So I've been down a pretty long and rocky road. Went as far as having divorce papers served. WH seemed truly interested in working on M and we have been seeing a C together. Some tough issues, but definitely progress with this C. Then I find out that WH is continuing some of his internet activities, chatting with certain friends/partners (of sexual and romantic type) even though he knows I don't like it. What can I realistically expect? How much success do MBers have with the Harley expectation of NO CONTACT? Do those of you who've had a problem with this then continue on with a divorce or separation? How far do I go? I don't want a sham marriage anymore. I don't think we can rebuild trust when he continues with the internet/telephone activities which, more likely than not, lead to rendezvous in person. Do I throw in the towel? Do I tell him I know he is continuing with these activities? I am so tired of the lies and the secret double life he leads.

Any comments along these lines are much appreciated. Thanks.

<small>[ February 06, 2005, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: hanora ]</small>

Hi Hanora, so good to hear from you. You have always been good to respond to my posts. We've been on vacation lately, and then there was the whole divorce paper episode (which really wasn't at all about manuvering or posturing . . .I really meant it). I am going to be meeting with the C alone this week, and I will TELL ALL. This is a new C for us as a couple; I have finished meeting with the C I saw individually, though I think he did me much good in getting me to the point of strength where I could do the D thing.

As for throwing in the towel, I find myself continually weighing and re-weighing the cost of all this, not in dollars (Canadian or otherwise) but in terms of how this affects the six kids. Sometimes I think that I should just hang in there for the sake of the kids and the comfy lifestyle, and then, occasionally, a little voice inside me screams "You deserve better than this!" I mean that by way of a relationship, because I really have been faithful and am willing to work on my marriage. But I can't with a man who continues to cheat, even if it is "just" internet chatting (which I know it isn't). There is so much more that is really unhealthy, physically as well as emotionally.

So I find myself back again at a crossroads. I don't know HOW I can ever get my WH to be fully honest with me. The Harley concept of no contact and moving on to a fuller and richer relationship of trust and caring seems like a never-neverland I will not reach. Worse still, my WH seems to think I should just accept his choices and be grateful for "what I have of him." Like wanting it all is too much? That is what I gave.

Well, thanks for reading my rambling. I haven't been too generous in responding to other MBer posts because, quite frankly, I feel ill-qualified and too much of a failure in my own relationship to be much light or help to others.

Thanks again for your kindness, Hanora. Take care.

Two words:

"PLAN B"

Protect your feelings for him and protect your M. TRYING to continually save your M will lead you to loosing it. You can not change him, he has to learn from his mistakes. No consequences, no change.

asgoodasitgets, I feel your pain. Today was the first time I have posted here although I've been reading posts for about six months and read SAA. I am seeing an attorney on Friday even though my WW says she does not want a divorce. She says she doesn't have regular contact with OM but I have caught her in several lies now. I also do not know how to get total honesty from her. I guess I have concluded that actually following through on divorce threats this time is the only way to "jolt" her into reality. I, too have thought about hanging in there for the sake of the kids but I'm afraid before long they're going to know what's going on anyway. They're 12 and 14. Good luck.

Hi Dreamland and Yank,

Thanks for your replies. As for Plan B, we are in a sticky situation with job changes and a possible move on the horizon (talk about life stressers.) I know I could Plan B if I wanted to, and I have to believe that I can and will when the right time comes. I really believe I am staying in not only for the kids, but also for myself, so that I can say to myself that I have really tried, thoroughly, every possible means to save my marriage.

You are both so right that nothing can be built when the lies continue.

I appreciate your post and kindness, Yank. I am sorry about your situation. First of all, I wouldn't be surprised if your kids don't already know, or at least sense, in an intuitive way, that things are wrong between you and your WW. I know how hard this is on the kids. I will never forget telling my kids about this. It was the hardest thing I've ever done.

Also, regarding seeing a lawyer, I have some things to say if you're willing to listen. I really feel I lucked out with a lawyer who was older, experienced, and although he understood my pain, he was clear in telling me that the last thing he ever wanted to see was a D happening. That really gave me pause. I think it's a good idea to talk to a lawyer, learn where you stand, what you stand to lose and so on. Like you, I hoped that serving papers would give my WH a jolt, and let him know in a clear way, that I meant business. And the result for me: a commitment to counseling. Now that is a good thing. And we are meeting with a great C who has a lot to teach us. But now that I have discovered that certain behaviors are continuing, I have to let at least the C know. Maybe I am expecting too much? I love the cocept of no contact that Harley proposes. But is it realistic? In my case, WH would have to lose a business deal. That's fine with me, but he is hesitant. Do I ask him to choose?

Well, we shall see what develops. The MB forum has always been a good sounding board for me, and I appreciate your insights and encouragement.

Take care and good luck with the lawyer on Friday. Let us know how it goes!

I remember I used to confuse Plan B with Plan D. Clearly there is a big difference. Plan B will save a marriage and is often imparitive for recovery to occurr.

Hey Dreamland. So let's clarify here. Plan B, from the looks of it, is pretty much just like the big D except that the legal action hasn't taken place.

To run through the scenario a bit more clearly, this means I should tell WH in a letter, that I am not going to make any contact with him unless he decides for us and the marriage. His response would be that he has already done that by agreeing to the counseling. And the response to that would be that he is being dishonest with me by continuing with his internet relationships and phone contacts with these people he cheats with. (yes, there is more than one, the irony of someone who cheats on the cheaters.) I guess it all seems a bit confusing, even to me.

Guess I better review Plan B. And the next question is whether or not I could do it now.

Thanks for making me think.

asgoodasitgets,

Sorry for being blunt. I guess I get this from my Dad. My WW says the same thing you just said. I think marriage is all about commitment. You can seperate and still be committed. Marriage is a contract. Is the contract void because you decide not to talk to your spouse for a period of time to SAVE the marriage. NONSENSE!!! Do not fall for the WS fog talk. Is this where you heard this reasoning?

I know very little about your story, but I offer advise to provoke thought. Only you know what to do for your circumstance. Many of us allow feelings to dictate action. I too am to fault for this. I should stick to my priorities to decide my action.

<small>[ July 31, 2002, 07:38 AM: Message edited by: dreamland ]</small>

Fogtalk? Fogtalk? Boy could I tell you about that. WH is a master at it, and I am at a loss to combat it. And I realize that there IS no appropriate response to fogtalk. WH just doesn't see things straight these days. For example, I just got a lecture on why sexual infidelity shouldn't be such a big deal. (is that rationalization talking or what?) Who needs that kind of mumbo-jumbo. So I'm supposed to look at the marriage vows I took 17 years ago and shrug my shoulders, acknowledging they aren't so important anymore? No way babe.

As for reacting from emotions, I guess we all do that. The thing to do seems to be to assess and prioritize what is really important to us, individually and as a couple. Then, and only then, can we make progress. Or so WH says. . .

Don't apologize for shooting straight from the hip. I can handle it. Take care.

Hi asgoodasitgets,

I'm not even sure divorce is the right thing. I'm just desperate to get her attention. She acts caring until the "heat" is off but then when she perceives things are back to "normal" and I'm not threatening to leave, then she goes back to emotionally isolating me, lying etc. I just can't stand being subjected to this anymore. This is nothing close to normal. You mentioned Plan B. There's a strong likelihood that I am going to have to move out of state for a job. My story is in General Questions under "Playing Chicken". Are you suggesting that maybe a move might be enough without pressing for divorce right now? I want to believe her promises so badly but I've been burned too many times.
By the way, you are NOT asking too much when you ask for total honesty. Isn't that the foundation of a marriage? I don't know if you've read "Love Must Be Tough" but I feel that if I don't take drastic action, I will be guilty of enabling my W to continue in her selfish lifestyle.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Do I ask him to choose"? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You did the right thing when you got him into counseling. You had every right to believe that would elicit honesty but it has not. Asking him to choose is absolutely your right. You may fear his answer but that's another issue. You are within your rights to ask. You are his wife. He owes you honesty first and foremost. Hope this helps. Thanks for your kind response.

AGAIG;

Perhaps a Plan B letter will help illustrate what Plan B is about...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My Dear W,

This is a difficult letter for me to write, one that I have been working on for weeks now.

I sincerely apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your relationship with OM possible. I foolishly pursued my career thinking I was doing the right thing for us and our family, without understanding my responsibility to meet your most important emotional needs. I was not there for you when you needed me the most and we are now both suffering for my mistakes.

I can commit to a marriage based on honesty, openness and mutual respect and care for the other's well-being. I can commit to marriage with you on those terms - I cannot commit to marriage on any terms other than those, and I am determined not to.

I am willing to avoid the mistakes I’ve made in the past and work hard to create a new life for both of us that will meet both our needs. I cannot do that until you end your relationship with OM and all other relationships and emotional commitments which require you to maintain a secret second life that takes away from our relationship, for once and for all. I love you and I want our marriage to work but in order to preserve my love for you I am no longer able to keep working on our marriage until there is no contact with the other man.

Until then, I will avoid seeing you or talking to you. I will also not be able to help you financially in meeting all of our current obligations. I will continue to pay the mortgage and I will provide you & the children with groceries and other basic needs, but I will not be able to pay for utilities or for your car and other expenses of our home; you will have to cover those yourself. I have made arrangements for the children to see or stay with me whenever they desire, but they must do it without you. If I should need to come to the house, I will make sure to do it when you are not there, or will make arrangements with the children to bring me what I might need. I’d appreciate your leaving my mail in the mailbox as I will pick it up myself. If you need to communicate with me regarding the children or any other matter, it will have to be through a friend or family member, (I might suggest D or B), unless it is an emergency involving the children, in which case I will take your call.

I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you this way. You must know about the suffering I have endured because of your relationship with OM, and I simply cannot be with you any longer, while knowing that you are with him, and hearing the sound of your voice when you speak to him; sounds I have not heard in many years. I still love you but I cannot see you under these conditions.

As soon as you are willing to permanently separate from OM, demonstrate it in a credible way, and are willing to follow measures to ensure total and permanent separation, I will be willing to discuss our future together. We cannot make the mistake we made in the past, thinking that by just ending the external relationship things would work themselves out. The scars that episode left in us are probably one of the major factors in why we are where we are today. We must commit to our marriage and to each other as our number one priority in every way, and we must jointly agree to a marriage recovery plan that includes the following: Protection - avoiding being the cause of each other’s unhappiness; Care - meeting each other’s emotional needs; Time - giving each other our undivided attention; and Honesty - being totally open and honest with each other. Steve Harley can help us do this, as well as help us with a plan we can both agree on.

I understand how difficult this is for you as well, and I will make every effort to provide you with comfort and support as we work through this together.

I love you and I want us to spend the rest of our lives together. I believe in you. I believe in your ambitions and goals for your business and your life. I marvel at what you've done for us and for so many others over the years. Our children; look at the people they're becoming, in large part due to the time YOU chose to spend with them. YOU made yourself the person you are today. Nobody else did. You deserve to be as proud as I am of your accomplishments as a woman, a businessperson and a mother.

I love you W; you will always be very special to me. I look back through our life and I choose now to only remember the good times and learn from the bad. I forgive whatever pain you have caused me and hope that in time you will forgive me too.

I’ve loved you since I met you, I loved you when we married, and I continue to love you today; perhaps even more than I ever did before. I look at the picture of us on the beach, and I remember the dreams and the hopes, the stars, and the sunsets we watched. I remember our first awkward time together, and I still believe those dreams are possible. I just cannot be with you or see you while you are still involved with OM and feel the need to have a separate life without me.

All my love,

Spacecase
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Hi Yank, Good to hear from you. I have some thoughts on how a move might affect your situation. We are facing the same situation in our family, in just a few weeks now.
Some might tell you that a move is exactly the wrong thing (our MC even suggested this, hinting that if we REALLY want to make lasting changes we need to put our marriage first) and some people will point out the added stress in life when a family moves. New job, setting up the household, kids in new schools, etc. I feel a little differently. For me, a move is a fresh start. New place, new neighborhood, new people, new job (for WH) and a chance to start over. I think that in and of itself is a good thing. Maybe you feel the same way. Old places, old patterns of behavior, old ways of thinking. In our case, WH has been commuting great distances, leaving me with the kids (6) for weeks at a time. This has placed a heavy burden on me and also been difficult on the marriage. It has also allowed WH unlimited time alone, which opened the door to all kinds of destructive (to the marriage) behaviors. My hope is that a move will change all that, at least somewhat. Now I don't want to be policing his every move. That's not trust. But I still think a move for the family offers some great benefits.

For me, I am willing to try ANYTHING before finally saying "let's divorce." Now I have served papers on him, and it got us to the MC. I don't feel that was at all manipulative of me. I was really ready for the total separation and finding a new life for myself. But to answer your question, in my long-winded way, yes, a move might well be an important step before considering divorce.
Thanks for your support on the trust and honesty issues. Harley's concepts have made so much sense to me. I am bewildered when my H says things like "Why can't you just be happy with what you have of me when I'm home? Why does it bother you what I do when I'm not home?" Hello?? What did the vows mean?
Well, let's hope our MC and move will bring good things. I am considering a plan B letter, just as a next step. I am continually disappointed when I find new conversations, chats in chatrooms and the like on the home computer showing WH's disrespect for our marriage.
Thanks for the post and take care.

<small>[ February 06, 2005, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: hanora ]</small>

Hi asgoodasitgets,

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I am going to seriously consider not pursuing the divorce in hopes that the move may do the "trick". At least it will achieve no physical contact. I'm just praying that God will change her heart because that is truly the only thing that will "cure" her.I agree that a move for you will have benefits. Sometimes a change of scenery can clean out all the bad kharma. I hope that's the case for you. I also believe my WW my benefit from being removed from friends that are not great influences, the OM etc. Other than because the counselor and you said so, does your H have any other incentive to "shape up"?

Hi Hanora and Yank, I am also so impressed by the gracious and thoughtful responses I get. Like a present. Thanks.
It is always a pleasure for me to read your posts, Hanora. Great balance. I had to laugh at your reading your husband's drivel to him! I have a security box with key at a friend's house, chock full of internet correspondence as well as chat room erotic junk that really throws me for a loop ( I know this man??) I have saved all this for perhaps such an occasion. I am just not quite ready yet. WH think I have some kind of spy who emails me and forwards me WH's stuff. It is so simple with the Spectorpro software I learned about here at MB. It really opened my eyes. I just feel right now that I have to hang on to this stuff--the time isn't right to show him what I have. I use the stealth software to keep tabs on him, and that's how I know he isn't being fully honest with me.

As an aside, I mentioned to him tonight (he's out of town on business) that I have real trust issues with him. I feel better about things when he is home and we are proactively "working" on our relationship, seeing a counselor and so on. When he is gone, his time is his own, I don't know what he is doing, but I can guess!! And I don't like it. I told him this and he basically told me it's my problem. This from the man who supposedly loves me???

As for the move, Hanora, I think you are right that without complete honesty between us and the C as well, there will not be any significant progress. The only thing I can say to defend the sensibility of a move is that it is my attempt at assauging myself that I have really tried everything I could have tried before heading for D.

Six kids is a full house indeed. And even three can be a lot. They are great kids, but of course demanding anyways. Time is precious, esp time alone or even time with H. But we have been making that more of a priority, and it has made a difference already. I feel very grateful for my six kids.

Thanks, Hanora, you're a real comfort to me.

And Yank, I have appreciated your views and thoughts as well. I am right with you on the move thoughts, esp the escape from bad Kharma and the negative influences. Your last question was really thought-provoking. Sad to say, WH has thrown religious convictions out the window in an attempt to escape the guilt of what he has done. Would that he wanted to change because HE wanted to. He admits knowing that what he has done is wrong, but he feels I pushed him into it (rationalization garbage) because I haven't been emotionally "available." While I know I could work on meeting his ENs better, I still think, deep down, I'm a pretty darn good wife. I didn't deserve this. And I suspected nothing. Other than the thought of divorce and it's impact on the kids, not because of great love for me, unfortunately, WH has agreed to counseling. I am hoping that is enough to move us to the right track.

Take care and keep in touch. And thanks. :-)

Mr. Spacecase. Thanks for the inclusion of your Plan B letter. I wrote in your thread that I thought it was a beautiful letter, compassionate and responsible. I will keep a copy for future reference. Sadly, I am afraid I will be needing it.

Take care.

<small>[ February 06, 2005, 04:36 PM: Message edited by: hanora ]</small>

Hi Hanora, Sounds like you are having a hard day. I'm not aware of all the particulars in your situation, but I'm sorry it's so tough. Thanks for your insights. By the way, the job came through, so the move is happening. Guess I feel pretty good about it. It may be that problems just continue, but I am taking this as an opportunity to develop myself better. And I have a promise from WH that sessions with a MC will continue. That is an important commitment to me. And Yank, news from you?

Take care, all.

Hi asgoodasitgets,

I am not normally terribly emotional but I swear I sit here and read about what everyone is going through and I just want to cry. I am a religious person and I sincerely believe these WS are playing with dynamite. God's mercy is not limitless, I'm sorry to say. I'm glad to hear your move is going to happen. At least, that can't hurt things. Our WS take courses in laying guilt trips on their BS. I believe your H received an A+ in his. Blaming you for the A is such an obvious case of blame trasfer due to their own guilt. They don't believe it themselves. As for me, I'm still scheduled to see the attorney tomorrow afternoon. Ironically, my W is being very nice lately. I was playing golf yesterday on the hole by our house. She came out and hugged me in front of the other guys. I was like, "say what"? When she receives the letter, she will be surprised. I am going to tell her that the divorce will only happen if I do not see real evidence this time of a sincere desire to reconcile - NC with OM, more caring attitude, basic genuineness etc. I am tired of promises that amount to nothing but lip service. Sound OK?

<small>[ February 06, 2005, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: hanora ]</small>