Well, can't sleep so I'm still trolling around.. =p Hate nights like theese!

My story is not too dissimilar from your own, albeit with the difference of us two managing to see the end of the affair (I think) and we're working on the marriage (I hope).

I always worry about there being more lies lurking around the corner though.. =o

Ok, sleep soon.. =)

Hi J.R.!

No, I'm in the same Time zone, just a tad closer to the equator than you (LA, 'City of the fallen angel')

Thanks for the vent. I think I oughta just stay up all night and vent. Soothes what's left of the soles (and I do mean the soles of them Converse All-Stars).

Dang. I wish this weren't happening! You know what's worse than wallowing in my own self-pity? Thinking that my W, who is still a wonderful person even if she can't see it, may just be depressed herself, and she's just as alone in our bed, as I am on the hideabed in the guest house. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> -I still love her. Why can't she let me love her? <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Another attempt to lift myself out of despair:

I just remembered these lyrics to a song by Eric Anderson, on an album I got for Christmas when my W and I were newlyweds. Good stuff (and it bring back fond memories of us holding each other in the tiny living room we had at the time):

From "Blue River" by Eric Anderson:

"Young Rob stands, with his axe in hand
Believin' that the crops are in.
Firewood stacked ten by ten
For the Wife, the folks, the kids
And all of the kin....
...and a friend..."

Was a cute song. Joni Mitchell sang backup. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

2long,

I am here, watching you vent, and getting out the anger is really good for you. One of the stages we all must go through, and coupled with impatience for things to change, anger can be a most destructive force. But I read somewhere that anger is the facade that fear lurks behind. And if it is not expressed, it can blow up. So kudos for letting it out on the board.

You are afraid because you are dealing with this in ways you have not done before.....well if YOU are afraid, how do you think your W feels???? She is worried that the 'usual' tactics have not brought you running back, believe me. She keeps trying to reel you in, but you aren't falling for it this time. She KNOWS how much you love her, 2long, and is using that knowledge to get her way.

I went through many, many times thinking if I could just say this or that to my stbx, that he would see the light and come home to me.......realise that I was all he ever wanted, and would love me the way I should be loved. I thought that the power of our past love would somehow touch him again, if ONLY I could think of the right thing to say.

I actually thought, and still do, that he was having a mid-life crisis, and I wanted to be there to help him through it. I wanted him to realise that I would forgive him, all he had to do was give her up and come home and all would be well.

But before he left, we had many talks about what happened to us, and he was just so closed to any discussion on working on our marriage. He had built a giant wall around the part of his brain that makes people devoted to their marriages, and he shut me out. No matter what I said he DID NOT LISTEN. He LOOKED like he did, and SAID that he did, but did it get into his head? No. Why not? Because he wouldn't let it. And here is the thing....he knew me so well he knew exactly what i would do or say and be prepared for it...make the answers up in advance....he was well prepared. So I changed tack when I went to Plan B, and boy did I get a reaction (too long to go into here, but doing something DIFFERENT sure got his attention!)

Now your wife is doing that to you...she has shown this with her ignoring reference to Rat Meat - message to 2long "I am not discussing that because I am afraid you will talk me out of what I want." And, she is trying old tactics because she thinks she knows how you are going to react. She is using tactics you allowed her to use in the past.

WS's, YOURS included are SUPREMELY selfish creatures, and will do ANYTHING (including using our own past behaviours) to get their way until THEY see that it is wrong.

The only thing you can do is wait, plan A or B the best you can, and look after YOU. Play the game differently than you have before, and watch what happens. She has never had to think she could lose YOU before.....

love and light,

Jacky

PS, GO TO BED!!!!

Hay, have you heard Nik Kershaw ever? Good stuff, esp late at nite.. =p

"By a tree at a river there is a hole in the ground, where a wise man in vain walks around and around, in his mind he's a beacon in the veil of the night, and he'll never ever fight over you."

Nina too:

Thank you.

I think I'm going to need this kind of support for a while to come. At this point in time, I just can't imagine letting go of US. Maybe I just can't 'get it' regarding the letting go part of the healing that needs to happen.

I just posted to c++guy's thread about my own first experiences with my W in 1974. That got me crying again. DAMN. How do things EVER get this insane??? Life SHOULDN'T be LIKE this!!! We had so much to look forward to then. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Now, I guess we've lived them, and the excitement has faded away. I never thought the love would fade, though. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Snow:

No, I don't think I have. Sounds like interesting stuff, though!!!

I should think of some more of my favorites, and post them!

Love doesn't ever fade away really, does it?

I think it just goes through phases, evolves, de-evolves and changes. Sometimes people miss the first phase of it, and fail to reach the later stages of love, their loss imho..

I too think that alot of people confuse sexual attraction with love, and its only getting more common in our modernized high paced world..

What I wouldn't give for living in a cabin in the middle of nowhere with no modern things around at all. =p

Okay. That does it.

I haven't worked on that Model A in over 10 years. Got it when I was in high school.

I've decided: I'm going to FINISH the restoration THIS YEAR. Screw the house!!!!

Something for you is always a good idea.

The letting go is the hardest thing, and I thought I had done it a few times...but then along would come those sweet early memories, and wham! I would be back where I started. I don't know when I actually DID let go, but I know I have now. It happens gradually, so you needn't think there is any hurry <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

Now detaching is something you are doing right now, and that is a good thing, because while you feel bad, it does protect you from those hurtful comments, and having to deal with a person that is there with you in body only. That was the most painful thing for me after he said he was leaving; he did not want to be there, and it was written all over his face. I felt MUCH better away from that, though I am not saying that it did not hurt.

I think in order to function and move ahead, we must think about the fact that the marriages we had will never be the same again - indeed, like mine, may not survive. I know I could never take back the stranger my husband has become, but while he has changed, so have I...for the better I hope.

Losing the one you love is terrifying at the beginning, as you know 2long. But you are showing things in yourself you probably didn't realise you had - devotion, strength, resilience and preserverance. And most of all, the one we all struggle with - PATIENCE.

You are in a better position than I ever was in, because my stbx wouldn't admit he had an OW waiting in the wings, so I had to try and work on it without the facts. Also, she is still in communication with you (okay, but you are NOT to hit the keyboard, even so). My stbx did not even call us for something like three weeks. She is riled - my stbx didn't react to a thing I said - he just didn't care enough. These are PLUSSES for you. Keep that hope!!!

Now, will you please try to get to bed????

Sending sleepy little vibes to 2long's eyelids,

Jacky

2L;

I believe a little explanation is in order here. You feel that your W does not understand the real reason you left. This is right and wrong, at the same time.

On one level, she understands perfectly. She knows what she's done is wrong, hurtful to you and your M, your children, and that it must end.

BUT, for many years she has told herself over and over again the myriad reasons why her doing this is OK. Some of them perhaps true, most of them plain old self-justifying garbage.

The point is, she has convinced herself, in her fog and fantasy world, that it IS ok, that it IS NOT hurtful or damaging, that she deserves this, that you should understand and accept this.

And so, in her delusion, wavering between reality and fantasy, she chooses to ignore your words and actions, avoid the real issue, defelct the hard questions. Because she knows, deep inside, that what she is doing is wrong and bad. But acknowledging that would mean destroying this house of cards she has so carefully built over the years, and she cannot bear that, she cannot face herself if it turns out that what she has told herself for so long turns out to be false.

She's holding onto that as hard and as long as she can. Your departure forces her to re-evaluate, think, ponder, review...and she DOES NOT want to do that (deep inside she knows) does not want to face that. And she's almost being forced to, so she's fighting back any way she can.

