2L,

I am mixed about whether you should respond to her email. She is still blame shifting and will continue to at all opportunities. So my suggestion is not to respond to her. The email had nothing in it worth responding to. All you could really do is "educate" her.

You do know what love is.

You do know what commitment means.

You have tried to save the marriage.

You will not share your marriage with another man.

Those are basic concepts, and she is unwilling to admit to them or try to understand them.

If I were to send anything it would be one line. "You have missed my point. I am trying to preserve my love for until such time as you can decide how you want your life to proceed."

And then leave it at that. There is nothing romantic you can say. There is no coaching you can do. The counselors must do that.

As for your W being deslexic (I am as you can tell by my spelling,and have been all my life), let her figure out how to deal with that and anything else she has to deal with. It really is her job.

I must go home and pack for travel tomorrow. Hang in there 2L and have lots of patience.

She is going to wiggle, manuver, negotiate, bargin, everything BEFORE she faces herself. The odd thing it seems that many alreardy know what she was up to, and could tell from her behavior. Interesting isn't it. Her behavior has been so of the wall that even her sister knew what was up. It wasn't just you 2L.

Must go, God Bless,

JL

PS: If this stuff doesn't bring you back to religion nothing will. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

((((((((((((((((((((((((((2long))))))))))))))))))

I am so sorry you are going through this.

All I can do is offer support and urge you to be strong.

There were times in my Plan A and B where I needed to be firm, too, and I know how hard it can be because you are afraid to lose everything.

However I still stand by my belief that she does not understand that you MEAN it this time. She needs to know that before anything can be resolved, one way or the other. And YOU need her to know that too.

It is getting late again....shouldn't you get some sleep? If not, I am on the MB night shift (since it is DAY where I live)...I will be gone for a little bit however.

Take care,

Jacky

JL!

Good to have you log in! Thanks for that "reality check" approach. I need to back off from what I was writing - placating mostly, but some of what I truly feel - and think about that kind of response. Or no response at all, as you suggested.

This has been the hardest week of my life, far harder than D-day and shortly afterward (All I had to do then was cry my eyes out, after all). I have to THINK on top of crying my eyes out.

It's so hard to see someone you love so much, and have loved for so long (2long!), and know their confusion and KNOW the answers, and to be able only to sit back and let them save or destroy themselves. Very hard.

I tend to agree with JL... She's opened a veritable minefield for you to get blowded up on! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

You made your "love" statement... I personally think it's time to start shifting to your stance...

Don't get too stressed right now, okay? This is a transition time, and no-one does this "perfectly"... there is no such thing. We're all most imperfect, I think, when dealing with matters of the heart. What I seem to have found is that if the WS is truly a fence sitter / cake eater extraordinare, there IS very little we can do that's truly fatal... not that the theory should be TESTED, but it's just an observation...

And it leads into an important axiom - stay relaxed, stay confident. It's a PMA (positive mental attitude) that becomes more important as times goes on in any Plan. It will ooze out of your pores and have a lot of value.

I say sleep on any response... if you're inclined to send anything, do it later... there's no fire, as I often need to remind myself. Your patience will be tested now, more than ever.

Nina Too:

Your post was a reality check for me too. I appreciate it. Like I said above, it's very hard not to want to hold out a hand an cushion her fall here. I WANT to protect her from any hurt, any crying that "waking up" might entail. But I also know that crashing and burning may be just what she needs to experience RIGHT NOW. There's never going to be a "convenient time" for this. I have a HUGE schedule of big commitments at work coming up over the next month or so, and I can't ignore them. My W has a report to finish (though it's getting harder and harder to tell whether it's the report or Rat Meat that's the reason for the delays!) and 2 new projects to start. So, no "good time" to deal with any of this R crap!

I'll probably stay up for an hour or two. That'll give me about 5 or 6 hours sleep. I really haven't needed more than that for some time, so it's been unusual when I've slept even 7 hours in the past several years.

I'll be here. I love the insight!

J.R. Thanks for chiming in! I know it's late for you, too, as you're up north in the same state (of affairs? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ) as I am.

