In some pretty thought-provoking discussions I've had lately with my WH (working on those communication skills), my H had quite a spin on an idea I viewed quite differently.
Basically, my H thinks that he, as my spouse, shouldn't be EVERYTHING to me nor I to him. This leaves a big whole for others to play significant roles.
And while of course the big issue of sexual fidelity is one that we've had problems with, H seems to think it's okay to have friends who are meaningful in ways that I am not. I can accept that my H wants male friends, for example, but what if those friendships become more meaninful than his relationship with me?
I am not a control freak and am not trying to be H's one thought every minute of every day.
I guess this brings up the Harley issue of The Policy of Joint Agreement.
Say H has friends and spends time with those friends that I object to. What kind of negotiation can occur?
I am very interested in anyone's opinion on this topic.

Thanks.

I'd agree with your H that a spouse can't be "everything" for the other. The pressure would be immense.

However, I do think a spouse should be in one of the top 2 priority slots, in my world, God being #1. With children, at times they might slide right up there as well, but if the marriage is healthy, there are 2 of you to deal with the kids.

If your H has friends you do object to, you are right, he isn't making you a priority. A spouse's preferences should be a higher priority than a friend. Throughout life, you can have many, many friends, but hopefully <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> the number of spouses is pretty low.

If your spouse has difficulty meeting your emotional needs, there are times a friend can help meet that need. Specifically I'm thinking of conversation, recreational companionship. Like if my H doesn't like to talk, and it is a high EN for me, then friends can help balance that need without compromising my marriage. Of course some needs, like sex, perhaps financial support shouldn't be met by others! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Is your H spending the recommended 15 hours a week with you? (likely not) How much time does he spend with his friends? Are you included? Would you want to be?

My H likes sports. A lot of sports. He likes to play them, watch them, keep track of them. Sports aren't a particular interest of mine, but I go with & cheer, even scorekeep if needed, when he plays. I watch footbal with him, have become a fan of his favorite team, we take a long weekend in the fall and travel the 700 miles to go see a game.

Before when I didn't do this, it was a source of frustration to my H, now it is something that brings us together.

What do these friends of your H provide him? Is it something you could participate in? Accompany him?

My H & I do have separate interests, but if one of us is involved in something, we are now accustomed to POJA. And, neither of us are difficult about it. We want each other to enjoy life, as long as it doesn't cause marital discord or hurt feelings or loneliness.

Have you taken the Emotional Needs Questionnaire? Are you meeting your H's needs as well as you can? Is he meeting yours?

Friends should be a positive addition to your lives, not a source of friction.

Thanks for your insights, Lor, you brought up some very good points.

My H and I do very well together in several areas. We work together well at home, in the garden, doing projects around the house, even sharing responsibility for the kids (when he's home, which is only a few days a week). I think one of my H's ENs is communication, which is not that important to me. ( a real switch on the sexes there, I know)

My H's relationships with other men are not always acceptable to me. His infidelities have focused on men, not women. Even if the physical side of those stop (which he says they have) I am still immensely unhappy about the romantic/conversational nature of some of his friendships. A lot of this happens on the internet. And yet I know that at the root of this is a real need for male friendship. So it seems I have to allow some of this friendship time. Yet I always worry.

I realize my situation departs from the traditional affair we find here at MB. I have asked a time or two what people think about the chance of recovery from this dilemma with MB principles, and I get mixed reviews. Some think that unmet needs are unmet needs, and I somehow have to find a way to meet those needs (even though I can't since I'm not a man). Others think there is little hope for recovery, which I find too depressing.

Besides, we are in counseling now, which is a step in the right direction.

My real point in this thread, though, is still the idea of being the number one person in my spouse's life. (after God) I just don't know if it's possible.

thanks again for your input.

Asgood,
I looked back at my post, and y'know what? I didn't put a gender on "friends".

I don't have the same difficult situation as you, but my H's FOW is a co-worker. But like male friends for your H, female co-workers for my H, and this one in particular, if your marriage is to recover, your H has to be accountable for his friends.

And, since his betrayal is with men, it is his time with men that he has to be accountable for.

You, should still be his priority and if you are not comfortable, or included in your H's outings or time spent, then, it isn't all right.

My H's choice of friends & activities changed once he wanted to make our marriage work.

I have no idea what your recovery chances are. Mine were something like, "not gonna happen" after 7 separations and the A just not ending the 3-4 times he said it did AND that they continue to work together AND that I served the D papers finally after about 2 years. But, now we're 2+ years into recovery...so I'm not one to say "never".