So don't confuse her non-acknowledgement of your words with ignorance, it is not ignorance. It is simply the last stand of a zealot who is about to discover that what she's been fighting for all these years is really what it is; a fragile, unreal, house of cards. It is the ultimate defeat; a defeat of the ideological foundation upon which she has fought for so long. And she will not give up that battle easily, she will fight to the end.

And in the end, you will have to be there to pick up the pieces. But you know what? because of your words and actions all of these hard, painful months, she ALSO knows, somewhere deep inside, that you WILL be there to help her pick up the pieces. And that, ultimately, is what will allow her to admit her hollow ideological foundation, and choose to return to you.

Be brave, be strong, have faith. It'll take time, but you will get there.

A bit later on today, I too will have to deal my dear W a severe blow to her hollow ideological foundation, and I too will have to face the same responses...but I too know that in the end, she will also know that I will be there to help her pick up the pieces, and I have faith that she, too, may perhaps also see it.

<small>[ July 25, 2002, 09:07 AM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

Nina Too, SC:

Thanks for all your insights. You guys are right. This is as hard for her as it is for me, maybe harder because she's lived in it for so long.

I did end up sending a version of my reply that I posted here on the previous page (NOT the sarcastic one, though I was tempted!!). I WILL have to read emails this morning, as I'm dealing with a deadline through email, but I'm going to try NOT to read any reply from her, if there is any, until this afternoon if I can refrain.

Well said, SC!

That's so true of most if not all A's... a house of cards... reality is like a gust of wind... for different people, the amount of wind required is different to bring it down. It's hard to know beforehand... for some WS, they'll hang onto it literally forever. But it's still a house of cards... It's their free-will choice to choose a house of cards over a real, solid, wonderful structure built with hard work, honesty and REALITY.

Passionate Marriage

Here are the chapter titles .... to spur you on!

>Nobody's ready for marriage - Marriage makes you ready for marriage
>Differentiation: Developing a self-in-relation
>Your sexual potential : Electric Sex !
>Intimacy is not for the faint of heart
>Sexual desire : Who wants to want?
>Hugging till relaxed
>Love and foreplay aren't blind, unless you insist on it
>Eyes open orgasm: making contact during sex
>Where's your head during sex? Mental demensions of sexual experiences
>F_ing, doing, and being done. It isn't what you do , it's the way you do it
>Two-choice dilemmas and normal marital sadism
>Hold on to yourself : Your crucible survival guide
>Couples in the crucible : Reaching critical mass
>Love sex and death

Pepper
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

(((((((((((Hugs)))))))))))))

Be strong 2long. I know this is hard, finding out your WS is something else than what you thought they were is hard.

Hang in there, keep us posted, and take care of yourself please!

2long,

If you find that it is too difficult for you too refrain from reading/responding to your WS's email (if she sends one), this idea might be something that could satisfy your need to email her back WHILE AT THE SAME TIME could allow you to focus on your responsibilities and job priorities.

My idea is that if you are unable to refrain from obsessing and/or ABSOLUTELY will not be able to get your work done (or be able to fulfill other obligations that are important to you) unless you respond, keep it very simple---something like, I am in the middle of something and will read any emails from you later (or this evening, tomorrow, etc).

I will be very interested in MBers opinions about whether this would be a good idea or a bad one.

I have learned sooooo much from this thread and Spacecase's thread and it has helped me get through a difficult time in better ways this time. Thank you for sharing your turmoil and thank you to all the MBers who share their experience and wisdom!

YA:

I'm working on just not being so anxious to respond. I did check my email, and there wasn't any reply from her. I saw that she got my message about an hour ago, though. She probably read it, shut her computer down, and is trying not to think about it.

She and my son will be taking my D to the airport this evening. I won't be going. I did get to talk to both of them last night, but no details because my son doesn't yet know about the A. It was particularly nice talking to my D again. We will correspond regularly while she's in England.

Well, you answered her questions, if she doesn't want to see them 2bad.

((hugs))

I am sorry things are going this way. I am glad your daughter will keep in touch, and you can all be open with each other. I wish my dad had been like that with me too.

Hang in there!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> W: of late the moment together are almost all filled with pain
and hurt, and fear not loving.

2long: That's because you took a chainsaw, ripped my chest wide flat open with it, cut out my still-beating heart with your bare hands and a dull putty knife, held it up, and now you're expecting me stand here quietly and LOOK at it!!!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I actually like this one a lot better than your non-sarcastic one. This may seem weird, but it strikes me as less judgemental, somehow. More emotionaly honest.

Your response posted 7/25 at 12:12 am seems like a good basis for a Plan B letter (except the response where I like the one above better) - lets her know you still love her and her continued R w/ Ratmeat causes you such pain that you cannot continue. S**t or get off the pot time. You just have to understand that when you give her a choice, the one she takes may not be the one you hope for.

The other coment I have is about how you and SC and others contend she knows what she is doing, why you left, etc. I think that is a DJ and false. Most that have been saying that are BS's and do not really know how the mind of a WS works. I don't either, but I am trying to learn. What I am learning is that they may know their behavior is wrong, but not REALLY know why. My xWS confessed to me out of the blue after hearing a sermon that led her to repent of her actions. She had asked God for forgiveness many times, to little effect. Once she truly turned away ("repent" means to turn away from - as in 180 degrees, for those of you who are not Biblically literate) from the affair, she made an appointment with me to spend some time together later that week, which is when she told me. The first thing out of her mouth was that she had been an unfaithful wife and that I could do with her what I wanted - throw her out, etc., and she was not worthy to be my wife. Most of what she said after that and before I responded was untrue, but she was not trying to be untruthful. She had lied to herself so much that she no longer recognized the truth. Among the lies: It was not about sex. It was not about him. It was not about me. Now, there is some truth in those statements, and my initial reaction was not to try and understand what that truth was. That came with time reading SAA and other stuff on this web site. Questioning her about it at that time would not have done any good, because she had no clue about the truth underneath those false statements. She really thought they were true, period. She coped with the affair by compartmentalizing her life and keeping busy so she would not have to think about it. Sound familiar? This is why you CANNOT argue your wife out of this, you can only tell her what behavior you can or cannot tolerate. Trying to change her thinking is not going to work because most of the time, she is not thinking about it, and when she is, she is twisting her thinking to support the way she feels. Trying to change her thinking becomes an attempt to tell her her feelings are wrong. It feels like a DJ.

We are 9 months into a good recovery, and there are still things my wife cannot see. I don't know that she ever will, either. I am finally learning that I cannot make her see them, either. It is a leasson I am reluctant to learn, but it seems to be the truth. So, Pepperband's quote from the Passionate Marriage was helpful.

<small>[ July 25, 2002, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

john39:

You put into words a lot of what I've been thinking of late. It was very frustrating being with my W knowing that most of what she said to me (deeper than dinner plans, that is) didn't make any sense and couldn't really give me a clue as to what she was really thinking/facing. I suppose I may not really know soon what she thought of my email to her, but I'll bet she read the whole thing and something is happening in that head of hers. I don't know what the outcome will be, whether she'll start to wake up, stay put, go to Rat Meat, or go off by herself, but I really, really did need to say what I said. We weren't getting across to each other verbally. This email tells her what I'm doing and why, without having me committed to a plan B before I've talked to Steve about it. And, like SS said, I don't think it would have been a good idea for me to stop contact with her BEFORE I go to plan B.

I'm still hopeful that some of this will spark a dialog between us through email, so that we can see where/if we can make any progress while we're apart. Definitely, it will become more apparent with time that SF isn't my most important EN with her - it falls down the list after honesty and affection. She may be more able to be honest with me via email than face to face, if for some reason she finds me intimidating or judgemental when we're talking. She may even start to recognize the sincerity of my affection for her, when she realizes that the ILYs don't come with SF strings attached.

I guess only time will tell.