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Thanks for the tip on the book, I will look into it.
I apoligize again for not givng a better explination. If you read it again, I was trying to use this as an example of the best way to approach her. I am sure you would agree that the best way is not to call her fat, or say oink, oink. We can tell the truth with kindness - and that is usually best, but not always.
And no, I would not say something like that. I have never said anything but that she was the most beautiful girl I have ever seen, and I don't intend to change that.
She does walk 1 to 3 miles a day and has for years, but that alone wasn't doing it. I will look into the book and thank you for the tip. She is not afraid to exercise, she ran the local marathon the year before she had the twins ( 9 years old now.)
Now, I am so happy for you. Not because things are perfect ( won't be in this world) but because you have hope. This is not going to be without pain, but I see a lot of hope for both of you.
Don't let setbacks get to you. ( OK, all of us do sometimes, and I admit that I do too.) What I am saying is to try and take the attitude that if one thing doesn't work, try another. If you ask in one way and he refuses, give more background so he understands, and ask another way. W and I both want to make it work, but still some days I have to quit and think on things for a few days before I come back and try again.
Never enough time, need to go myself.
I am so very glad that you have hope now. I expect you to have a great weekend. I expect that I will also.
SS <small>[ October 04, 2002, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>
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I apoligize again for not givng a better explination. If you read it again, I was trying to use this as an example of the best way to approach her. I am sure you would agree that the best way is not to call her fat, or say oink, oink. We can tell the truth with kindness - and that is usually best, but not always. And no, I would not say something like that. I have never said anything but that she was the most beautiful girl I have ever seen, and I don't intend to change that.
Please don't apologize - it was me who missed the point completely - I got it the first time that you were giving me examples, and believe me, I never thought that you would say something so cruel to your wife (even joking) - never - that just didn't sound like you - I knew you were using an example - it was my mistake that in my sort of stunned state, I thought you were also looking for ideas as to how to talk about the issue - sorry I missed the point, and I hope I haven't offended you.
Please know that I really value the advice you have given me and the time it has taken you to try to help me - it HAS helped me. I think my H and I both have the best intentions towards each other, but as time goes on, I am seeing more clearly how the resentful feelings we have both built up, are affecting our ability to communicate. I also have had a lot to learn about him as a man, and how to "read" his reactions. I have been interpreting his reactions and actions through my own "filter" and have often not given him the credit he deserves. Added to that, he DOES have his own serious issues about privacy and independence which have deeply affected our marriage. What I am trying to do is to tackle the obstacles which are a source of resentment for ME - the joint finances issue, the joint credit card (now handled), the privacy issue (starting to address this), the anger management. I know that he probably has things that he doesn't like about me which may be a source of resentment for HIM - if I knew what those were, I could begin to try to do something about them. I have tried to talk to him, but he just says, "I don't spell out your faults for you!"
Communication is an on-going journey of learning, and enlightenment. We are slowly getting better at it. But we are still struggling to reach agreement.
Just before he went out just now, he brought up the joint account issue himself - because he wants to buy petrol for the car he drives - he thinks he should pay for the petrol for that car out of his own account, since he is the one who uses it most. He was trying to say that he doesn't think it is fair to me for all of my money to go into our joint account, and for all of my money to disappear on our joint expenses. He thinks we should each put a portion of our money in the joint account, and keep the rest to spend as we choose. I think the opposite. When he was talking he said "my money and your money" - and I said, "its not my money and your money - its our money - so your money is my money and my money is your money - that is what it means to be married". What he appears to want is to live together, pay for our joint expenses together, but otherwise be independent - he wants to be able to decide to spend (therefore do - take decisions about what he wants to do) without having to "ask permission". I can understand this reasoning, but to me it is faulty logic. It is based on the fear that the other person MIGHT put up an obstacle to what you want - it is trying to sidestep the issue of making joint decisions. It is not my idea of marriage, or of being equal partners. If I wanted to live with someone on that basis, I would not have chosen to get married, I would have just lived with them, and maintained my legal independence.
I am not sure how I am going to tackle this, but right now I am too tired. I appreciate that he is wanting to reach a solution to a problem that he sees is bothering me, though - and I am glad that he is showing willingness to talk about it. I will take that as positive.
Don't let setbacks get to you. ( OK, all of us do sometimes, and I admit that I do too.) What I am saying is to try and take the attitude that if one thing doesn't work, try another. If you ask in one way and he refuses, give more background so he understands, and ask another way. W and I both want to make it work, but still some days I have to quit and think on things for a few days before I come back and try again. Give more background so he understands. This is what I have to keep remembering - I forget that I have not explained myself, or laid the ground work for good understanding. I am going to have to train myself to do this.
I hope things are OK with you - again, I have appreciated so much your advice. I have the feeling that we are finally trying to get somewhere together. I honestly believe that this would not be happening were it not for what I have learned, and the support I have received here on this forum.
At some point, I want to introduce my H to the value of this forum, but I don't feel ready yet - I don't think he is ready yet - I am afraid that he is still in a place where he would get mad, and take offense at what I say on the forum, even though what I do here is trying to get help for myself, and for us. I love my H and feel we still have a good chance, and don't want to jeopardize what we have achieved so far.
So, thanks again for taking time. Hope you have a good weekend - I hope for a quieter time for awhile!
LIR
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Hey LIR,
Thanks for you help.
