Bingo, asgood!

That's at least how I took this discussion. Just my own thoughts here, but I don't think I could contribute healthily and positively in any R if I were unhappy with myself. That's a hard thing to shake, because face it (and we're all pretty much in the same situation here): we are facing MAJOR life changes that more than likely were not of our own doing. And it is a loss we are dealing with in many ways too... so it is hard to be happy with yourself when you're terribly confused and frightened.

And Lyxa... you struck a very good chord with:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> realize now that so much of my self-esteem, core values, and "completion" was tied up in the notion that the love my wife and I shared was 'special' and 'meant to be' and that it could be relied on when nothing else could. Boy did she prove me wrong! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We need to know and reinforce to ourselves that whether or not our Ms work out and become whole and healthy again, we CAN be complete and our lives will move forward. I think it's also where we need to do a bit of attitude readjustment--I don't like this situation one damn bit, but you know... I've survived this far, have been becoming a bit stronger each day... and yeah, lots of ups and downs... but what's the alternative to really living MY life? Curling up in a corner somewhere and dying? Nah... forget that... I'm only 42 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I guess this ain't easy and as much as I'd love my M to work out, I realized I won't die from it either and that I can figure out a way to have a real life... it's just gonna take a bit of time I think.

And like I always say... tune in tomorrow different station, different time. Dragonboy (my H) may stick his head of his cave and breathe fire on me or I have to deal with him and I may feel differently and need to vent and end up crying my eyes out... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> This experience is such a roller coaster ride.

Thanks, Lyxa, Firefly and Bluekeys. Glad we caught you on an "up" day Bluekeys! I liked how you wrapped things up so nicely. I was reminded by something Firefly said, some lyrics in a song: We don't live, we exist. Sad when life gets to that point, and I've just GOT to believe there is more than that!

On a side note, had a really important discussion with WH last night about honesty. Discovered and showed WH things that show his dishonesty toward me. What is important to me in sharing this is that I stood my ground! I didn't allow H to deny or minimize the effect these things had on ME and how I feel about them and our M. It is such a great release to really know that I have some ground to stand on, some principles I won't back down from, and if that means the M is over, I can survive that. Amazing. Now if I could just communicate that to Spacecase . . . It's a hard thing to have faith that life will go on. And if it doesn't kill you, you will go on. We don't want to believe it, but it's true.

Anyways, hoping for happier days and true progress in marriage building!

Longtime Lurker - answering...

I have found out that to be true to "me", I must be "complete" within myself. That's been a hard journey unto itself. I've made great strides.
I know I can survive (even thrive) on my own.

He "embellishes" me. That's the only way I can say it. Through all of the turmoil we've gone through and survived, I find that very true.

I wouldn't want it any other way.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
mandm

Hey Mandm040, I like that thought of being embellished. It does sound kind of solitary,though. I really like the notion of having a companion by my side for the majority of my living days, but it is true that when those days are over, I will leave this world as an individual. . . Bears some thinking. I am all for a healthy self. Now for the journey . . .
thanks for the post.

Compliment not complete.

Well, AsGood...
You see, in music the "embellishment adds to, compliments, sometimes even completes, if the music if well enough written! lol.
It's not solitary at all, just side by side accompaniment. One tune working with the other.
I agree that I like this "accompaniment" by my side...

It is ALL a journey...WOW is it! Yes?
Thanks for replying.

(I don't answer here much. I read often.)

Peace to you and all...
mandm

Hey Mandm040, I like that thought of being embellished. It does sound kind of solitary,though. I really like the notion of having a companion by my side for the majority of my living days, but it is true that when those days are over, I will leave this world as an individual. . . Bears some thinking. I am all for a healthy self. Now for the journey . . .
thanks for the post.

Thanks for the posts, Alizarin and Mandm040. Glad to know you are willing to stroke the keyboard, M040, and add your insights. That's what this is all about. And I liked your fine line definition, Alizarin, about complimenting, not completing. Goes to the yin/yang perspective. So now to the really hard question; what to do when the spouse goes outside the marriage for the complimentary experience of someone other than the marriage partner? Fly solo and be happy about it? I wonder if that is a truly "self-actualized" individual, someone who can just love and give and not worry about what they get back? I certainly know I am not there. Just a thought.

Thanks for the responses!

AsGood...
This "concerto" of mine seems incomplete without the contralto, at this point. The juxtaposed half. The "harmony" notes! lol...

