Hi LIR,
It is a relief to see things go well. I think the more we learn about ourselves and each other, the easier it is to get along. ( This assumes both are basicly good people)

I am interrested in how he views his mother as he learns more about himself and relationships. What did he say this time?

Hope for a full and quick recovery from your missing tooth.

SS

Hi there!

H is out with a friend, while I recuperate from this tooth extraction - I'm under strict orders to rest! I'm laughing because I'm thinking my eyes went this year - you know, when you have to hold the page yards from your face in order to see the small print - and now my teeth are falling out! LOL But I'm still beautiful! LOL! You know, I was thinking the other day, what would I say if my H asked me why I am still with him - well, first, because I made a commitment to stay and I will do everything I can to work on "us" so that both of us are happy with our commitment to each other through life, and second, because I thought he was so special that he deserved me! Does that sound conceited? It's not meant to be.

ss - you said some things that were very helpful and I need to hammer them home into my head.

<strong>I think you have had a lot of time to think about your M. First you were afraid, then you became angry. I think he became angry first, then afraid. So his first reaction was to blame you for everything, then he realized he loved you and didn't want to loose you so he was afraid. Meanwhile, you had become angry and he felt he was under attack - so he closed up more than normal. </strong>
I think this must be right on the money. I think he is just starting to feel not so under attack anymore, and starting to relax with me - this is why I have to avoid LB more than ever now. In the past, I think I would see this as meaning he was now open to talking to me, but I would not approach him in a way which he felt he could handle. First, I did not prepare him for my needing to talk. I would just let my fears build, and with my fear, my resentment and depression, and anxiety about his reaction would grow. So I would lay lots of stuff on him at once - naturally he would feel attacked. I am still not sure how to approach talking about the things that still bother me, but I feel that with time, he will be able to discuss things with me more openly. I am going to wait for MC before I broach any "tough" issues as I feel we still need the presence and input of an experienced intermediary - one whom he has consented to listen to. In other words, the counselor will be able to say things to him that I cannot. I expect he has some things he wants the counselor to put to me as well, and I am willing to listen.

<strong>I will make some general observations.
It looks to me like you are both in recovery. He actually talks to you about things. Often he takes your suggestions. Often he is the first to extend the offer of peace talks.</strong>
This has helped me - yes, I do feel like our recovery is now a joint effort. He has always been better at extending the hand of peace than I have - I am very skittish and insecure of being rejected.

<strong>He still has issues. I think he is working on them "one at a time" as many men do. He can't cope with all of it at once.</strong>
It helps me to be reminded of this. I think so, too, and this is why I have told him if he needs more time in IC (he told me he still had a couple of issues he was working on), that I was willing to wait to do MC until he felt he could leave his IC for awhile. I think my H's background has wounded him very much - he has a lot of pain to deal with, and this takes time to come to grips with, and then take on board suggestions as to how to deal with situations differently.

<strong> I think you will make much progress the next year - both of you.</strong>
I hope so!

<strong>He needs to know what you feel when he hurts you. He doesn't need to be told what to do. </strong>
This is what I am working on - just being honest about how "I" feel, without laying blame, or telling him how I think he should be behaving.

<strong>Your only option would be to take it, or leave. If it is really bad, leave the home. If it is mild, leave the room. You sometimes try to control his behavior by your reaction to him.</strong>
Yes, this really hits home. It's true, when I look back on it, that I have tried very hard to influence or control his behaviour. But not in blatantly obvious ways. More by choosing to say certain things to try to get a certain reaction, then when I didn't get the reaction I wanted, feeling angry and feeling that HE had failed ME.

This is hard to describe. Part of this is because I believe that when I met my H, he was involved in a long-term EA with a married woman. This issue remains to be addressed in counselling, but is one of the things I feel has to be sensitively looked at in counselling - maybe its one of the things he is dealing with in his IC. This is a long story for me, but she is still his close friend (his "best" friend) - its like, she and her family are his surrogate family - perhaps the EA is long gone (20 years ago) but the friendship remains. Anyway, I did not know this was going on when I met him and fell in love with him. When I did start to wonder about the nature of his friendship with her, I felt very anxious about her "influence" on him WITH REGARDS TO ME. But whenever I tried to talk with him about her, he would clam up. When I finally met his parents, I felt the deprivation he must have experienced so intensely that I felt I understood how he could have needed this other, kind, intelligent older woman so much, and I accepted her. I'm not sure whether that was right now. Like I said, these are threads that need untangling and will take time. But I think the destructive thing was that it set a pattern of behaviour for me - I didn't mention her, didn't challenge her presence in our lives, but I still felt uneasy about it, and not able to talk to him directly, I tried to find other ways to build my R with him. Maybe it's just that I tried to find ways to meet his ENs without talking to him - at any rate, being totally honest with him has never been possible, I feel - its a wound at the heart of our marriage.

This is also the reason why I felt so betrayed by his behaviour this year. He KNOWS how accepting and forgiving I have been and how much I loved him. To call me the names he did and accuse me of being pathologically jealous was so unfair.

But all that aside, this past year has brought me down to the nuts and bolts of communication and I am not willing to go on with a sham marriage. I am finally starting to feel that this is what he wants, too, not just something convenient that works for him.

<strong> You know from being here since Feb. that you can't change him, you can only change you and hope he comes along. Don't tell him what to do, just let him understand that you are hurt, and leave the argument. Don't tell him what he can or can not do, what he should or should not do. Just express your feelings. I feel _____________ about what you just said to me. ( angry, hurt, puzzled, embarrassed, sad, happy, etc. Or - I feel _______________ about ______________. The first being your feelings, the second being his actions, or words. I want to tell you, this one works for me really well.</strong>
Yes, this seems to work well for him, too. I can't give examples right now because I am running out of time, and need to sign off, but will come back on Sunday.

Thanks so much.
LIR

We're following along, will be here when you get back.

SS

Hi LIR,

I suppose we can go back to this one. I wondered if you would want to do so.

How do I cope?
When I get up, I try to pray and ask God what he wants me to do that day.

When I go to bed, I pray and ask him if I did OK. It's usually not hard to know what he thinks, it all seems to come back to me and I review it in my mind.

I still make far to many mistakes but I am a much better person than I was a few years ago, so that's progress. I don't have a problem living with myself. ( most of the time) I just didn't want to sound like I know everything and am perfect, because I am not. I don't say " I am a terrible person." I say " how can I improve today, or this week."

I don't want to give the impression that I think you are a bad person either. I just try to understand the best ways to help and I hope the things I say don't come out wrong.

That is the cycle I am trying to break. I am not willing to enable him to be selfish anymore, but I have to find ways to approach him about these points without being demanding or issuing ultimatums. That's what I come to the forum for help for.
I agree that it needs to be worked on, I can see that the problems with H's privacy are worse than I thought. Unless you kick him out again ( looks good some days, doesn't it?) you still have to find the best way to deal with it, and understanding helps. I was just trying to understand. I still don't get why he is so nice, and trys so hard some days, and still has these other issues that are really bad. Do you have any other insight here?
I know you worry about another A, by now you should be able to see signs if that was going on? I mean, you did before.

Perhaps I ought to slow down and let you catch up with all the other stuff that has been said? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Well, I just thought about something I was supposed to do for neighbors today and did not. Better get it done so I can report in positivly tonight. See ya,

SS

<small>[ September 07, 2002, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

OK, I'm back over on my old thread now - I just want to say how much I appreciate everyone's concern for my son. He is doing fine - back to his old bouncing self! Will just keep an eye on him and pray for the best.

I don't feel I ever have time to get into the dynamics of things that happen between my H and I in as much detail as I would like - there's a lot under the surface, and I guess that is really the heart of the matter. In my ideal world, a good marriage is one where both parties love and trust each other and are able to openly discuss their feelings with each other, even if they fight about things sometimes - if they have a difference of opinion or a misunderstanding, they are able to overcome that with forgiveness on both sides and to go on together IN A GENERAL CLIMATE OF TRUST.

In my marriage, this general climate of trust is impaired, and always has been. I believe this is down to three things.

First, my H has issues of "privacy" which we have talked about before - I put this down to his R with his mother, who is both aggressive and invasive - v. domineering. So he learned to guard himself and protect himself early on.

Second, I have issues of anxiety from my childhood. My father had an A with a younger woman and left us when I was 12. He remained a devoted "weekend" and "telephone" father, but there was always the feeling of competition with my SM, and the sense of loss. So I have "abandonment" issues - security is very high on my list of EN's. It may be that I simply have a hard time trusting anyway and need lots of reassurance.

Third, my H has a "surrogate family" - and I have reason to believe that my H had an affair with the wife 20 years ago when he was in his early 20's and she was in her early 40's, in the years before he met me. She remains his closest "emotional" friend. I asked him about her when I began to wonder how close a friend she was early on in our R, and he was very defensive, and would say only that she was his "best friend". She is the friend I talk about who is a strong Christian, and questions my faith. Over the years she has become my friend as well, and I thought I could trust her. Now I am no longer sure of that, once again. Its all very confused, and I am starting to deal with my own feelings about this and how it affects our marriage in my IC sessions. This is what I call "the monster in the closet" in our M. It may be that it is not such a monster, but since my H has never talked to me about this, it remains a "heavy" topic.

When people say to me that I should love my H unconditionally, I find this confusing. I think I have offered my H unconditional love. I saw the deprivation and punishment he suffered at the hands of his parents. I saw his need for love and appreciation. I could see why he was attracted to this older woman, and how much he had needed the love and support she could offer him. I could see that she also had struggled with her own feelings, but that they seemed to have resolved their "passion" for each other and come to terms with the fact that they really could be friends. It seemed to be a question of priorities. It seemed that she could be a supportive friend to him and be more what she always should have been - a mother figure. I was willing to accept that he needed this loving friendship and I was willing to allow him to keep this friendship. How could I love him more unconditionally? In all the years we have been married, I have never questioned him about her. I respected the understanding that the "love affair" was over and did not want to open a wound which may have caused him shame. I also did not want to worry to death a "dead issue" like a dog over a bone.

What I am beginning to see, though, in part because of what is said on this forum about no contact with a past lover, is that this is a "sleeping giant" in our M. In some sense, we, my H and I, have been role-playing at H and W, because that is what we both wanted. We have had children and tried to build a home and family. All the time, this friend has been in the background as an advisor, praying for us, opening her home to us, accepting us into her family with all our problems. I ask myself sometimes, does she have a private agenda?
The point is that she is what we cannot talk about and she is still present in our lives. I think now that if there is any subject that is "off-limits" in a R, it affects the atmosphere of trust in the M. My H and I both know that this topic is "off-limits" - that sets a precedent for keeping other secrets. By respecting my H's privacy in this, I have allowed him to be a person who thinks he has a right to keep secrets.

In looking back over this last year, I have confided a lot to this friend, and I look back on her advice and am very dubious. This is why I am now anxious once again about her influence over my H. Her immediate reaction when I told her we had argued over his new friendship with an OW was "no-one can meet all of one person's needs". She advised me not to ever approach him on the subject, to never mention the OW to him, not to try to talk about it. She said that he ought to have his mobile and that I should have my own. She supported him in maintaining his computer privacy. She said this was "natural". She said I should just wait out his "infatuation" and that then it would die, and he would come back to me because he would respond to my "long-suffering" and patience. She has repeatedly told me that I have to see that my R with him is dead and to pray for a new resurrection in my M. She has said that he has reason to be afraid of me because I punched him that one time - she has said that I justify myself when I try to explain the circumstances of this. She constantly reminds me that I have failed him as well as he has failed me.

Well, she has also been very kind to me, so I find this all very confusing. And I think what I am picking up on his HER confusion. So I have decided finally to keep my distance from her again.

ss - please know that you have been very encouraging to me and never have I thought that you were a bad person or that you ever were "a bad person". Nor have I ever picked up a tone of criticism from you - I think you know how to phrase things in a positive way, without blame or judgement, which is what I am struggling to learn. This is one reason why I find your posts so valuable. I am sure that this has had a decidedly positive effect in your own marriage - from what you say, your wife seems to appreciate the changes you have made in dealing with problems.

You, I think, have hit the nail on the head when you said - I don't know how your H can be so nice and still have such serious issues - this is just the point for me. My H has always been nice and loving - funny, flirtatious, at home being an involved father, working hard on the house, devoted to his work - but underneath, fiercely guarding his privacy - the "his" stuff I have said before, which means he maintains control, and when and if I try to open this issues for discussion, I am met with either painful silence or open hostility. I also feel the lack of a deeper bond - the unwillingness to listen or talk to me (either he is burying stuff he doesn't want to look at i.e his R with this older woman, or it is the way that I approach him). I am learning, slowly, with the forum's help, that there is a lot I can do in changing the way I approach him, and he seems to be willing to listen, but he still has not started to "talk".

I do believe that he cares very deeply about me. I hope that someday he will be able to open up and talk to me about everything. I don't feel judgemental about his having had an affair with this other woman, nor do I feel judgemental of her. But it is how their past has crept into our present and whether or not it will affect our future that must be resolved. I don't know how to talk to him about this. Hopefully my counselling will help me untangle how to do this.

I had better go now. Will come back later to see if anyone has replied. Again, I can't say how much I appreciate the responses.

LIR

OK, another chunk of time and some more to say.

At end of August, we went up for annual visit to H's parents - visit went reasonably well, lots of positive signs from H.

Second part of the story is that when we go to visit parents, we always stay with H's "surrogate family" - lady friend mentioned above. As I said before, I thought I had developed a good R with my H's friend, and last year, when we had just started having problems, she was very kind and sympathetic to me. This year, I felt something different from her - I can't put my finger on it, but it is a feeling of distance, even hostility. Part of me says, well, as much as she says she is there for both of us, and as much as she has tried to help me, she is really, in the end, HIS friend.

When we visit, there are always times we find ourselves alone together, and she will ask me how things are going and how he is doing. I have tried to be honest without revealing too much. This time, I sensed a reluctance to talk to me. I also felt reluctant to talk to her, and when she asked, I simply said that things were better and that we were working on communication, learning new skills, but that in general, I thought things were improving between us. That is as much as I was willing to say. She asked me how my parents felt about things - I said my parents were very forgiving people, and had been very supportive of both of us, and of us staying together.
She said that she thought his counselor ("this woman" is how she referred to her) was really helping him and that she found him "much wiser". This hurt me, although I have kept it to myself. I discussed my feelings with my counselor. First, I have not "pried" into my H's counselling - I haven't asked him about his counsellor, I didn't even know his counselor was a woman. It hurts that he told her, but not me. It also hurts that he would discuss things he may have learned in his counselling with her and not with me. My counselor said that when she said he was "wiser", perhaps she meant more self-aware, which would be a good thing.

We spent two days with them in all. This is an annual visit and the only time my H sees them. Like I have said before, they are very strong Christians, and we talk a lot about church things. At one point, we got on to talking about the film "The Lord of the Rings" - she thought it was awful and that it didn't have anything to say to people about good and evil - she insisted it was not a good message and that I shouldn't let my children watch it (I haven't - I think its way too scary for young children) - but basically she hated it because there was no "Messiah" figure.

I said that I had seen a documentary on Tolkein and that he had actually written it for himself - he was a linguist and an expert on early languages and he realized that the Normans had wiped out Anglo-Saxon culture when they invaded England in 1066 - and that the Saxon stories had been lost, so he decided to write something of a replacement, like the Norse sagas. He never meant it to be as popular as it became. It's not a Messianic story, its a story about the nature of evil and selfishness and its power to corrupt. Well, she got quite emphatic with me about things, even though I wasn't trying to argue with her.

Later, when my H and I were in bed together, I said that I wasn't disagreeing with her, just discussing it. He said she was just like that and I shouldn't get into it with her. I said "Why is she so hostile to me, anyway?" and he said "I don't know," but he seemed to be saying not to take it too seriously. The thing is, I think that he acknowledged that she was being hostile to me.

On our last night there, I went into the kitchen where she, her H, and my H were sitting round the table talking. I was getting the boys to bed. I obviously walked in on a conversation about me, because they stopped talking, then tried to go on - she had been saying, so she continued her sentence, that she had a friend who had had a complete change of life, that she had blamed everyone else for her problems all her life, but when she was 40, she had a sudden turn around and started taking responsibility for herself. I got the feeling she was comparing me to this friend. Maybe I am just hypersensitive, but it was a little close to home. I pretended I was busy and made a quick getaway. When I came back into the kitchen, they were all praying together. I know I shouldn't get mad about that, but I have tried to get my H to pray with me and he won't - I have tried to get him to read the Bible with me and he won't. So how come he will do all these things with her? It sounded to me like she was saying that I was the one with all the problems - its like, what is REALLY going on here - I don't know what she is saying about me, and how convincing she is. I know that she is a person who thinks she is always right.

Last Tues eve, I had a counselling appt, and I started to talk to my counselor about this issue. When I came home at 10 (I also had a rehearsal to go to) I found the dinner dishes still on the table, just as I had left them at 5:30. This didn't set too well with me - it happens again and again - its the one night I go out to do something for myself, I make a nice dinner for everyone, I come home at 10pm and he hasn't even tried to clear the table. I have never said anything, but this time, since he was settling himself down to watch some TV, I said "Do you think we could clear up these things together?"

He detected the note of frustration in my voice and got defensive. We exchanged words, and he got up and told me I didn't have to do it, to go to bed if I was tired. One thing led to another, and I got started on heavier things - I can't even remember now - but that's what happens. I have so much pent up inside me that has never been talked about, I get upset about something small and then the other stuff comes bubbling to the surface.

Anyway, I tried to control myself and NOT get started on a big row, knowing it was late at night and not a good thing to do - nothing good ever comes of my doing this, but not before I had said that I thought that it was important that we talked about things openly, that we should be able to talk about things openly, and that there were things that we had never talked about that needed to be talked about. I said that there was a lot of stuff that I was pushing down that needed to come up someday. I said that that was the only way we would ever be able to trust each other again.
And HE said "YOU have never trusted ME."
He said this sadly. I wanted to go on talking, but I didn't think it would be constructive, so I stopped. I said, "I would like to talk more, but its late and I don't need to talk right now." He was very silent.

In the morning, we were polite with each other, and when I said goodbye, he had that worried and hunted look on his face again.

But it has relaxed again. When I came home, he had hung up the washing. He has washed more dishes and every day has hung up the washing. We have played backgammon again, he is flirting again. The tension has passed. Once again, things are smoothed over, but without talking, and I have no answers.

Is this the ice cracking? I believe he goes back to IC 23rd of Sept, and I have 2 more sessions before then. I am starting to think we both need a lot more IC before MC would really be beneficial. More time? Talk about patience!

LIR

<small>[ September 08, 2002, 08:33 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

To Lady In Red.....Your H sounds alot like mine, as far as the privacy issues are concerned. I am only 8 weeks into this mess, but i think i am seeing a glimmer of hope. We all know our H's very well, and i can see also that if my H and I start some kind of recovery soon, it will only be working on our marriage problems, but most definetly NOTHING WILL BE SAID ABOUT THE A. The A will just be buried under the carpet. I have thought about this, and I have feel in my heart and head that i have forgiven him for this. I know i hurt my H terribly, the last couple of years I was not a very good wife in alot of areas (and i know that should not condone him having a A)but possibly do you think a marriage recovery can be possible if i say, lets just start over and go from here. A/C0810

LIR, it sounds like you have been through the wringer this summer...I am not sure i know how to take your husband, from a 3rd person stand point he doesn't sound like a very pleasant person, and you seem to constantly be on egg shells working with him...Sorry to hear that things are so difficult...I have noticed some incredible things being said between you, SS and DL that have so much integrity to them..My H and I recently separated so he could "figure things out", as i read Surviving an A i would start to believe that it would be to carry on with OW, but she lives 12-15 hours away (I even get suspicious enough to wonder if that is still true), we have an incredible relationship and still kiss hello and hug etc, but he just needs to work on these lingering feelings for someone else on top of his love for me...but i have a very hard time getting him to open up a little, although i have no problem and i am constantly letting him know my inner thoughts, he will say "I love you". I am confused on where to go with this separation in trying to repair our marriage-we are just finishing week 1 of it and i am torn between giving him all the space he needs and staying on top of him, reminding him everyday that we have an unbelievable relationship...What to do, what to do....My previous posts are under "can you repair after an affair"...Sometimes i wonder, then i see your stories and believe there is hope, but then when you do you stop sacrificing your happiness to make everything work//...Why does all the work fall on us?? This is crazy sometimes... Hope things work out...Take care, keep me posted....

Estes posted this in your other thread and I am respecting your wishes by not posted to your other thread. I thought this was a good point to explore because I know many who feel this way about God. Here is what Estes said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> For what it's worth, gang, I don't believe for a minute that God would allow a child to fall into danger for the purpose of getting his mom's attention.

I do believe, though, that He would work with her in a stressful situation to enable her to learn something.

But to let a child suffer to teach Mom a lesson, no way.

JMVHO,
Estes </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The only thing I can testify to about God is what the Bible says about God. The God I know sent a flood to destroy the entire earth, save a few righteous. The God I know took the first born sons of an entire nation because one leader did not pay attention to God. The God I know destroyed an entire city because only one paid attention to God. Many many many more stories including the story of Job, where God allowed satan to destroy Job and his family just to prove he was a righteous man to satan.

If God did touch LIR's son that one day, I feel that LIR's son was never in any danger. If he was in God's loving arms, how could he have been in danger?

It is hard to know the mind of God.

Dear allforlove,

Thanks for reminding me of these things - and I agree with you - if my son were in the loving arms of God, he was in no danger. I also agree that it is presumptuous of any of us to believe that we can know the mind of God.

Last year, when I was feeling very low and sad, I sat on the sofa and prayed for Christ to be present with us in our home and with us in our R. I had the question in my mind, because I was so worried about my H and the potential damage to his reputation over anyone finding out about his EA with OW1 - my H is a church musician, and OW1 was the daughter of his best friend, also a church musician. I felt someone say to me, inside myself, "there will be consequences from this, but it is not for you to decide what they shall be". And I accepted that. I try to behave with charity towards everyone, although I sometimes fail, both in my thoughts and in my words. If I fail, I try to apologize for myself. For me right now, life is down to the simple and the basic - that is all.

I am reminded of what our priest said in one Sunday's sermon, about the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is called "The Spirit of Truth" and the work of the Holy Spirit is to illuminate and expose the truth. Lies and deception have no part in the work of the Holy Spirit. Nowhere in the Gospel is there any guarantee that if you walk with the Holy Spirit, that people will respond to you with love and treat you well, rather the reverse, whatever demons there are raging against your integrity will persecute you even more.

But the Gospel does say, and this I repeat to myself every day - "no CREATED THING can ever come between you and the love of God, not even if you are attacked even unto death" - I will find the chapter and verse for you, but I expect you know it already - I think its in Matthew.

This is what helps me get through the bad times.

Thank you for your post - you have good things to say.

LIR

Hey LIR,

I am slow at responding mainly because I have difficulties putting what is in my head down on paper. This response is mainly to your September 7 post.

I will be probably sound very judging here, and I probably have no right to say what I am going to say, because I do not know you well enough to make these kind of assumptions, but I was impressed (by self or God – who knows) to say these things, and I have a deep desire to try and help you see what I have recently seen. So please accept my apology upfront, especially if I am way off.

Warning: I have read through what I have written and noticed my thoughts are not to clear and what I am saying is more or less a shotgun approach.

One thing I will say is that I may have misled you into believing that I am a Bible buff. Sadly to say, I am familiar with many scripture verses because of my background, but I do not know the passage locations. I use an online bible to search the locations for me. (http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/kjv/)

I have printed out your recent posts and read through them, and I could feel your pain, anxiety, and frustration about your H, so much that it chokes me. I can feel the tremendous burden you are carrying on your shoulders. This is not your fight. This is your husband’s fight with God. You have no control over him and will do little to change his mind or influence him in any way. Please for your sake, LET GO. This is too much of a burden for you to bear. God is there to take this burden from you.

It is my impression from your posts, (but I could be wrong) that you analyze and judge your H's every move and act according to the "messages" you interpret him to be sending. Your H has a judge and will be held accountable for his sins one day. We are all sinners and should not focus on others sin because if you look, you will find.

Stop analyzing his every action. Stop trying to figure out what he is thinking or what motives he has. This is not significant and will torture you and force you to dwell on the negative. As is said in Phil 4:8, “Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.” Your thoughts sow seeds for your feelings about your H and how you react and interact with him on a daily basis. I am sure that if I can sense your pain, bitterness, and anxiety in your writing, your H can also sense this. I think therefore I am, and I am what I think.

It appears as though you are harboring quite a bit of bitterness about your H’s past actions and affairs. These will continue to come back and haunt you until you are able to on your knees before God turn all of this over and ask for forgiveness for the bitterness. Although this bitterness is understandable, it drives a wedge between God and us at a time we need him the most.
It is interesting how the Holy Spirit works in our lives. The main purpose of the Holy Spirit is to “reprove the world of sin righteousness and judgment” [John 16:8]. When we are close to God, we are in tune with what the Holy Spirit is saying as far as correcting our actions. As we grief the Holy Spirit by not listening to what he is saying, the Holy Spirit stops speaking as loudly probably because we have hardened our hearts to what the Spirit is saying or the He quits speaking to us. This is when God may step in to wake us up and try to get our attention, or he may just raise his protective hands on our life as he did with Job, and let us bear the fruit of our seeds.

One thing I have learned is that if you put your faith and trust in people, they will always fail you. Put your faith and trust in God. Expect that people will fail you and wrong you and hurt you regardless of how kind you are and how close you are to God.

Putting perspective on the hideous act, adultery is just another sin in God's book. Even Jesus spoke to the Pharisees because of their preoccupation with following the Law and said "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. [Mat 5:27 & 28]." Do not get me wrong; adultery is one of the worst things that a spouse can do to another spouse. I can testify of that and the feelings. However, there are worse things that a spouse can do.

I can tell you what changed my heart about my situation. One night, when my WW was out, I got out some old sermon tapes. I started listening to a sermon and God got all over me. I believe he spoke to my heart through the sermon. As the preacher said about his own situation, “I have tried everything, but I have not tried God.” It all clicked. I was on this website, read many books, tried to DO many things to change my situation, but I did not try God. Yes I prayed and read the Bible, but I did not turn everything over to God. I was worried I would loose my WW. I had tremendous anxiety that seemed unabated. I could not focus on anything other than the MB forum. You see, I did not have FAITH in GOD. I was trying to fix myself, my wife, and my life. I read in Mathew 6:

[25] Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
[26] Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
[27] Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
[28] And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
[29] And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
[30] Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
[31] Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
[32] (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
[33] But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
[34] Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

This has not been a night and day change, but slow over around two weeks. I thank God for all of my blessings and the anxiety, fear, pain, anger, and all have nearly vanished. I have “flash backs” now and then, but I try to immediately take it back to God.

Do you feel that your H is a blessing from God? This is very important in my thinking about my situation. My WW is a blessing to me regardless of what she is doing. I am overjoyed and blessed of God just for her to be near me.

Oh well, I ramble on and probably make no sense.

<small>[ September 10, 2002, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: allforlove ]</small>

WOW,

(added note, I posted about the same time as AFL and had not read his post when I wrote this)
There is a lot there. In fact, you should print out those last two big posts and take them to the MC when you start to go. Will save you 3 or 4 hours trying to explain your point of view.

What a great summary of what is going on. My first thought when I read it was "they need to be going to MC."

Next, I thought, " well, there is a lot that could be done even if not in MC."

LIR, you are doing well to stay and work on things. You are very brave and have a lot of grit. Not that I think you should have quit, but many would have. I have a lot of respect for you.

I am afraid this one is going to take a lot of thought ( and I think slowly) so I will come back. Most of all, I want to be careful that I don't say more than I should - for I am not a counselor and I don't want to error.

Interesting discussion about God's care for us. Perhaps I will share what I believe.
This earth and the things we go through here have been described as a refiners fire. ( see the book of Malachi) We have all kinds of experiences, both bad and good, and God doesn't always stop the bad. What he does do is turn it to our good in the end if we stick with him. I believe he has our best interest at heart when he does that. How could we ever grow if he took away all our problems? As we ( in the USA ) remember the events in New York City last year at this time, many ask again, "how could a loving God permit this to happen." I hate dealing with the bad too, but I tend to think "how could he take away the very things that make us into what we want to be." I think sometimes he does intervene for us, prevent accidents, warn us, etc. But in many cases we benefit from natural consequences so he lets them come.

Where in LA? My wife was raised in Whittier, CA.

LIR, I will think some more and come back.

<small>[ September 10, 2002, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

So much to post and so little time!

Zach'smom and C - I appreciated your posts and just haven't had the opportunity to reply or to get over to your posts - believe me, I want to!

I am at work, with just a few minutes - some important things have happened - important in that I have tried to talk about a difficult thing in a non-confrontational way - felt I got an acceptable response.

To allforlove - yes, you are right - I know I concentrate too much on his every hidden thought, and this is part of what I am working on in myself, trying to shift my focus away from what he might be doing/thinking/feeling, to doing constructive things for myself - letting go in other words. However, I love my H, and this is an ongoing process - I cannot just stop paying attention to what is going on with him, and I am trying to bring things more out in the open without the rancour and danger there was before.

Along these lines, on Tues, we had lunch alone together at home, and I brought up a difficult subject. We have friends in the South of France - I have mentioned the wife before (not our Christian friend) - I will call the wife in this case The Bohemian. She is someone I have never liked - she is smiling, but knifes you in the back - manipulative - and she is more interested in being friends with my H than with me. Its too long a story to go into - suffice to say that this couple have serious abusive dynamics in their R, and I believe the wife secretly does not like me because she can see that I am a strong person who is refusing to suffer what she has chosen to endure. She is the person I got into a heated conversation with on the phone about a month ago - well a week after that, a letter arrived for my H from her. Back in Feb, she had called and got me on the phone - it was a BAD time for me and I probably said more than I should have. What she wanted at that time was for my H to "check up on her 21-yr old daughter who is working as a chef in London" - could my H possibly "take her under his wing like a fatherly uncle?" - well, IMHO this would be like giving Dracula the keys to the blood bank - and I said so - I said we had been having problems, that my H had fallen in love with two young women in the past year, and that particular favour was something I would appreciate if she did not ask him. She wanted to give my H her daughter's mobile no. I asked her not to. Later she sent me a card saying perhaps I should get some sexy underwear - that way, when my H went off to make love to other women, at least he would have nice memories of me. At my most charitable, I think she was trying to be helpful. After all, she is quite "bohemian".

Anyway, she called a month ago and asked how things were going - she has been trying to get a hold of my H. I said things were better - we were both in counselling and my H was handling his anger problems - that took us into the arena of talking about abuse - (she is abused by her H) - she got more and more heated with me that I was the one who was not accepting of him, and that I antagonized him, even by turning away and not looking at him when he was angry with me. A pretty screwed up woman, if you ask me. Anyway, I had had enough of her covert criticisms and my voice raised, although I never abused her. It was not a happy conversation and she got off the phone without apologizing to me. I can't stand this woman. She is trouble.

So she sent this letter a week later.

Well, I snooped the other day - sorry! and I found it, and what did it have inside? Her daughter's mobile no. Need I say more? Is this woman "my friend"? Clearly not.

