2L; sell the car now, as is, and invest the money in Cing with Steve. It'll be the best investment you will ever make!

Things will start becoming so clear after a couple of sessions, that you'll kick yourself for not having done it sooner.

This is for YOUR peace of mind and tranquility. Never mind what WW has to say about it.

<small>[ July 19, 2002, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

2long,

Sorry, I wasn't clear and since you can't read my mind. What I meant was that I believe that you are gathering information so that you can decide what to do about your sitch.

Not that you are gathering information on whether or not your W is having an A. No question about it; she is having an A.

What you do about that especially in light of your new information; I'm not sure you're ready to decide and I applaud your cautiousness. You've probably heard this enough, but I want to remind you that your recovery is about you.

During my last conversation with SH I told him about the paradign shift I had when "my recovery" split from the M recovery. He told me that the reason that occurred is becuase I came to terms with the fact that only I am responsible for my recovery; where my M's recovery is dependent on my H and me. So he said I simply retreated to where it was safe.

I hope you decide to work on the car. It sounds like you would be taking care of you if you made that choice. Blessings! CSue

SC, CSue:

I think my reasons for working on the car are more quiet thinking time therapy-related than monetary. One's a 42-yr old VW pickup that is a real beater but very versatile and fun to drive, and the other is my 73-yr old Model A that I bought when I was in HS. That would be awsesome therapy to work on again. The VW isn't worth more than about a grand right now, but the Ford might pull down about $5K in it's present condition.

There are other things I could do that would be distracting and theraputic, like reorganize my garage, work on a ton of unfinished projects, read M-related books!

Incidentally, I left "Divorce Remedy" face up next to the bed this am. Memorized it's orientation to see if my W checks it out. I like the anti-M cliches quoted in the first sentences of the introduction (anti-M! anti-M! Dorothy!). If my W reads that, maybe she'll see that I'm right when I say that what we're going through is not unique, and she'll take an active role in trying to sort herself out so we can work on our M.

Also, last night, in addition to wanting me to hold her hand, she'd brought home a sample roll of wallpaper for the house. Now, it's going to be at least a year before we can put up wallpaper, so why would she be buying any now? Answer, she's trying to show me she doesn't want to lose our M. Strange creatures, these WSs, huh?

<small>[ July 19, 2002, 11:46 AM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

They are strange creatures, these WSs. But yours, like mine, is stuggling with the decision; they love us, but they have an addiction/desire they cannot fully control, they waver, they doubt, and so the rollercoaster goes on...

Like I said some time back; I think the Weiner-Davis book is the most "female-friendly" and I guessed back then that IF your W read it, she MIGHT start questioning or doubting some of her long-held convictions. Hope she DOES pick it up!

2long,

It seems she is trying in her own way. There has to be hope in that. It could be that it is the best she can do right now.

I don't know why but I feel great empathy for her. And I wonder too how she would "deal with" you going to Plan B or DV. I hope you both have a low key, peaceful weekend just resting and regrouping. CSue

CSue:

I realize she is trying, too. But she can't let go of her addiction, and so when SHE LBs ME, the remarks are hateful and hurtful, and it's getting to be more than I can bear.

I plan to stay low-key this weekend, as much as I am able to. I won't bring up any talk of R or DV or OM, but if she does, I'll be concise and firm.

2Long,

Do you have a mirror in your home? If so, try this (I actually did this) when the WS starts to get angry and attempts to pour her anger on you and it is not warranted, direct her to the mirror. Let her know as calmly as possible that you no longer choose to take her anger unless it is warranted (ie: like you left the toilet seat up again!!).

If you are trying to speak with her and she is acting brain dead or shutting you off, talk to the wall.

Now this sounds crazy but I have tried this and when I did, it made a positive impact on the WS. He answered me when I spoke to the wall and he did look in the mirro and does not pour his anger out on me anymore (at least for now - LOL!!).

See that was part of my boundary.

L.

Orchid:

Hm....

yeah, the rental we're in has a mirror or two. Wouldn't it be great, though, if the wall were made of brick? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

It's not so hard for me to understand. When hubby and I were getting ready to split, I was still picking out wallpapers and seeing things that would look great in the house we'd just built. Even though I KNEW I wasn't going to beliving there. I think that's what happens when you live two lives in your head simutaneously. The lines between them get harder to see. I was still there with hubby and part of me just kept going through the motions I was used to going through.

