I suppose this question is not an easy one to answer but it has been something I have been thinking about a lot. The question I have is why are WS so cold? Take my wife(WS) for example. I supported her with a solid plan A during this entire mess. However she couldn't find the strength to just be nice towards me. I thought I was the only one that my wife was just cold towards. However this isn't the case. Basically anyone who isn't supporting her or agreeing with what she is doing she has been very cold towards. I guess this goes back to the entire cake eating thing. My wife's parents have not supported her on what she is doing. This is due to many of reasons. At first I thought well her parents just don't agree like I do and that is why my wife is cold towards them. What has really gotten to me is the fact that my wife has always been close to her grandma. Her grandma has always been one of the biggest supporters in my wife's life next to me. Well her grandma is over here visiting from Europe. My wife's family is originally from Europe. Well my wife went over to see her grandma who is staying at her parents house. Her parents were out of town for the weekend. She told her grandma she would be there at four. Well I find out that she showed up like two hours late to see her grandma. She got there and my wife just did her laundry because her apartment doesn't have a washer and dryer. I guess when my wife was there visiting if you call it that and she got like four or five phone calls. When the laundry was done after a few loads she said she had to run. It is one thing to just be cold and mean towards me but she is doing it to everyone who loves her. This seems to be the general pattern that my wife seems to be just pissing off and being cold towards a lot of people. This has gotten to me because this isn't something my wife use to do. Maybe this is the "new" her as she calls it.
Also I am very curious on who is supporting my wife so much? I mean why else would she be doing all these things and not seem to have a single problem with it. Is it her friends? Has she found a new man that she likes? To be this cold and to act that way someone must be fueling the fire? Everyone says to me that she won't come back to me until she has fallen on hard times and she gets out of this pure "fun" mode.
Any thoughts or comments?

It doesn't seem like such unusual behavior, CG.

The WS knows in her heart that what she's doing/done is wrong, and she also knows the moral values of those close to her (BS, parents, grandparents, friends) probably will not support her actions. Therefore it is logical for her to avoid them and thus avoid the potential lecture or disapproval.

Which does NOT necessarily mean that she's getting support for this from another source. She may be getting it from an OM or other friends, new friends, who've gotten the same BS stories about how terrible the BS was to her, etc.

I'd interpret it as avoidance...plain and simple.

I would have to agree with SC. It's so much easier to not deal with those who disapprove. They don't say the right things, and certainly don't tell you what you want to hear. To be social with those people she would really have to find a new source of conversation or something to do that has absolutely nothing to parallel to the affair. This way she can enjoy the company and not think about or have any desire to bring up the affair because she knows that if she should she will run smack dab into a brick wall of disapproval.

If this is the case then chances are that the OM may still be in the picture to an extent to help her feel better about what she's been doing, or at the least some friend or friends are going along with things to help her feel safe and secure. She turns to them because they listen without judgment and in turn she views that as approval and that she's ok. The friends may not so much as mean to do damage, but only desire to be there for her to listen and lend a shoulder, but in fact they are truly causing more damage then anything.

Then there could also be the fact that she is hitting that bottom, or starting to, and has begun to come down hard on herself about what she has done. This too will make her desire to not be around those who love her and have values beyond an affair. The reason for this is that she may wonder how they look at her now. How can they possibly love her after what she has done. What if they look at her and see her as evil and dirty. She could be afraid to see their disappointment in their eyes, even if it really isn't there.

I guess it all depends on where she is at in her own mind. I don't know how much help this will be, but I am speaking through my own experiences. My family didn't know about things till I started recover on d-day, so I had a bit of uneasyness when I thought about how they might view me, think of me and/or feel about me when around me. Actually, it was more my DH family and close friends (whom I valued) that I felt this way around.

However, when I was active in my affair I did avoid some people for the very reason that I didn't want to know what they felt or hear what they had to say. I had a couple of friends who either didn't discourage it (which in my eyes told me what I was doing was ok and/or justified) or who really acted like there was nothing wrong with what I was doing. Of course, whenever I had had enough of thinking about those who disapproved, it only took a couple minutes of talking to the OM to block all that out.

I hope this helps, and I really hope that your WW is coming to the point of hitting that bottom instead of really desiring the justification. I wish you the best, and hope that things get better for you soon. Take care.

Spacecase, ditto the avoidance.

I also think it's due to confusion, guilt, and fear. I don't know if anyone really SUPPORTS these affairs other than the WS and the OP. The situations they are in could encourage affairs, perhaps.

I know in my case, my H is very fearful and guilty--at least it seems so from the behavior I observe. And for a while before my H confessed his affair, I noticed some signs of depression in him, I got depressed myself, and things on the domestic front were pretty crappy (financial arguments, we both were working long hours, the chaos of raising four daughters...), it got really hard. So, that situation could have been so negatively charged for him that he couldn't stand it, either. Now, I'm not beating myself up for that... it took both of us to create that situation. But neither of us confronted reality rationally either. He withdrew, I questioned. He got upset, I got anxious. Became vicious cycle.

As long as he can control the situation, he'll put out a "confident" attitude. But, if the conversation moves towards our R, he's afraid that'll I'll judge, moralize, get on a stump. Which, unfortunately, I did in the beginning of this whole wicked mess. They also feel afraid that they're "trapped" into something that will limit them somehow... almost as if there is a bigger, brighter, better world for them while they're in an affair.