I hope things are going better for you. I wonder why it is that we sacrifice so much for those who we love to get very little if anything in return. I have a vague idea why Jesus cried tears of blood prior to his crucifix. It is so hard to Love and not be Loved.
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Hi, It's probably about 6:00 AM Monday in the UK right now, but only close to 11:00 Sunday night here. I usually don't post much on weekends but today was not as busy as usual, so here goes.
sorry I missed the point, and I hope I haven't offended you. I still wish I would have done a better job with my words, and no, you haven't offended. A neighbor that I once lived by gave me this bit of information.
" He who is offended when no offense is intended is a fool. and He who is offended even if an offense is intended, is still a fool."
It has saved me lots of troubles and worry as I have tried to follow this advice. The funny thing is that I have found over the years that the things I really want to take offense at are usually something my W does or says. I believe it is the enemy causing these feelings, but I'll go on. I don't know how I get side tracked like this.
Anyhow, you would have a hard time offending me, as I know that is not your intent at all.
I think my H and I both have the best intentions towards each other, but as time goes on, I am seeing more clearly how the resentful feelings we have both built up, are affecting our ability to communicate. We sometimes see each others weaknesses as something done on purpose to make life hard on us. We also think that if the other person really cared, then they "wouldn't do this to me." The reality lots of times is that we don't even realize we are causing harm to the other person and they take offense anyway. I can see that both of you sometimes feel this way. Perhaps my quote on offense fits better than I first thought .
I also have had a lot to learn about him as a man, and how to "read" his reactions. I have been interpreting his reactions and actions through my own "filter" and have often not given him the credit he deserves. Added to that, he DOES have his own serious issues about privacy and independence which have deeply affected our marriage. You will be working on this for each other all of your lives. As I have read and studied these last few years, I can see that we need practice tolerance also. It would be especially hard for you now after the two EA's and the other issues. Sure we need to work on meeting needs, and we need to stop annoying behaviors but since we love our spouse we need to have tolerance while these adjustments are made. You have tolerated these things that bother you for a long time but the EA issues took away some of that patience you used to exercise and you wanted a resolution - or to be free from the pain Perhaps now, after a small success, you will be able to proceed without needing something to happen RIGHT NOW.
What I am trying to do is to tackle the obstacles which are a source of resentment for ME - the joint finances issue, the joint credit card (now handled), the privacy issue (starting to address this), the anger management. I believe ( and there is a scripture somewhere that says this) that when we know that something is wrong, and we do it, it is sin. I wonder how much the issues you have with him are the result of his upbringing and environment. He may think he is doing it right, and the way he was trained to do it. If so, it will be a long process to change things and he probably won't respond well to some of what you suggest. His emotions will be involved and just using logic doesn't always work in this case. This is one of the reasons I recommend MC on these issues. He can say no to you, but he almost has to look at what the MC says if you are going on a regular basis. You have come a long way, you will have a much better chance getting your point of view across to the MC now than you would have even a month ago. I believe you can use this (below) process now. This is what I think This is why I think it. This is what I want to do about it. This is what I just said ( summarize the preceding stuff)
Or like this quote I heard so long ago that I can't remember who said it
"Tell um what you're going to tell um. Tell it to um. Tell um what you just told um. "
I know that he probably has things that he doesn't like about me which may be a source of resentment for HIM - if I knew what those were, I could begin to try to do something about them. I have tried to talk to him, but he just says, "I don't spell out your faults for you!" Here is another very valuable piece of information, If you wonder why he used the word "horrible." Sounds like has been raised to believe that you don't come out and tell another person what they are doing wrong. Sounds like when you started talking about him, you were doing something he had been taught not to do. Going back to the dialog about my wife's diet - there are ways to bring things up that don't sound so confrontational. I believe that some effort and thought in that direction for you will help him get through it much easier. Especially if you continue to remind him that you love him and are trying to improve your marriage and make your love stronger.
I have to remind my wife in many of the "heavy conversations" we have that I am not attacking her, that I have an issue and just want to discuss it and see if we can find a way to work it out so we can both be happy. I did again Friday night on a date with her. It went like this, " W, I am not trying to make you look bad, or say I don't love you, or hurt you in any way. Remember that we need to discuss these things until we can work out a way for both of us to be happy with the solution, and right now, you are happy but I am not, so I just wanted to talk about it some more." My W believes in POJA now, but it took some times of me finding a happy solution to a bad problem before she would believe it could work. She thought at first that it meant I could veto everything she wanted to do. I have since shown her that because I love her, I could be very creative in making things work for her and she is seeing the benefit of it.
Communication is an on-going journey of learning, and enlightenment. You have that part down pretty good, and said it better than I could have.
We are slowly getting better at it. But we are still struggling to reach agreement. Just before he went out just now, he brought up the joint account issue himself - because he wants to buy petrol for the car he drives - he thinks he should pay for the petrol for that car out of his own account, since he is the one who uses it most. He was trying to say that he doesn't think it is fair to me for all of my money to go into our joint account, and for all of my money to disappear on our joint expenses. He thinks we should each put a portion of our money in the joint account, and keep the rest to spend as we choose. I think the opposite. When he was talking he said "my money and your money" - and I said, "its not my money and your money - its our money - so your money is my money and my money is your money - that is what it means to be married". What he appears to want is to live together, pay for our joint expenses together, but otherwise be independent - he wants to be able to decide to spend (therefore do - take decisions about what he wants to do) without having to "ask permission". I can understand this reasoning, but to me it is faulty logic. It is based on the fear that the other person MIGHT put up an obstacle to what you want - it is trying to sidestep the issue of making joint decisions.