Realize, also, that just because YOU see the end as a real possibility...wife is FAR from seeing that as a reality. You are each living in your own head...your own perception of your marriage and your life. You have your information and opinions and advice gathered from books and posters and personal experience. And she has her information...basically whatever she lets in as the truth. She doesnt' have your information...she will refuse to see it even if it's written right in front of her (so forget the idea that she'll GET anything from the book even if she DOES glance at it)...and she WON'T let in that information as long as she believes she knows all she needs to know to get by with the life she has. Take that away from her, though...and maybe she'll be a little more open to suggestions.

h4f:

You're right, and I'm certainly not going to hang my entire weekend and how it goes on whether she reads the book or not. It's actually on the floor, along with a bunch of magazines and tool catalogs, because my nightstand only has room for the clock radio (which smells like smoke).

Maybe I should cut the pages out of the book and wallpaper our bedroom with them? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Yeah, I guess I sound like I'm still hanging on every little thing she says or does for a sign that the fog might thin. And though it might not sound like it, I *am* getting myself psyched for plan B, either with me leaving or her leaving, in the not very distant future.

Ripples in the ether:
1) My daughter leaves for London next week (And her lovebird died last night <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> )
2) Son doesn't know, but he's a bright, sensitive young man and knows something is wrong. He loves his mom very much.
3) My IC is gone all next week. I'd really like some good recommendations from him before I go to plan B, plus referrals to family lawyers (though I could get that from my IC at work, I suppose).
4) Have a big 10-day simulation test coming up in about 2.5 weeks that will keep me BUSY at work - I don't know whether I can be better able to focus BEFORE going to plan B or AFTER it.

Herds of other complications that I can't think of at the moment. So, yeah... I still hope a teensy bit that, in my W's case, a small thermonuclear device, say a few kilotons, will go off in her head and she'll hear it and say something like "Oh yeah!"

There's absolutely NOTHING wrong with HOPING...just don't EXPECT!

I know you've got so much going on. I remember, though, when I looked to leave...and I stalled and stalled and stalled because there was ALWAYS SOMETHING. So yes...you need to wait for a more opportune time...but there will never be a perfect time.

I know you already know that ;-)

Hi 2long,

I think when you were tired, you missed my post to you yesterday. Third down, on page 12.

If you already read it, then apoligies.
SS

<small>[ July 19, 2002, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

SS:

I saw it, but my brain was only firing 3 synapses/minute at the time, so I sat in my chair, drooled a bit, then fell asleep for a half hour...

"3 hours of sleep, man, I hope it gets better.
After watching you over the last few months, I want to make some observations. I am not going to use quotes as it would take to long to look everything up.
1. I think you are protecting your wife's feelings at your expense. You are trying so hard to not LB that you are letting her LB you to death."

This is the TRUTH. And it's not helping HER at all, either. And that's why, last night when she asked me to hold her hand for a while, I didn't say anything, just listened. Didn't respond to anything that I might otherwise take as LB "bait", just listened. Waited for her to ask me something, anything about how I felt or how to help her feel better, but didn't expect anything (did I do good, H4F?) and so when it didn't happen, I didn't worry about it. Heck, after her "when you say ILY, I only hear hurt, anger, need, want" comment, I know better than to say THAT without being asked. So, I won't LB if I can avoid it, but most importantly, I won't react when she tries to push my buttons.

"2. You can't go on much longer. I think most if not all of us agree on this. I believe even you agree."

This is most certainly true. It'd sure be neat if I could figure out how to do a plan B without disrupting the family, but I can't. In some ways, I think that my cooling down after all the feedback (and sleep) I've gotten has helped me to be prepared to continue plan A if going to be right now would be too difficult for me (difficult, not undesirable - I'd love to be alone for a while, actually, but I'm not sure how ready I am for DV, if that's the result).

"3. There are so many conflicting thoughts in your mind that are competing for space that it is almost impossible to decide a direction, timeline, change plans."

And the pressure is in the megabar range already and still rising!!

"4. You get many good ideas and support here but also some conflicting advice that further clouds your vision."

Yep. Having a decent IC myself, an unknown but infrequent IC for my W and NO MC isn't much help in making this difficult choice, either.

"So to sum it up, you are up in the air about what to do, with rapidly diminishing ability to continue as you are now. You are about to change plans but you don't know what to change to."

Ain't it the truth, ain't it the truth.

"I don't believe you are in a good spot. JL has good advice for you. Don't worry about it for a few weeks. But I don't know if you will be able to do even that. It would give you a needed rest, let things slowly simmer and maybe you would be able to continue for a while."