So I brought this up over lunch on Tues. I confessed to my H that back in Feb I had told her that he had "fallen in love" with OW - I know that was embarassing to him to hear me say that. I pressed on saying I wasn't concerned about that right now, I wanted to talk about the friend in question. I said that maybe I shouldn't have told her that but that she had asked me if she could give him her daughter's mobile no. I confessed to him that I had asked her not to. I told him a month ago after she called that she had been angry on the phone and we had had a row. At that time he had said he knew they were wierd and that I shouldn't take them too seriously. I then said, well, I saw that she wrote to you a week after that and I have wondered what she said. I knew the letter had a slip of paper in it containing her daughter's phone no. He said he would go and get it for me. He did, but the letter had the slip of paper taken out. I read it and then said, "and I have always wondered whether or not she sent you M's phone no.?" Moment of truth. He said "yes, I think she did." He then said, "What this means is that you don't trust me." I said "well, I'm not saying that you are going to go and have an affair with M (her daughter), I am just trying to get to the bottom of The Bohemian's behaviour." I pointed out to him that I had asked her not to do this, and that she had expressly gone against my specific request. I said that this showed a fundamental disrespect for me. I also pointed out that if she wanted someone to look after her daughter, she could have asked me, or she could have asked for both of us to look after her, but she specifically wanted HIM to look after her, which I thought was odd. I stressed that I was not accusing HIM of anything. The important thing that I wanted him to see was that this woman was not my friend and I thought she was actively trying to meddle in our R behind my back. I pointed out that I had never done or said anything to harm this woman and that if she didn't like me, it was not because I had been offensive to her. My H got very uncomfortable, naturally, but I tried to steer away from any talk of the past. He said I was being negative. I said I was not, I was being honest in talking about a difficult subject and trying to clear the air of old baggage. I said that I was not accusing him of anything. He said "well, it just shows that you just don't trust me." I said, "well, what do you think that you can do to try to help me trust you again?" He couldn't think of anything. He just thinks I should trust him and it hurts him that I don't.

We stopped before the conversation spiralled out of control. Later, we kissed again, and were friendly again. Later in the day, I went to him and said, "I want to tell you something - the things you have done which hurt me - I want you to know, if I haven't said this before, that I do forgive you." He was just going out, but he smiled and kissed me and said "I know."

Well - tomorrow I have to babysit for a friend and will be driving home alone at 1am - on a country road from one of the villages. I think I should have the mobile with me, as a precaution, so I am going to ask him if I can have it, right before I leave, and see what happens.

I am wondering what to say, if he says no - I think I should say - "what could be more important to you than the safety of your wife? If you can't do this, how can you expect me to trust you?"

LIR

^^bump^^

LIR,

Please STOP!!!!!

I must implore you as to what your philisophical (principle) basis of life is. More pointedly, why is it that an almighty, all knowing, all powerful God created mankind? Secondly, what is GOD's purpose for you in that grand scheme? These questions ARE the most important questions any christian can ask. How is what you are currently doing fit in with these principals?

Follow up question to these:
If you were to die today and God asked, "why should I let you into the kingdom of heaven," what would you say?

Principals and goals should guide actions. If the action does not match the goal, this is failure. Success is actions in accordance with your goals and principals. Ask yourself: What is it that I seek to obtain by my action. This will help guide your actions. I will not tell you what to do. That would be of little help to you.

I found the following passage helpful. If we profess to know God, should we not act differently then the world?

Mathew 5:
[43] Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
[44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
[45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
[46] For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
[47] And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

I have noticed an interesting pattern of women that are common to both you and your husband. Is it fair to say that both your husband and you do not have a common female friend? What does that say and do your actions testify of this? I am sure your understanding of this situation leads you to believe that lack of trust is the foremost challenge you have, but I am afraid to say that more may exist just beneath the surface. Once again, I may be wrong, and I am in no condition to judge (I have huge trees in my own eyes of which I am overburdened to remove) I see jelousy, envy, covetousness, hate, and disrespect of your husband. It is one thing not to trust, it is entirely different thing to belittle those based upon the lack of trust.

But trust is an entirely different issue all together. It is unwise to trust others. We are all sinners and are fully capabale of evil acts to one another.

Psalms 146:3 - Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

Proverbs 3:5,6 - Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

When you say you do not trust your husband. I say that is wise. Your H is not God and can not be trusted and can not be expected to act righteous. However, it is unwise to set your own rules and regulations by which you will accept your husband. That is judging and unfair. True love should come without any expectations of righteousness. God loves us dispite our wickedness, so should we also love one another.

Some say they are Christians of which their fruits bear whitness of the truth. Are they the fruits of the Holy Spirit or are they the fruits of man.

God has given you the Holy Spirit to guide your actions. I pray that the Holy Spirit touch your heart and make it easy for you to make the RIGHT decision.

<small>[ September 13, 2002, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: allforlove ]</small>

Well, here goes,

I have divided this into sections ( to make it easier for me to keep track of it, not so much for you.)
In general I think you both should continue with IC. When you can, start MC. It should be much easier to work these things out with a mediator. I hope you get a good councilor, there are a lot of bad ones out there. I suggest the two of you getting together and agreeing beforehand what you both need from the C and then make sure you get it, or find another. I think you will be able to discuss this part ( what is needed from C ) rationally by the time he is willing to go.

I am going to touch a little on what AFL said because I want to clarify my position without having to go back and forth about it. We are making judgments about things here, and I think they are necessary ones. I don't think a doctor could operate on someone to save their life without making a judgment about what was wrong, and what needed to be done. I think that is the kind of thing we deal with. You have to have a starting point - where are WE and where do WE need to go. I believe you have included yourself in the diagnosis and in the operation as you seek the health of your marriage, and I think you are correct as far as you have gone. I don't believe you have been saying " My husband is bad," or " My H's female friend is bad." I think you are saying that the things they are doing and saying and how you and H react to them are not always helping your marriage recover. I don't know how you could go on with recovery and not deal with those things or at least you would have to modify yours and H's reaction to deal with the other peoples behaviors. Even better, you have come here and asked for help, " here is what I see happening, what does everyone else think." After all the feedback, especially if it conflicts, you have to make another judgment about what to do, either that, or just sit and do nothing.

The other reason for judgment is safety. You have been dealing with abuse. It has a name, and certain behaviors that define it. You have to protect yourself and your children from it. In fact, I believe God will hold you partly responsible for emotional damage to your children if you could do something about it, and don't.