This whole thing is about POJA. I could explain what we do with our money. And we are pretty happy with it, but it is really about POJA and in a way he is right. If you both have to agree about your spending, and he wanted to purchase something that didn't make much sense, he would have try and justify it to you. Often they can't find a reason for what they want, except that they want it. Are you willing to give this one a couple of years and work on more basic stuff like the POJA concept ? Or do you already have a plan to get this across to him? This is one of the things I believe would be much easier with MC as a facilitator.
BTW, my wife and I put all our money into our joint account except we both get some spending money ( the same amount for each of us every paycheck) that we don't have to account for. We can get what ever we want with it, whenever we want. That helps us both think we get some freedom of spending. We estimate how much gas money we need and we each get that out also. If we want to do something beyond normal driving, we use our spending money. The reasoning behind this is that we don't make enough for us to drive as much as we would like, and if we do extra trips, we pay for it ourselves, and don't tax the family budget. Family vacations are budgeted in to the yearly scheme of things and paid for from joint account.
It is not my idea of marriage, or of being equal partners. If I wanted to live with someone on that basis, I would not have chosen to get married, I would have just lived with them, and maintained my legal independence I am not sure how I am going to tackle this, but right now I am too tired. I appreciate that he is wanting to reach a solution to a problem that he sees is bothering me, though - and I am glad that he is showing willingness to talk about it. I will take that as positive. Don't work on it when you are tired. I know you want to find a solution, but always be willing to leave it and come back. I am glad he is showing that he cares, you needed that. And it really looks positive to me that he will talk. You may get to the point where he thinks he has given and given and you still won't take his solution. He may start to get angry. Always be willing to say something like I said above to my wife. Reassure him that you love him and that you are sure that you can find a way to work it out. There is no reason to take an offense over a failure to agree, so don't do it. Don't let him do it either, use soft language to soften his heart and then come back to it later.
Give more background so he understands. This is what I have to keep remembering - I forget that I have not explained myself, or laid the ground work for good understanding. I am going to have to train myself to do this.
One of the reasons I come here is to be reminded. I hope I help others, but I get help I need too by reading what happens to others. I am reminded over and over again what happens if I don't meet needs, or if I LB. It is good incentive for me to continue improving our marriage. If you really love someone, you want to make them happy. That is why POJA works so well after it is understood. Some think it is a way to limit what the other does ( so I get my way, and they can't do what they want) We have found it to be a source of great freedom, because we love each other, we tend to go out or our way to find a solution that the other likes. I had to show this to my wife by finding solutions to problems she thought could not be solved. That is the background she needed to understand POJA. I took time to work out problems we had fought about for months. Then she finally said - " hey wait, POJA is not limiting like I thought, it is enabling, it lets you find solutions to stuff, not shut down the other person." So, yes, background........ I just tried to give you enough on POJA to help you see it a little better. Did it work? Not so much because I wanted you to get POJA, but because I wanted to use it as an example of background.
I hope things are OK with you - again, I have appreciated so much your advice. Things are OK, in fact, really good. W and I usually can't go a day with out making up, son is fine with me. And thank you. I always wonder if I do any good.
I have the feeling that we are finally trying to get somewhere together. I honestly believe that this would not be happening were it not for what I have learned, and the support I have received here on this forum. At some point, I want to introduce my H to the value of this forum, but I don't feel ready yet - I don't think he is ready yet - I am afraid that he is still in a place where he would get mad, and take offense at what I say on the forum, even though what I do here is trying to get help for myself, and for us. I love my H and feel we still have a good chance, and don't want to jeopardize what we have achieved so far. I often send my wife links to things here ( in e-mail) and she reads them but she really doesn't spend time otherwise, and she has no interest in posting. I have told her sometimes I feel she could really help in some cases ( you for one) but she kind of shrugs her shoulders and has never come to post. It may be that he will never really want to read here. I can't say why some do, and some don't. I would agree that now is not the time.
My W just called that it's bedtime for us, and it hurts her if I don't come when she says that, so I'll close, I'm sure I would have gone on for another 2 or 3 pages - but that's it for tonight. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
SS <small>[ October 07, 2002, 12:13 AM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>
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" He who is offended when no offense is intended is a fool. and He who is offended even if an offense is intended, is still a fool."
It has saved me lots of troubles and worry as I have tried to follow this advice. The funny thing is that I have found over the years that the things I really want to take offense at are usually something my W does or says. I believe it is the enemy causing these feelings, but I'll go on. Yes, I have heard this before, and I am glad you reminded me of it. And I know exactly what you mean about only taking offense at what your spouse says or does. I have also wondered about this - I don't know why this happens - partially because its actually very difficult to live with someone cheek by jowl when you are two different people, with different needs and goals.
