Last week some of you may remember a question I posted asking if you thought it was being to sneaky to send flowers to wife who recently betrayed me, and sign the card with the OM's name. We have recommented to each other and promissed total honesty. She promised if any contact was made by the OM she would tell me. However in the last few weeks, emotions have been eating me alive. Can I trust her? Could she still deceive me? that kind of thing. Anyways I thought if I could test her, I could get on with rebuilding without all these stupid questions that keep running through my mind. On my original post, asking should I do this, about half said yes and half said no. Today I made up my mind to do it...I went out and bought flowers and a card, and signed it with OM's name. But before I could deliver them the darnest thing happened! My heart changed, it's like God spoke to me and gave me peace about everything. So instead, I wrote her a love letter and put the flowers and letter in the bathroom for her to discover when she comes home from work tonight. The way I looked at it, this will surely build up more love units in her bank than by my silly little test. Thanks everybody for all the help. I'm starting to feel better now.

RWC, I glad you made the decision you did. Your W is a lucky woman!!!!<p>[This message has been edited by Betrayed (edited September 12, 1999).]

Good for you! I completely understand what you're going through. Whenever we discuss the affair, I have to try really hard to stop myself from asking H questions that I think I already know the answers to. And today I couldn't stop myself - I called OW to make sure she was at home, and not here in town for the weekend (she lives about 2 hours away). Luckily, she was home! I just pretended it was a wrong number. <P>It's so hard to rebuild that trust once it's been broken. But I know that it will just take time and both of us working on our marriage.<BR>

RWC....<P>I can't wait to hear how your wife reacts to the nice surprise....don't forget to update us!

Mmmm... I have one thing to say.<P>Was it God opening up your eyes and changing you?<P>Or was it simply a case of it not registering in your mind until the point where you actually went to send it... and that realisation made you see things differently?<P>Most people "think" about doing things right up until the point it becomes a reality before certain parts of the brain kick in.<P>Not wishing to offend or "rock the boat"... just wanting to make sure all possibilities are thought of.

A wise decision RWC, not only you deposited love units, but avoided a complete withdrawl of all the love units you have deposited lately in case when she found out, no matter how understanding she is.<BR>Trust comes from within, - granted: it should be earned, but there are other ways.<BR>I am the betrayed, but if someone pulled that trick on me, I'm not sure I would react in a positive way, no matter how inocent I was.<BR>I'm glad you stopped on time.<BR>Take care<BR>Kat<P>------------------<BR>Each and everyone of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought, and the gift of understanding.

Kat? <P>I am curious as to why you would get upset if your partner pulled this trick on you?<P>After all, you were the one to "destroy" the trust in the first place and so if your partner needed this particular way in order to restore his trust in you why on earth would you get upset at him doing it?<P>Please dont take this the wrong way but it isn't as if you have a moral high ground to stand on in telling him it is deceiptful or sneaky considering you are in a glass house yourself. Its not as if you can say "Its unfair you doing that to me" considering you did something unfair first.<P>Now I am not saying that two wrongs make a right... my parents always threw that nasty one at me... but one wrong and one right dont make a right either!!!<P>Bottom line is a wrong was done in the first place and you have a decision... to give whatever your partner needs to feel safe and secure in trusting you... or to be selfish and only allow them what they need providing it doesn't put you too far out of your own circle of comfort.<P>It may sound cruel but the answer might actually ly in whether the person is truely remorseful for having the affair in the first place... if they are then part of them at least should feel they "deserve" to be tested... if they get angry would it not be a sign that for some reason they think its ok to abuse the trust of their partner and NOT have their own used?<P>Just thought of something to add...<P>Criminals believe that even though they violated the rights of their victims they DESERVE to have their own rights respected... I think this way of thinking is very similar but I disagree... someone who has violated another human beings rights should be very lucky if their own rights are kept in place in my opinion.<P>If anyone has a valid reason why someone should keep their rights when not respecting others I would be glad to hear it.<p>[This message has been edited by LostSoul (edited September 12, 1999).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If anyone has a valid reason why someone should keep their rights when not respecting others I would be glad to hear it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>How about morals, ethics, doing what’s right?<P>Someone screws up & we are supposed to hold it over their head forever! Most of the betrayed here are willing to forgive as long as the spouse admits they are actually doing something wrong.<P>You are absolutely correct in that someone who violates someone elses rights is lucky to have their own rights respected. But we live in an ethical society. Go to some foreign countries & the accused gets absolutely NO RIGHTS whatsoever.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A> <BR>

