Ok I am kind of upset. First of all the idea that vulnerability somehow lessens culpability. I am tired of excuses people make...they were low, had stress...needs werent met. All of this means nothing when one spouse is taking the other for a ride. Yes all people are vulnerable to affairs but then again there are people who have hit everylow possible in life and still don't stray. I guess I am just that kind of person...I can understand all the grey there is in the lives of others but for me there is only black and white. The thing that keeps me sane is that no matter how wrong he has been he cannot change me for the worse. I will not change who I am, a woman who values marriage, family, and fidelity. I try to live by the philosophy of do unto others. It is not in my makeup. To me the emotional needs I lack cannot be fulfilled by anyone else but my husband not because of the man he has been because of the woman I am. My vows mean that much to me. What emotional needs I lack I look to God to ease. I understand how low my husband felt at times...I understand how low most wayward spouses feel. But if I lived my life ruled by feelings I would have been long gone. So my extension of personal friendship was just that...an offer I make to many people regardless of gender. In my life it is a given not to have friends of the opposite sex on a personal level. I wouldnt even sit in the lunch room at work with a male collegue unattended. Not because I dont trust myself but becasue I would not want to give the wrong impression to the collegue or to my husband. This is not something new for me. It is who I am. However, I do realize the importance of needing friends now. And not friends who just sit there and say poor you or friends that listen to your sad story and say wow I could make you a better wife/husband than she/he did. I am talking about indviduals who struggle with betrayal and heartbreak...individuals who have been there. People who wont judge you for still loving the spouse that treats you so badly. People who have been wounded like you. People who are working everyday to make their marriage work. I am sorry if my compassion for another human being in pain and my attempt to offer as well as recieve personal feedback threatens some. I truly meant only to be kind. I know this is long as everything I seem to post is but I wanted to say one final thing. I try to look at Christ's life and ask myself would this be acceptable to Him. Christ comforted anyone in need and accepted the love of all who offered it...man, woman and child. And ofcourse in no way am I comparable to the perfect example of Christ...(so that you all know I try never to be careless in my actions, I try to think along these lines) but I did think my extension of friendship would have been acceptable to Him...or I never would have offered. I guess I am defensive because I dont understand people who make vows lightly. I guess I am hurt by the insinuation that I would ever enter into or draw anyone into a compromising situation because after what I have been through there is nothing on earth that would make me break my marriage vows. I know those of you who warn against this have your reasons...your following a formula that is not unreasonable. I just live by the standard set in my marriage vows. So my offer of friendship is open to all male or female on this board or off.

Dear Mortarman,
I apologize for using this space to explain myself but I felt I had to. I know you are looking for comfort and feedback. I did not intend to make this my personal forum but I feel each time I try to be open or kind I experience some sort of scolding. I can not help but be blunt. I do not mean to seem self-rightous or judgemental but sometimes I just feel like screaming "Hey this is just plain wrong!" It is just who I am. My sincere apologies if I have offended you or made things harder for you in anyway. I do not withdraw my offer of friendship because I do not think there was anything inherently bad in it. My best to you and your family.

ayslyne

Thanks guys and gals for all of the support. It is about all I have right now. I am in New Jersey this weekend because my brother is getting married today. Yesterday, I met my WW at the mall and we had lunch with my youngest son (he had spent the night with her the night before.

I tried to keep things on the positive, away from the relationship issues. But she began talking in that area, started crying. I asked her why she was upset and why she was still angry. I told her that she has gotten everything she asked for, and that she is now free of me. She said "Do you think I like this? Do you think I want this?" I told her "Well...yes! Because if you didnt, if you didnt want to do this, then you wouldnt." I tried to get off the subject after that. No LBs...just told her I love her and that I wish she would come home. She said she just sees this as the only way to do this...that she cant see how it will ever work. I didnt even know what to say! I just told her that I know we have had our problems, but we are also family and have 8 years of history together and that I know we have to try to see if it will work. I told her that if she walks away now, she will never know.

She is still separating everything from me (separated out the Blockbuster accounts yesterday and handed me the check card to our joint accounts). I have just about lost hope with this, to be honest. I know all of you that recently posted are saying hang in there, that she can come thru this. But I just dont see it. She is hellbent on leaving, she is beginning to live alone (although she said yesterday that she doesnt like it...but I guess that means that she is talking about the kids & talking about that she does still need/want a man...just not me). She has separated everything out. Any interaction by her has surrounded the kids. I have two tickets to Creed at the end of the month as well as a trip for the two of us to New York planned for the weekend of her birthday in October. I asked if they were still on. She said "Do you think that is a good idea?" Then she said that if we are still on good terms, then yeah, she would go.

I know I havent answered all of the latest posts and I will do so later today after the wedding (I am SURE I will be a mess!). Your posts make a lot of sense. But to me, and maybe it is just because I am in the middle of it, I just dont see how or why she is going to turn this around. She is very stubborn and will continue even if she knows that she shouldnt. I just feel like I am wasting my time waiting on her as she continues to pull further away.

I miss her. I really do. For 8 years, until I left for Bosnia, we were best friends. Even while the A was going on in Bosnia (and she didnt know that I knew), we were still friends and talked almost daily. Now, she is not a part of my day, although I think of her constantly. I cannot get her out of my mind. I want to hear her voice, to see her face, to hold her. And I have nothing. Sure the kids are with me most of the time. But they cant fill what I am talking about.

I cannot believe we are where we are at. I cant believe the things she says about me. I cannot believe that she continues to sell out her future, her intergrity, etc over a false impression of my and our future together. But, I just dont see how she is going to recover.

Of course, I have to get the rest of my life together, for me and for my kids. But just like at the wedding today. I will walk around with a smile on my face, but inside just a hollow shell. I really can find no joy right now, even with my kids. I have not been happy in probably 10 months. How in the hell am I to find the strength to move on, to be that man that she is going to want to come home to and be the father I have always been and my kids deserve?

Guys & gals...I want to have faith in Steve and in what all of you are saying. But I just dont see how I can ever get my wife back. And she is the most important thin in my life. Again, I will post later on what all of you have written.

I have little faith and not much hope left.

It is extremely painful and sad. I know where you are...I have been there. My prayers are with you.

ayslyne

Hi Mortarman,
I know it looks bad. I don't have much advice to say, except, try to hang in there.

Since I have not experienced this, I cannot relate, but I do have a friend who recently went through a divorce. His W of 12 years, had an A. They tried MC, but she would not give up the OM, so he filed for divorce, she also told him she did not want to try to work on M. They have been divorced about a year, maybe more. About 6 months after the divorce, OM and xW split up, she is having regrets about M ending. Friend will not go that route with xW again. He says he will not give her the opportunity back in his life. What I'm saying here, is it looks bad now. She is probably still in the FOG, and maybe withdrawal. She is confused and emotions are running amok. Once everything clears for her, she may want back everything she used to have.

Do you best to hang in there. Keep working on yourself and have fun at the wedding

Well, thanks to everyone for their encouragement. I was just finishing up with a long post, and then my computer crapped out and I lost it all. So here it goes again.

This last weekend was pretty bad. my brother's wedding brought up a lot of hurt and pain. then Sunday, my WW and I and our youngest son (our other two are in Indiana visiting relatives) were to spend the day together. Well, as soon as the WW got to my house, she was into it with me. She like the way the house has been put together since the move (her first time seeing it). She asked who was helping me. i told her that a female friend of mine had been putting the finishing touches on it because this sort of thing was not my forte. Of course, she got angry and wanted to know who it was that was putting her stuff up. I didnt say anything to that. I just told her that it didnt matter, it was just a friend that offered to help me get things unpacked and do something with the place.

Well, instead of having a nice day and depositing some love units, we spent the day talking about our relationship and her contunuing to maintain that she does not see how we get it back together. While we were at lunch, she had gone to the bathroom and i noticed a light blinking inside her purse, so I opened it and saw a new cellphone. I opened it (probably shouldnt have) and checked the last number dialed. Guess who? yep, the OM. She came back and i asked her about the phone. She said she had just gotten it the day before because she doesnt have a phone in her apartment and her current cellphone doesnt work out where she is at. I asked her why she was calling OM. She said she hadnt talked to him in several weeks. that Saturday, she had seen him at the gym and talked to him briefly. She told him she would call him later. she said when she tried, he didnt answer and she left a message. I asked why she was calling and she said that it was because everyone "hates" her for what has been going on and he is the only "friend" she has that she can trust. She went on to tell me that the OM now has a new girlfriend. If true, i wonder what the WW is thinking on this and if she think that now that she is out of the house and on her own, that she can win him away from this gal. Dunno.

Well, against everyone's recommendation, we spent the rest of the day arguing or talking about US. We just couldnt seem to get off the subject. We talked about finances (I'll hit that below). She still keeps saying that she doesnt see how we work out. She even said this morning when she called me briefly at work, that we were "beating the odds because most couples in our shoes do not separate...so we are headed in the wrong direction." I agree we are headed in the wrong direction, but dont know about the separation bit. Of course, most of the time, people are telling me and part of me believes that she is telling me what I want to hear, so I will stay in the game until she is ready to finish me off.

She keeps saying she is scared of me. I have no idea REALISTICALLY why she would be that way. yeah she was followed and had her every move analyzed, taped and recorded during the A. But, there has never been any physical threat to her. Ever. the only things that could even remotely scare her is the possibility of her losing everything. And I have not done that, but have been more than generous as she divided things up during her move out. She said that my asking her several times for SF yesterday was pressuring her and caused her to continue to be scared. I told her that I loved her, that I havent had her near me in over a week and that none of my needs were being met right now.