Having just written that down, I look at it, and it doesn't look right - why should that be hard? It's only hard if one or the other, or both parties are fundamentally inconsiderate of the other, or selfishly looking after their own interests without taking their partner into account. I mean, my H snores a little now - he didn't used to and I don't know why he does now, because he isn't too fat, but he does. It wakes me up every night, but I put my earplugs in, and then we both go back to sleep happy, because I can sleep and he isn't being kicked all night. For me, as a wife and mother, I found it VERY difficult to meet the needs of husband and two very young children when he was working 7 days a week, and at least 5 nights a week, since I don't have family around - I have friends who would babysit once in awhile, but its not the same as having a sister or mother around who will come over and help you make dinner when the baby is sick, or bath the older one while you get dinner ready for H, who is going to rush in the door at 6 pm and have to be out again at 7:15. I felt that I got very little appreciation for being there for him - if all I accomplished was getting him his hot meal ready on time every night - sometimes at 9pm, several times a week, I think that was a lot. But there was never a night out from him, never a "would you like to go to a movie?", "how about an evening out?", not once - oh yes, there was one once - he took me to Paris for the day, and we had lunch there - but that was only because he had to go on a business trip and got a free ticket. There was not one single occasion where he booked to do something special for me or with me - he even said he would take me out for my birthday some years and then never got around to it. About four years ago, we finally went out for dinner - that's because my girlfriend gave us a voucher to her favourite restaurant, to MAKE us go. This is why I am so strung out about him and money. During this time, he controlled all the money because I was not working. Everyone said, "Why don't you just book the babysitter, and make the reservations?" You can't when you have no cash and no credit card and whenever I suggested it, there was always a reason why he couldn't.
OK, that was my ranting - I don't often whinge and rant like that, but that is the honest to God truth. That is a BIG reason why I had so much resentment bottled up inside, because I worked my F-ing a@@ off for nine years solid, without a single day off, and for what? So he could say "I'm sorry but my feelings for you have withered and I'm only staying because I don't want to cause any upheaval to the boys." (His actual words - August 2001). Really that's all he said to me by way of explanation.
Now I look at all of the above and think, "why am I remembering this, and why am I reviving these feelings?" Because I do think we have come so far - he is actively trying to pay attention to my needs as far as he can perceive them. But there is still no attempt to share "quality time" with me. I have learned the hard way that this is one of my top EN's but I haven't felt until just recently that he was in a place emotionally where he was WANTING to meet that need. Now that there is a light in our eyes when we look at each other again, I think we could probably "go out on a date" and not find it such an uncomfortable experience. I do think that not too long ago, it would have been too confrontational to have a meal out together, whereas we could just about handle a game of backgammon.
The thing is, you can see the "old stuff" rear its ugly head above. And this is where I think your "outside force" comes in - you and I are both Christians, and I DO believe that there is something out there that hates marriage and the love that is there in a good marriage. I can feel it - just there in those feelings above - something that starts to eat away at you just when things are going well, and you are feeling good about things - it starts small, an anxiety, or insecurity, a small voice that grows until its shouting in your ear and that's all you can hear. I do remember telling my H back in June 2001, when I found his first love letters to OW1 - "When the Devil wants to tempt you, he throws in your way something that looks like everything you've ever wanted, something irresistable, and there's only one problem, you have to turn your back and trample on everything you ever said you ever loved and everything you ever said you believed in."
But temptation is different for every person - for one person, its sexual, or emotional lust. For others, probably me right now, its the temptation to give weight to all the negative thoughts and resentments I have - or all the fears I have, which takes my creative energy away from finding a loving solution to my "challenge". So I am trying to say that I hear you on this one.
You have tolerated these things that bother you for a long time but the EA issues took away some of that patience you used to exercise and you wanted a resolution - or to be free from the pain Perhaps now, after a small success, you will be able to proceed without needing something to happen RIGHT NOW. Yes, as you can see from the above, this is true, but while I thought I was being patient, I was also making a lot of mistakes - LB'in big-time, without being aware of it. I think I can be more patient now and not need things to happen instantly, but this is something I need reminding about.
I believe ( and there is a scripture somewhere that says this) that when we know that something is wrong, and we do it, it is sin. I wonder how much the issues you have with him are the result of his upbringing and environment. He may think he is doing it right, and the way he was trained to do it. If so, it will be a long process to change things and he probably won't respond well to some of what you suggest. His emotions will be involved and just using logic doesn't always work in this case. Oh, this is absolutely true. He is a good man, who is following in his father's footsteps. That he doesn't like how his father does things, or how his father treats his mother, or how his father tries to control him hasn't helped him see that he is behaving just like his father, because his father is his only role-model. Only counselling will help him to see that process more clearly - that's why I want to try to get him back into counselling at some point, but right now, I can see that he has too much on his plate.
This is one of the reasons I recommend MC on these issues. He can say no to you, but he almost has to look at what the MC says if you are going on a regular basis. You have come a long way, you will have a much better chance getting your point of view across to the MC now than you would have even a month ago. I believe you can use this (below) process now. This is what I think This is why I think it. This is what I want to do about it. This is what I just said ( summarize the preceding stuff)
Or like this quote I heard so long ago that I can't remember who said it
"Tell um what you're going to tell um. Tell it to um. Tell um what you just told um. "
OK, I'll think about this and try to absorb it. I do want to start MC, and perhaps our confrontation last week will eventually help him to see that we really do need to do this.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know that he probably has things that he doesn't like about me which may be a source of resentment for HIM - if I knew what those were, I could begin to try to do something about them. I have tried to talk to him, but he just says, "I don't spell out your faults for you!"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here is another very valuable piece of information, If you wonder why he used the word "horrible." Sounds like has been raised to believe that you don't come out and tell another person what they are doing wrong. Sounds like when you started talking about him, you were doing something he had been taught not to do. [/b] Yes, this is true - but he gets this not from his parents, but from the older woman friend I have talked about before. That puts me in the position of being the one to criticize him, he goes to her and says, "she tells me all my faults", and "friend" says "how awful, she shouldn't do that." It would be difficult if the older woman were his own mother taking his side against me, but the fact that she is actually his former lover is a bit much. I don't know how to deal with this one.
