Innocent Independent kind of thing or Trolling action?

First can anyone give me a concise definition of “Flirting” – vs. open, friendly, congenial, warm, kind of attitude or disposition?

Side note – Here is a question I had never really thought about. A friend of mine & I were told by a waitress at the golf club that generally the married waitresses are not as “friendly” as the single ones. Would you say that is the case in general with committed married women vs. single woman or is it more the individual personalities?

I struggle to think of things to do together that does not cost a lot of money. ?? We go out to dinner & Movie – by ourselves and with friends. We golf with friends, never alone – her in a cart with the wife. Me in a cart with the H. We were in the same golf league last summer. This summer she joined another league with all women – same night & same course.

Cindy, IMHO, has shown a lot of examples of Independent Behavior—I wonder if there is a fair & legitimate reason a married woman would not be as “independent” – Of course I am wondering if we are turning into a marriage of convenience. At times I am trying to detach & show independence, but it seems to be getting out of hand? And I do not want to seem like I am putting chains around her ankles as she will infer at times. And I do not want to be the controlling guy she claims I am, if or when I say anything about her activities. What do you think?? --

Last summer there was a time we went walking by ourselves on this public trail. I talk about making a habit of this, that I need the exercise anyway, which she used to remind of a lot. Not more than 5 days later I get home & she has a note that she went to the trail & she had just left 10 minutes before – she returned an hour later & I got irritated. I asked her why she went by herself. She said she just wanted to go & did not want to wait for me. I asked why she did not call me on my cell, that I was on my way home & only 10 minutes away. With this incident, she claims that I don’t “allow” her to go by herself!

You might remember, last summer she developed a habit of taking our dog for a walk in this park close to where we lived. She gets home 45 minutes before I and she was always out the door before I got there. I was suggesting that would be something her & I could do together – she made it a big deal with our couples Counselor that she just needed this time to herself. Because this was such a big deal, the counselor suggested I drop & for her to come up with joint activities.

BTW, this may not matter, but typically with these walks she is wearing one of her string strapped tank tops & short shorts. HMMM

Last fall, she tells me the kennel people mentioned to her that there was a place in a neighboring community (another park) where our dog could run, unleashed. I say, great, why don’t “we” (and that is operative word that kills these things!) do that! She withdrawals and says that is not the kind of thing she wants to do on a weekend! She likes all these activities on her days off during the week – this goes along with the no “Chit-Chat” Rule. Again, her inference here is that I am “controlling” her. Putting restriction on her as to what she can do by herself – ??

With these next examples I would have to say that three of the ladies Cindy works with do not have strong marital relationships – they typically do a lot of things w/o their Hubbies. One lady for example I know is often out with her girlfriends ‘til 1:00 in the morning or later and will even stay over night at a friends on occasion. Another ladies H had an “A” a couple years back & Cindy has told me that she has said he is a real bear to live with – they do not come to business, family get-togethers generally.

About a month ago, on a Friday evening Cindy mentions meeting a co-worker & her daughter at a park for a dog show. I tell her I would be interested in joining her & she tells me another Co-worker mentioned meeting them as well & that I would not want to hang out with the girls – I reply that this second lady often does not show up & that it is not like I don’t know these women & would consider them friends. I see them at party’s and at the store & they are always very cordial & friendly towards me.

That night we are out late and the next morning she wakes with her yelling from downstairs that she is leaving for the dog show. She gets back home around 1:00 PM, this was because our dog was stung by a bee, otherwise who knows when she might of returned. As it turned out none of her co-workers showed.

During the week we are typically headed for bed by 11:00 PM. Cindy typically does not work on Wednesdays and many Fridays. And she normally leaves work between 3:00 4:00. This was a Thursday and at dinner, she mentions in very casual way that these two ladies she works with (ladies one & two in my examples from above of not having strong marital relationships, which maybe should not matter, but it was a factor in my ultimate reaction). That the one lady, whom lives 45 minutes away wanted Cindy & the other co-worker to come over after work (9:00 PM) for a hot tub party – I could come, but it would just be the girls! I ask what the hubby (who had an A) was doing & Cindy said he would be sleeping (at 9:30 PM??) he might get up at 5:00 in the morning I don’t know.
But Cindy went on to say that there was rain in the forecast & they would probably not do it. I thought nothing more about it. Then they call about 8:30 and Cindy comes back & says they are doing it. I said nothing but I evidently had this look, because She immediately started getting upset & saying that I did not want her to go. I said that if she only stayed 30 minuets with travel time she would not be back him before 11:00 she argued, so, she id not have to work the next day, Blah, blah – I was not happy and said do what you want! She said no, you will be upset & she in a very putting, dejected tone, called the lady back & told her she was not coming. I am sure she tells her co-worker that I just don’t let her do a thing & am always controlling! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Remember on her days off I have no idea what her plans are or what she does unless she tells & she is normally is not real open about her where about. I have not asked the first question in several months! And she has busted my bricks so many times when I call her, I just do not call very often at all – it has to be a pretty good reason! The no “Chit-Chat” rule.

