SC:

I just re-read your post with the quotes from Divorce Remedy.

Yes, I had read those paragraphs, and I agree whole-heartedly. I think that the Kaiser thereapists are using the second-described "method" at best.

Pi$$e$ me off to think that for the past 4 months, we were continuing to grow more inward, with my W compartmentalizing once again (because she had recognized that THAT was what she was doing back in November, and had been trying to stop it THEN) and me trying to protect my feelings, and only appearing to "work together" by being "nice" to each other (me plan A'ing, and her responding). This "method" was not only not getting us anywhere, it was causing further damage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>SC:

I just re-read your post with the quotes from Divorce Remedy.

Yes, I had read those paragraphs, and I agree whole-heartedly. I think that the Kaiser thereapists are using the second-described "method" at best.

Pi$$e$ me off to think that for the past 4 months, we were continuing to grow more inward, with my W compartmentalizing once again (because she had recognized that THAT was what she was doing back in November, and had been trying to stop it THEN) and me trying to protect my feelings, and only appearing to "work together" by being "nice" to each other (me plan A'ing, and her responding). This "method" was not only not getting us anywhere, it was causing further damage.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There's no doubt in my mind that one session with Steve is worth 2-3 with any of these so-called experts!

I mean look at what he's done with my W! Remember she'd dumped 2 therapists earlier when things got "hot", and with Steve, she's taking the heat, and even regurgitating some of the words...so that's progress!

Have faith; maybe soon you'll be able to say the same for your W!

SC:

I agree. It's sad just how much damage can be done by well-meaning Cs or organizations. Trouble here is, I'm not even convinced that Kaiser Cs are well-meaning. I'm just tweaked.

I am composing a response to my W's question about the SF incident. I think that's harmless enough. I'm still a bit surprised that the no-reply MB team isn't throwing stuff at me by now! Maybe it's happy hour in the local bars?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Back to work.

2long,
I think even I would stay away from the SF thing. I think I would just say it wasn't why you left.

I think you want her to focus on your feelings.
After all, isn't that why you left? She has done so much damage to your feelings by continued contact? She doesn't understand how much it hurts. Or perhaps the SF thing is part of your reason, perhaps I missed something there.

I have to go again, sorry. I am not much good right now, out of office tomorrow, Friday, Saturday. Hope I can grab some air time in the next few days and stay with you.

Ss

I am just watching/waiting to see what you decide to do Kiddo.

I wonder if you are still too tender and emotionally driven to re-enter the R discussion boxing ring.

I think she knows why you left. You told her. You are not in plan B .... you are on a vacation from the pain. A rest cure.

If you discuss things ... what are your goals? What are your motives?

You are, of course, master of your domain, and king of your castle <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

2L,

I think that SS is right, the SF thing isn' t the issue here, although she needs to simply know that SF in any form was not why you left. Let me see if I can summarize why you left from what
"little" I have read.

1. She is splitting her emotional capital between you and OM with her continued contact.

2. She constantly judges you and LB's when you try to explain your feelings to her.

3. She is fence sitting and it is tearing you apart.

The list could be longer I am sure, but the point to be made is you love her but those three items are just driving you away from her. This email should be short, clear, and most of all convey that you still love her although she is driving you away. That is why you left. You couldn't resist her pushing you any longer.

God Bless,

JL

Good advice, all.

I had written a response about the SF thing, but it was a waste of bits, other than to tell her that I would ask my IC her question next Friday when I see him again.

I do want to reply to the other stuff, though. I will do my best to keep it short, too. I really need to find out if this means of communicating through email can help us at all.

Pepper: Thanks for not shooting me on the spot.

Write a letter and post it here, THEN we shoot you down, LOL!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Seriously, remember that most here believe she knows exactly why you left that night...how could she NOT know after telling you what she did? Her reading and writing may be dyslexic, but her brain works just fine, as you have said yourself. If she can dictate good scientific papers, she can certainly work out how it came to be that you walked out the door. I mean, you know your wife, as you say...you know she isn't stupid. She has already worked out what went wrong that night, but she is not going to admit that to you.