Going back to the dialog about my wife's diet - there are ways to bring things up that don't sound so confrontational. I believe that some effort and thought in that direction for you will help him get through it much easier. Especially if you continue to remind him that you love him and are trying to improve your marriage and make your love stronger. I know, I just fail at this so often. All I can do is keep trying. I have got this far and I know he still loves me, and I still love him and I think I have managed to communicate that, so I hope we can draw closer still. Its a long-haul flight, though!
My W believes in POJA now, but it took some times of me finding a happy solution to a bad problem before she would believe it could work. She thought at first that it meant I could veto everything she wanted to do. I have since shown her that because I love her, I could be very creative in making things work for her and she is seeing the benefit of it. This is exceptionally valuable information - this is something I really have to learn to do - be creative with solutions that work for both of us instead of just demanding that he change MY way. This is really hard for me, ss - you have seen yourself how dense I can be!
This whole thing is about POJA. I could explain what we do with our money. And we are pretty happy with it, but it is really about POJA and in a way he is right. If you both have to agree about your spending, and he wanted to purchase something that didn't make much sense, he would have try and justify it to you. Often they can't find a reason for what they want, except that they want it. Are you willing to give this one a couple of years and work on more basic stuff like the POJA concept ? Or do you already have a plan to get this across to him? This is one of the things I believe would be much easier with MC as a facilitator. Yes, I'm willing to give this time, and I got it - I have to be more creative about solutions.
BTW, my wife and I put all our money into our joint account except we both get some spending money ( the same amount for each of us every paycheck) that we don't have to account for. We can get what ever we want with it, whenever we want. That helps us both think we get some freedom of spending. We estimate how much gas money we need and we each get that out also. If we want to do something beyond normal driving, we use our spending money. The reasoning behind this is that we don't make enough for us to drive as much as we would like, and if we do extra trips, we pay for it ourselves, and don't tax the family budget. Family vacations are budgeted in to the yearly scheme of things and paid for from joint account. This is what I have always wanted and have suggested before - maybe he will slowly come round to this.
That is why POJA works so well after it is understood. Some think it is a way to limit what the other does ( so I get my way, and they can't do what they want) I really don't see it that way - I really want both of us to be happy - for him to have what he needs and wants, and me, too, and for us to support each other in getting what each other need.
Well, again, thanks for all the thoughtful support - I am going to have tomorrow to myself - H has to take care of some family matters with his B, so I will be cogitating on this -
and yes, things are going well!
All the best to you and your wife, ss - don't stay up too late and keep her waiting!
Cheers! LIR <small>[ October 07, 2002, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>
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Hi, I have just read your post for the third time. I wish I could find the words, I am having a hard time with what to say. I did not know those things were there for you to deal with. I wish I could help more, but I don't know how to do it.
It is not right for a Husband to treat his wife like this. Now I say this and all my sins come back to haunt me, I am not a saint by any means. I wish Orchid or someone with more wisdom than I possess would come along and help more than I seem to be able to help right now.
In a way I am glad you did not tell me this before, as I would have wondered if you could stand the things I would recommend. The answers are still the same, the recipe doesn't change but I may have doubted if you had the strength to mix it up and bake it.
I can feel for you that you don't have family around. My mother was from St. Louis MO, my Father born in Chicago, and they married and came west. In those days, ( late 40's) there was not much travel ( as we take for granted now) and she had no support. I marvel with what she did. My father worked out of town and his schedule varied. She was mostly on her own. When he was home, he worked another part time job to make ends meet so I can identify with you at least from a child's point of view. I won't comment on all you said. I think once is enough for you right now, I won't stir it up further.
It is easy to see where the anger has come from. It is hard to lay any blame at all on you. Still, as I said, the recipe is the same to save it no matter what the difficulty.
I will comment on the snoring just a little. My wife had this trouble and it got worse as she gained weight. I believe I have sustained permanent hearing loss from it, but I tried to ignore it. On the nights I was already angry It was hard to deal with. I admit that once or twice ( or three times) I unloaded on her because of it, and it wasn't something she could just turn on or off in an instant. I should have gotten ear plugs!!! You are doing better here than I did.
Now I look at all of the above and think, "why am I remembering this, and why am I reviving these feelings? Because you are trying to find a way to deal with them so you can go on with the repairs and therapy. This much pain won't just go away without some effort on his part. I hope he gives it and gives it soon. I am wondering how you met and fell in love and what happened after that for it to go like this.
But there is still no attempt to share "quality time" with me. I have learned the hard way that this is one of my top EN's but I haven't felt until just recently that he was in a place emotionally where he was WANTING to meet that need. Now that there is a light in our eyes when we look at each other again, I think we could probably "go out on a date" and not find it such an uncomfortable experience. Do you have a hope that dates will be on his agenda in the near future? I am glad the light is in your eyes, but I hope he realizes what he must do to keep it there. I believe you know.