So, when you outline "problems", I think you have to do this to know where to go and what to work on. I think if we were all sitting around the living room on a Sunday afternoon it would be fun to discuss the scriptures that go along with this, and how it refers to judgments, and one of the most famous storied about not judging, that of " The Good Samaritan." But I am behind and kind of stealing this time from work so I will just go on.

Privacy / Affairs / Trust
This seems to be all rolled into one. He thinks he needs privacy. You have trust problems from his affairs, and your own past issues make them harder to deal with. This is something I think you can start to work on now. I believe he really does have problems that make complete recovery impossible. I don't know just what he understands about it, that is, I can't tell if he is doing some of it on purpose, or if it is just the factors we already discussed. This is where communication and honesty come in. You need to find ways to talk without argument - from either one of you. I think we both agree you are right that you should have the pin # and about other things, but so what? I could go the soft way around but I think you can follow me. You think he should give it, he doesn't, and you are right. So, you can go for the big D, apply pressure ( which you have tried) or find another way. To top it off, there is no guarantee that what you try will work, so you may be back here after much effort is expended. You are afraid, and rightly so. I will expand on this in the communication section.

Family Friend (s)
It looks like you are dealing with a H that should be sharing intimate and personal things (counselor said this and that) with you, and is instead sharing with friend first. I don't believe this is right, but I think other things need to be fixed first. Some things should never be discussed outside of marriage. But, anything that he can discuss with others, should be with you first and NEVER should there be things that he will say to others that he won't share with you. There is a lot more to this one than we can do anything about here, today.

Better to get ground rules in place for all future discussions first, and practice them on things that are a little less volatile. You could say " I feel hurt when you will talk to her about ____________ and not me," but I still think you need to make sure you are safe before you can be that honest with this subject.

Communication / Radical Honesty / set up future discussions
From Aug. 29th
First, I did not prepare him for my needing to talk. I would just let my fears build, and with my fear, my resentment and depression, and anxiety about his reaction would grow. So I would lay lots of stuff on him at once - naturally he would feel attacked. I am still not sure how to approach talking about the things that still bother me, but I feel that with time, he will be able to discuss things with me more openly.

It's true, when I look back on it, that I have tried very hard to influence or control his behavior. But not in blatantly obvious ways. More by choosing to say certain things to try to get a certain reaction, then when I didn't get the reaction I wanted, feeling angry and feeling that HE had failed ME.

Sept. 8th
He detected the note of frustration in my voice and got defensive. We exchanged words, and he got up and told me I didn't have to do it, to go to bed if I was tired. One thing led to another, and I got started on heavier things - I can't even remember now - but that's what happens. I have so much pent up inside me that has never been talked about, I get upset about something small and then the other stuff comes bubbling to the surface.

I believe you need to find a way to have those discussions and get it all out. Some things now, some things later with MC. Much of the bad feelings you have are there because you are not honest with him. He doesn't known your feelings, and you won't tell him, so he can't react, or help. Now, this is his fault and we both know it. He has trained you to shut up so you won't get yelled at and emotionally abused, but as I said, so what? A wound that is full of infection will never heal properly. You need to get it all out.

I suggest you have a talk first to "set the stage." If it was me, I would probably do it something like this.
H, can I explain some things, and talk about something that is on my mind?
I bet he says yes !

H, you know that over the last few months I have sometimes been angry with you and said things I should not have said?

Well, I have been thinking about this, and trying to understand what is going on in my mind and why I feel this way.

Explain -

1. Your history and feelings associated with father leaving.
2. Feelings from A, what triggers are, how they come without warning.
3. Sometimes a trigger sets you off, and you need help getting out of those feelings.
4. Talking to him about your feelings helps you to feel better.
5. Will he help you by talking about some of them? ( bet he says yes again)
6. Ask his forgiveness for the things you have said and done to hurt him.

Perhaps in this same discussion, perhaps the first other one after he agrees to help.

7. Why you don't trust him. (even though you are trying to.)
Don't lie and say you do, we both know you don't.
AND, how he can help you trust him again.
His sadness at lack of trust, and how you want to make him happy.

When you are done, you can say again for emphasis-
"So, H, in the future, when I need help, will you talk me through these things so I don't have these bad feelings?

Now, if you can do this, it should set the stage for everything you say in the future.
List the things here you want to discuss. - I will try a few
Trust
pin #
all things he keeps private ( list them all)
why it bothers you.
Because of these things, your fear that another A could start up, or be ongoing.
his family
his friend
Prayer and Bible Reading

Now, I have a few suggestions as guidelines.
1. Stick to one thing at a time.
2. Leave if you or he starts to get angry.
3. Often repeat reasons you need to talk.
4. Don't say you agree with him if you don't. Say you will just have to disagree and perhaps talk about it later, and leave it. DON'T TRY TO PROVE YOUR POINT TO HIM, JUST LEAVE IT.
5. Say this stuff like you would say it, this is just a rough outline to help in planning.

I know I left a lot out, I wish I could have gone into more detail about some things. . Would have liked to have taken more time and re-worded some of it but I can't now, and wanted to get it posted.

If anything is not clear, please ask.
These are just suggestions, you don't need to do any of this if you don't think it would work for you. I was the one that started this talk in our home. The first time she said " I have been hurt too much to talk about this now, I don't even want to start." Or words to that effect. It took two more months to have the discussion about having discussions. Now it is much easier. I am happier because I can talk about my fears and what's on my mind, and she is happier because I don't get angry when we talk.

This is really rough, not finished and I have to go now. Will try and do better next time.

SS

Dear ss -

What can I say? You are a jewel - to grasp so much about this situation and to understand that despite all of this I REALLY LOVE my husband.

I am going to have to print this out and digest it carefully before I approach him.

It is true that I have kept my own anxieties about the deeper issues to myself - a form of lying - out of fear of the consequences. I know that I need to be more honest with him, but I am afraid that he will turn and run, feeling if she still feels that way after all these years, what is the point? I want him to see that I still love him, even after all these years of doubt.

I am slowly chipping away with the pin no.
On Friday night, I had to babysit for a friend and knew that I would be coming home late, so I planned to ask him if I could take the mobile with me that night. He called me in the morning from work to ask me to pick up our son from school, because he unexpectedly had to stay late. He said "I have to be brief because there isn't much time left on the phone..." He buys cards for the mobile on a pay as you go system - so when the time runs out he has to get another card. So when the time came, as I was getting ready to go out the door to go babysitting, I asked him if I could take the phone with me. He had his back to me with his head turned to the side, and I saw his face change to one of anger and frustration - the "do I have to go through this again" face - teeth clench, eyes get bigger - the "how dare she pry, how dare she spy, how dare she suspect me, how dare she ask" face. That's the way I see it.