I still maintain that she is trying to have her cake, and she wants you to believe that that is okay. This has become a 'him or me' situation, and she knows it, and yet she is still waffling, diverting your attention to other 'problems' and so on.

I maintain that you do not address emotive issues with her, because it WILL just keep going around in cirles until she sees the light (with all due respect to SS).

Love and light,

Jacky

Nina Too:

I think this point about whether she knows why I left or not is the crux of the decision as to whether I email (in detail - hey, that rhymes!) or not.

I think not. Pure and simple. I think it's OBVIOUS that consciously, she can't face it and so she distracts herself by being to busy to think. I also believe that subconsciously she DOES know why, but her subconscious thoughts can't break through to the surface, either because this R went on for 2long or her stubborness won't let them. Probably both.

I also think she's pretty tough, like is evident from her willingness to make blunt statements to ME in her emails, so I believe she can TAKE it in reply. Sure, she might get angry (but I won't be in the room with her), but she can't deny the fact that I'm hurt because I LOVE HER and can't accomodate this other R any longer.

Think of it as similar to some "new" WSs that post here. Initially, they may come here for validation for the A that they're still in. Do we write one-line replies with kid gloves so as to not scare them off? No. Do they go away afraid. Probably some do. The tough ones, like CMiranda, for example, have stayed on the forum, even contributing in a positive way when they can. I think my W is a "tough one", and so I think it's more likely that she'll respond than react to my email. If she reacts, though, what do I have to lose? Our M is already broken. If I keep my feelings to myself forever, it's going to stay broken forever too. I truly believe that.

Yes, this reply I'm composing (much like the "huge vent" that Pepper liked so much from... was that one or 2 days ago?) will be something of a LB, but I've been avoiding the "sensitive" stuff for far 2long now, and she's been avoiding facing them herself for far longer, so...? At worst, this is a tough-love prelude to a plan B letter, or a "plan A letter" if there is such a thing. I don't know.

<small>[ July 24, 2002, 07:53 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

I have to pack up and head home now. My email has gotten majorly long, of course. I'm really not sure I can make it very short, actually. I certainly won't be able to respond in a few sentences. No way. Not enough information.

I will post it for feedback this evening and before I send it.

Alright, alright.

So you write her a letter that says:

"Dear WW,

I want to make clear that I left due to the divided affection you display between me and RatMeat. You have insisted this is the way you feel, just as in your "I wish I was cloned" remark, which was not only hurtful, but disrespectful. I appreciate you telling me your real feeling nontheless, but I have had it.

I love you, and I refuse to loose the last of my love for you living like we have been doing for the last months. This is why I need to distance myself from you untill you decide to terminate any kind of relationship or contact with RatMeat.

I don't care if he is still hired, if you cannot fire him, I don't, I am through, you decide what is most important to you. If you don't then that'll mean you will loose me, forever.

Decide or never see me again, it is your choice.

Still in love with you,
2long"

Well, $h!t. You guys may end up being right in the end. I don't know what to make of things now. In my last email telling my W that my C appointment was a week off and I'd ask her question about the SF incident then, I also reminded her of my hurt due to her R with Rat Meat. She ignored that part.

Anyway, here's my vent from the other day, with considerable edits. I realize it's 2long, but it's easier to boil it down than add text later.

I don't know. I have to do something. Really do. Either that or really do a hard-core plan B, and I don't thing I'm out of love enough for that in many ways. But she may be fogged enough for that.

W: I agree you do need time, time to think about what love is, it is not
owning , it is not having, it is shareing, it is caring, it is looking past the
faults because we all have them, and trying to help make each other be
better, each life a little easier, happier, kinder it is excepting each other
for what we are, and the moments shared, they do not fade or end, but
do change...

2long: I do know what love is. And I love YOU, faults and all, even knowing what I now know about your life. I want to feel safe sharing everything about me with you from now on, and I want you to feel safe sharing your innermost feelings and ambitions with me. All the good stuff, all the bad stuff, ALL OF IT. I want to support you in every way in your endeavors with your research property. I want us to nurture and care for each other and help each other continue to grow intellectually, just like we promised each other 26 years ago. I cannot and will not do that any longer if I have to "share" you with Rat Meat.

W: of late the moment together are almost all filled with pain
and hurt, and fear not loving.

2long: And why is this? For me, it’s because you love two people at the same time that I hurt as much as I do. And the longer your other relationship continues, the more intense the pain. I don't agree that fear has replaced my love for you. Sure, I'm afraid that you will "choose" to continue your "friendship" with Rat Meat, but I will never stop loving you. When I say I love you, I mean it.

W: So you ask me to share my thought withyou and so I do and all they
seem to do is hurt you yes I'm very trone, each of you have wonderful
things to give...

2long: But Rat Meat has given himself to OMW and they have a family together. Now that both our families are aware of your affair, he needs to GET BACK to his own family, exclusively and WITHOUT YOU. Have either of you thought about how the breakup of his family has affected them? Have you thought about how hard it will be for them to rebuild their trust in him if you continue to correspond with him in any way? I know how horrible this feels EVERY DAY. Have you thought about how you plan to explain your relationship with Rat Meat to our son? He loves and admires you very much. You already know how our daughter feels about his intrusion into our lives. Do you want our son to grow up believing that he can be dishonest and cheat in his own relationships just because he becomes attracted to someone else?

W: I hate that I would ever have to choose.

2long: I'm sorry you are stuck on this, but there is absolutely no question that you DO have to choose. The quality of our marriage in the past 12 years isn't so much due to our inability to communicate, although that is a very big problem we have to deal with. It's because your emotions were divided, and so you were incapable of being truly intimate with me and your family in every sense of the word during that time. Even between your affairs, you had to keep part of your life secret from me. You had to be on your guard, so as not to reveal anything that might show just what you and Rat Meat had done to your families. How could we be truly intimate if you couldn’t even share your experiences and feelings with me?

We have a 28-year history of memories and experiences, and we have two beautiful kids. And so, in spite of the damage that has been done by the mistakes of the past, I have a very strong desire to learn what it was that caused us to grow apart 12 years ago. We can LEARN from our past mistakes, but only if we STOP COMMITTING them and focus on US and our family, excluding all others.

W: Doen't it mean
anything that I keep trying?

2long: It means a great deal to me that you love me enough to try. But exactly what do you expect to accomplish? And when? I honestly don't know. It seems you are trying to get me to accept that your relationship with Rat Meat is going to somehow be harmless to our marriage and family from now on, in spite of your history. That's ridiculous. The harm of your past affairs has been done, and can never be undone. It CAN BE forgiven, but the relationship must end, forever, in order for that to happen. Forgiveness is a GIFT, and we can CHOOSE to forgive each other for our mistakes. And I certainly know now that I've made more than my share of mistakes. Trust must be EARNED, and you haven't made the necessary effort so far to earn my trust in you. Your hotmail account, that you yourself said you created specifically for communicating with Rat Meat will do nothing to help me trust you. And you can’t expect to be able to rebuild your trust in ME, if your actions continue to make me feel suspicious of you. There is no need for you to handle communication with Rat Meat yourself in order to get this report finished. I WAS willing to wait until he was finished a couple of months ago, but that was before OMW deleted his files. Even that time waiting was difficult for me. But now that he's trying to entice you back into a relationship with him (remember you admitted that this is probably what he is doing now), it's sheer agony. I can't eat, I can't sleep, and I can't seem to do anything but make you feel hurt, even when I tell you I love you. You should hand the task of communicating with Rat Meat over to coworker right now. You can still get this report done. PLEASE, let’s help each other out here and save our family from a breakup.

No, there is no "trying." There's only a simple, though not an easy, choice for you to make. You can't expect me to help you get through withdrawal from Rat Meat if you don't get past the denial that this relationship is harmful to our two families every day that it continues. And we can't even begin the hard, but rewarding work it will take to rebuild our marriage until you've made it through withdrawal. And every contact you have from this point on will postpone the withdrawal process.

Please come back to me emotionally, and I will return home. I love you and I want us to spend the rest of our lives together. I truly enjoy the work we do together on our house. I actually believe that, since January, I've gotten an increasing thrill working on projects with you, even while I was hurt by your relationship with Rat Meat. I believe in you as a wife, as a mother, as a person, and as a scientist. I believe in your beautiful ambitions and goals for your research property. I marvel at what you've done for our nieces and nephew over the years. Look at the people they're becoming, in large part due to the time YOU chose to spend with them.

YOU made yourself the scientist you are today. Nobody else did. Not me, and certainly not Rat Meat. You deserve to be as proud as I am of your accomplishments as a scientist.

I love you more than you can know, and I truly look forward to the opportunity for us to make the future of our marriage the best it can possibly be.

Love, 2long

Man. No "traffic" tonight?

Here's a shorter version of the above.

W: I agree you do need time, time to think about what love is, it is not
owning , it is not having, it is shareing, it is caring, it is looking past the
faults because we all have them, and trying to help make each other be
better, each life a little easier, happier, kinder it is excepting each other
for what we are, and the moments shared, they do not fade or end, but
do change...

2long: I do know what love is. And I love YOU, faults and all, even knowing what I now know about your life. I want to feel safe sharing everything about me with you from now on, and I want you to feel safe sharing your innermost feelings and ambitions with me. All the good stuff, all the bad stuff, ALL OF IT.

W: of late the moment together are almost all filled with pain
and hurt, and fear not loving.

2long: And why is this? For me, it’s because you love two people at the same time that I hurt as much as I do. I don't agree that fear has replaced my love for you. When I say I love you, I mean it.

W: So you ask me to share my thought withyou and so I do and all they
seem to do is hurt you yes I'm very trone, each of you have wonderful
things to give...

2long: But Rat Meat has given himself to OMW and they have a family together. He needs to GET BACK to his own family, exclusively and WITHOUT YOU. Have either of you thought about how the breakup of his family has affected them? Have you thought about how hard it will be for them to rebuild their trust in him if you continue to correspond with him in any way? I know how horrible this feels EVERY DAY.

W: I hate that I would ever have to choose.

2long: I'm sorry you are stuck on this, but there is absolutely no question that you DO have to choose. If you choose Rat Meat, your relationship will destroy both our families. If you choose our family, even his might be able to reconcile. If you choose neither, then you will still break up our family.

in spite of the damage that has been done by the mistakes of the past, I have a very strong desire to learn what it was that caused us to grow apart 12 years ago. We can LEARN from our past mistakes, but only if we STOP COMMITTING them and focus on US and our family, excluding all others.

W: Doen't it mean
anything that I keep trying?

2long: It means a great deal to me that you love me enough to try. But exactly what do you expect to accomplish? And when? I honestly don't know. It seems you are trying to get me to accept that your relationship with Rat Meat is going to somehow be harmless to our marriage and family from now on, in spite of your history. That's ridiculous. I CAN forgive, but the relationship with Rat Meat must end, forever. Similarly, I hope that someday you can forgive ME, for being withdrawn from you 12 years ago and during your affair. Forgiveness is a GIFT, and we can CHOOSE to forgive each other for our mistakes. Trust must be EARNED, and you haven't made the necessary effort so far to earn my trust in you. Your hotmail account will do nothing to help me trust you. And you can’t expect to be able to rebuild your trust in ME, if your actions continue to make me feel suspicious of you.

There is no need for you to personally handle communication with Rat Meat yourself in order to get this report finished. You should hand the task of communicating with Rat Meat over to coworker right now. PLEASE, let’s help each other out here and save our family from a breakup.

There is no "trying.” Only a choice. Choose to end this relationship with Rat Meat and let me help you get through withdrawal.

Please come back to me emotionally, and I will return home. I love you and I want us to spend the rest of our lives together. I truly enjoy the work we do together on our house. I believe in you as a wife, as a mother, as a person, and as a scientist. I believe in your beautiful ambitions and goals for your research property. I marvel at what you've done for our nieces and nephew over the years. Look at the people they're becoming, in large part due to the time YOU chose to spend with them.

YOU made yourself the scientist you are today. Nobody else did. Not me, and certainly not Rat Meat. You deserve to be as proud as I am of your accomplishments as a scientist.

I love you more than you know, and I truly look forward to the opportunity for us to make the future of our marriage the best it can possibly be.

Love, 2long

<small>[ July 24, 2002, 11:36 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

2long..I'm not up much longer, but just a quick one before I go to bed.

You're wife is not stupid. She knows what consequences her actions have added to why you left. She's baiting you...and even if she is just doing it subconciously...THAT IS THE POINT of not continuing the discussion. As long as you write back, she has you to help her avoid fighting with HERSELF.

Remember...do it DIFFERENTLY than you've done it in the past.

Remember...she won't get it if YOU DON'T GET IT.

My opinion would be to wait until you have your appt with Steve, and go with his suggestions. Until that point, you've ALREADY told her that isnt' why you left and you've ALREADY outlined your future plans. She's still trying to keep this on common ground.

I wish I could open your eyes to see how NECESSARY this is...and what a GOOD THING it is. Leave her to stew in her own juices...it's the ONLY way it will ever get solved. You may have the answers...but they're in YOUR language...she's got to find them all on her own.

H4F:

I am glad you posted. I was starting to feel utter despair again, realizing some of what you said. W took kids to dinner, since my D is leaving tomorrow. I know my D understands my point of view on this, and she agrees with it, but it still hurt to know that my W had time with the kids and I didn't, and she and my son are dropping my D off at the airport tomorrow.

I hurt now because I spent so many hours of my day today fretting over this, and it feels like I may have wasted my time. I don't know.

You people may be right after all. I guess I just wanted to believe that my W was somehow different from other WSs. Stupid me, I guess.

I even wasted time trying to get caught up on work, and so didn't go by the bookstore like Pepper hypnotized me to do.

2depressed.

I'm going to go ahead and make another, shorter version of the above, based on JL's edits of SC's plan B letter, then stare at my eyelids.

Gawd, I hope I have the energy to continue. I don't fee like I do. And I guess my own stubborn insistence on DOING SOMETHING about my M by focusing on IT is probably going to have to evolve, by trial and error, into what everybody tells me I MUST do anyway.

Damned scientist, I guess. Have to learn by my own mistakes, even when I've been shown that others have already made them for me...

W: I agree you do need time, time to think about what love is, it is not
owning , it is not having, it is shareing, it is caring, it is looking past the
faults because we all have them, and trying to help make each other be
better, each life a little easier, happier, kinder it is excepting each other
for what we are, and the moments shared, they do not fade or end, but
do change...

2long: I do know what love is. And I love YOU, faults and all, even knowing what I now know about your life. I want YOU to feel safe sharing everything about yourself with me from now on, and I want to feel safe sharing my innermost feelings with you. All the good stuff, all the bad stuff, ALL OF IT.

W: of late the moment together are almost all filled with pain
and hurt, and fear not loving.

2long: For me, this is because you love two people at the same time. I don't agree that fear has replaced my love for you. When I say I love you, I mean it. I hope that you will understand that.

W: So you ask me to share my thought withyou and so I do and all they
seem to do is hurt you yes I'm very trone, each of you have wonderful
things to give...

2long: Rat Meat has given himself to his wife and they have a family together. He needs to return to his family, exclusively.

W: I hate that I would ever have to choose.

2long: I realize this is difficult for you, but there is absolutely no question that you DO have to choose.

Both of us have made some serious mistakes in the past, but I have a very strong desire to learn from them and rebuild our marriage. We can only learn from our mistakes by improving our communication and by focusing on US and our family, excluding all others.
W: Doen't it mean
anything that I keep trying?

2long: It means a great deal to me that you love me enough to keep trying. I am trying to deal with issues of my own so that we can be close again. You mean so much to me.

Please hand the task of communicating with Rat Meat over to coworker. Don't make me wait any longer, please. It hurts too much.

W, I love you and I want us to spend the rest of our lives together. I truly enjoy the work we do together on our house. I believe in you as a wife, as a mother, as a person, and as a scientist. I believe in your beautiful ambitions and goals for your research property. I marvel at what you've done for our kids, and our nieces and nephew over the years. Look at the people they're becoming, in large part due to the time YOU chose to spend with them.
YOU made yourself the scientist you are today. Nobody else did. Not me, not Rat Meat. You deserve to be as proud as I am of your accomplishments as a scientist.

I love you more than you know. Let's make the future of our marriage the best it can possibly be. Let's do it for us, our children, and any grandchildren we may be lucky enough to have.

All my love, forever please.
2long

<small>[ July 25, 2002, 12:24 AM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

And now, for a completely sarcastic version. Because I NEED to do something to get out of this despair.

W: I agree you do need time, time to think about what love is, it is not
owning , it is not having, it is shareing, it is caring, it is looking past the
faults because we all have them, and trying to help make each other be
better, each life a little easier, happier, kinder it is excepting each other
for what we are, and the moments shared, they do not fade or end, but
do change...

2long: WTF did you just say?

W: of late the moment together are almost all filled with pain
and hurt, and fear not loving.

2long: That's because you took a chainsaw, ripped my chest wide flat open with it, cut out my still-beating heart with your bare hands and a dull putty knife, held it up, and now you're expecting me stand here quietly and LOOK at it!!!

W: So you ask me to share my thought withyou and so I do and all they
seem to do is hurt you yes I'm very trone, each of you have wonderful
things to give...

2long: Could Rat Meat step up and give his life??? I'd take it!! And THEN, I could FORGIVE him. Maybe even LOVE him! You still have that chainsaw?

W: I hate that I would ever have to choose.

2long: $h!t, b****!!! I hate making choices, too!! Worst part about making choices is you have to THINK!! Don't you just HATE it when that happens?

W: Doen't it mean
anything that I keep trying?

2long: Not a gawd damned thing!! I try all the time!!! But, I'm so inept, I seldom get anywhere. Why should you be different? Remember the saying: "If you honestly believe that you can compensate for a lack of skill by doubling your efforts, then there's no limit to what you can't do!"

"You are a fluke of the universe, you have no right to be here, and whether you can hear it or not the universe is laughing behind your back"
-2long

I were going to post something good in response here, but dang, my eyes hurt after reading 36 pages on the 'puter! Maybe tomorrow.. lol

I just hate to see this though, it looks to me that your WS is playing the same game my WS used to do, and it sure hurts..

That, "you both have so much to offer" nonsense will sure stick with me for a long time.

It also sounds like she's been stuck like that for a long time? Its not good, you did a good thing on moving out..

Somehow, she needs to realize she's doing a destructive thing.

Hope you figure out what to do 2long! I need some sleep after this read.. my brain is hurting.. lol

Sorry Snowmane. I don't think I've seen you before. I sure hope you're here under happier circumstances than many of us, but it doesn't sound like it.

Thanks for reading all that stuff!

Get a good night's sleep. Look forward to your posts in future!

Shouldn't you be in bed yet??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

You are getting sleepy... sleepy... slee... zzzzzz.

(I'm on the West Coast, so it's not quite past my bedtime.)

Okay, I'll join in on the vent-fest - for venting purposes only...

WW: I'm still fighting. I'm still trying.

JR: Oh really? Who are you fighting, and how are you actually trying?

Are you trying to work on our M? What's the proof of that?

Are you trying to delay your wonderous "decision" you've been preparing carefully now for nearly a year?

Are you trying to make life miserable for as many people as possible?

Are you trying to waste all of our money on rent for 2 places?

Are you trying to @#$% with OM's head?

Are you trying to convince your family that "we've just grown apart"?

Are you trying to sell yourself on the concept that you somehow did fight / try on the M, but I "just didn't cooperate" these past months??!!??

Are you trying to waste precious time that could have been spent building a wonderful M, having babies and being happy?

Are you trying to believe you can somehow escape this unscathed by leaving your M?

Are you trying to apply MB-based principles in your R's?

Are you trying to be honest? open? compassionate? understanding? forgiving?

Are you trying to slowly destroy my love for you, in the most insidious way possible?

"Ooh, a storm is threatening my very life today
If I don't get some shelter, oh yeah I'm gonna fade away"