BTW, at golf last night she shoves this invitation from one of the other women in her group about a hot tube party for the ladies & one of our guy friends was right there wanting to jest & asks what is was about & he takes a peek, while Cindy is being cynical & she says, “Am I allowed to go?!” GERR!!

Not long ago, she tells me that she ran into a couples friends when she went to this new YUPPIE, Deli, coffee shop (Starbucks kind of place) place to et a tea & read the paper – what is that all about – is it just me or is that a little weird?

Of course we have her almost daily trips to the pool in her skimpy bikini.

These things are coming to mind because of a trigger that came up today. She did some work for a company at this wholesale gift & home decoration show. This is through a guy rep that calls on their store. I guess the owner, this rep. the owner’s wife, a couple other ladies & some college guys were helping to work this show before. Well, each day after the show, most of them went out for drinks and a bite to eat – Cindy made a point that the owner bought. She said she felt a certain obligation. (boy doe that send some shivers up my spine!) This owner BTW, had a gag gift for everyone. A bottle of a viagra, se* stimulant kind of thing. I suppose innocent enough, but it tells me he has a certain orientation! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Cindy had mentioned a few weeks ago that this rep had called and asked her to do this- sometime in August. Today Cindy mentions that she is doing the same thing, tomorrow, Friday & Saturday – Sunday is clean up day. I calmly ask if this means out for dinner afterwards, she said, yes.”
I have been trying hard to detach & use this 180 thing. And I am trying hard to be objective & not get paranoid & act secure & not be Mr. Needy, Mr. Controlling here, but I am feeling not so comfortable – I need some feedback – some assurance – is what I describe somewhat normal & that I should not be concerned that she is out there Trolling in certain ways?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
Any suggestions? I feel really weak in saying anything or making an issue of these things, like perhaps I am being MR. Control <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I have tried POJA & that did not work – I was trying to manipulate or control of course!

Oh, she does want to go out to bars dancing in her seducitve, gyrating hips, arms above her head style – I just do not embellish all the attention she normally attracts with this. We were at her boss’s daughters graduation party & the kids are playing tunes & dancing. She goes in and starts looking at pictures, but starts the hip swinging to the music while on the side lines – HMMM - I am consider MR. Prude here – perhaps guilty as charged?

Does it seem we are both getting good at this detaching thing?!

Thanks! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Bob

Just so you know …To fill in another aspect of who I am, I was a sociology minor in college & have always been very interested in the study of people & their interaction – Interpersonal relationship stuff. Cindy has been working and I enjoy trying to figure this stuff out. Dahhh!

With regards to my little bio thing, I forgot to mention that when our children were young I coached their little league, soft ball, soccer & basketball. I was also the Cub Scout Master (leader of the pack) . Cindy was there for them in a big way. She was a stay at home mom until our daughter went to school.

What Laura described as Cindy’s need for attention with the mixed up sense of love, lust approval kind of thing I would agree with whole heatedly – although Cindy likes sex a lot, it is not about that exactly. I believe she has some inner insecurity and has a strong need to be noticed & liked, but at the same time lacks a certain confidence that people will like her for who she is. Do she feels a need to do things she thinks other expects or that will get her this attention need of approval. She has had a lot of success over the years in getting lots of attention with her looks & all and it just so happens that when she has a sexual experience this sense of acceptance is at it’s peak! It is interesting that now that we have a community pool, (since we moved) close by, this is her preferred choice of activity before I get home. She no longer walks the dog very much at all in fact. I do this when I get home. It has actually worked out well, because I need the exercise & this affords me a good reason. This is what frustrated me last summer when she rejected the idea of walking the dog in the park together or going to the walking trails. She wanted me to be fit as well, but would not join me to make it easier for me.