You guys are real saviours, you know?

And JL. Funny you should mention the Jesus stuff. I was talking to MIL about that. *I* wondered if my W might have a SMALL desire to go that route for comfort in this time - after all she was a "jesus freak" when we met and started dating. I think it's a small chance, a very small one, but it occurred to me that there's an equally small chance that she might be reluctant to express her desires (if she has them) for fear that I might be antagonistic.

I stopped being so negative about religion several years ago. Basically, it took several years to get over the resentment I felt for being "brought up" as a Christian Scientist without choosing it on my own, to becoming an agnostic, then an "antagonsitic" atheist, to now being comfortable with the knowledge that "we're all just trying to figure our $h!t out". A very comfortable position for me now. But some people are still somewhat put off by my being an atheist. I hope that my W doesn't have that feeling, however how small.

Love and care to all,

2Long,
I agree with Nina that your wife's letter wasn't really as nice as it sounds:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> W: "I agree you do need time, time to think about what love is, it is not owning, it is not having, it is sharing, it is caring, it is looking past the faults because we all have them, and trying to help make each other be better, each life a little easier, happier, kinder. It is accepting each other for what we are, and the moments shared, they do not fade or end, but do change... of late the moment together are almost all filled with pain and hurt, and fear not loving. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My translation: "Yeah, you need time to think about what love is. It's not owning me or having me to yourself; it is sharing me with Rat Meat and caring enough for me to let me have both Rat Meat and you; it is looking past my faults (and you have plenty, too!) and trying to make yourself better and making my life easier, happier, kinder. It is you accepting me for what I am and being happy for what moments I deign to share with you; memories of these moments should not fade or end...of late, the moments together are almost all filled with pain and hurt and fear because you don't want me to have Rat Meat, and that makes me not feel loving (actually, it makes her feel guilty)."

I kind of agree with JL about not responding. Anything you might say could be by her as starting an argument.

If you do respond to her, I wouldn't say anything more than: "I agree. I am filled with pain and hurt and don't feel loved, but am trying to preserve my love for you. I will be in touch with you at a later time."

Of course, JL is probably right....best not to respond.

LC:

More good advice! Yes, as I re-read what my W wrote, I see things like ""love is, it is not owning, it is not having, it is sharing me with Rat Meat, it is caring, it is looking past the faults because we all have them, especially me and Rat Meat..." yada yada. Still it is more out of her than I've gotten in a long time. And so now I realize: I'M not the only one with a communication problem here. It's a two-way street!

I probably won't respond. Maybe I'll wait until I have an appt with SH.

Thanks for the support!

Okay:

You've all made me realize that I was being hoodwinked (though not necessarily consciously) by my foggy brained babe.

I'm NOT going to send this, at least not tonight, but here's what I wrote, largely based on what JL said:

"I *DO* know what love is. I LOVE YOU!!

I know what commitment means. I am devoted exclusively to you.

I am trying to save our marriage and our family. I believe in you and US.

I will not share you with Rat Meat or any other man.

You have missed my point in your reply. I am trying to preserve the love I have for you until such time as you can decide how you want your life to proceed after the tragedy of the past 12 years.

I love you, and will wait for you to decide."

Again, I don't think I'll send this, it's mainly a vent. The Plan B letter will cover these points, in a less LBing manner at that.

Thanks, folks. I think I can sleep now.

2Long I simpathize with your situation because it brings back the feelings I had for my xWW when she was having her multiple A's. It wasn't until I realized that she and I would never be the way were before she became addicted to her A's, that I made the hardest choice in my life which was to end my marriage to her. Even though I hated her arrogant attitude and parental neglect of our two daughters, I still cared very much for her because I knew that she was going to crash and burn much sooner than later. And boy did she ever crash and burn according to one of her last remaining friends. But even though I was tempted to reach out and help her, I made the tough decision that the only way the I could help her was by not helping her. Maybe it's time for you to stop trying to help her and instead help yourself to move on with your life.