In other words. I want HIM in my life.
He wants me in his.
He is writing his accompaniment to work with mine, and mine with his. It's taken MANY pains, but we ARE working it out. It's taken much self introspection, as well as working together...It's been very worth it.
There can be a renewal. There can be a "duet" sound again. It takes much work. It can happen.
That's my experience.
Good luck! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hey M040, you must be a musician! The terminology of music seems to come sooo easily to you! You have really gotten to the core issue: you want your H and he wants you. And if that is the case, then a couple is willing to do the work and it can be done, as you said. Sadly, I'm not sure I am number one for my H. His behavior has shown it. Maybe it's fog; I don't know. Worse, he insists he is not number one on my list. It takes arrogance to tell someone how they feel. And denial on his part. This "You've hurt me as much as I've hurt you." Baloney. He can't begin to know how he's hurt me. Enough of that. I can only hope we reach the point of commitment that you and your H have reached. Thanks for sharing and all the best.

AsGood...
I'm sorry to hear that you are hurting so. It's not a new story for me, but it's still makes me remember those times.
I was once a musician, in another life it seems, but those terms come easily.
AsGood, I know what you mean about the priority thing. In other words, who/what is number one in whose lives...
That's almost funny as a matter of fact, and I don't want to make light of your pain, but for SO long my hubby told me I didn't place him high enough in the order of things (while I tried to tell him he was number one). He, during that time, was entertaining others. He was SO lost, and in a way I was too.
I don't know anything about your story. I'm truly a sometime lurker here. But I've been "lurking" here and there for a long time, and I've been dealing with this for over 2 1/2 years. I don't know how long you have been dealing with this.
I just know that, in the long run, we DID have love for each other, and we didn't want to lose each other. We finally, after much strife, came to hear what we were trying to say to each other. I kept trying to let him know that I loved him and that HE had to figure out WHAT in HIM was the PROBLEM. While there may have been problems within our marriage, NOTHING warranted his choices to CHEAT, except problems and deficiencies within HIM. I own up to MY share of our problems, and he has owned up to his, as well as his choices to go beyond. He's been very repentant, and I've been very patient and listening.
It is just SO hard. It's in fact VERY hard to express after all this time has gone by. At one time, I posted like MAD...now I sometimes lurk (as does he)....but to capture and say those words NOW is very hard...
I do not know honestly WHY I an posting so much tonight. I think perhaps this topic's title "complete, with, or without", drew me in.
I must confess, I didn't read the WHOLE thread - too long! lol...
But AsGood...
If there is ANY hope, please do NOT give up, yet at the same time, take care of yourself, and do NOT let yourself be "abused" in any way...

I know the "baloney"...and I know that there can be hope to survive and thrive - with or without...
Good luck and hugs and strength to you!
mandm
mandm040@yahoo.com

Hey M040, you must be a musician! The terminology of music seems to come sooo easily to you! You have really gotten to the core issue: you want your H and he wants you. And if that is the case, then a couple is willing to do the work and it can be done, as you said. Sadly, I'm not sure I am number one for my H. His behavior has shown it. Maybe it's fog; I don't know. Worse, he insists he is not number one on my list. It takes arrogance to tell someone how they feel. And denial on his part. This "You've hurt me as much as I've hurt you." Baloney. He can't begin to know how he's hurt me. Enough of that. I can only hope we reach the point of commitment that you and your H have reached. Thanks for sharing and all the best.

Hey M040, Thanks for your post. I appreciate your sharing your story. Something your H said struck a chord with me: He said he felt like he wasn't high on your list. Mine has said the same thing to me. What do you think that is? Is that a real impression they have or is it just guilt for what they've done coming out in defense mode (I felt like you were never there for me kind of stuff, or this "I felt like I wasn't important to you, so I cheated on you."

And another thing: when you said that after a long time you and your H reached a point where you knew you still loved each other, you finally HEARD what you saying to each other and started working on issues that affected you individually and as a couple. You mentioned your H became repentant. Mine is not. He is sorry in a general way and knows he has caused me pain. He doesn't know!! He has no clue how much he has hurt me. And his nearest interest seems to be how he can show me that this is all my fault. I know he/we will make little progress if this is the track he is going to take.

Was he repentant right away, or did it come after some significant moment of realization?

Thanks for you input, and glad you are both moving in the right direction.