In the past I have contributed to this separate life thing! I have been quite content many times to do my own thing while she did hers. I could clearly see that this had gotten out of balance and I am trying to be realistic to get more balance.

As you all know, a lot of our own perspectives are influenced by what we observed in our parents/ Family interactions – For example, my mom worked with my dad in the small country town, Family, Hardware store. We always eat our meals together and I never remember Mom or dad going on any separate trips away from home. expect for Dad's scout master responsibilities with camps on occasion. My dad coached us in baseball & both mom & dad rarely missed any of our numerous sports events in high school. After my brother and I were out of the house my dad developed a hobby of collecting Case knifes and they would travel around the country to knife shows. The household was always very calm and perhaps too much so. Cindy’s family would go on vacations together a few times, but her dad was away a fair amount with his Air Force training meetings and assignments. Cindy has spoken with sorrow that her dad never paid much attention to her activities, like dance. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> Cindy has also spoke of a dramatic event when she was around 15. Her mom caught her dad in an affair & they had terrible battles.

Since I have known he parents they rarely have slept in same room. When there were children at home he would typically sleep on the couch and when all the children were out of the house, separate bedrooms. In the evenings he watches TV in one room and her in another. They have had a second, lake house for the last 15 years – It is not uncommon for him to spend several days out of the week up their doing his thing, while she is at home. Cindy’s mom likes to go for walks – her dad never joins her. So you can see how Cindy & my perspectives can be different based on expectations from our respective families.

I should say that I believe that Cindy has some very complex issues that she has internalized (MLC for one!) & that she is dealing with & the “acting out” of sorts are a results of these inner demons of sorts and that she has never (or at least seldom, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) done things to purposely hurt me. In my support program we say the person is sick, they are not bad.

I understand her needs her friends and time alone & I am not trying to prevent or curtail this – I fully understand that is a very big sign of an overbearing & “controlling” H to not allow his S any friends or not to go anywhere! -- I can imagine what some may think with some of my vents – <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> To review: she is in her own golf league, goes to church committee meeting, out to dinner & theater with girl friend on occasion, is in a book club with ladies that meet once a month and she does do things with her co-workers. Time alone --- she works on an average 25 hours a week. On her days off she is rarely home for very long.

Changing from an “open” relationship? I can say without any hesitation, that we never had any understanding that it OK to fool around.

I do believe I am trying to orchestrate a change in what I believe had become an over balance in “separate” activities. And I have contributed to this! – For example, since we moved to PA, Cindy had always spent a week in the summer at her parents & many times another week over Christmas, New Years. BTW, we would many times spend a week together at her parents lake house. She had a cousin she became close to who lives 300 miles away & she would spend a week in the summer & another in the fall with her family. With her work she would spend another week to ten days on various overnight buying trips. There were a couple times her & her boss were entertained of sorts in Chicago by a company wanting to promote more business with them. Our daughter has lived 300 miles or more away from us for the past 6 years & so Cindy would typically spend a week with her. One year she & her mom spent a week with Megan when she was attending school in Nashville TN. This separate thing has been a part of our deal for a long time. – I recall for example, 20 years ago, she & a neighbor friend went to Florida for a week. Oh, I have been on two golf outings with the boys to Murtle beach -- and we have both gone to weekend church re-treats -- separately, her with the ladies & me with the guys. She went as a chaperon on a week long mission trip with high schoolers last summer.

I would become a little frustrated with all this at times, but came to find the time I had alone, to do whatever I wanted to do, to be enjoyable as well! I went with the flow! So I cannot say that this trend was all “on” Cindy.
Over the years we have had numerous trips together as well – long week ends as well as week long things. Last fall for example, one of our couple friend’s daughter was married in Boston & they & his brother & his wife (three couples) went on to Cape Cod for two days. A few years back we spent a week with this couple in Naples FL. one day the girls went fishing while us guys played golf – again, this “just spend time with me thing” has never been a part of my deal.