Chris,<P>If this were an ideal world I would agree with you that ethics, morals and doing what is right are good reasons to allow rights to those who do not allow them of others...<P>but this isn't an ideal world.<P>I am the most ethical, moral, and responsible person and have been told so by many friends... but these things only work when EVERYONE thinks that way.<P>Imagine this :<P>Criminal : Violates anothers rights and kills<BR>Us : Forgive him because he has rights<BR>Criminal : Does it again<BR>Us : Forgive him<BR>Criminal : Does it again infront of us<BR>Us : Forgive him<BR>Criminal : Knows he will _always_ have rights<BR> even though he violates others<P>What has he learned? He has learned that no matter WHAT he does he will be given that which he takes the most of, he is a predator and he plays OUTSIDE the rules of our moral and ethical society.<P>We can play by those rules and for everyone else who plays by those rules we come to a harmony... but the second someone realises they dont HAVE to play by those rules the only people to suffer are the righteous and just while these other people continue to do whatever they like while living safe in the knowledge they can have what others cannot.<P>Would you stand there and allow someone to kill your partner? Or would you defend yourself and protect them? If you killed someone as a result have you not violated their rights in doing so? Or are you now justifying doing it? A moral person in this situation would stand by and allow the criminal to kill their loved ones because it would be unethical to take his life and violate his rights regardless of the fact he is doing that same thing.<P>Now I am not condoning we turn all of this around but I am saying that the world doesn't work when one side feels they can do something and not have it done to them...<P>if only everyone thought about how it would feel if they were on the receiving end before being on the giving end none of this would happen.<P>

Oops, just lost my post. But it was such fun, I'll do it again <BR>Lost soul, I'll try to satisfy your curiosity as much as I can.<BR>To begin with you want my answer to be in the form of the betrayer, so since I don't have that experience, I apologize to all the betrayers in the board in case I'm assuming something completely different from the reality.<BR>Here goes. The parameters are I'm the betrayer and I'm aware I made a mistake ( a big one ). I am trying to rebuild my marriage and to make it better.<BR>In that case, I would do my best to accept any honest ways my spouse would find necessary to rebuild trust. However, since we're both working on our marriage, I would give honesty and expect honesty ( leap of faith on my side too, I think). "start fresh" comes to mind.Make sure that past mistakes are not repeated by any of us. In that context, an action like what RWC was considering would disapoint me ( not make me angry ), since it would defeat what we both were trying to achieve.<P>If I was the betrayer, and remorsefull, I would have to start by accepting responsability for what I've done. from there two things could happen:<BR>1. My spouse would not deal with my deception, he would not want anything else to do with me, the marriage would be dissolved and case closed.<P>2. My spouse would decide to give me and our marriage a chance. Would accept to let me prove that I could redeem myself. And would work with me towards the goal of rebuilding and strenghtneing our marriage.<BR>I would have no input in any of those decisions, they would have to be completely up to my spouse. ANd I would have to accept his choice.<P>If number one was chosen, as I said, case was closed. I would have to respect that.<P>If number two was the path chosen, then I would expect not to have what I had done hanging over my head forever.<BR>I made a mistake. Recognized it as such. I am remorsefull and doing whatever I can to redeem myself. I'm giving my spouse all I can so he can restore trust. In this case, yes. I think I should be able to expect honesty. If my spouse needs to use that kind of subterfuge to restore his trust, instead of talking with me about any insecurities or doubts he might be having, then obviously we still have a problem. And the idea of rebuilding is to solve the problem, not add to it.<BR>I don't think that willingness to be tested does necessarily show I'm remoseful. I understand your idea : "retribution", but there are many ways to offer retribution without compromising what we're trying to achieve. If the marriage is to survive after the affair, it is important that there is no abuse of trust, or anything else from any of the sides in this equation. What happened is not supposed to be used as an excuse to act wrongly ourselves.<BR>This discussion reminds me of what happens many times with me at work:<BR>I'm getting a student that already built a reputation ( usually in behaviour ) in the previous years. I know a lot about this student, specially all the wrong choices he makes. What should I do?<BR>Myself - and many others I'm glad I can add - start fresh with him. Completely put aside all I heard about him. Treat him with the same respect as allthe others, give him the same choices.<BR>And do you know what? I rarely have a failure, unless there's much more behind the problem. When you expect the best from people, even after they made mistakes, you usually get the best from people.<BR>I have to agree with you that after violating someone's rights, I'll be lucky to have any myself. But in that case, why rebuild? Maybe rebuild shouldn't be considered an option if you feel that strongly about it.<BR>I actually believe in the "2 wrongs don't make a right" thing. If I feel you did something wrong, does that give me the right to do something wrong in return? Why? WOUldn't I be putting myself at your level, which I disagree with in the first place?<BR>Regarding your last paragraph, I'm, afraid I don't see it like that. We're working under the hypothesis that I'm working on the marriage, so the "not respecting others" statement doesn't apply anymore. It's part of the mistake I made ( past tense ) not of what we're working for our present or future.<BR>I did learn a lesson. I could - as my H the betrayer said to a friend, after his affair - never have the chance of working on my marriage. If that is important to me, it's enough to prevent me from doing it again. Specially since both of us will be working really hard to make this relationship stronger and better.<P> That's all for now. I'm a bit tired ( yesterday was my birthday, and my h, did his best to help me restore my trust, by proving me that what happened last birthday was just part of the whole mistake. This year we did celebrate with family and friends. Actually got home a bit late last night)<P>ANyway, I enjoyed this discussion. <BR>Do take care<BR>Kat<P>------------------<BR>Each and everyone of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought, and the gift of understanding.<p>[This message has been edited by Kat1 (edited September 13, 1999).]