Anyway, I just dont know if i am being taken for a ride, if she is definitely out of here and she is just waiting for an opportune time (or a new man to show up) before making it official. She threatened yesterday to go do the paperwork next week during one of our arguments. This was due to the financial situation.

with my new business starting up, I am increasing my income greatly. I have started buying things around the house (which pissed her off because she is living on a show string budget...even though she has our $11000 in the bank) and will be free and clear of all of my financial baggage probably in three months. if we were together, we would have been free of hers too, because that $11000 would have helped catch a lot of hers up, and with me paying everything off, we would be sitting pretty. But, now, she is angry because (even though she told me to) I am dumping all of her bills, late bills (car is lat three months because i had planned on paying it off with some of that money and buying her a new one...plus not kjnowing if i should pay another dime towards anything of hers) on her. Her number one need is financial. This is one of the main reasons the OM got in because even though he makes considerably less than me, she said that he manages his money well. of course, they would have had a huge problem because my wife is a spender.

Anyway, what am I to do about the bills? If I dont pay them...HUGE LB!!! And it gives me no chance to fill her number one need. But, if I pay them, I am put in a severe fiancial bind because she still has the $11000, I will have to struggle to catch everything up (maybe a second job). And all the while, she is out in her own place saying she doesnt see us working out. so where is my motivation for me to bust my butt for this woman? of course, she has not filed paperwork. I even caught her listening to one of Dr. Harley's tapes the other day. But, is she just biding her time? Is she trying to get every last bit of money and effort out of me before she cans all of this? Or is Steve Harley right, and she is in withdrawal and the fog, andif I can keep from LBing, she will wake up? The problem is I dont have the motivation to continue meeting these financial needs and her still not showing me anything. Added to the fact that with woek, as well as school starting back up, and her living in her own apartment, I will have little time with her to spend "quality" time. And her lease is up for renewal in 11 weeks. how does she see that home is safe, that she can come home and work on this? How will she ever see any of that if I piss her off by dumping that load of bills on her and she has to declare bankruptsy? Or, she is forced to go to court to get a separation agreement spelling out my support? then, it will truly be over!

So, I dont know what to do. I have so many people telling me not to spend one red cent until she steps up to the plate. But I know my wife. Since she has limited time, my meeting her financial needs would be the best way to stay in and improve things, that is if she really has a chance of coming back.

Help guys and gals!!! My LBing and asking her for SF this weekend is directly related to this. I dont want to be the fool. I really dont want to spend anymore energy and effort and money on a woman that isnt coming back. But if I dont, then the woman that possibly would come back, definitely wont.

I have no good gameplan, am out of resources, and almost out of time. Anyone got a miracle out there?

In His arms.

Mortar,

Your reply did not strike me as unusual until I got near the middle...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She keeps saying she is scared of me. I have no idea REALISTICALLY why she would be that way. yeah she was followed and had her every move analyzed, taped and recorded during the A. But, there has never been any physical threat to her. Ever. the only things that could even remotely scare her is the possibility of her losing everything.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You may not like the blunt answer I'm about to give, but I'm pretty sure I'm correct. Here goes...

There are MANY types of abuse that we "as men" CAN and many times do inflict on our spouses. Many times because of "our unawareness," we inflict abuse (and therefore pain) without even knowing it. Abuse types can vary from the most severe type of physical to seemingly minor. Here are the most common forms of abuse and are classified as Domestic Violence.

Physical Abuse (spousal and children)
Verbal
Emotional
Financial
Sex
Intimidation (threats)
Isolation
Using Children
Male Privledge.

These are ALL viewed as abusive and controlling. They are part of the Domestic Violence, "Wheel of Violence." I have posted a link to a readable graphic (I don't know this organization, I only used their graphic as it is ledgible. If you would like more information, I would be happy to supply it for you). Wheel of Abuse

In your case, I see financial, sex and intimidation "standing out" as ABUSES YOU ARE INFLICTING ON HER! Financial because you do not want to cooperate in payment of her bills (yes even though she tells you not too). Sex because you are "hounding her" about sex and YOUR needs. She has NO inclination to want to sleep with you right now, anything else is forcing her (I picked up on this the last time you you indicated you had sex, I got the impression you wanted it, she did not and she did it only to "get you off her back"). By using financial and sexual abuse automatically puts you in the intimidation category also. First reaction is a little hard to stomach that "I'm an abuser," but if you look hard and deep, you may very well have fallen into a place where you do not want to be.

Mortar, I speak only from experience. Last year I was not going to make the mortgage and car payments. My thinking was similar to yours, "why should I do it when I can't even live or sleep with her"? A quick review with two of my A/M counselors and mentors and they quickly pointed me to the violence wheel and asked me, "do you ever want to or hope to get back together with your wife?" A resounding "YES," could be heard. They said nothing more. I knew what I had to do. After that, I studied the wheel for an "emotional" several hours and concluded I was abusive in many ways. How could I be, as I wrestled to deny it? I was never physical, I rarely if ever used language with her???

I decided to have try and talk with my W about if she felt I were guilty of abuse from the "wheel's perspective." Within a few moments her expression was truly visible, "who hit this guy with the ton of bricks?" I feel that day (that moment) was a turning point for us. The mere fact that I "soul searched" and found several reasons why our marriage started such deterioration was a BIG plus to her. As I looked closer, these were some of the BIG reasons for the start of the A in the first place. I had to work on me!!!!!!!!!!

