JL:

I agree. Her response to my email this am says a lot:

2long: "Your simple phone call about the maps this morning helped lift my spirits. Thank you."

W: "I'm so tired I can hardly even work."

2long: "I'll work on the maps this evening and let you sleep."

JL: My W hit the sack around 8pm. I went to bet around 11:30. We woke up around 1:30 and talked. Mostly tried to keep from LBing, but did some of that, too. She fell asleep again around 3:30. I about 4:45. Alarm went off at 5:45. So, with the exception of the possibility that she didn't sleep between 8 and 11:30, she would have gotten up to about 5-7 hrs of sleep. I only got about 3, but I won't point that out to her. I'm whacked out tired, so I intend to leave R and A talk out of all conversations for the forseeable future, to the best of my abilities.

So, JL, I'm doing what I can, but my W is too far away from really wanting to meet me anywhere near halfway right now.

I think I still need to back off entirely from any attempts at educating her, but if she does ask about what I read here I will consider sending her something at that time.

I am reconsidering contacting OMW, using a new hotmail account I've created (so she doesn't find me here). If I contact her, via classmates.com, I will simply identify myself and ask if she wants to talk. If she doesn't reply, I will delete the account and forget about it. If she does reply, but is off the deep end in any way, I'll delete the account and forget about it. But if she wants to talk and sounds reasonable, I would like to compare notes. I need to be able to verify when OM is likely to be trying to meet my W (likely at any time he could be in town, near her workplace, ostensibly visiting family).

Please tell me if, at this point with all that's transpired, I'm doing the WRONG thing with this idea. I am very definitely going to have to put together a plan B letter and logistics plan, or be up front with her and POJA a legal separation, if she won't budge on the privacy and continued contact issues. I suppose it is possible, with quiet, internal reflection, that I could get back to feeling good about continuing plan A for a while longer, to give her time to take rebuilding seriously, but I seriously doubt that will happen any time soon, without some incentive.

thanks,

A few quickies for ya...

First of all...it seems apparent to me that all this "sharing" you're trying to do with her is your panicked attempt to clue her in before you have to do something you just DO NOT want to do. Well...it AIN'T gonna work. (ask JR, he was in much the same position). Your efforts would be better placed on yourself and what you need to do. Seriously...she's in major defense mode...nothing you say or produce material wise (books, posts etc...) will make one iota of difference. Until she SEES you mean business...in her eyes you don't. She's making this your problem...when in fact it is majorly hers. Quit apologizing, quit "teaching"...just go about your business and get your things in order.

The other thing...you asked about how "inconciderate" ladies feel it is if their men go ahead and take care of themselves if we aren't in the mood. I wished my hubby would have done that years ago (now I wish he had the drive he had then!!!!). He used to get angry and mean when he hadn't "gotten it" in a while. I just hated sex...it was something I had to scratch off a list to keep hubby in a good mood.

Things are VERY different now..thank goodness. But if hubby were in the mood and I weren't (can't see THAT happening any time soon!!!) I wouldn't mind him taking care of himself at all...besides....it might GET me in the mood!

I think that there are many couples who have large differences in sex drives. Masturbation for the spouse with the higher sex drive is probably a RELIEF for the one with the lower one.

Just my opinion.

Take care of yourself. Get your things in order. Quit trying to force change...it won't work.

H4F:

"A few quickies for ya...
First of all...it seems apparent to me that all this "sharing" you're trying to do with her is your panicked attempt to clue her in before you have to do something you just DO NOT want to do. Well...it AIN'T gonna work. (ask JR, he was in much the same position). Your efforts would be better placed on yourself and what you need to do. Seriously...she's in major defense mode...nothing you say or produce material wise (books, posts etc...) will make one iota of difference. Until she SEES you mean business...in her eyes you don't. She's making this your problem...when in fact it is majorly hers. Quit apologizing, quit "teaching"...just go about your business and get your things in order."

Yep. This will be very hard, but plan B is what I have to do. I can't even imagine this weekend, since NOTHING I say will evoke anything but a biting remark. Like the "tired" comment.