And part of this is my few percent remaining uncertainty that my interpretations of my sitch are correct and that nothing short of plan B will change it.

"I suggest if you can do it to go ahead. I have an additional suggestion. I think you should bite the bullet and call Steve Harley. I think you should do 2 or 3 sessions - long enough to firm up a plan in your mind, and then do whatever it is. You have been two long in limbo. ( pun intended) You need something outside your self to confirm your course of action. I can't think of a better place to go for help."

I think I can stick it out in plan A for a little longer, just haven't decided whether I should, or not. I'm really not sure whether I should call SH at this point, though, because I'm working with an IC that knows me and has spoken with my W. Working with SH would take a couple of calls, at least, just to get him up to speed on my sitch, and my W already has scoffed at MB and the cost of phone C, so working with her might not be easy, either (and ME working with SH would annoy her, at more than double the cost of my current IC, who she likes). I know... good C for whatever price is better than DV. So, I guess I really am just plain undecided about this.

"I believe unless you get some relief you are going to come apart one day and go for the D. I would rather see you use some other options first."

I realized that I was really in need of relief when I suggested, though calmly, that we get DVd the other night. I should have said 'separated'.

"My other suggestion is to find a way to tell wife your feelings. I think Steve can help you with this also. You seem to be keeping to much inside for even plan A. There are things she needs to be protected from, and you do need to protect her. BUT, she should not be protected from the consequences of her own actions. That's the only thing that can give her reason to change. So, if those things are LB's, so be it. Let her feel them."

Yep. That was one of the biggest LBs in recent history, when she felt I was "blaming her" for our problems, because I was trying to make it clear that we've got (a) problems with our M that need to be worked out that are 50% my responsibility, and (b) this damned A to END and process that's exactly 0% my responsibility. She left in anger when I said I had nothing to do with her choice to have an A.

I truly would love it if I could get my W to talk to one of the Harleys with me. I actually like the idea of a C that's interested in working with BOTH partners. I hear most are not. And our Kaiser MC WON'T talk to either of us individually, and her IC WON'T talk to me. At least my IC asked to meet her and get her view at the beginning, but he won't C us together. I should look up why that is the case most often, and why the Harleys are an exception. It seems to be a better method. Is it? or are they just good for the people here that talk about their experiences?

"I can't stand watching her destroy the love you have - please change things. Get off the merry-go-round, let the world stop spinning."

If I could figure out a way to do this without disrupting our family, I'd do it. ...I just realized that my reasons for not wanting to disrupt our family have a lot to do with the quality of our family life. We get along very well interacting with one another. And why is that, when my M is such a shambles??? Heck, my W has compartmentalized me and OM SO DARN WELL for so long that it's "worked" as well as it has. So, maybe I'm not so dense after all for taking 11 years to discover the A. After all, nobody else was aware of it either.

"It really is a pretty nice place we've all got here, I'd like you to see it again."

I look at it from time to time! It would be nice to be able to truly "see" it, though.

2long,

Just a thought. Have you read Persistant's thread on JFO recently from the beginning. I'm not suggesting you read the entire thread; but the beginning is relevant to your sitch.

Then at some point with counseling with Jennifer Harley he and his WW did a plan B in the same house.

It might be helpful for you because you may look at it with "new eyes" now that you have gathered more information. CSue

CSue:

I tried to read Persistant's thread once, but it was SO LONG that I got scared and ran screaming from the room!

I will check that out. Should be interesting...

DArn!!

Forgot to celebrate my 1700th post!

2long,

Better watch out...Space will be jealous; you know how he is!!

Regarding Persistant's thread; what is encouraging about his journey is that he seems to be at peace. Remarkable what he has been through; and it was their family life and best interest of their daughter which kept him motivated. It seems that he likes who he is now, far more than who he was then...at the time of the A. It's back to the journey plan A, plan B, whatever...being about you.

JL could probably give you an edited version of P's experience since he's supported him through it. CSue

CSue:

I'd hate to show my ignorance here, but what did happen?

I haven't gotten very far, and am trying to catch up on some work that's been falling behind due to my "distraction."

Yea..... 2Longs @ 1705!!!!

a..hemmm.... what is the politically or MB correct gift to give someone for their 1700th posts?

Where is Ms. Manners of MB?!?!?!? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CSue:
<strong>2long,

Better watch out...Space will be jealous; you know how he is!!
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmmm...as I recall, It was Mr. 2L who was concerned about the number of posts to his thread...not I <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />