I appreciate the input I am receiving. I can understand the anger and resentment that you have towards me. The questions posed are valid ones. I have answered them to myself and as much as I hate to admit it, they have had an affect on me.
To answer your questions J.R.:
Yes
No
Yes
Yes
Semi

I question my actions, but not my emotions. I know how I feel about her and trust how she feels about me. Hindsight is 20/20.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by The Other Guy:
<strong>I appreciate the input I am receiving. I can understand the anger and resentment that you have towards me. The questions posed are valid ones. I have answered them to myself and as much as I hate to admit it, they have had an affect on me.
To answer your questions J.R.:
Yes
No
Yes
Yes
Semi

I question my actions, but not my emotions. I know how I feel about her and trust how she feels about me. Hindsight is 20/20.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No resentment, TOG. Just reality. By your answers to JR's questions, you've proven that point. IF things really were/are as you describe them, your answers would be different.

The gist of all this advice and discussion is for you to beware, guard your heart. All is not as it appears! We know this from experience. Not everyone at this site is a betrayed spouse, some are OP, as yourself, some are the wandering spouses, like your lady love. You are being given some very valuble advice in the hopes that you don't have to experience what many others here have. Again, the choices are yours and you must be prepared to assume responsibility for your choices(wether or not the consequences are good or bad). Don't be so quick to critcize a very knowledgeable crowd...we've pretty much seen it all and your case is not as different as you'd like to believe.

No resentment to you personally, TOG, unless you are my wife's OM, then <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

My wife's OM has serious problems, not the least of which is getting involved with a married woman. I do still hold alot of resentment towards him, but I am working on that. Some days I feel sorry for him, other days, I want to beat him senseless.

Do you realize the physical danger you may be placing yourself in? Some husbands react quite violently towards the OM. Read the papers.

I don't wish you any ill will... but I'm going to repeat a question...

WHY ARE YOU HERE AT MARRIAGE BUILDERS?

Your presence can only cause pain to those who are freshly experiencing the pain of infidelity...

Frankly, I DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR SIDE.

You can wax eloquently about your affair at www.gloryb.com or philanderers.com. Go there to tell how WONDERFUL your relationship is as you sneak around and lie. Discuss how much you are SOULMATES...Until d-day occurs and you watch your MW waffle and sit on the fence... not quite being able to give up her H or YOU.

Enjoy it while it lasts.

To my MB friends: IGNORE. IGNORE. IGNORE.

Cali

TOG,
My definition of character or integrity is giving up short term pleasure in exchange for doing what is morally, ethically right for the long term. You can argue that all you want, but at least at the present time, you are a man of questionable character. And please don't say you're sorry if someone gets hurt. The fact of the matter is that you are only sorry to the extent that you can express regret but still get your way. Because you would do the same thing all over again. So, you are not really sorry enough to avoid hurting people if it meant you'd have to deprive yourself instead. That's not true remorse. It's called lip service.

TOG,

Two years ago, when I confronted the woman my husband was having an affair with, she told me that my pain, her husband's pain, my two children's pain, and her three children's pain didn't matter. Because she was "in love" with my husband, nothing else mattered. She claimed that he was the only man she had ever loved, that she had never loved her husband, and that she was willing to give up everything for him.

A year later she told me she hated my husband and would like to kill him because he ruined her life and the life of her children.

Now she claims she is totally in love with her husband and always has been.

Isn't it amazing how things change?

Hi TOG,
Since I am both a former wayward spouse & former betrayed spouse, and for all I know, a former other woman, just thought I'd let you know from those 2 perspectives that the loving, unselfish, honorable, respectful, well-intentioned thing for you to do is back off until she's divorced.

If you aren't available and she doesn't divorce, she wasn't likely to.

If she divorces and doesn't want you, you were just an excuse for her to leave her H.

If she divorces and you're unavailable, you aren't responsible for the end of a marriage.

If she divorces, you're available, she's available, you aren't responsible for the end of a marriage, and, that's a start to a relationship that could work, plus if things go wrong with your relationship, she can't blame you for ruining her marriage (it does happen).

Me? My H & I reconciled after 2+ bad years, 21 months of separations, both being involved with OP and 2 years later we're happy to be together, in love and intend to stay that way. His FOW & my FOM, who both used the "soulmate" word on us, respectively, married other people within our first year of recovery...I guess they could go on without us, as relunctant as they were at points to let us go.

Do the honorable thing and don't chase or respond to a married woman, I doubt you'd regret it after a year.

Ok, I'm back.

Sir, I know you love this woman and fully intend on committing to her. You're going to "rescue" her, right? I'm sure you justify your situation because you didn't start it out of ugliness...just two people who accidently happend to have everything in common, unlike she and her husband...right?

My OM felt the same way. Reading what you wrote sounded exactly like something he would have said over 2 years ago. And I felt very out of love with my husband and very unloved by him. I really didn't think he'd give a rats butt that I was intending on leaving him to start a life with someone else because I felt I was there as a convienence factor. I said as much so to the OM. He totally believed that H just didn't have what it took to be my H.

Well...I could give you 2 years worth of gory details...but what it comes down to is this. I couldn't go through with the divorce. And I fully intended on it from the beginning. I was "committed" to my OM and our future together too...thing was, if I'd had any REAL idea of what committment meant, I wouldn't have wandered off from my marriage in the first place. Just because marriage gets dull, or people wander off onto different paths...doesn't mean they weren't meant to be or that it can't be fixed. H and I are as incompatible as they come...but we still love each other and share a happy marriage.

It took the OM leaving my life completely before I could get through the withdrawl enough to work through those things in my head. As long as you're there...she will NEVER have the opportunity to make a rational decision about what she's about to do. It will be based completely on emotion. That's what "in love", and "soul connection" etc etc are. A rush of emotion. Certainly one of the nicer feeling ones...but I gotta tell you...I sleep better at night knowing I'm living in action what I believe in words. You are not. I'm sorry, but you aren't.

I know you want to do the right thing, and I also know you want more than anything else in the world to be with this woman. But that doesn't change the facts of the situation. She IS married. Maybe she will divorce...but as long as you are in the picture AT ALL...she will be doing it because of you. I'm not guessing, I'm not saying "might"...she will...period. I know, I HAVE been there. Even if she does successfully leave (which I did for over a year!) it doesn't mean it's over. Even if she divorces, it doesn't mean it's over. She will live with the consequences of her actions....even after the rush has died down between the two of you...then comes the resentment (if not before).

It is an affair, pure and simple. You can pretty up the definition all you like...you are having an affair, and so is she. You are helping the woman you claim to love, degradate her self image. It doesn't matter if there is sex...I know that. My OM and I planned a future without ever having been physical. Didn't make it any less traumatic for my husband, and didn't make it any more guilt free for me. What I was doing was wrong. Period.

I understand you have a "side" to the story...but you have yet to understand in ANY WAY any of the other sides to the story. This is sad...because it means you are going in to this blind. I wish you would read on...not just about the BS's bitterness...but the absolute anguish they feel because they love someone so much and because someone else cares only about themselves...they are about to lose them. Some of these people have been married half their lives. And the OP and WS's treat them very callously. I have no idea of what beliefs you hold...but I for one, believe in karma. You get what you give....so be very very careful.

Please do the right thing, I think Lor sd it very well. If she gets a divorce then let things progress... what you have done so far... even in your special soulmate non sf affair, if there is no sf, but I doubt it... then you should stop... she is married.. I dont wnat to read close enough to remember if she has children. This is so wrong, and it makes my stomach turn. Please turn to God even if you do not believe him, you need to do the right thing. HOney

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by The Other Guy:
<strong>....before we knew it, we had fallen for each other. Neither one of us went into this saying, "I've decided I'm going to fall in love with this person." It happened. Plain and simple. The connection I felt for her and her for me overwhelmed us. By the time we realized where our hearts were, we were already deeply emotionally bonded.....TOG</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, what a total load of cr*p. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

(I figured since several of ya'll already gave this guy some great advice, I could just be petty this time <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> .) Where's that gremlin with the shaking head and look of pure disgust on his face when you need him?

Lori

TOG,

Sorry if I may seem to be rude. I, like you, have an uncanning ability to cut to the chase.

You sound like a 16 year old boy in heat, but maybe that was your intention to get a rise out of us and get some responses. Be honest to us and yourself and answer this question:

How much do you really think you know about LOVE? Like you tested the waters here at this site, I am testing you now. What is LOVE? Be careful in your response because the answer to this question will define you. You say you love her, but what is love?

Can you stop acting like a teenager for one second and answer this question from the soul?

I thought I would add, an intent to commit is not a commitment, it is manipulation. No ring + no date = no commitment. Get it?!

<small>[ July 30, 2002, 08:13 PM: Message edited by: dreamland ]</small>

FYI

Feelings or emotions emanate from the more primative parts of our brains, the less evolved parts of our brains. These feelings and emotions are chemically controlled .... think of a drug addict whose feelings are totally altered by the drug of choice. The addict makes his or her choices based on feelings ... and the feeling, usually, is to get more drug.

When we make our decisions based entirely on our emotions and feelings, we ignore the more developed and evolved parts of our selves.

If we make our decisions based on some deeper aspects of ourselves .. we usually live more meaningful and happier lives.

Deciding what is appropriate behavior has better long-term outcome if the decision is made with regards to ones ethics, morals, intelligence, rights, self-disipline, committments, goals ... and anything else that make up ones core values.

Feelings are not an appropriate or mature way to navigate an adult life. Feelings are an inner chemical experience in our brains, not reality. We can factor in our emotions when making decisions, but feelings ought not be a reflexive call to action, ignoring our own principles !

What happends when the brains' chemicals change? (they always do... the brain cannot sustain the *high* of falling in love indefinitely) Then what is the relationship based upon? What values shared? What moral high ground will sustain the couple when times get rough (and, times always get rough, eventually)

Feelings are flimsy ... core values are solid .... core values is what we build a family with. Is it possible (or desirable) to build a family with "feelings"?

I think not.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Well said Pepper.

What is amazing is some "adults" have to be reminded of the same things we tell teenagers. It just goes to show how powerful feelings are in taking over our entire being; our brains, our morals, and our maturity.

You say you know the pain of divorce.

1. are you saying YOU have been married and are now divorced, or are you just close to some people who have gotten divorced so you THINK you know all about that pain.?

2. is this a brand new relationship or has this been going on for a long time? weeks? months? years?

3. if you are so much in love with this woman then send her here to us. She can find out if her marriage can be saved on her own without you in the picture. If she ends up divorced you can give it another try.

4. stay out of other women's marriages, it is none of your business.

I've been wanting to tell you this for almost 8 months now.......

I have evidence of your inappropriate actions/words with my wife. This evidence is enough to get you fired and ruin your reputation in your line of work. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Revenge is a powerful motivator. Very Powerful! But I have chosen to keep this information private. Hurting others (no matter who they are) will not make me a better person or a better husband. My wife knows this and loves me more than ever because of the changes I have made and my integrity. She told ME tonight "I Love You".

Find a greater power within yourself to do what is right. Ask God for His help.

Gib

PS - I have prayed for your happiness almost every day for the last 6 months. I hope it has helped you.

<small>[ July 30, 2002, 10:24 PM: Message edited by: Gibby1 ]</small>

WOW!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

It is amazing how much people will defend their evil acts under the guise of LOVE. Too bad that these people never knew LOVE. If I were a woman, I certainly would not want to have any part of a man who was only interested in getting just the feelings.

Hello TOG:

Wow, reading your thread was like reading mine from a while ago....I was the OW in a 2+ year long "affair". TOG, I truly understand how and what you feel. It's a feeling that no one can understand unless they've been there. Maybe that sounds dumb, but it's true. It really is a special feeling of chemistry and connection that doesn't just happen with anyone. I don't believe it is an infatuation, as many have told me. did.

People can be harsh, and ok, I guess we deserve it. In spite of what others think about us, we're not bad people. We didn't get involved to hurt anyone, or to destroy a marriage. People think of the "other person" as an evil, wicked beast set on destroying someone. Ok, maybe some of the "other people" are that....but I do believe that some get into the situation because they simply fell in love. I know I did.

I don't know how your situation will turn out, or if you have a future together. I do hope you never have to suffer the pain of losing her. As some have said, it is an "addiction" and saying goodbye is quite painful.

It is interesting to read about such a similar situation. Take care! Keep us posted!

DJ

djmusicbox,

A person is defined as being nice because they are nice to others whether or not there intention is to be nice. Likewise, a person can be evil if they are defined by their actions to be habitually evil, regardless of ill intentions. What was done is inexcusable, but single actions in the span of a life time does not define a person, habits define a person.

The action of "falling in love" is a consious decision. It is not as if there was a stone in the road and one stumbles over it. We are not animals, we are aware of our actions and our daily decisions. Do not simply put this as falling, there was no falling here.

If it walks like a duck....

<small>[ July 30, 2002, 10:21 PM: Message edited by: dreamland ]</small>

Oh boy, maybe you'll be in the 5% of relationships that start as affairs and last. It IS an affair when you break marriage vows and disregard the spouse's feelings. So he doesn't meet her needs, sure doesn't sound like she's meeting his! And why did she marry him to begin with?

You are living IN FANTASY LAND. Good luck buddy, you will definitely need it!
p.s. remember what they do WITH you, they will do TO you