My point in all this? Look at yourself and the wheel very closely. She is afraid of you and you cannot figure out why. Abuse causes anger AND fear! She does not feel safe with you.

I urge you to look long and hard and I hope you too will see an expression on her face similar to what I saw when you decide to discuss this with her. Forget sex and forget about her being concerned for your needs right now! She is going to protect herself and continue to be afraid until the problem(s) are addressed and she can feel safe with you. This is your miracle and it can work, but first you have got to look at YOU which is a function of Plan A anyway.

I'll be more than happy to give you anymore of my experiences and of course suggestions or resources. Our situations (at least at the time) were very similar in nature...

MITT

Oh my gosh....

quote:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------She keeps saying she is scared of me. I have no idea REALISTICALLY why she would be that way. yeah she was followed and had her every move analyzed, taped and recorded during the A. But, there has never been any physical threat to her. Ever. the only things that could even remotely scare her is the possibility of her losing everything.---------

Eh? No idea why she is scared? Um...she was followed and had EVERY move recorded and taped...and if I'm not mistaken at one point I think it was mentioned that some recording device was planted in a place where no one who planted it actually had a key...so that would involve breaking into someone's place? I know some may be thinking..well, if she hadn't been doing something wrong...this wouldn't have happened...but that is an unfair extreme length to go to. I realize your friends did it and that you didn't ask for it...but I'm sure your WW still associates and lumps the whole thing as having to do with 'YOU'....phew, I would feel so horribly violated...almost like a stalking. Please understand...I'm not saying that WS's have the right to cheat...and have their secrets..and that you have no right to have some documented behavior in order to confront a lying WS...but gosh, where do you draw the line? I am the WW myself...and I will allow that my behavior created my own situation...but that doesn't justify any threat to my physical safety which is EXACTLY how I would feel in her situation. You cannot win anyone back with threats..and honestly...would you really want to??? How long would she stay this time? and out of fear?? I wouldn't want anyone staying with me out of fear or pressure...

Mortarman: I'm not saying you are intentionally doing any of this...at least not calculatedly in my opinion from what little I've read and know about your situation...but your actions are having exactly that impact! You do so great for a while...and then you sabotage yourself and the progress you are making and put yourself back to square one...or even further behind with her. I think it is potentially even this inconsistent behavior that she has objected to or had problems with long before any 'A'. I understand the battle you are having trying to be the 'nice guy' about all of this when you are the one that was cheated on....I understand it seems so unfair...I guess once again it all comes down to whether you want to stay in the marriage for real or not. I understand that your wife's decisions and actions may end up (down the road) making the decision for you...but you need to be able to...(if that is the course it takes)...stand before your kids and before God knowing you did everything possible to keep it together...even when it hurts terribly. I know we aren't Jesus..and that we are so far from perfect that it is depressing sometimes....but look at everything Jesus tolerated from people...the scorn, the abuse, the torture...and never took his love away, made threats...his message was one of love, unconditional love...one of consistency...and one that promised immeasurable rewards.

I know that is a big standard to live up to..and in the end...impossible for all of us to fulfill for none of us are perfect...but we are called to try it nonetheless....as you are attempting to do. Quit focusing on her, SF, etc....focus on God, let him supply your needs..and when some of those can't be supplied right now (like SF), let him supply you with peace and grace to persevere. Maybe your reward won't be the eventual reconciliation of you and your wife...maybe your reward will be after this life..but God sees everything you are doing and He knows the condition of your heart!

I know from being a previous WS...many of the things you felt weren't LB's were DEFINITELY big LB's!! Also, to say she can come and go...in the house...and is welcome anytime...and then to change your mind because you are losing faith...what is that saying? How can she have any confidence in y'all as a couple if you have none? You want consistency from her...let her also see consistency from you. I understand at some point, you may have to ask for that key back...as with a Plan B type arrangement...but keep all of these decisions and tactics in the proper order and do not let them be viewed as premature retaliation...or retaliation at all for that fact. I would stick with what Steve recommends...he has so much more experience with this than any of us...and so many 'restored marriages' to backup his reasoning and recommendations...even when they make no sense to some of us!

I am stumped about the financial thing....I don't think you should have to jeopardize your needs..and the needs of the kids to keep her head above water....but if it is not jeopardizing key needs...then I see no reason why you can't help her (while in plan A)...no one said you have to be a chump about it...or get taken for another 'ride'...but wow, what a testimony to your love for her!! I would have just melted on the inside if my H had been 1/10th as loving as you have been...although I would have bristled just like your WS has done on the LB's you have been unknowingly doing. Also, I am the main financial provider for my family anyways...so this was never an issue..sigh...just the opposite for me.