RWC, I'm also glad you made the decision to give her the flowers from you. I recently decided to test my H by setting up a false e-mail address and sending him an e-mail asking if he wanted someone to talk to and see if he would respond to me even though he didn't know who I was (just another woman on the internet). I sent the email then had a change of heart, went into his mail before he could get the message and deleted it. I decided it would do nothing but hurt me more if he did respond and I have enough stuff to hurt me without adding to it on my end. Sometimes you just need to think about yourself instead of "catching" the betrayer in something else. Bless you for being a good husband. It helps to renew my faith that maybe there are good "men" out there.

RWC, you did the right thing. Testing your spouse the way you proposed broke the vow of honesty. If however your spouse had already agreed to being tested without limits, then your test, while not foolproof, would be acceptable within those bounds of honesty. Keep up the good thoughts!

I am so glad you didn't do that. She is a very lucky woman to have a h that loves her that much. <P>------------------<BR>You are in my thoughts and prayers.<BR>* Viki

Thanks everyone for the input. I never dreamed I would be in the situation I'm in now. If you knew my wife you would know she just isn't the kind of person that could be deceiving. So I never thought about it. When D-day came I was blasted right off the planet. I never knew pain could be that strong. Although we have both recommitted to each other, negative emotions keep popping up. I know she wouldn't deceive me now for her own gain, but I couldn't be for sure if she was keeping her feelings for him to herself because she didn't want to see me suffer anymore. I would rather have honesty at any cost, than to be kept in the dark, no matter what the subject was. I ask all of you to forgive me for my sneaky idea, it wasn't right, but I am a problem solver and thought this would answer my questions concerning my trust for her, and yes I was prepared if she didn't pass...it was just a way to see if I could really let my guard down. I'm not use to these kind of emotions, always been strong inside, and it's taking awhile to adjust and digest the feelings of betrayal. But on a positive note, one emotion that I'm really liking is...SHE LOVES ME!!!!

You're doing great RWC and I'm sure your wife is aware of her past poor decision, and confident that your marriage can become something even better than what you had before, now that both of you went trough a great crisis and are solving it together.<BR>I understand the reason behing your idea, and dont think for one second that I didn't have ideas like that one when things were at its worst for us, or even when in recovery sometimes.However, like you, when I was about to implement them, it just didn't feel right, that was not the kind of relartionship I was wishing to create.<BR>COmmunication is always the key. WHen something doesn't feel right, when we have doubts or are just anxious about something, it is important to communicte that to our spouse so that he/she is aware of the problem and can help us in any way he/she can.<BR>Take care<P>Kat<P><P>------------------<BR>Each and everyone of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought, and the gift of understanding.

RWC,<BR>I think too, you made the right decision. I meant to respond to your original post asking for advice, but got knocked off line, & got busy with something else. You had so many good suggestions and advice, I felt more one didn't matter. <BR>My H has also made the same promise to let me know if SHE ever tries to contact him. So far, to my knowledge , (and we all know how dense I am!!) she has made no efforts since discovery & my H's end to the affair, over 1 1/2 yrs ago. I guess I'm one of the lucky ones where she doesn't continue to attempt to see him. In the past, I also thought many times about doing something to see if he would tell me, ,,a note on his car, a message at work,,etc....but then I'd ask myself ,,"Why?" She seems to have dismissed him as though he was a passing fancy,,,why would I want him to think she was still mourning the loss of their relationship, especially when she doesn't seem to be doing so? Why would I want him to think there was still another chance with her? What if he didn't tell me and recontacted her to ask her to stop and that contact rekindled the feelings and initiated further conversations? No,,it wasn't worth it to me. And I'm glad you decided it wasn't the right decision for you either. Stay strong,,,enjoy NOW and each other. I know it's hard but try to let the past be the PAST.

i think the idea of a test is a good idea. i wish i could think of one myself. but sending flowers to your wife in your name sounds really wonderful, you are doing a great job of rebuilding and it is encouraging to hear.