"The other thing...you asked about how "inconciderate" ladies feel it is if their men go ahead and take care of themselves if we aren't in the mood. I wished my hubby would have done that years ago (now I wish he had the drive he had then!!!!). He used to get angry and mean when he hadn't "gotten it" in a while. I just hated sex...it was something I had to scratch off a list to keep hubby in a good mood."

She feels like I involved her because I didn't go elsewhere. She was VERY angry.

"Things are VERY different now..thank goodness. But if hubby were in the mood and I weren't (can't see THAT happening any time soon!!!) I wouldn't mind him taking care of himself at all...besides....it might GET me in the mood!"

Actually, I've gotten my W in the mood many times when she was less interested than that night. I thought I was being "considerate".

"I think that there are many couples who have large differences in sex drives. Masturbation for the spouse with the higher sex drive is probably a RELIEF for the one with the lower one."

Except this time.

"Take care of yourself. Get your things in order. Quit trying to force change...it won't work."

You're right. Going to draft a plan B letter now.

Look, folks:

I hate being impatient, but I also hate being ignorant, and there's clearly a lot going on that I'm ignorant of.

I really need some feedback on the idea of contacting OMW that I mentioned in the post to JL.

Please?

Ask yourself this...would contacting OMW be focusing on YOU or focusing on W?

2L,

I would strongly suggest that you do NOTHING until you have caught up on your sleep. That means a week if not 2 of sleep. No relationship talks, no plan b letters, no talks with OMW, NOTHING. THat is what this DR. recommends. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

If you going to play you need to play to win, and that means showing up in top form, with the mind ready, rested and flexible. This is especially true if you are dealing with emotional issues as you are. More importantly, you are missing important signs, for example your W's anger. It is not bad, it means she has not withdrawn from you. It can mean many more things and you are reacting to it, rather than using it.

2L, you are a bright guy, but you are not making good decisions right now. You are too tired and too wrapped around the axel to do that now. So give it time, rest up, you really do have plenty of time for these decisions. There is no race.

So calm down, rest up, get your work at the office sorted out, have fun with S, and be in bed early. 2L the right decisions will come to you, you don't have to go charging off here.

Hope something I said helps.

JL

Drop that idea (contacting OMW). You are not functioning normally ... get some sleep. Call in sick. Do you want me to write you a medical excuse? If it becomes impossible for you to stop obsessing with this problem long enough to take care of your needs... you should call your IC and ask for a prescription. (I'm tempted to write one for you myself !! But, that would not be ethical considering the circumstances).

I am SERIOUS 2Long ... you are over the top today... ask for help. When I was in a state similar to yours I went 3 whole days without sleep ... and I broke down in tears at work and eventually had to take 2 weeks off work to recover.

Go home. Sleep. If you can not do this ... email me at work and I'll try to do something for you.

Pepper <worried>

Hi 2long,

3 hours of sleep, man, I hope it gets better.

After watching you over the last few months, I want to make some observations. I am not going to use quotes as it would take to long to look everything up.

1. I think you are protecting your wife's feelings at your expense. You are trying so hard to not LB that you are letting her LB you to death.

2. You can't go on much longer. I think most if not all of us agree on this. I believe even you agree.

3. There are so many conflicting thoughts in your mind that are competing for space that it is almost impossible to decide a direction, timeline, change plans.

4. You get many good ideas and support here but also some conflicting advice that further clouds your vision.

So to sum it up, you are up in the air about what to do, with rapidly diminishing ability to continue as you are now. You are about to change plans but you don't know what to change to.

I don't believe you are in a good spot. JL has good advice for you. Don't worry about it for a few weeks. But I don't know if you will be able to do even that. It would give you a needed rest, let things slowly simmer and maybe you would be able to continue for a while. I suggest if you can do it to go ahead. I have an additional suggestion. I think you should bite the bullet and call Steve Harley. I think you should do 2 or 3 sessions - long enough to firm up a plan in your mind, and then do whatever it is. You have been two long in limbo. ( pun intended) You need something outside your self to confirm your course of action. I can't think of a better place to go for help.