Somewhere in this site (I think a few places actually) is a discussion about "soulmates" and the perceptions that WSs have about "love". Their OPs are like a drug or an addiction to them, almost as if that person is "the one and only"--but there is no sense of reality to that relationship, either. They don't want the real world to interrupt it.

Just from my perspective because I'm pretty convinced my H is going through an MLC, they are undergoing enormous changes too in their outlook in life. Don't think anyone "understands" them or will "listen" to them. In my case, "listening" means that I have to just shut up and deal with it. Well, it's a pretty hard thing to do when they're involved in As and in odd behavior too.

<small>[ August 01, 2002, 08:36 AM: Message edited by: bluekeys ]</small>

Ditto SC and tutter...

I'd add that no matter how must "justification" she gets from others, they aren't living her life... and so she will naturally have to face the consequences of her decisions ON HER OWN at SOME point. Reality is reality, and she's now living alone, without her H to turn to. Have faith that that will mean something to her... maybe it will take some time, but her friends will not allow her to live the kind of life she's given up (for now).

Bluekeys - I hope you don't mind but I wanted to touch on a couple of things in your post.

"But neither of us confronted reality rationally either... They also feel afraid that they're "trapped" into something that will limit them somehow... almost as if there is a bigger, brighter, better world for them while they're in an affair."

The best way I can explain these statements to you from the WS's eyes is that the affair is sort of an out from reality. It gives us an excape from the complications of dealing with the stresses of life (financial issues, raising the kids, etc.) We can run off for a couple of hours and be outside of our fenced in yard. However, we fail to realize that the grass isn't greener on the other side of the fence, it's really a matter of how we tend to it.

"But, if the conversation moves towards our R, he's afraid that'll I'll judge, moralize, get on a stump. Which, unfortunately, I did in the beginning of this whole wicked mess."

It is totally understandable why you would have acted that way. My husband often did as well. Heck, I did that too at times. Over time we have both learned to listen and communicate better. As you both see the other working on communication you will both begin to be more comfortable talking. Try to express to him that you know you have done this in the past and you are really working on it and hope that he will help you and try to begin to be more comfortable discussing these things. It will take some time, for both of you, and it's completely understandable, but it will happen.

I just thought you could use some inside thoughts on this. I hope it helps some. My best to you.

WEll one hard part I have never been able to swallow is that my wife is now hanging out a lot with her two best friends from high school. They were the two girlfriends who she partied with a lot back in the high school days. The part I don't like is over and over in our relationship my wife said I will never give up my two friends, never. I never asked her to do this during our relationship but it is very sad that she wouldn't give up her two friends for her spouse if it came down to that. So now I think my wife is just going to run away with her two friends and party and just have fun. She is going to try and have fun 24/7 so she doesn't think about what she has done.
I don't wish anything bad upon my wife but at the same time I hope something happens that will some how make her think just a little bit more rational then just walking away like she did after nine years. She doesn't hate me and she says she loves me and cares for me but just not the "In Love" with me bit. If she hated me that would be another story.
You are all right her friends are going to listen and not judge like the people who truly love her. I guess as long as she has these friends around for them to listen to her I won't have a wife.
My worse fear is my wife will go years before she realizes what she has done to me and those who were so close to her. But at this point I don't think my wife will be coming around any time soon. I mean come on she can do what she wants when she wants. She can drink, smoke pot, have people over, dance with guys at clubs, be hit up on at bars, etc.. I guess she gave herself that gift of her own cake...
Will I ever be able to forgive my wife. I think is she worked on the relationship, yes. But if she keeps walking away, no......

Tutter... don't mind at all. I've been pretty open about this whole thing... another angle that bugs H to death. I've been dealing with it openly (not blabbing all details to everyone, but not holding back when I felt I needed to understand or learn or whatever... he at times asked me not to say anything.. arghghg) It's that element of secrecy that supports As... not people really.

The statement about leaving reality is on target from what I've seen. That whole A seemed like a fantasy. And no doubt, was there pressure here. For both of us.

As for

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Try to express to him that you know you have done this in the past and you are really working on it and hope that he will help you and try to begin to be more comfortable discussing these things. It will take some time, for both of you, and it's completely understandable, but it will happen. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will but, not right away. Things are pretty precarious right now, so I'm just shutting up and trying to not even contact him. Plan B'ing in MB terms. (I'm actually using the Divorce Busting principles in most part... last resort techniques, but there's a heck of a lot of good info to get here, too. Active on both boards now.) I guess what I want to happen (goal here) is to cool this situation off since I've made one too many mistakes. I think attempting something right now to even explain myself or discuss things I've done may seem like a game or a trick to him... he's angry, paranoid, and withdrawn. And, me... well, I'm just not about to incite another vicious argument. I can't handle it right now. I figure that if he doesn't move on the DIY divorce kit he's got, that some truce-like peace can slowly happen here, maybe start some kind of place where we can establish a small bit of trust.

Yes, you've helped tremendously. It's literally amazing how similar so many of these situations are. Almost as if these As were scripted. Details may be different, but the reactions, statements, and attitudes are so similar...

I think the ws anesthsise themselves by withdrawing. I don't think they could ignore grandmothers if they didn't. I think their a's are big, fat rationalizations. No one walks around thinking they're terrible for having an affair while they're in the middle of it. So much of what I read is how they rationalize it away..his wife isn't there for him, she doesn't care, etc. I know I felt puzzled just like you...my h drifted from God and religion, his best friend from grade school, all the people in our congregation, and even his children. Distance makes the game easier to play. She's just going through the motions of life right now with no real joy. Hope this helps. Debra