But he turned away and I turned away. I was in the other room. I persisted and said "I'm not going to be driving home until after 1 in the morning and I would feel safer if I could have it with me. That is what we bought it for." By this time, he was being nice. He said "Of course, that is what we bought it for. But it doesn't have any time left on it. You know that. If you remember I called you earlier and it was running out of money - it doesn't have enough to make a call." I said, "Yes, I remember you telling me that. Well, I guess I can't use it tonight then. So perhaps I will call you when I leave there to let you know when I will be coming home. " He said, "Don't do that! You'll wake me up when I'm trying to get some sleep! What good will that do?" I said, "It lets you know that I am leaving their house and you know its 15-20 minutes away, so if I don't show up for an hour, you will start to worry. Anyway, I've gotta run." And I left. I don't think that he was lying about the mobile being out of money, but again, I feel like he squeaked out of that one by the skin of his teeth. And it also hurt me that his immediate reaction was that he would rather sleep than know whether his wife was safe or not. This is an example of ways that he is selfish.

The atmosphere between us at present is still largely positive. We had a discussion about our YS the other day which could have been bad, but seems to have gone well. H came home from work stressed (the same day, Friday) and "dumped" (in my opinion) on YS (he is 6) - YS needed to do violin practice, should not be watching television - could not do vp in the am, bcos he had to finish homework he had not done the night b4. Homework was not done, bcos I was sick that night. H was feeling frustrated and saying so to YS. YS sat on the sofa and cried under his F standing over him. YS felt like he was being blamed and shouted at for things that weren't his fault. YS was right - mom and dad had not handled him getting his stuff done, so it was not his fault - he is too young to be responsible for deciding when he should do things. Mom and Dad failed in their responsibility to him. I see that, but my H doesn't seem to - IMO he should express his frustration with me, and not to YS. But if I were to stop him, this would be "interfering" - he has been very particular that I not interfere when he is talking to the children. This makes me uneasy, as sometimes, like then, I feel they need protection from him. On this occasion, I asked him if he could talk to me privately. He didn't want to - at first he stopped and refused, then he came into the kitchen and closed the door and prepared himself to listen. I said that I knew he was frustrated and stressed out, that YS had not had enough time to get the things done he needed to get done, since I had been sick the night b4. I praised him for helping YS to do his homework in the am, and said I supported him in getting YS to watch less TV and to do his vp. But, I said, you are expressing your frustration to YS and making him cry. And it is not HIS fault these things aren't done. He doesn't understand, and you are making him feel bad about things that he doesn't understand. H said that yes, he was frustrated and that these were normal feelings he had. I said of course they were, but his feelings were not YS responsibility. He accepted that and the conversation ended there. Things have been OK since then.

I am going to ask for the mobile again tomorrow am - I am taking YS and going to visit my aunt, who is flying into Heathrow, and has a long layover, so we will be able to spend the afternoon and evening with her. It means I will be driving back at night, an hour and a half drive. I think I ought to be able to take the mobile with me. Will see.

My H is also not in any counselling right now - I asked him and he said his counsellor had to go into the hospital, and he doesn't know if she is well enough to start again, although he has an appt for the 23rd of Sept. He has not got back to me about MC. I printed out "Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts" and asked him if he would take a look at it and get back to me, but he hasn't had a chance to read it. It's still sitting there. The feeling I get is that H is trying to make changes, but also would be happy if everything just went totally back to the way it was, and he could go on without anymore fuss and bother. Get on with his life as he was and forget about it. He says I am being "negative" when I bring things up. I know that his female friend has a thing about being "negative" and has said that I should not "point the finger" - so I feel trapped. This is where her influence is a real barrier and impediment to us talking about things.

Well, I have to go now, but will come back this afternoon.

ss - you don't know how grateful I am that you have taken the time to look at this. Thank you.

LIR

By the way, ss - I have lived all over the LA basin and have family all over there as well - lived off Sunset Blvd when I was born, moved to Long Beach, then San Pedro, then Laguna Beach - parents always trying to escape the smog. Then as an adult, lived in Irvine, Costa Mesa, Santa Ana, Tustin, North Hollywood, Pasadena, Eagle Rock - have family in Arcadia, Azusa, West Covina, La Habra Heights - lotsa friends - miss the sunshine!

Remember the Whittier earthquake? I was living in Pasadena at the time. That was not so fun! Don't miss earthquakes!

LIR

OK, quick one here -

I asked for the cellphone this morning because I am driving up to Heathrow to see my aunt and will be coming back late - and I will have YS with me. I asked him 15 min b4 I had to leave for work. Give him time to think about it.

I asked again two minutes b4 I had to leave and he said "Sure, but pick it up when you come home for lunch - I will give it a new pincode."

So I had to accept that.

Of course, it looks like he needed time to do whatever he had to do to erase anything that he didn't want me to see. If he erased phone numbers that he wants to keep, I think he will write them down somewhere on hard copy - he doesn't have the greatest memory in the world.

If he is still receiving msgs from OW, he would have to msg her (them) to warn them not to contact him today. Maybe this will be a LB for them - not exactly honest John here, are we? OW2 was only slightly uneasy about colluding in lies, and then only at first. After he told her I was "a sick person", she happily continued to meet him in secret.

On the other hand, it could be that his A (s) are over, and there was stuff there that he just didn't want me to get the wrong idea about - or to hurt me. OW1 tel no. is still there, but she is a professional contact - I expected this. OW2 tel no. is gone. French daughter of friend's tel. no. is there.

What I am trying to do here is to reclaim the territory that is rightfully mine, without alienating him.

I am going to ask again to have it tomorrow night, since I go out to rehearsal and come home late, and this time, I will not give him any warning.

LIR

LadyinRed,

Have you ever thought of using the "reverse babble" technique? (Not in the sense of conversation) By that I mean, obtain your own mobile phone and your own credit cards and act as if it were the most normal thing in the world. Place a "pin" on your mobile and hold your cards close to you without any offer of disclosure. That might possibly make him see his own actions as being inappropriate (especially if he does not have anything to hide). He sounds as if he might simply need to be in control of everything and everyone around him, and that is the way in which he gets it.

JMHO