Even better...yes I agree that no response is better. I am doing that right NOW...hehe! I just got an antagonistic email from stbx, telling me ONCE AGAIN (his phrase) to buy a web cam so he can see the kids........cos Gee, he MISSES them <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> .

I bought a scanner, I send him photos all the time, but of course he has to try to control me even more. It is a different situation from yours of course, but there are just some emails that do not require a response.

Anyway, I am off again for a bit...son's swimming lesson.

L&L,

Jacky

Nina Too:

Gee, how do you guys keep the water on the ground, what with it being on the "bottom" of the globe and all? Seriously, some of my favorite real estate on Mars is in the southern hemisphere!

Thanks for the feedback. I agree. No response at this time is the best response.

TMCM:

Right now, this is my biggest fear: That her A went on for 2long and there's no hope for our M. I sure hope that's not the case. I will wait for her to make a decision for as long as I can, but I don't yet know how long that will be. At some point, I won't have the energy left to try anymore.

But I've got some left now. And who knows? Maybe the crashing/burning/getting GOOD help process will take enough time to allow me to get some work done? Hopefully not 2long, though, or I might start dating! (not really, but I am starting to notice pretty chicks when I see them now) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

2long -

I have wanted to slap, protect, yell, hug, and shake some sense into my H, but it wouldn't make one bit of difference as to the situation I am in now. Only H can decide that the A isn't what he really wants. This is the same thing with your wife.

The reason why the no contact rule exists in Plan B is because every time they choose either to be with the OP, or choose to NOT be with you, it destroys love. But when you don't have contact, your love is preserved out of ignorance...so to speak. Plan B is a very hard place to be for those of us who like to be actively doing something towards a goal. Plan B takes loads of patience and loads of even more patience and even more patience.

Lo

2L;

I agree with the posters (Lostwife, Nina, JL, JR) in that you must stand firm on this, and that there is nothing better that you can do for her than to stand firm. Any "out" you give her now will harm her and you in the long run. You know this.

As for a response, mine would be closer to what LostWife suggested; a clearer "I love you but I cannot share you" rather than the more "vague" response JL suggested. BUT, that's just my opinion. I tend to want to make things clear, and many times it is not necessary, as responses such as JL's can get through just as clearly.

What IS clear, is that she is still trying, albeit in a "nice" way, to get you to agree to "share" her. And in this you must not be vague at all, whatever your response is.

2long I hope you got some sleep!

Dislexya... damn the word and the spelling, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> was an issue to me untill I made the decision of putting things straight with my teachers, tutors and so forth. I couldn't learn anything scientific in a class that required going over the concepts over and over and over because my classmates wouldn't get it. We reached a kind of agreement in which I could come in the class in the middle of the session, sit quietly and see what happened. After a month my marks skyrocketed and I was selected for several literature related prizes (I used the spare time for writting <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ).

They decided to acknowledge that I didn't give a rat buttocks about standarized school or tests, that I was doing it all to get to the good part, which was college, and they left me alone. Still I failed my Spaniard version of the SAT in the math section in purpose with a 0 to demostrate math was overrated. I did, I got into college with high marks in every other exam, and tadaaa, screw math.

I had good mentors to help me with it, school never invaded my in-home space, even when school demanded most of my waking hours.

It is true your WW is really missing out big time, but maybe her crazy idea of getting over her trauma is to be independant, do whatever she wants, and prove herself at any cost.

I agree that the sharing remark on the e-mail was very out of line and very clone like. It was the number 1 thing that annoyed me when I first read her response.

At times like these I wish the response could be something like: "My dearest W, since sharing is so important to you in the definition of love... can I sleep with (ficticious hot tamale female here)?" I know I know, bad bad idea, bad Alostwife, baaaad, *fwaps self over the head*

I do think plan B is in order though. She is big time cake eating, she is hoping you will crack under the pressure. She claims you just left out of the blue with no explanation. I say... send him the B letter and let her figure it out.