And this is where I think your "outside force" comes in - you and I are both Christians, and I DO believe that there is something out there that hates marriage and the love that is there in a good marriage. I can feel it - just there in those feelings above - something that starts to eat away at you just when things are going well, and you are feeling good about things - it starts small, an anxiety, or insecurity, a small voice that grows until its shouting in your ear and that's all you can hear......... For others, probably me right now, its the temptation to give weight to all the negative thoughts and resentments I have - or all the fears I have, which takes my creative energy away from finding a loving solution to my "challenge". So I am trying to say that I hear you on this one.
This is something almost impossible to explain to many people, you have done a better job than I could have done. I know it is real, and difficult to cope with, and that what I say doesn't come close to explaining how hard it is to get past.
This is exceptionally valuable information - this is something I really have to learn to do - be creative with solutions that work for both of us instead of just demanding that he change MY way. This is really hard for me, ss - you have seen yourself how dense I can be! I have never felt you to be dense. I see the help you give others here and I believe you have a very good grasp of what needs to happen. I know that it is hard to see our own selves though, we all seem to have the same trouble with that - and I include myself.
You are on a difficult journey and there will be some good times, some bad. I hope you and he are able to bear it. I marvel that we ( meaning your H and myself) can be so dense and our spouses (meaning yourself, and my W) can still love us and continue to help us. I marvel that you have that much love and patience in you that you can do that for us. I am glad you are trying and that you have hope.
I would bring one more thing to your attention. I notice that in the beginning, you had many people responding, and after I came and began to post daily to this thread, you lost everyone else. I wonder if I caused that by being so aggressive in my posts. I feel bad about you loosing the others and feel it may be my fault. I'm not sure if I slow down if they will come back, or what to do. Do you have any comment about that? Any suggestions for me? I feel there were many other valuable voices that you are not hearing from now.
I hope you get a rest tomorrow and I hope you get some energy back to enable you to go on with this recovery.
SS <small>[ October 07, 2002, 11:55 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>
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Ok, I'm on for a short time - thanks so much for looking in on me - tonight, H is away - and I feel EXHAUSTED - i feel like I could just sleep for days - my whole body feels like I have sleeping pills running through me. I want to just reassure you, ss, that I am in weekly individual counselling. I have just come back from my counselling appointment. Tonight she told me that she is the main person in the counselling service who deals with couples, so I know I am in good hands with her. I find her very helpful. But that also is a problem, because she is not available to couple counsel both of us. Still, I have been thinking that I would really like a man to counsel both of us. My experience of talking with you here has helped me see how much I could benefit from couple counselling with an experienced male counselor - I really do need help with the Mars/Venus aspect of communication. And I also feel that my husband needs the guidance of a man - he needs a man to replace the male role model his father gave him. He needs a man to help him learn the skills of being a good husband. I think my husband wants to learn, but he doesn't know how, or where to turn.
In a way I am glad you did not tell me this before, as I would have wondered if you could stand the things I would recommend. The answers are still the same, the recipe doesn't change but I may have doubted if you had the strength to mix it up and bake it. If I don't mix it up and bake it, I might as well quit, and I'm not a quitter. The thing is, I also feel stuck - there are times when I feel trapped, and like I said to my dad, I can't really claim any credit for being patient, because really, the truth is that if I had had the money in April, I would have left him then. I feel trapped financially, and I don't want to ruin my sons lives, so I am trying to grapple with the situation, AT THE SAME TIME I am trying to further my own interests and gain further career qualifications (an MA, which I haven't applied for or started yet) so that I could leave someday if I wanted to. Maybe that sounds dishonest. Actually, it isn't, because I told him that during our fight last week - I told him that if he didn't change, I would leave when I was able to.
Thanks for sharing about your family - I think ALL families are fascinating. Our countries' history is written in the stories of ordinary families. My dad's parents came out to LA from Mobile, Ala. in 1929 - with 5 kids - my grandfather's brother bought him a hardware store. And my mom's parents came out to LA from Nashville, then separated after they had 5 girls, so my grandmother raised them alone. Both tough Depression-era childhoods. My dad's mother had a nervous breakdown trying to manage on her own, but her SIL came out to help her and they survived. The thing is, in those days, sure, they went through what I am going through, and women have always struggled with being at home and trying to manage, and I guess my perception is that usually, it was the H who went and had his A's on the side while W went quietly bonkers at home, but she couldn't leave because she couldn't afford to lose his salary. One thing I have noticed on these boards is how many WWs there are - not just WHs - and the feelings of the BS H are just as painful to read as the BS W. So coming to this forum has changed my perception of who has affairs and how men and women handle their feelings.
It is easy to see where the anger has come from. It is hard to lay any blame at all on you. Still, as I said, the recipe is the same to save it no matter what the difficulty. It is easy to see where the anger has come from, yes - there are a lot of things I think are wrong in our marriage - and I am not to blame for his issues. What did he have going on with himself before he met me? What can he own in other words? A. He was deeply involved with a married woman, emotionally, perhaps at one point in the past, physically, even if that was only briefly. B. He had problems dealing with his anger. C. He had "privacy" issues - he was not honest about his past - he was always someone who "played his cards close to his chest". I had hoped he would open up after we were married, but he has not seen any need to change.
So he brought this baggage into our marriage, just as I brought "baggage" into our marriage. I don't see us being truly healthy with each other until we are able to deal with this - both of our "baggages" through counselling together.
Given that he brought these issues into his R with me, I have still not been very good at dealing with his issues, or him in a constructive way. I have fought against him. Well, that's hard to see - this is where counselling helps me sort things out. I always said that when we had a blow-up, it was because I stood up for myself when he was unjust (or abusive). Sometimes I stood up quietly, sometimes I stood up loudly, with lots of shouting and yelling - I sometimes got so angry and frustrated that I would call him names - I shouted in front of the children (partly because I didn't think it was right for them to see me putting my head down and taking it). So I have been a strong woman, but not a wise one. There are a lot of things I could have done better. I could have tried to learn about communication before this. I could have tried a softer touch - but that's hard when you already fear someone, and I started to fear him early on in our M. Still, what I'm saying, is that like our row last week, I could have learned to walk away and not fight. But the injustice of it all grips me by the throat and I fight - I guess I'm a fighter - I once confronted a thief who stole my purse and demanded that he give it back! Pretty dumb when i look back on it! But because I delayed him, the police did manage to catch him - still, he could have just knifed me. Its just not in my nature to take things lying down. So I have to work hard at thinking of more rational, less confrontational solutions to problems that I face with people.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now I look at all of the above and think, "why am I remembering this, and why am I reviving these feelings?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because you are trying to find a way to deal with them so you can go on with the repairs and therapy. This much pain won't just go away without some effort on his part. I hope he gives it and gives it soon. I am wondering how you met and fell in love and what happened after that for it to go like this. Well, that's a really long story - it wasn't your fairy-tale romance. Well, it sort of started out that way - but there were signs from the beginning that he had "issues", and I still let myself get caught up in them - the things is, I fell in love, and I believed that we had something special - you know, I think I was right. I still believe that we fell in love - but what happened was that he was having an EA with this married woman, which by that time was long-distance (he was living in LA, she was back in England) - so they used to talk on the phone, and write to each other several times a week. I believe he was trying to distance himself from her emotionally, but didn't know how. Along comes me, and we clicked - but he couldn't tell me about her because he was afraid of what I would think - he couldn't see himself losing this older woman as a friend and didn't think that should be necessary. Once I did become aware, I tried to talk to him, but he clammed up - that's him - but we couldn't keep away from each other - eventually he asked me to marry him, but it was while he was home for a visit in England - I was afraid he wouldn't come back if I said "I'll think about it" so i said "Yes, but we have to talk" - when he came back, he brought me three rings, one from him, one from his mother, and one from his friend. That spooked me. Again, I tried to talk - he clammed up and this time was really hurt and angry - felt betrayed. After a few months I gave him his rings back - it just wasn't working. We both had a terrible sense of failure. he got a new girlfriend. But within a few months, we had clicked again and he said that what he had with me had been "real" - still, he went back to England for good and left me in LA - then we wrote to each other - he said he had talked to his "friend" and made things clear to her. He asked me to come to England to meet his people - family, etc - "just see what you think" - he paid my way. My family all said I was crazy to go. I went. We clicked. I went home, he proposed again. I said yes. He came back to LA. We got married. We lived there a year, then I left my family and came here with him. We had two kids. Here I am 13 years later. My family in LA still say they feel I have been torn away from them. I have a big family in LA. But I'm a wayward and stubborn soul, and was trying to make a life for myself. I have a commitment to my marriage, to my children and to my H, because I believe he really does love me, and I love him. It has been a brutal experience at times, loving him, but the fat lady hasn't sung yet. Sometimes I miss my family so much - so much. And wonder why I ended up here - but life is wierd and I have to take responsibility for my own decisions. What I am trying to do is take care of myself now. I put him and my kids first for the past 10 years, and screwed MYSELF out of a career. So I have to rectify that situation. If I can do that, then I might have more options. I am hoping that in the few years that it should take me to get qualified, that my H and I will grow so that I won't want to leave by the time I am able to.
I have never felt you to be dense. I see the help you give others here and I believe you have a very good grasp of what needs to happen. I know that it is hard to see our own selves though, we all seem to have the same trouble with that - and I include myself. Thanks for giving me some positive encouragement.
I would bring one more thing to your attention. I notice that in the beginning, you had many people responding, and after I came and began to post daily to this thread, you lost everyone else. I wonder if I caused that by being so aggressive in my posts. I feel bad about you loosing the others and feel it may be my fault. I'm not sure if I slow down if they will come back, or what to do. Do you have any comment about that? Any suggestions for me? I feel there were many other valuable voices that you are not hearing from now. Yes, I have noticed this, too - and I have been thinking that maybe I should move over on to the Recovery board. I think that since in my situation, I am no longer (as far as I know) dealing with an active affair, that people are giving immediate attention to those who are more in the throes. I have also thought that its because I have not posted a lot on to other people's threads for awhile now. A lot of people have come and gone - I guess that's what happens here. There is also the aspect that there is abuse in my R, and some people feel that the only way to deal with this is to leave. Perhaps they are right. I am open to the idea that those people are right. But I haven't felt that it is a lost cause yet, and I have also felt to a certain extent, trapped financially. It is hard for people to give advice (leave) and if the person (me) doesn't take it, what else can you say? So I think there is some of that going on. I will just say that I have appreciated every comment from anyone who has replied to me, and you, ss, have helped me in very specific ways, which i am very grateful for. But I don't want you to feel burdened by being the only one to reply - I also want you to know, like I said, not to worry over me too unduly, because I am in counselling. But it is nice to know someone cares.
BTW, I had a funny dream last night! I dreamed I was married to, and in bed with George Bush - DUBYA himself! What a howl! The thing is, I didn't vote for him, and although I think he has done a good job in the war on terrorism, and I support that, he's not exactly my cup of tea. But in my dream, it was wonderful and felt so good - because he was kind, loving, warm, attentive, and STRONG and PROTECTIVE of me - I remember waking up and thinking "wouldn't it be nice?' - i guess that he had Dubya's face because of the strong and protective aspect. But it really brings a smile to my face. I'll leave you with that one. What a wierd woman!
Just tell me what you think - don't feel you have to respond to all of this - its just Background. Do you think I should move over on to Recovery?
Cheers! I'm off for some sleep! LIR <small>[ October 08, 2002, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>
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I hope you got some really good rest last night. Sounds like you needed it.
As I get to know your story better, and what is going on, I am impressed with your strength. You say you are not a quitter, and it is true, you are still there. Don't feel bad about wanting to leave in April, you have had a lot to deal with. Lets just work with where you are now.
You say sometimes you feel stuck, and trapped. That won't be as bad or as often if you are working on it with some new skills, and you can measure progress from time to time. I really believe you can get somewhere with him if you believe you can. It is the believing that will be hard for you - given his history.
At the SAME TIME I am trying to further my own interests and gain further career qualifications (an MA, which I haven't applied for or started yet) so that I could leave someday if I wanted to. Maybe that sounds dishonest. Actually, it isn't, because I told him that during our fight last week - I told him that if he didn't change, I would leave when I was able to. I believe this is good anyway. He could die in an accident tomorrow and leave you without support. I believe all women, even if they stay at home should have an education and job skills. Education makes us more well rounded and better able to cope with all that happens in life anyway. I can't see how this is bad. What does he think about it? Did he react to your comment about leaving?
These kind of things ( in my opinion) need to be discussed when you are not angry. Note that I am not saying they won't come up when angry, just that they need to be revisited when you are not angry. I don't know what he thinks about that "discussion" and you making up after it was over, but he needs to know that your feelings about leaving if it doesn't work are still there. Darn, I wish you had a good MC. I just typed three darns in a row but since I don't use profanity, it didn't sound like me, and I erased it. I still wish you had a good MC.
I wish we could coach you a little bit on LB's. The language you use could be softened in many cases. I told him that if he didn't change, I would leave..... Perhaps this would sound better as " I told him that if we couldn't work things out so that we were both happy, I would leave." There are perhaps other better ways, I am just working on it in my mind.
One of the things I have learned, is that we don't make it about what the other person does/ does not do. We make it about our feelings. "You haven't taken me out on a date in 9 years!!!!! and I am sick of it!!!!! YOU NEED TO CHANGE AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS !!!!!" It is true, and it is blunt, and to the point, but how about this - " The longer we go without dates, without time alone, and expression of affection ( and I am not talking about sex,) the harder it is for me to want to stay with you. I am doing these things so we will fall in love all over again, I need some help. Please, lets date again, lets do things together, lets fall in love all over again and have again what we once felt for each other, oh hon, don't you want that as badly as I do? Will you help me?" (Remember this just to show you what I mean, you have to make it sound like you.) It would need some work to express your feelings properly, and sound more like you would say things.
When I sell sleeping bags to people, I try to make it sound like they will be in heaven if they get one from me, and if not the best one that will be heaven, the next one will be almost as nice but cheaper. They come in to the store wanting to give me money. They want what I sell, they believe it will make them happy, and it will work for them. ( and it does, so they ARE happy.) You are selling something. You are selling him your concept of marriage. You are saying it will make him happy, because if you are happy, you can do a much better job of making him happy. OK, the short version is that rewards work better than threats for getting people to do things.
Now, let me say again. YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE TO DO THIS. He should treat you better than he does. You could walk away. I just feel that since you want to make it work, this is the direction to go. I hope you understand that I know it's not fair for you to have to do this work. I hope you are not frustrated with me for saying these things and asking you to do more when you have already done so much.
Really, this is what plan A is about. (you don't need to be in A, that would be meeting his needs without yours being met) But, plan A is also about changing yourself so that no matter what ( stay or go) you have done everything you could to improve YOU and you will either be a better W to him, or the perfect one for someone else.
But the injustice of it all grips me by the throat and I fight - I guess I'm a fighter I want you to know that this is still fighting, but you are using different weapons. There are many wars won with propaganda, probably as many or more than with guns and bombs. Can you think of it that way?
Thank you for your story, it helps to understand. I hope you get to come home and see your family at least every few years.
You asked me not to worry about you. In a way I do, I worry about many here, but most, I don't feel I am the one to help them. I felt that perhaps I could make a difference for you, so I jumped in.
I don't know what to say about your dream. Over the years, I have had stranger ones, so don't let that get to you. You need to know that you are all right. You are, trust me on this one until you know for yourself.
As far as moving to recovery, If you feel you are recovering, then do it !!!
SS
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