I believe unless you get some relief you are going to come apart one day and go for the D. I would rather see you use some other options first.

My other suggestion is to find a way to tell wife your feelings. I think Steve can help you with this also. You seem to be keeping to much inside for even plan A. There are things she needs to be protected from, and you do need to protect her. BUT, she should not be protected from the consequences of her own actions. That's the only thing that can give her reason to change. So, if those things are LB's, so be it. Let her feel them.

I can't stand watching her destroy the love you have - please change things. Get off the merry-go-round, let the world stop spinning. It really is a pretty nice place we've all got here, I'd like you to see it again.

SS

PS, as far as contacting OMW, you are a doer, you need to feel that something is happening and contacting her fills that need in you. It would make it possible for you to plan A a little longer. Because the time you spend doing that would keep you busy for a time, I can't see bad in that. However, I don't think it is going to help you with your plan decision. It is kind of a delaying action. You still need to know where you are going to go. DON'T KEEP PUTTING THAT PART OFF. If you do contact her, don't let it delay your decision on what you are doing. Give your self a deadline.

When I say deadline, know what you are going to do, have letter written, legal work done, etc., etc. You can always say, " I don't need this plan, I won't do it." But if you don't have the plan, you are stuck. It gives you more options.

<small>[ July 18, 2002, 03:09 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

H4F:

I hate it when you ask questions like that!

I'd be focusing on W.

Understand (2long goes into corner, dons conical headgear).

OK, 2L; you've beat my thread...NOW GO HOME AND GO TO BED!!!!

Pepper:

I emailed you.

Took a short nap in my office. Phone rang, so I'll try again in a few.

Don't want to go home until 6 or so, so my W can take a nap herself before I show up.

2Long,

Strong feelings are not neccessarily the key on how to make our decisions. Especially when one's emotions are running on adrenaline and lack of sleep.

2Long, please step back and breathe a bit. U may not want to hear this but I know exactly where you are. The need to know is great but look past that need and ask yourself, once you get the info (regardless of what it is) then what?

Well I can tell you that in the fog, no one can predict anything other than the fact that you are hurt now and will be hurt later. Why not prepare yourself to talk to OM's W. Write what you want to say. I did that with OW's H. I have never to this day met him but my BIL was going to go meet him with me. I had a full speech in my head all prepared and practiced. Never used. U know what? I am still here and sane. U can be also.

The unpredicatable part is that we never know what the OP's spouse will do with our info. They may appreciate or hate us for what we are trying to do even though we come with best intentions. So if you are not strong enough to handle either reaction, then wait. ok?

L.

Orchid:

I'll wait. I don't want to talk to either the OM or the OMW, frankly. I just want them to live their own lives and leave mine alone.

It is frustrating not knowing what's going on, but knowing enough to know there is SOMETHING inappropriate going on, or planned.

In the scheme of things, none of my snooping is important, other than to put a damper on my overripe imagination and what THAT does to me. But since I'm resigning myself to something like plan B in the near future, none of that really matters anyway.

I do recognize that, since my W is at least arguing with me, and she is STILL here after 12 years of deceit, some part of her cares and wants to be with me, and I probably have more control of what happens than I give myself credit for. And since only *I* control how I am going to live, not my W or her decision to hang onto OM and her privacy, I know that I can make decisions for myself and my family, ultimately, and feel proud of the principles I stood up for in years to come.

Now will continue to be tough, but except for the shock effect of having to actually live through it, it really wasn't anything I didn't "know" could come at some point.

<small>[ July 18, 2002, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

Take your time, 2L; I know both of us wish for a "Plan" we can follow, and we've both had several of them, but in the end thay all fall apart or change or something.

Take the time to think, decide what you want, and the options available to reach that goal. Have several scenarios, be prepared to change them, and keep moving forward.

It is a very good idea to write a Plan B letter, run it by the forum, plan the logistics, and be ready to implement it if necessary, or when the right time comes. Believe me, I've done it, have it ready weeks and weeks ago, and it's a source of comfort or security to know it's there and ready to go. I have it down to the place I'll be staying, what I'll be taking, how things will work with the kids, money, the whole thing. I can be gone in less than 2 days and not skip a beat.

I haven't read this saga but the last page but JL as always has given good advice, so has Orchid; go back re read & chill.

Hope you got some sleep.

2L,
I hope you are currently catching up on your sleep and not reading my post here; you really need the sleep!

WOW are our situations similar! "Chronic Infidelity," WWs not wanting to change, bla, bla, bla... Could we be such bad mates?

I think you have gotten the picture here already, but don't contact the OMW. It was a two-edged sword in my situation. I told my W that I was going to do it, and I even spoke to the OM on the phone about it 2x. It served the purpose of ending the (virtual) EA between (I think), but it also pi$$ed my WW off deeply! The snooping in conjunction with the threat of exposing the A was enough to really drive her to the brink, and she is still there somewhere. Doing this will only bury you deeper here, but you know this already.

If the Plan B letter serves the purpose of clarifying the situation for you better, then write it! If it only enforces your current anger towards your S, than skip it and go back to bed. I can sense that you are very angry because of what YOU discovered while YOU were snooping, but as you stated, only view it as a reality check. Otherwise, stop the snooping until you can handle the possible negative consequences.

Now, get back into that Plan A, and as Pepper stated, have some fun with it!

Sweden

All:

I got almost 9 hours of sleep last night, and I feel great.

Well, I realized, even last night before hitting the sack, that I CAN DO THIS!

What happened: W got home after I did, with me already working on her maps. Well, turns out, from her description, that the folder she found at work probably was the one with the latest maps in it. No biggie, I'd put everything she needed on the maps and had been printing them out when she got home. I just said I'd go ahead and finish, and at worst, she'd have two sets when she went back on Monday (yeah, she gets more sleep, I get to work!). She said I didn't need to bother, and thank you and all that, which will eventually devolve into "you never do enough for me" anyway, assuming we have another one of those "R discussions" again soon. I don't plan to initiate any.

Last night, before I finished printing, I went into the bedroom to get my copy of "Divorce Remedy" to read while I queued files to the printer. When I went into the room, my W said "could you please just hold my hand for a while?" I said "of course" and held her hand and listened to her sob for about 15 minutes. I didn't say anything, at least no heavy $hit. At some point, she made a few comments about being tired, and she's sorry about the maps, and stuff, then she gradually changed to complaints about things going on at work. No talk of OM, thankfully, and I didn't jump in. Anyway, it developed to the point that the need for my hand-holding was gone, and I excused myself and went back to printing. Forgot the book, though! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

How do I feel now that I'm rested? I'm still very angry about the "privacy" and "Rat Meat account" issues. They're enough on their own to make me want to go to plan B soon. I really just don't know whether it will be easy enough to separate in our situation (and with all kinds of serious work responsibilities coming up for me starting in a couple of weeks). I just won't have the time to set something up that's clear cut and no risk to me (financially, I think). My IC is out of town next week, and my next appointment with him is on the 2nd of August. My last appointment with my IC at work is on the 1st.

I noticed that Michelle W.-D. talks about giving an Ultimatum to end an A, in Divorce Remedy. I skimmed that section, but have only read about 30 pages of the book so far, and have a lot to go. Anybody try anything along those lines instead of plan B? How different is something like that from plan B? I guess I'm trying to picture a situation where I give her the plan B letter and move to some temporary housing - a hotel or apartment - but I really don't want to take ANY risk WHATSOEVER that I might lose the house or custody of my son. I think my W would be willing to move out herself (during the DV convo, she said she didn't care about the house, that I could have everything, but I told her that was silly and she'd get 50%). Problem is that she WOULD NOT be in agreement on going to plan B anyway, and so if I delivered the letter to her and asked her to leave, she wouldn't be prepared to do so anyway. I would think that this would defuse some of the initial effectiveness of a plan B.