2long you have given and given and tried your best, your giver snapped, it is time for you to be on your own. Your wife is draining your love bank and soon you will be saying you dont want her anymore. Protect the love you have for her, let her learn what it is to be alone, what it is to be without you to wait in the rebound after a RatMeat meal.

((((((((((hugs))))))))))

About your son and dislexya... hate that word... disregarding test results as nonsense does help. My parents did, and they never stopped having 100% faith on my capacity or ability to do better. Yes they were very demanding too, but they never really used the word on me, or said anything like: "Oh you poor thing, don't worry, you just can't do it, not your fault"

A personal tuthor afterschool always worked wonders. My teachers recommended me one and she was a life saver. I learnt 5 times as fast as any of my classmates in individual tuthoring, also the knowledge I earned has stuck on my brain.

Back home we are required to have 3rd college year math, physics, and chemistry when we finish High School, I scaped the last two by choosing Latin, and Greek teehee! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Alright enough rambling.
((((hugglez))))

Good stuff folks.

I'm inclined to want to write a short reply, but I've got to call MB first, now that I'm in my office.

I'll let you know what I write, for feedback, before I send anything. I don't want to screw this up.

Okay folks. I'm INKED for the 1st of August. Nothing open before that, but I did ask to be put on the (long) cancellation list just in case. I gave them my W's name as well, because I'd like to try to approach her about participating if she will. If she won't, I'll go it alone this time. But I want her to know what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. I'm tired of innefective Cing at Kaiser. I need her to realize that this is an emergency - we need to face our problems now, not when she gets around to dealing with them or talks me into "sharing" her with Rat Meat.

Hey Kiddo...

Yep ... her response was a politely worded "take it or leave it " .... the part that cheesed me off is "Why do I have to choose? You're BOTH so wonderful in your own way." What a effin' insult! I feel personally insulted because I take this as a slap in the face to the vows of marriage themselves ... which in essence say "I choose YOU for the rest of my life". That's the premise underwhich you got married ... not this sharing me is loving me horsesh*t.

Do not reply. She still has NO idea how much you bleed from your soul over this.

Did you see "Forrest Gump"? Remember Jenny says to Forest, "You don't know what love is." ..... And Forest is pierced to his core, he responds," I am not a smart man. But I DO know what love is!". Then he walks away with dignity.

If you really want to make this situation turn around ... you're goning to have to play hardball. She is clever, she is glib, and she can twist your heart like a pretzel.

She knows how much you love her. She does not feel in her core how much she has hurt you. I do not believe she will "get it" until she feels the depth of your despair. You cannot teach her your despair. You cannot educate her your despair. You can only be truthful to yourself .... and let the consequences unfold. I KNOW you wish you had some degree of "control" over this that you could manage with your intellect ... but, Kiddo, she is very skilled with that intellect of her own and she uses it like a weapon. Do not engage your intellect with hers in the hopes of showing her the light and the way. It will not work.

Remember our phone conversation, I said, "She thinks if you love her enough, you'll let her keep Rat Meat.... and she will love you more if you do." ....... NOT!

If you cannot stop yourself from responding .... I suggest you say something like this:

"I hurt too much to continue."

No more than one sentence that describes your pain.

"The weight of my agony is exhausting."

Some things cannot be broken down into science ... hence there is no rebuttal.

"I do not feel safe in this triangle."

Get it?

Stop argueing. You'll never stop argueing if you expect her to stop first. YOU stop. Go to the deep well inside yourself. Pull out your guts and examine them. You've needed to do this for awhile, but instead, you've focused on HER guts, HER feelings. HER thoughts. NO MORE. This is about YOU YOU YOU.

There is a pattern of communication errors that you both have contributed to over the years. What part of this can 2Long change?

Pep (still optimistic about this in the long run) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

I agree with pepper that it is hardball time.

She cannot, will not, shall not have her cake and eat it too. Do NOT under any circumstances, let her talk you into sharing her with RatBleepingStinkyMeat. You are a fillet mignon, he is road kill, those two things don't go together no matter what she finds so wonderful on a half rotten carcass down the closest interstate.

Stay strong 2long, it is time to take your stand.