our M.

I know, and now my IC knows, that we can't progress until this A is shut down, and my W is far from being in a position to make that choice right now.

My only option is to try plan B, but I'm not even optimistic about that. SC, you said that I should have taken a positive attitude about our chances, based on that quote from Divorce Remedy:
"I'm convinced that, unless you are in an extremely dysfunctional relationship - one in which there is physical abuse, chronic substance abuse, or chronic infidelity, for example - and your spouse isn't willing to change, you are better off solving your problems than getting out."

My problem is that I truly believe that I've got a case of "chronic infidelity" and my W is definitely unwilling to change. The infidelity started about 19 or 20 years ago, when she had an EA with a coworker at a bike shop while I was away a lot in the San Joaquin Valley and working on my M.S. As that was winding down, she came to me and insisted that she would go out one night a week without me, either with female friends or even male friends, and stay out past midnight, and she didn't care how I felt about it. She actually did something like this on occasion from about that time up until her A with Rat Meat started. And just like the Rat Meat event, I knew that I couldn't get anywhere with her by making any demands, and I didn't know ANYTHING about saving my M, so I just "took it" and waited for her to make her own decisions (and I probably worked on being more loving toward her, though I may have done it poorly - I honestly can't really remember).

Whether she will ever be willing to change is very hard to tell, but this rigid insistence on her privacy and her Rat Meat-only email account, when she sees the anguish I feel, is very much remeniscent of her insistence on going out alone with male friends, and doesn't give me very much hope at all.

All this is not to wallow in my own self-pity. I am really trying to understand my shortcomings over the course of our M and her weaknesses. I have no intention of beating her (or really even myself) up about these things. But I really need to figure out if my IC has a point when he says that her anti-M remarks may be sincere, not just rationalization of her As. If they're sincere, where's the hope?

<small>[ July 18, 2002, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

SC:

I've probably read about 25 pages out of Divorce Remedy so far, plus skimmed the section on infidelity, and I think I'm liking what I'm reading thus far. Thanks for your recommendation!

While I was coming in to work (late), My W called me. Simple question about maps she's working on. Lifted my spirits and renewed my hope a little. I plan to send her a "thank you" email for that.

She cares, in some small way at least. I need for her to figure out how to get out of the mess she's gotten herself into.

All the dialog on this thread and all the LBs with her the past couple of days serve to remind me just how much education and practice I still need for MYSELF. But it's also shown me, once again and with feeling, that I'm a good person with a worth-while goal on the top of my mind - saving my M.

2Long,

You can send your W anything I have said to you if you think it will help. Also if she wants to email me she can do that as well. Personally, I am not sure I can think of anything really "
OUTSTANDING" that might impress her. But, I will let you and perhaps SC be the judge of that. There are over 5000 posts for you guys to choose from. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> So good luck.

2L, I think it is time you backed off and went back to work. It seems to me you are right she isn't ready to work on the marriage because she has to deal with her pride, her guilt (I think she has some, or perhaps on could classify it as insecurity), and feelings for OM. She is not ready to do the work you are ready to do. And you are far too tired to do the work you need to do.

Rest up, get plenty of sleep, and just let this ride for awhile, like about 2-3 weeks at least. Get the house addressed, have fun with S, and generally do what you like to do, and what you need to do. Let W alone. "Logic" and good intentions are not going to win the day here.

Hang in there.

JL