Couple of other things...you said your new business is taking off and that money is coming in? So...I'm confused...is helping her financially putting you in dire financial straits or not? Maybe I'm getting your posts confused with someone else's..LOL..wouldn't be the first time! Also, maybe it is unfair of me to say this...or it is a suggestion in Plan A...but to be so aloof when she asked you about who decorated...what was your reasoning behind this? A little 'tit for tat'? I don't mean to sound cruel...I'm new here..and if this is a recommendation of the Harley's...then I apologize...I just think that it seems like retaliation and a little 'dishing out of the same medicine'. You know how badly it hurts and worries when you get evasive answers...I'm not saying you can't be aloof and evasive about some things..but to say something like..yeah, a female friend came over and helped me...and then not to give her the name..or reassure her in any way...well, wow..that would make me feel like my H is planning (or having)his own little A...and is giving me a taste of what I did to him...and I would feel even less secure about long term hope for the marriage...I would just see an endless road of affairs back and forth between us both at that point...and would say...to heck with this...

I feel for you both, Mortarman..I hope I have not offended or hurt you...that is not my intention by any stretch of the imagination...I want this to work out for the sake of both of you...and especially the kids!! I just wanted to give another opinion from a WS point of view.

I know WS's have hurt the BS's..and that much of this doesn't make sense...I wish to God it did..and that I had never had an A...it has brought untold grief, heartache, and unimaginable damage..I was a faithful W for over 15 years..and blew it...never went looking for it...I was desperately emotionally needy..and never even realized it...I would trade anything I had to undo what is done...my H rages and argues with me until I want to throw up...or just die and have some peace. I have been called the vilest of names...and most of the time we can't ever talk to each other decently...especially because I am the one who did the 'biggest sin' against the other. The other day I was 1 1/2 hours late coming back from a business dinner with my boss (also female..and two other co-workers..one male, one female)...and I did not call to say I'd be delayed..and cell phone died..yeah, yeah..sounds like typical WS bull..but it was true...We had some drinks...and I paid no attention to the time...I got home..and got BLASTED....and it lead to physical violence...I offered to let him talk to my boss, my co-workers, the restaurant so that my whereabouts and my story could be verified but he would have nothing to do with it. Now, he could have shared his feelings..and how he felt threatened by not being able to contact me..and that he didn't want to see it happen again...in a loving and caring manner...I would have bent over backwards to ensure it didn't happen again. But, his feelings of anger and rage...and unforgiveness are much more important to him than trying to get his real point across in order to better our relationship. He kept screaming that I don't 'GET IT'...that I don't understand what he needs...how can I understand or hear the message of love...when someone is screaming at me in rage...who understandably doesn't believe me...but who is so persistent in bullying and threatening me...that I can't hear anything they are saying...except they hate me...will never trust me...and that I will never get it right...

I'm sorry...I went off into my own little problem...that was not my intent...

God Bless you and your family...I'll be praying for all of you.

YellowRose

The last 2 posts are really great advice and insight Mortarman. My xOM practically stalked me...and he felt he had a "right" to do it because he suspected I wasn't divulging my entire intent or thoughts to him. Well DUH, the more he pushed his way in to my privacy, the more I wanted him AWAY from me. It was scary and it was a HUGE LB. My H, on the other hand, did his best to help me out financially. I didn't ask much of him, but he consitantly offered more. One day he told me to quit being so stubborn and take his help. It felt very loving on his part...like he was taking care of me.

Read and think. We can only advise from what you've written...but there are some things that stand out as possible reasons she might not feel safe with you.

Well in general I disagree with letting her off the hook. It is very hard to be asked to go above and beyond with not only no effort on her part but her continuing bad behavior. And personally I do not feel her claim of fear is valid, like so many other things I think this is part of her FOG...an excuse to transfer the blame back to you. I am one of those who think she is like the theif that who is not sorry they stole but terribly, terribly sorry they got caught. I am perplexed at one issue. Why you would want to have sex with her. On some level are you trying to punish her...make an act between two people based on love and mutual gratification a service she must provide you? And the fact that you accepted the help of a female friend to help set up housekeeping illustrates to me that you vent your anger towards her in underlying ways...testing her jealousy level, seeing if she would even notice or be bothered...a sign that she may not want to let you go after all. Maybe you didnt do it consciously. And I am not suggesting anything immoral with your behavior but the fact the she was angered by you sharing anything, however, trivial with another woman was a blow to her dealt by you even if it was initially unintentional. And your response to her was it "...doesnt matter who it was." Almost saying "You have your private things and so do I." At least I am sure that is the way it sounded to her or she wouldnt have been angry.I dont know if it is the difference between men and women. Maybe the physical act validates a continued emotional tie for you but clearly her emotions towards you are not loving at this point. She carries great anger towards you, however unjustified. When sex is a chore it is demoralizing...you will drive her to hate you talking about needs instead of love. She has an imaginary bond with the OM. Your marital bond is strained. I am not saying her reactions are correct...I am obviously not one to find empathy with the wayward spouse in the FOG (fyi FOG to me is an excuse to maintain bad behavior and mitigate responsiblity). I know this doesnt go along with the AB plan thing but I feel like the infidelity nulifies what was. Both parties must look at themselves and say what sort of spouse do I want to be...what sort of person do I want to be and become that person. If it happens that the wayward spouse comes out of the fog and becomes the spouse you want in life, the person that you want in life then the marriage can continue. Until that happens I feel many times the betrayed spouse facilitates further fog lurking. I know I did for years. But that is just me. I am no phD, I have just been there and this is what I have learned. Take it for what you will. I know that there are valid lessons on MB and I agree in theory with many components but the emotional damage in reality sometimes makes theory seem like the impossible dream.