When I read the part of the Harley story of the importance spending time together (15 hours per week), this seemed to make sense to me. I was a Physical Education major in college & Cindy is quite athletic & active – the recreational things seemed to me to be a natural & what I thought would be a relatively easy thing to work on ??? BTW, we used to play a lot of tennis together. I am still not in wheel chair, just yet! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I have mildly suggested this, but never a firm thing – this would not be on the top of my list, but if she wanted to do this I would of course. I feel she would be more receptive to this if I set up with our couples friends we play golf with, but I am not sure this does anything for time together as such?! Frankly, this may be my insecurity showing here, but I hesitate to do everything with this couple as this is the guy she jumped on to and wrapped her legs around while giving him a congratulation on a golf shot! I thought a little bit over the top? – maybe just me?! (LOL!)

Cindy and I went to Charleston, SC and then on the Jacksonville, Fl one February. Another time we spent close to a week in San Francisco. We had another trip to Point Claire resort in the southern most tip of Alabama. On two separate occasions we organized an outing at a ski resort (my boss at the time, had this condo that slept 10 people) in the fall (before the ski season) and had friends and our children join us. There was a beautiful, Gary Player designed golf course & we did golf, hiking & ladies went horse back riding & antiquing. On another occasion, this same boss at the time, did the same kind of thing for co-workers (and spouse) & a client -- 5 star restaurant. We have been on numerous weekend things at state parks & resorts. I took her to a very exclusive resort for a weekend to celebrate our 25th anniversary & on our 30th, a bed & breakfast one night & then on to a resort & I surprised her by inviting our two couples friends - - Golf, hiking swimming –Great meals — I had given her flowers with romantic, jet vague itinerary to announce this surprise get-away and champagne and more flowers upon arrival. Lots of people gave me lots of praise for all I did on that one, saying how thoughtful I was & the ladies would say they wished their husbands were more like me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I have not been the most successful guy, and can not always afford lavish vacations, but have had some good years and we have always seemed to do few really nice things. Honestly, I don’t believe I have been the "tie the shackles around her ankles", or “keep her barefoot & pregnant” kind of guy – Honest!

Hopefully you will get a more complete picture?

But I am always open to suggestions! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Just a lazy day here, doing what I like to do – ramble! Sorry, I can’t help it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

In our condo plan the newsletter talks about a ladies night out. She has expressed wanting to go -- meet new people. I really do not want to be the controlling H, which I think is a reason she throws this up -- almost begging me to ask why is that so important, when we should try to do more together as still another nail in this "Me, as Mr. Control Coffin!" I do not believe there is any way I can say no, (and no reason why I should, per sey) but does it might afford an opportunity for discussion -- negotiation -what do you think? Or am I being unrealistic with asking for more time together -- just give that up! The reality is, she would probably find the girls company more enjoyable than mine - New friends (probably mostly younger) vs. old Husband -- Never mind -- no choice, why punish her?!
I'll plan a night out at same time! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

HH,

You and I came on the boards around the same time. I have read a lot of your story, perhaps due to that reason alone.

Can you tell me some things that are good about your marriage and family life? I ask simply because your posts rarely mention the good. At least it seems that way to myself. I guess I am looking for reasons why you continue to stay and fight when it appears on the surface that you are miserable.

My answer on some of your questions, or it seems the main question anyway is, no. With what you are describing I personally do not see you as all that controlling. I see the pain, or frustration, you face when you attempt to be included in your wifes activities, or you try to create activities you both should enjoy. Only to be shot down basically.

You mentioned the POJA. I understand your frustrations with that part of Dr. Harleys concepts. The only way POJA can work is when you have two people who believe it is a good tool to have and use. If both parties don't strongly believe in it, it will only be construed as a tool of control.

I would love to see some positive aspects of your situation.

jd

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by jdmac1:
<strong>HH,

Can you tell me some things that are good about your marriage and family life? I ask simply because your posts rarely mention the good. At least it seems that way to myself. I guess I am looking for reasons why you continue to stay and fight when it appears on the surface that you are miserable.

I would love to see some positive aspects of your situation.

jd</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for your support!
I do love the lady --
I should say that she has been much more positive & nice than she has been in the past, before the A's -- she no longer critises me like she used to - I have been able to get that message across -That it is fair for me to insists that she not do that!

She is fun loving & stimluating to be around - has some spunk, excitement -- I love to hang out with her of course!
Bob

HH; you really lost me on this one...and this is the second time I've read it!

I can only opine based on my own experience, and just common sense, I guess.