Any thoughts?

2long,

Been away for a few days and I've finally caught up on this thread!!

I am impressed with how well you are doing. You were so smart in snooping; and even smarter in not revealing your snooping to WW.

I am relieved that you have not acted on the information you have gathered. I don't see anything to gain by "reacting" to the information. Looking at this long term, I think you'll be pleased with how you've managed this "sitch", when you're finally looking back reflecting on this time in your life.

I think that you're still in the "gathering information" mode before you can decide what to do. You are after all, taking into consideration the impact of your actions on your family and extended family; and yes the impact on you and your WW. With so much at stake, how could you not proceed mindfully.

I don't have anything to add to the great, wise and witty ones that come before me; just to say "You're handling this beautifully!" CSue

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> <strong>I noticed that Michelle W.-D. talks about giving an Ultimatum to end an A, in Divorce Remedy. I skimmed that section, but have only read about 30 pages of the book so far, and have a lot to go. Anybody try anything along those lines instead of plan B? How different is something like that from plan B? I guess I'm trying to picture a situation where I give her the plan B letter and move to some temporary housing - a hotel or apartment - but I really don't want to take ANY risk WHATSOEVER that I might lose the house or custody of my son. I think my W would be willing to move out herself (during the DV convo, she said she didn't care about the house, that I could have everything, but I told her that was silly and she'd get 50%). Problem is that she WOULD NOT be in agreement on going to plan B anyway, and so if I delivered the letter to her and asked her to leave, she wouldn't be prepared to do so anyway. I would think that this would defuse some of the initial effectiveness of a plan B.
</strong> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There are some differences, but in essence both processes are very similar. Read on, there's much more and it'll become clear as you do.

With a few minor differences, Harley and Weiner-Davis describe very similar processes, with Harley being more detailed and more pont-by-point than Weiner-Davis. Still, VERY valuable stuff in Weiner-Davis' books. I have used elements of both in a curious mix.

CSue:

I wish I could feel like I was handling things beautifully. I don't know, maybe I really am. Maybe the way I've described things on this thread makes it sound more precarious than it really is.

In one very important way, it's clearly not an exaggeration. When I saw my IC on Tuesday for a cancellation he had, he pretty much made me realize that I didn't have enough information at that point to go to plan B or to confront my W. But that evening, when we had the convo where my W insisted on her privacy and her Rat Meat Account, I realized that I DID have enough information. I don't and won't need anything beyond that to convince me that, from my view, the A is still going on. Even if my W believes that it's not, she also believes that continued contact with Rat Meat is harmless, or that she can control it or yada yada yada. No. It's a threat to our R, our intimacy, our M. If it's not over, and soon, I'm done.

I would like to say this to my W. I am angry enough that I probably will (but in a calm tone when I do). I did that night, and I have at most of our previous MC sessions.

My only concerns now are based on the fact that we've stopped our MC sessions indefinitely, and my W's IC is getting nowhere with helping my W stop contact (and I have no idea whether she's even trying). SC has SH to help both of them, and he's aware of how each of them is reacting to developments. AND YET, he's urging caution in SC's case. My concern now is that if I go to plan B soon (and I MUST do SOMETHING), my W may literally fall apart, which would have a very adverse affect on our kids and extended family, plus our ability to deal with issues that arise with rebuilding our house. My W would rather wait until the house is finished to decide whether to stay M'd or not. That could take as long as 2 years or more. I can't "wait" even 2 months for a breakthrough. And even 2 months is plenty of time for WW and OM to get together a few times when he's in town, and each of those times will be additional agony that I simply don't want to put up with while I'm needed for escalating work responsibilities.

In truth, I would rather not even wait 2 weeks, but with my IC out of town next week, I have to. I will work on plan B ideas until I see him again, bounce them off you folks, and then DO SOMETHING, probably within a few weeks.

See? I have to deal now with plans for tomorrow. W wants to go to the swap meet, and all I can think of is working on one of my cars to get it ready to sell so I don't have so much "stuff" to liquidate after we separate.

What a life!