I wish you the best.

Thanks, Lor. I guess betrayal is betrayal, plain and simple. I am very much encouraged by your success after so many false starts and even serving D papers!

One thing my C mentioned is the spiral nature of progress. Gradual up but cyclical downs. I suppose that can be the case here as well.

One thing H mentioned is that he doesn't want to feel like I'm looking over his shoulder. This flies in the face of some of Harley's principles, I think, and sometimes I would like to be able to call him on the spot and see if he's behaving (by this I mean building trust again), but H's not willing and resentful. And, quite frankly, if I have to spy on him to get him to be faithful, maybe I'm not so interested in our relationship anymore myself . . .

Of course all of this has been demoralizing in an intense way. We haven't had SF for 6 months now, and I'm not sure I could anyways. I worry about STD's of course but also I'm just not ready for intimacy.

Well, this is perhaps more than I wanted to say, but you have been kind.

Thanks.

Most WS's always talk about their "soul mates" or their "kindred spirits." I want that feeling, too. I've always felt that way with W despite problems. I'll give it time but if W can't get that feeling back w/ me that we're soul mates please tell me why should I settle for less?

Asgood:

I agree with your spouse. That comes from my own personal perspective, and I've always had a life outside of this M with my friends, education, job, and outside interests. But, that too can go overboard, and I think in some ways perhaps my H felt lost in that shuffle.

But, I agree 100% on sexual fidelity. MHO is that is one of the most important things that seal an intimate partnership, which is how I've always defined a marriage. Now, that's only BK speaking here... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I haven't pushed for the Policy of Joint Agreement, nor am I sure I will anytime soon. H and I are still on very shaky ground, and I may NEVER ask for it (at least that's how I see it now, and if I ever do, it may be retitled) because of the same problems my H has with "control." His MLC was/still is really severe. He became 180 degrees opposite of who he once was. I'm wresting with the idea of acceptance of accepting his outward appearances that he uses to demonstrate that right now, and seeing small but really tiny sparks of the interior of the real man that I know he is. (Close to kids, responsiblility, kindness... but trying NOT to interpret anything right now that may indicate that he may be reconsidering our marriage because he insists I "trap" him and "misinterpret" any sign of affection or kind word he says to me.)

So, I guess in any negotiations, my approach might include just being a good friend:

- Listen with an open mind. Using this rule: We have two ears and one mouth, use those organs in that proportion.
- No responses to any comment that might indicate a commitment on my part to anything he says. Perhaps indicate in a very polite, kind way that I was considering his suggestions or concerns.
- Perhaps ask him how he thought things would logically work out but not indicate any judgements or perceptions on my part.
- If a decision needs to be made, I might ask that we come back to the table later to discuss or make decisions after we both thought it through.
- As for opposite sex friends, H and I always had them due to our careers/professions. I've never been quite sure how to definitively handle this, but my personal rule is this: using a good physical distance (say 2-4' with men, but maintain good posture, eye contact during conversation while avoiding really sexually explicit conversations while not coming off as cold or rude or uninterested in the person), discussing all of my friends with my H during typical everyday conversations ("hey... did you hear that John won another award for X? I'm excited for him..."), and encouraging all of my friends to call me at home on hard line rather than cell unless absolutely necessary. More or less my rule was openness about my friends so that I didn't encourage secrecy. And, I guess not to "bash" or "judge" H's friends. (Although I blew that one BIG time with the A... between you me and the brick wall, the OW deserved it, but I realized I was also bashing H's judgement.)

Sum: I guess perhaps the friendships thing has to be discussed openly, but that you also need to take the leadership in this area by setting the example of what you expect???? Just a thought looking back on my own personal experiences.

Understand that these ideas could be tainted from my perspective <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I haven't been terribly successful with my H yet in ANY discussions or neogitations because both of our emotions got in the way and things would often get too heated. Hindsight is always 20/20, and these are approaches I am deciding to take at this point should H ever come out of his cave far enough to see that there is no dragon woman waiting at the entrance wanting to breathe fire in his face <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

It sounds like you and your H are well on the way with building the communications skills. I wish we were that far along. Right now, I'm just letting go as much as I can each day, posting here, working, trying to get some R&R with kids, cleaning closets, having lunch with friends... doing anything I can to ignore my email and any commmunications with H unless they are a matter of life or death or of physical care for our daughters. I don't care to communicate much with him right now because he's in such a confused state, although much more quiet now and from a distance, I can see that he's becoming slowly more rational (to me at least <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> ).

Good luck...