This "independent behavior" thing is, in my opinion, only what appears to be a "socially acceptable" way of saying "I have things to hide from you, and I have the right to them" so I'm certainly not much of a believer in how "real" that is. Although I must admit, Steve Harley believes there is SOME merit to that, and at least in my W's case, it may be deep-rooted in childhood experiences. In any case, even if this is true, there should be enough trust in your M partner to be a little less guarded about these things. I think it's a convenient excuse for otherwise unacceptable behavior.

BTW, here's what Dr. Harley says abot "Independent Behavior" in the new edition of "Love Busters":

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Independent Behavior
Once you are married, almost everything you decide to do has either a positive or a negative impact on each other -- you are either depositing or withdrawing love units with every decision you make. So if your decisions are not made with each other's interests in mind, you will risk destroying the love you have for each other.
I define Independent Behavior as the conduct of one spouse that ignores the feelings and interest of the other spouse. It's usually scheduled and requires some thought to execute, so the simplest way to overcome this Love Buster is to take it off your schedule. If your Thursday night bowling, or visit to a friend of the opposite sex, or spending five hours chatting on the internet while your spouse sits alone watching TV, schedule something else Thursday night, visit someone else, and spend time doing something with your spouse. And whatever it is you decide to do that replaces independent behavior, be sure that both you and your spouse enthusiastically agree to it.
My ninth Basic Concept, the Policy of Joint Agreement, (never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse), helps eliminate independent behavior -- any event or activity that is not mutually agreed to cannot take place. It forces you to take your spouse's interests and feelings into account when you forget that your spouse is an extremely important part of yourself, and should be considered in every decision you make.
Independent behavior is a problem in most marriages because we are all tempted to do whatever makes us happy, even when it makes our spouse unhappy (the Taker's rule). We don't feel the pain our spouse feels when we are inconsiderate -- all we feel is the pleasure gained from activities that are only in our best interest. That's why the Policy of Joint Agreement is so important in marriage. It forces us to behave as if we feel each other's pain -- it makes us behave as if we were empathetic.
A wise alternative to Independent Behavior is Interdependent Behavior, which limits your your events or activities to those that benefit both of you simultaneously. You are both happy and neither of your suffers when you behavior interdependently, making decisions with each other's interests and feelings in mind. When you get to my tenth Basic Concept, Four Guidelines for Successful Negotiation, I'll show you how to replace Independent Behavior with Interdependent Behavior.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As far as POJA is concerned, much the same thing; if one partner believes this POJA thing is designed to manipulate or take advantage of them, they are just being defensive and trying to find excuses not to do it. If there is trust and there is honesty, NOBODY would reject POJA; they only reject it while they have something they don't really want to put on the table for negotiation, or have something to hide. Otherwise, there's no reason NOT to POJA. It gives everyone a forum where thay will get what they want, and allows the partner to get what they want...what could POSSIBLY be wrong with that?

Maybe I'm just jaded and skeptical...but really! This stuff is much simpler that they try to make it, and I think there's a reason for that. And I don't think the reason is that I'm being overly-simplistic about it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Spacecase:
<strong>HH; you really lost me on this one...and this is the second time I've read it!
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Space,
Thanks for checking in on me!

I had an extesive thread with numerous & long post on my part on the emotional needs board. And I just popped in a post I thought wpould "stand alone," but there was too much connected to other posts nit here -- sorry.
I am not toally stressing over these things, but I am wondering about some of this stuff my W lays on me. I try to get some validation that my instincts are correct & some support that I have a right to enforce some limitations or expectations -- like her running out at 9:00 o'clock at night -- I am continually busted for being too controlling & I have a hard time figuring it out, because my W is more asertive than I & I feel manipulated & beaten down any time I try to make a stand on something. I really do not want to be the domineering, controlling H - I want to pick things that are fair and reasonable & I try to offer perspectives, which get too involved and loss people -- so I apprecaite your patience here!
I have complained about the manner of her dress & I believe I have burned people out on that one. It is an overall attitude she presents that sometimes makes me wonder her motives - But I am reminded & it is so true that I cannot control her - & I know she has issues & that I cannot cure her - she has to want to --

In conflicts my natural tendency is to back off. You have learned this stuff really well - Thanks for the summaries here!
I am afraid, due in a big way to my W's family background, that she is very sensative & negative towards most anything I present as a strategy - She has even said in Counseling that she reacts this way because she is reminded of her Dad lecturing her & being upset when he helped her with her math and how he yelled at her & put her down when she was trying her best. Of course, like you said, this offers her another reason to not talk about this stuff.
You know Harley states this (spouse trying to teach S) as an inherent problem.
I will study your reply as I know I can learn something there! Thanks!
Good luck in your situation!
BTW, you guys look like a great couple - best of luck!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
I know this stuff is tough, so hang in there, man!!!
Bob

<small>[ August 05, 2002, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: Hurrian Hoosier ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Spacecase:
<strong>

This "independent behavior" thing is, in my opinion, only what appears to be a "socially acceptable" way of saying "I have things to hide from you, and I have the right to them" so I'm certainly not much of a believer in how "real" that is. ... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I had another thought.