In my prayers mortarman

More later.

<small>[ August 23, 2002, 10:39 AM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

Mortar,

It had the near effect of what I was hoping. I did not want to see you cry and broke down but I do want to see you thinking and I can see you have been inspired once again. I also feared that you would be angry at me for being so pointed...

The first time I saw the wheel, I was self enrolled in an Anger Management class just about the point where you were this morning. Needless to say, I too had many of the same feelings and disgust that you are now feeling and at the same time I had a lot of learning to do.

It's interesting to learn that most (next to all) men are brought up the way you and I have been. "Be the man" we're told, "take charge and be the man." It's centuries and centuries of the way it was - the way we were expected to be. At one time (or many) it was probably well regarded to be the man. Now, as we all know, times have changed, people have changed and roles have reversed. What you'll find is that you can still be the man except some of the fundamentals may have to change. you can still be the husband, the father, protector, financier, mentor and the disciplinarian, etc. just a little wiser.

Tonight, respect your W's decision and DO NOT talk to her about ANYTHING relationship. Maybe tell her that you'd like to get together tomorrow or something BUT DO NOT PRESS! Use this time to figure a way where you can talk to her, SAFELY in a way you revealed yourself to us right here tonight. If it's any way like you wrote your post to us, she will give you a look of astonishment, a look of sincerity you have never seen before and she too will wonder, "who hit you upside the head." But it's not over there. Confession is one thing, change is another! You've got work to do buddy...

Mortar, you seem like a very decent man committed to making the best of another chance with your M. I believe if you can demonstrate to your W the things you have learned tonight and the ways you can / will seek help, I believe your M can come back together (barring anymore unforeseen A glitches). I am not asking, you nor would I ask you to condone events of the A as may have been suggested. Events of the A etc. are minor right now, you want your wife to feel "protection." This is Plan A - simple Plan A. Keep it going and it will work.

I only hope your W sees the sincerity that we see from this end. Don't beat yourself up to hard tonight (and dont' bug her).

Let us know how it went...

MITT

ps. Mortar, if you want to e-mail me offline please feel free at makingitthruthis@hotmail.com .

<small>[ August 12, 2002, 08:06 PM: Message edited by: MakingItThruThis ]</small>

Woah!! Wait a sec, Mortarman...while I wanted to draw your attention to how..and why your wife might be thinking or feeling some things...I never ever ever intended for the 'blame' to fall squarely at your feet!! Please listen....most everyone on this board has had some part in allowing their marriages to get to the point where they are vulnerable to outside influences like the OP...BUT...no one MADE the WS commit adultery whether physically or emotionally. Heck, I'm the WW! I have had a H with a huge anger management issue...who provided very little support in the ways that I needed them in the past 16 years...and our relationship has been not only mentally/emotionally abusive..but recently edged into the physically abusive arena (on both of our parts...he cornered me against the shower in a rage..and I struck out..so he retaliated)...but he DID NOT make me commit adultery..nor do I feel that he drove me to it. I had choices the whole time also...what about my responsibility for ensuring our marriage was as affair-proof as possible? Why did I allow another man to come between me and my H? It was even more complicated in my situation because I had separated and filed for divorce before I had a physical A...although the emotional A started prior to the divorce filing..but not prior to separation. I had slept on the couch for 9 years...and no sex for 6 years...I was dead to our marriage..and I also did not become a Christian until after I had already had the physical A. However, none..and I repeat none of this excuses me committing adultery...some of it did contribute to the marriage being in such shape that the OP had easy emotional access to me...but I let it happen. I could have just divorced...and then sought companionship elsewhere. I made the choice. I only wanted to draw your attention to areas that may be giving your wife additional 'excuses', etc. Yes, I understand what ayslyne is saying..but like many BS's say...it is hard for the WS to understand how they truly feel if they haven't been there...I can testify that not all WS's use their 'fog' to transfer blame back...for me it was more of a period where I was in such emotional upheaval that I compromised every value and belief that I held near and dear to my heart when I had my 'A'. I think your wife's fear is very real to her...no matter how invalid it may seem..and may potentially be. I think you have said numerous times that Steve backs up this statement. Can a WS fool others..including Steve? Sure...but many times..we even have ourselves fooled...you say something is an issue..and then you make it your issue...sometimes it is just covering up other junk..it is hard to stop the cycle...I just don't want you giving her any more excuses...so that she can come to terms with her own behavior..and what she has done...without having your behavior to distract her. I am, by no mean, in favor of letting her off the hook...but whose hook are we talking about? Trust me...the WS does NOT escape an A unscathed! I'm not talking about letting her have her cake and eat it too. That brings me to another point...she has to answer for what she did to an authority much higher than you...or anyone on this MB...she has to answer to God...shoot, answering to the kids is tough enough! I'm not sure if she is a christian or not...so don't have too much to say on this point. I think only God...and probably someone very experienced in this area (like Steve) can tell if the remorse she is feeling is real or not. I'm also not saying that you should ever allow a WS to trample all over you, take advantage of you..and not take responsibility..or avoid suffering some of the natural consequences of their affair. I do agree with Asylyn and the others on many points...but I think that sometimes..not all the time...the WS is remorseful...more than the BS realizes...although many WS's..to Asylyn's point..are more remorseful about getting caught..than what they actually did. This is very sad....I'm going out on a limb though..and will state that I feel your wife is remorseful...but will allow your LB's to sidetrack her from her own stuff.

Now, I'm gonna say this one more time....YOU DID NOT MAKE YOUR WIFE HAVE AN AFFAIR. While I am glad that many of the posts made you think...we are not mind readers...or psychics...nor does any one of us individually own the cornerstone on the truth...darn, if that is true...I'm gonna post a whole bunch of stuff so that I can figure out the rest of my life!! LOL...

You deserve your wife in your life....as long as she is a wife committed to your marriage..with no room for another person. You are the man she needs, Mortarman...you became that man the day you married her before God...all you need to do...is Plan A yourself....quit LB'ing....please don't lose confidence in your ability to be a good husband to her...you need to be completely confident in this area. You know where you need to grow..to make improvements..and if not...well, pardner...everyone here will be glad to nudge you along (just kidding)...Steve will help you keep your side of the road straight.

As painful as the thought may be of losing her completely...you will come through this..knowing what it takes to make a marriage work..and how to do everything you can to affair-proof one. I know you probably don't want to contemplate that right now. Take faith in this...even with the LB'ing you have done...I don't think it is past the point of no return yet...if you do clean up your side..and finish LB'ing her....and start working your Plan A on yourself...and do what Steve recommends....I really feel that in the end, if she decides not to stay in the marriage...she probably would have made that decision even if you never done any LB'ing, etc. Maybe I'm wrong....it is just a feeling I have based on what I have read..and my own experiences with being majorly LB'd over and over. If she has not yet truly made up her mind...then changing what you are doing can STILL make an impact! Don't go to the other extreme now...and lose your faith and confidence...and allow your remorse and sadness over some new realizations to make her affair seem justified, ok? Women are attracted to confident...calm men...who realize their own self worth..without lording it over the woman...YOU can do it!!!

We only shared opinions because we care!!! We are pulling for you!!

YellowRose

Hi Motarman,

How are you doing? I cannot add to what the rest have said.

Regarding the finacial, since that is a big EN for her, after things have calmed a little, maybe the two of you can discuss it.

She needs some security, which is why she put what she see as her half in the bank. You intended to take it and pay off her debt. Now, because she took it, there isn't the funds to pay off her debt.

Is there some sort of compromise, where maybe the money could be used to at least catch up the payments, she keeps some for security and peace of mind for herself, is there some way you could meet some of her financial needs, without you and especially the kids making sacrifices.

How much input in the past has she had in the money decisions? My H, once tried to get me to let him take over the finances. His idea was, he will control, I will give him my check and he will let me have "what he thinks I need" and the bills will get paid. No way was I going to give in to this, one, I know him, I would get hardly anything and he would be out spending tons on himself. I take care of the money, I'm constantly trying to involve him, he does not want to be involved. He avoids the subject. Weekly I ask him to look over the budget, and provide his input. He is not available.

Take it slow and do your best to not LB

Whoa! It's great you're beginning to see a bigger picture than what you were aware of previously, but the others are also right...you don't hold responsibility for her current choices. The A was her decision...and a bad one.

I do hope that if your new epiphany is correct you can use that information to REALLY do a Plan A. I suspect that's what your W really wants...you and your marriage, but on equal ground.

MITT, MM,
Just so you know, I just fired off an email to my WW, attached the image of the wheel to it, and aksed her to tell me which types of abuse I've committed and how...it's amazing what we learn every day...thank you!

MM - just wanted to check in with you and see how you are doing. I am concerned about you. Will keep praying for you and your family!

YellowRose

Well, it was a rough night for me. The truth of my past with my wife, as well as what I see is the future, is just hard to take.

Last night, she came over and I got out the wheel. And I explained what I had found through the posts you guys gave me. She said that this is what she had been trying to tell me. The "doing good for awhile and then falling down." The controlling nature. trying to have it my way all of the time. she said her anger and fear stem directly from that, and it was when she started working in the ER a few weeks ago, and saw battered women, that she became truly scared because she believes that the controlling nature leads to battering. That may be true in some cases, but I know myself. and I could never lay a hand on her. NEVER!

But, be that as it may, the damage is still done. She talked to me quickly before leaving. she told me that it surprised her that I had finally gotten it. she said that it has been a long time since her and I laughed together. She said that the affair was exactly that...someone who came alongside in a difficult time and laughed with her and made her laugh. Again, no excuses for her poor choices and immoral behavior. she went on to say that is what she is looking for now...someone to laugh with, to enjoy life with again.

she says she has so much anger towards me that she cannot see us making it. as a matter of fact, she says, because she thinks I wont help her with her finances, that she is going to officially file for separation next week in order to spell things out. I told her "then what you are now telling me is that it is over. My coming to grips with the problems and trying to save this marriage and family dont matter to you." She had no answer. She said she is just tired of the arguing since I got home. Tired of all of the mess. She wants happiness, and to have someone come in and fill that.

I said "what about me?" she said she didnt know, that she cant ever see things changing. Again, this is fog talk, I know. Most of our marriage, we were happy and best friends. It was only the last couple of years that I turned into this guy that she hates now. And since I have been home, the whole affair and her leaving has spun me out of control.

she called a little while ago to tell me she got our son registered for pre-school. I told her that I loved her and missed her. She said "Why?" She went on to say that she she has so much anger, especially now that she has screwed up her life, that she doesnt see how she can ever drop it and again trust and love me.

Guys and gals...I know the affair wat my fault. she did it. but the events leading up to it, and my LBing since I got back are my fault. You take those away, and her and I are still best friends and moving on with a happy life.

As of this morning, I firmly believe that she will file that paperwork. That she will accept offers to date pretty soon. That she will continue to pull back from me, except with interaction from the children. And fight I might put up to a separation agreement and monetary issues will only further convince her of this road and drive her away. I am officially today without hope that my wife will come back.

I am supposed to be making dinner tonight for her, I and our youngest son. I miss her so much and miss my friendship the most. But the dark cloud makes it hard to enjoy each other because all I see is her leaving and all she sees is more of the same. We just cant seem to pull out of this.

I dont know what to do now. I am continuing Plan A and will try tonight to keep the smile, and try to be the jovial guy I used to be. But, when that paperwork is served to me, and/or she starts dating again, I do not see how I could go on one more day.

she is everything to me. one of you was right, it aint about the affair anymore. she is heading for the door, not to someone elses arms in particular, just away from me. My christian wife has blown her morals, her faith, her family and now she is running away, rather than stay and fix it. And I cannot change it.

This boat is now dead in the water. I do not know how I live without this woman. She is my family. And has been the best friend I ever had.

I am lost now.

MM - when are you supposed to talk to Steve Harley again? I forget..and am at work and in kind of a hurry...has your WW ever spoken with Steve? Will she agree to speak with him at least? I wish she would agree to give you both a specific time period and agree to delay filing for anything official....and commit to work on the M....just to make sure before she ends things with you. Will she come to this board? Sorry if these are already answered in your post somewhere...am on the run..

YellowRose

Come on soldier, pull youself together.
You did what you did. You are doing what you are doing - and very well indeed. Everthing else is in her court, is her decision. If she goes down the path of destruction - great pity, but if she does it, she is not worth it in the first place, right? If you're at the end of the A plan, move to B. Check in with the Harleys. And take things from there, step by step.

Mortarman,

I was relieved to see your post as I was getting a little concerned after your post last night.

As I said in my last post, I was glad to see you saw some errors that may have occurred within your relationship but I did not mean for you to take full responsibility for your marriage and the course it has taken. I think your epiphany last night may have made great strides for you, your wife and yes, your marriage.

When I went to my wife with the wheel, she did not turn around immediately and say, “move back in and we’ll work it out.” I only wish it happened that way! It took convincing her, not in words, but in actions. Actions came in many forms like classes, seeing change with our kids, etc. Please remember what I said yesterday, “confession is one thing, change is another! Change = work.

Mortar, she has to “see,” not by your words that you changed – she has to see you make an effort to change your behavior. And she has to believe it! Behavior modification is very hard and slow to change even with professional help. If I were you I would possibly look at enrolling in an Anger Management group so you can get an advanced outlook on things. I did, and I contend it has been one of the best experiences in my life!!!

Now – we’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, her talking about any legal action DOES NOT mean you two are “dead in the water.” There is still hope, and by everything I read in your last post and that she said to you in the phone call THERE IS STILL HOPE!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">“she told me that it surprised her that I had finally gotten it.” </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Remember I was telling you about “that look” that I got from my W? Well that’s what you got, a look of astonishment and surprise to her own ears that she probably never in this world thought she would hear from you. You left her with something BIG to think about! You gave her something very positive to focus on – but you’ve got to continue your Plan A like you said and start learning. You’ve only just begun!!!!

Keep up the Plan A, learn, talk, romance (FORGET sex for now) and yes you better laugh, that’s all YOU can do. The rest will be up to her. I’m way out on a limb saying this, but “I FEEL” she will turn around IF you can do as suggested and stay away from anymore LB’s. The fog is still there because I heard so many similar statements, attorney, happiness, smiling, new life, on my own, blah, blah, blah. My W was deeply in the fog when I heard all that junk. Just work on you! See if you can get an appointment with either Steve or Jennifer as they can help out a little more.

My heart and my keyboard are her for you MM, I’ll do WHATEVER I can to help. Keep your chin up, I know it’s hard and GOOD LUCK tonight!!!!!!

Let us know what happens as soon as you can…

MITT