She has pretty much said that she would really prefer I not call her during the day (and I have not!) and her defensive posture about when I ask about her plans and all (and I have not very much of late!)-- Perhaps I have moaned about this so much I guess most here lose their patience with me, but I have for the most part gone with the flow with Cindy -- otherwise, I know I come across as controlling to her -- and am accused that I act more like a Father than a Husband with her <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> -- I do vent about this here a lot more than make it an issue with her --

BTW, we had a small, pleasnt conversation this morning about a movie we watched on showtime last night ("MEN VS. WOMEN") it was a humous story about these couples going thru MLC -- The W got upset at H, because he did something that reminded her of her Father -- later he posed the question that maybe this was a problem for her becasue it reminded her that she was bing like her Mother! In a humouris tone, I asked Cindy, "I don't come close to reminding you of hyour dad do I?" She knew I was being saterical! Making refernce to the movie. , She said that I did not & that she should be more like her mom & that she knows that she is like her dad. (Mr. Control & self-centered & non-affectionate) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
I know you have these dances with your W --This may be a lot like it is with many teenagers & their parents. I was reminded of our son. When he was in High School, he was very closed mouth about his plans & would not answer very many questions. Later he explained that he was not always up to no good, but he wanted to maintan the closed mouth appraoch, for when it was a time he wanted to hide something, the pattern was the same.
I believe that is similar to my W's way some times -- I don't think she is having an A right now, but she sure wants the freedom to not have to answer to anyone, as she might put it (negative connotation or spin), and this carries with it the environment, or mindset, almost as if she is single. And with this it does take on the dynamics of a teenager attempting to hide things from the parents. Now is this dynamic my fault? Is this my fault becasue I occassionally ask a question or make a fuss about her running out at 9:00 in the evening with no practical way of getting back before I normally go to bed?

I am reminded of the commercial where they suggest we ask a few questions of our teenagers. Are there not some inherient responsibities H & W have to each other.
I know on golf night, some of the H's do not stay out for a drink & bite to eat becasue their W's prefer they not be left home alone - are the W's in this case being "Contolling?" This is the case with my one couple's friends with whom my W will make an example that the W is out with her friends a lot & not always home with H -- ????

Just some food for thought ...

I'll continue to focus on self though -- I can control that!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Peace to all,
HH

<small>[ August 05, 2002, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: Hurrian Hoosier ]</small>

Bi-sexaul thing?? Not venting! Just a question
I have an interesteing question (at least for me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) to pose & I am not venting really! I am curious about what you think about a swim suit thing.
You know that my darling W has had a real awakining, Se* over the last few years - MLC thing big time for one thing. With this she has shared some things that she has fantasized about being with a woman (in general, I don't a particular one, although she had me take her to a strip club & she really connected with a dancer--lap dance and all! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ) this was before D/Day, BTW!
If you had the patience to read through my novels, this was a part of why I had a problem with her running out at 9:00 PM to join a couple unhappily married ladies at the hot tub.

She is attending a hot tub party tonight. These are the gals in her golf league -- there are around 20 + in the league & I have no idea how may will show - I mean attend <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> !! If this were you, would you go with the modest one piece or the sexy skimpy version? I am perhaps nieeve about the Bi-sexual thing & honestly believe it is not a dominant theme, but can not say for sure.
On the one hand, I could see where she sticks with her original theme that the skimpy bikini is not a se*ual thing (just fashion!) and therefore what is the big deal, go with that. But honestly (and this may just be me and why I ask) I can't help but think that it would take a lot of nerve to show up in the skimpy version with all the gals - what do you think?

I did not say a word or give any indication of any disapproval -- I'm playing golf in my league!
Just curious about your thoughts --
Bob <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />