Hi i have been lurking for many months now and have not had the guts to post until today. i had an A for a few weeks over the christmas period. i told my H about the affair but i did continue with it for a few weeks after. i am vry ashamed and distraught at the effect that it has had on my H he is devastated and is being very supportive. I find that i get very angry if he mentions his fears and needs and i am useless at giving any thing without getting really upset or worse angry at him and yewt he has done nothing wrong. I am scared that i have damaged our relationship too much. i feel very distant from my H and feel that i have to go inside myself a lot to cope with his pain. I feel like i have done such a terrible thing hurting him so badly and that i am so bad at giving him the support he needs. i feel like running away but i have young children and dont want tohurt them. please help me i am so confused.

I am sorry for your pain. My H had an affair with my former best friend. It was devastating, but we did live through it. I suggest the following:

1. counseling. I don't consider this optional. We would be divorced without it.
2. lots of prayer if that applies to you. I believe in miracles
3. reading. The book Torn Asunder and the article 'Shattered Vows' at findarticles.com are both very useful
4. time. This is the hard one but it really does help.
5. a support network. You both need to have friends and others to confide in/vent to.
6. do the EN questionaire and decide which needs your OM were meeting that your H should be.

Since you have children, I really hope you can work this out. Keep posting

Hmmm, well only you can know exactly why you are angry. But it may take some hard looking and soul searching to find out why.

A good therapist can help you work through anger.

Some thoughts come to mind from the tiny bit you told us.

Are you angry that your husband left you vulnerable and needy and that it led to your affair?

Are you angry at yourself, for making such a terrible mistake?

Are you using anger to cover pain, guilt and fear?

Did you have expectations that did not come to fruition, that leave you feeling frustrated, cheated...and angry?

Do you have alot of stress in your life (besides the affair)? Do you blame others for that stress?

I suspect that your answer won't be neat, tidy or simple.

the problem is that i am trying to deal with a lot of abuse issues from my childhood. I am not using this as an exuse for the A but i think in some small way that because my self esteem is low and the OM gave a boost to it it contributed to my decision because it was a boost that someone wanted me. although now i know that my H wanted me at the time he was so busy all the time and we were going through a patch were we just were kind of going through the marraige motions if that makes sense.The mistake i made was that i thought that the OM wanted ME but i realise now that he just wanted sex and not me at all which had the adverse effect and destryoed my self esteem even more.I realise that my H actualy wants ME and now i am really struggling with that as i feel unworthy of his love and also i cant cope with the pain i have caused in my relationship, which also damages my self esteem. it is a bit of a viscious cycle i suppose.I find it incredibly hard to let him in.And sometimes i have this awful yearning for the OM even though i know it is wrong and i dont want to feel it.

Crip

Look at my posts "So Unsure". I am in exactly the same place as you, in terms of confusion, and the people giving advice there have been great. I was worried that I would be judged harshly because of the A but so many people are giving support and advice.

I am still not sure if I can have my H come home and live here with me, although someone has told me that with this being my decision it is wrong - if it is a joint one, well that's different. I'm scared to do the wrong thing, I ache through missing the OM (yeah, remember as well, he probably isn't thinking of you in the same way as my OM surely isn't with me)and I just feel like the worst person in the world.

You are still going through WD from the OM (as am I), and I know this confuses me - how can I stay with my H when I love someone else? All the bright people on here have lots of answers and support.

You have children too invovled. Although I do not have my own, my H's first marriage broke down when my youngest step-daughter was less than a year old. Whilst not an ideal situation and not one that I am promoting, my girls are wonderful, bright, clever and well rounded. They consider me a third parent, and this year, my youngest was Pupil of the Year at school. It is early days for you, and you must also consider their needs.

Hang in there - it is awful, but yesterday I didn't cry and that was the first day in more than 5 weeks - must be getting better and stronger!!!

Lisa

Thanks Lisa
i am so glad to read your reply. I feel so bad about the whole withdrawal thing and whether i have any rights to feel it. I havent seen him for 4 weeks and that was just to talk to. There has been no intimate contact since february. i have these mixed emotions all the time. one day i respect and love my H and m so grateful for having him and another i just want to be totally independent from him. It is not that i want to be with the OM or that i want to be with any one i just want to find me and who i am and that is very difficult when you have to consider the needs of the partner that you have hurt and to try not to cause any more. I am so used to having my own time and space because he has always been busy and since the A he wants to create this world together all the time and i am finding it really claustrophobic sometimes.

I am sorry to ramble but this is the first time i have really felt that i can say these things
chris

Hi crip,

I am a BS, but I hope I can offer you two pieces of advice no-one else has mentioned so far.

The first is that you must have absolutely NO contact with your OM again. Every time you see him or talk to him, it is going to put you back to square one as far as the withdrawal goes. You said you have not seen him in four weeks, but have you called, emailed, etc? ALL contact bar NONE must be given up if your marriage has a chance.

The second thing is this...when you are in the throes of despair about your actions you are probably feeling a lot of guilt, and your husband's grief over the affair is just too much for you to bear. You MUST forgive yourself, totally and honestly. And forgive your H as well for what ever part he played in paving the road to the affair. Not forgiving yourself will come out in anger every time your H mentions the A because you are already beating yourself over the head with it, and you don't want him doing it too.

So, true forgiveness of self will diminish the anger, I believe.

Love and light,

Jacky

Well if you are dealing with unresolved abuse issues, its very likely that you have alot of very intense suppressed anger.

Unfortunately, no matter how hard you stuff the anger, it eventually does overflow and come exploding out. Unfortunately, the anger is often turned in the safest direction possible, and in this case, sounds like its your husband.

Recently, my SIL had this experience. Her postpartum depression (depression is anger turned on yourself) was the straw that broke the camel's back. Thank goodness she called me instead of hurting herself or her new baby. Her therapy specifically targets anger - all her suppressed anger from years and years of growing up in an alcoholic home.

She and I talk alot about anger now. That much anger is a very scary frightening thing - first we suppress it because of fear of retribution by others, then we suppress it because we don't want to be "bad" (or have others think badly of us), and then finally we end up suppressing it because it is so ugly, so powerful, so scary that we are afraid it will explode out of control and consume everything in its path.

Unfortunately, suppressing anger like that is not very effective. It will eat you from the inside out.

So, in addition to targeting the Why of your anger, you also need to be learning tools and skills for releasing that anger. Get a punching bag - seriously. Hang it in the garage and go for it at least once a day for 15 minutes. For 15 minutes, let all that anger just explode, and direct it at the bag. When your 15 minutes are up...put the anger away til tomorrow <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Journalling can also help. Writing what makes you anger and what also scares you is a terrific way to "out" those feelings that are destroying you.

If I could describe my anger, I would describe it as a awesome, vast, deep black pit. I was so very afraid to let my anger go because I was afraid of being sucked into the blackness and never ever being able to find my way back. When I think about my anger, I feel incredibly miniscule and helpless before a huge raging black vortex.

For others, that anger is RED. Deep, boiling, angery firey red that may explode and destroy at any moment.

What is your anger like?

I would strongly urge you to get yourself into therapy. One should not deal with this kind of anger alone.

In addition to the anger issues, you need to address the self-esteem issues. When one's sense of self-worth is grounded in what other people think and say about you, you are left in a very vulnerable spot emotionally. I suspect your anger and your affair are probably both related to this issue, tho in different ways.

These are both things that you need to start to fix about yourself, before you can fix your marriage. Have your therapist talk to your husband after you've had a few sessions, so that he or she can explain some of this to him, and reassure him that your issues are being worked on and that when you are finished, you'll be someone worth the struggle for <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

One other interesting thing to note about supressed anger is that anger is usually covering other emotions (fear, guilt, embarrassment). And suppressing anger suppresses those emotions too. Of course if you can make those feelings disappear, you don't have to deal with them. So suppressing that anger becomes quite an evil cycle.

In addition to also suppressing those so-called negative emotions....unfortunately, suppressing only one or a few emotions does not happen. When we start suppressing anger, we also suppress joy, love, happiness and all those other real emotions.

When you are able to start dealing with your anger, you will be amazed at how much more colorful emotionally, how much more beautiful life will become when you can start experiencing a full range of natural, human, emotion.

Thanks for all the time you are giving me everyone and thatnkyou for not beating me over the head.

I think that i do have a lot of suppressed anger and i find it easier to just hold it all back because i am so afraid to let it out. i dont want to disapear into it and not come out again. I am seeing a therapist and although she is a lovely lady i am not sure that she is helping me to deal with my issues. I have been thinking about changing but i am worried about going through all the beginnings again and then finding that it doesn't help.

I find it hard to talk to my H because i have betrayd him and have the other issues and the A becomes tangled with my emotions about the abuse so it is difficult.

i did get very low and tried to kill myself a few times and have been cutting my arms really badly to help me get through the pain of all this and so my H has a more difficult job because he has to cope with all that too. we have three beautiful children which help us to keep going. They are away this week and we will have a lot of time to spend together. I have mixed feelings about it half of me wants to spend time with him and the other half just wants to run a mile because i cannot cope with the intimacy.

As regards the OM i have had no contact at all by phone or anything and i dont think that i could cope with it at all. plus i promised th\t i would not and i want to keep my promise.

Ihave this overwhelming feeling that i am going to pop any moment and i am really scared.

Hi Chris,

Again, the hurting yourself is related to supressed anger. It's anger turned on yourself.

You absolutely MUST find more effective therapy and do it as soon as possible.

I'll post a chapter from a book that I think will help you. The book is on Amazon if you want to get it. Dr. Fitzgibbons does telephone counseling if you are interested.

Chris, This is long, but this is well worth the read, IMHO.

As I was reading this chapter this morning, it occured to me that much of your anger towards your husband (and including why you betrayed him) might be anger against a male abuser in your past that is being deflected. Obviously, you'll have to explore this with a professional. Anyway, read on, I hope it helps.

In Helping Clients Forgive: An Empirical Guide for Resolving Anger and Restoring Hope.
2000 Enright & Fitzgibbons. American Psychological Association Books, Washington, D.C.

Chapter 7

Forgiveness in Depressive Disorders

Myrna was a thirty year old single female who sought treatment for depressive symptoms which she believed were the result of painful feelings of loneliness in her life. She hoped she would find a man whom she could trust because she wanted to marry and have a family. Aware of anger toward those who had hurt her in the recent past, Myrna was surprised at the amount of anger toward other men in her life which was uncovered during therapy.

In this chapter the use of forgiveness will be described in the treatment of her depressive disorder, as well as the role of her anger and mistrust in her relationship with the therapist. We will also present the role of anger in depressive disorders, an overview of the four phases of forgiveness therapy and the uses of forgiveness therapy in clinical cases of various depressive disorders. The limitations of forgiveness will also be discussed.

From our clinical experience, identification and treatment of anger in depressed patients is an essential aspect of treatment facilitating recovery and protecting against relapse. The degree of anger in the depressed patient should be evaluated by an adequate history and the use of objective and subjective anger measures. Many depressed patients are able to identify significant amounts of unresolved anger which were denied over an extended period of time. When used in association with other therapeutic modalities, including psychopharmacology, cognitive and behavioral therapy, or marital and family therapy, the psychotherapeutic use of forgiveness can resolve the anger associated with depressive disorders (Fitzgibbons, 1986). Forgiveness has been shown to reduce depressive symptoms in one study of women who had been sexually abused (Freedman & Enright, 1996) and has been recommended in the treatment of depression (Fitzgibbons, 1986).

The Role of Anger in Depressive Disorders

Numerous studies have shown that anger and hostility are quite common among patients with depressive disorders ( Fava, 1998; Fava, Alpert, Nierenberg, Ghaemi, O’Sullivan, Tedlow, Worthington, Rosenbaum, 1996; Fava and Rosenbaum, 1997; ; Fava, Rosenbaum, Pava, McCarthy, Steingard, Bouffides, 1993; Fava, Nierenberg, Quitkin, Zisook, Pearlstein, Stone, Rosenbaum, 1997; Gould, Ball, Kaspi, Otto, Pollack, Shekhar, Fava, 1996; Morand, Thomas, Bungener, Ferreri, Jouvent, 1998).

As far back as 1966, Overall identified a hostile mistrustful subtype of depressed patients (Overall, Hollister, Johnson, Pennington, 1966) who exhibited high overt hostility, agitation, suspicion, anxiety, somatic concern, tension, and guilt. These symptoms appeared with second greatest frequency among depressed patients with an the overall prevalence rate of 34% (Overall, Goldstein, Brauzer, 1971). In another study of depressed patients (Baker, Dorzab, Winokur & Cadoret, 1971) 60% reported increased irritability. Snaith and Taylor (1985) reported moderate to severe irritability in 36% of depressed inpatients. Depressed patients reported significantly greater levels of anger and hostility than normal controls (Fava, Kellner, Munari, Pavan, & Pesarin, 1982; Riley, Treiber, Woods, 1989) with no significant relationship between anger expression measures and severity of depression (Riley et al., 1989). As Fava and Rosenbaum (1997) have observed, these findings clearly challenge the psycho-dynamic hypothesis of a reciprocal relationship between depression and anger. Also, Montfort (1995) has suggested that many difficult, elderly patients are often misdiagnosed with personality disorders, when in fact they suffer from hostile depression.

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (4th ed., DSM-IV; American Psychiatric Association, 1994) description of major depressive disorder includes irritable mood as one of the core symptoms of this form of unipolar depression in children and adolescents. In one study of children and teenagers with major depression irritability was reported in 83% of the participants (Ryan, Puig-Antich, Ambrosini, Rabinovich, Robinson, Nelson, Iyengar, & Twomey, 1987). In another study of depressed adolescents oppositional defiant disorder was comorbid in 73% of those with severe major depression and in 47% of those with mild major depression (Biederman, Faraone, Mick, & Lelon, 1995). In addition, conduct disorder has been documented in 20 to 30% of depressed adolescents (Biederman et al., 1995; Kovacs, Paulauskas, Gatsonis, & Richards, 1988). Angold and Costello (1993) reported in their review of recent studies high rates of conduct and oppositional defiant disorder (21% to 83%) in adolescents with major depression.

Comorbid antisocial behavior, the most extreme manifestation of excessive anger in children, has been reported to be an associated feature of major depression in pediatric patients (Geller, Chestnut, Miller, Price, & Yates, 1985) and has predicted the persistence of depressive symptoms in 9-year-old boys (McGee & Williams, 1988). Also, children with prepubertal-onset major depressive disorder went on to have increased risk of conduct disorder and substance abuse (Weissman, Wolk, Wickramaratne, Goldstein, Adams, Greenwald, Ryan, Dahl, & Steinberg, 1999). Excessive anger has been shown to be associated with suicidality in adolescents. Simmonds, McMahon, & Armstrong (1991) found that young suicide attempters were more hostile than community controls. Asper, Bleich, Plutchik, Mendelsohn, & Tyano (1988) reported that in a group of adolescent psychiatric inpatients, those with conduct disorder had more suicidal feelings than those with major depression. Hawton, Osborn, O’Grady, & Cole (1982) found that 50% of adolescents with a history of antisocial behavior who took overdoses repeated an overdose within a year, a much higher repetition rate than that of adolescents who overdosed without an antisocial history. Also, a significant correlation was found between measures of suidical behavior, aggressive behavior, and impulsivity in a study of 118 inpatient adolescents (Horesh, Gothelf, Ofek, Weizman, & Apter, 1999). In another study of adolescent inpatients aggression was found to be as important as depression in some kinds of suicidal behaviors (Apter et al., 1995).

Adolescents with a history of a previous overdose and/or who repeated self-harm differed from non-repeaters in having higher scores for depression, hopelessness and trait anger (Hawton, Kingsbury, Steinhardt, & Fagg, 1999) and in already highly anxious and depresed suicidal adolescent inpatients, a trend toward increased aggression was noted among multiple suicide attempters in all parameters evaluated (Stein, Apter, Ratzoni, Har-Even, & Avidan, 1998). Based on this study Stein et al (1998) recommended that the treatment of youngsters with a history of suicide attempts must include the evaluation and management of aggressive impulses, as well as depressive features.

M. Fava, Anderson, and Rosenbaum, (1990) first reported a series of illustrative cases in which depressed patients presented anger attacks. Patients were classified as having anger attacks if they exhibited the following criteria: 1) irritability during the previous six months, 2) overreaction to minor annoyances, 3) occurrence of at least one anger attack during the previous month, and 4) experience during one of the attacks of at least four of the following: tachycardia, hot flashes, chest tightness, paresthesia, dizziness, shortness of breath, swearing, trembling, panic, feeling out of control, feeling a desire to attack others, physical or verbal abuse, and throwing or destroying objects (M.Fava et al., 1991). Because treatment of these anger attacks with Prozac produced marked improvement in behavior, it was hypothesized that the attacks were variants of major depressive disorder (Fava et al., 1990). Also, depressed patients with anger attacks were significantly more likely to meet criteria for borderline, histrionic, narcissistic, and anti-social personality disorders than depressed patients without anger attacks (Fava et al, 1993).

Two single-site studies on 127 and 164 outpatients with major depression revealed anger attacks in 44% and 39% of depressed patients, respectively ( Fava et al 1993; Fava, Alpert, Nierenberg, Ghaemi, O’Sullivan, Tedlow, Worthington, Rosenbaum, 1996). A multi-centered study of depressed outpatients found that anger attacks were present in 38% of 94 patients with major depression and 28% of the 74 patients with dysthymia with an overall rate of anger attacks of 34% (Fava et al, 1997).

In another study of anger attacks at two sites, 67% of patients with depression met the criteria for anger attacks (Gould et al, 1996). Also, patients with anger attacks were significantly more depressed than patients without such attacks. Patients with depressive disorders had twice the prevalence of anger attacks than did those with anxiety disorders. In this study, a patient who scored at the 75th percentile on the Beck Depression Inventory ( BDI; a score of 22) was 3.2 times more likely to have anger attacks than a patient who scored at the 25th percentile ( a score of 8). Anger attacks were related to the level of depressed mood as measured by the BDI. In a French study of 103 depressed patients, the prevalence of anger attacks was 46% during a one month period (Morand et al., 1998).

Anger is associated with treatment nonadherence in depressed patients (Pugh, 1983). Weissman, Fox, and Klerman (1973) found that 43% of depressed patients demonstrating angry affect in an interview rating anger failed to start outpatient treatment after discharge from the hospital.

The Relationship between Depression and Anger

The temporal relationship between depression and anger is not clear. Gould (1996) questions whether depression might be secondary to the social and interpersonal consequences of anger attacks. In our clinical work we have come to the view that anger develops soon after a hurt or disappointment and it is closely associated with sadness from the injury. Individuals can deny their anger, express it, and/or forgive (Fitzgibbons, 1986). Riley et al. (1989) found that depressed patients have a tendency to suppress rather than express their anger. However, in a study of depressed children they were less able to to control their anger in a thoughtful, nonimpulsive manner than nondepressed children (Kashani, Dahlmeier, Borduin, Soltys, & Reid, 1995). Also, youths with high hopelessness scores express anger more aggressively than youths with lower scores (Kashani, , 1997). Aggressive behaviors are highly prevalent in depressed youths, with similar types and levels evident in males and females (Knox, M, et al., 2000). Anger can easily encapsulate sadness within the unconscious and interfere with the healing of this sadness from childhood, adolescence, and adulthood. If the anger is resolved through a forgiveness process, it can facilitate the healing of the associated sadness.

Overview of the Four Phases of Forgiveness in Depressed Patients

Uncovering Anger and Hurts

When the history of a depressed patient is taken, major disappointments and anger associated with hurts are identified in significant relationships from childhood into adult life. Most people can readily admit conflicts in adult relationships, but often they have little insight into the role of disappointments from their family of origin that may have provided the basis for their depression. This is particularly true of conflicts in the father relationship because the denial of anger in childhood and adolescence is strongest in that relationship.

At the beginning of treatment, the work of uncovering is facilitated by through the use of a valid subjective measure of anger which rates both active and passive-aggressive forms. We use the measure in Appendix A. In addition, at times a family member is asked to complete a checklist (see Appendix B) which evaluates the patient’s anger. Such measures assist the therapist in helping the patient understand both the depth of anger and the primary method of expressesion. When the results are presented, many people with depressive disorders are surprised to discover the high level of anger indicated. At this point, regular discussion about the masking of anger at different life stages can be initiated. The three basic mechanisms for dealing with anger - denial, expression, and forgiveness - need to be reviewed. Predominant misunderstandings that may need clarification are that anger is an emotion which can be resolved only through expression, that it is experienced only in extreme degrees, and that the absence of blatant manifestations precludes the presence of anger.

Therapists can encounter considerable resistance when they tell patients that they have a problem with anger but fail to give them a safe and effective method for its resolution. These patients fear their anger or feel guilty about it and in the absence of a reliable method for removing it, simply deny its presence. By teaching patients how to resolve anger within themselves, they are more likely to put an end to their denial.

Next cognitive forgiveness exercises can be assigned at this stage based on the person's depressive symptoms and history. The patient may be asked to think of the possibility that he or she wants to try forgiving an individual believed to have hurt the person. Making a decision for forgiveness is a firtst step. At the onset, there may be little conscious awareness of the depth of the hurt and the subsequent sadness and anger that were present in the relationship. Cognitive forgiveness exercises, however, are a powerful method for bringing forth unconscious emotional pain in those with depressive illness and initially their effectiveness may depend largely upon the degree of trust in the therapist. Some depressed patients are aware of disappointment and anger with an emotionally-distant spouse, but they have limited awareness of unresolved sadness and anger with an emotionally-distant parent. When they employ cognitive forgiveness exercises, they begin to discover the anger they have denied and, as a result, may begin to feel some relief from its burden and accompanying sadness.

Another strategy that can be utilized in uncovering anger is to present to clients the possibility that failure to deal honestly with anger and hurts from different life stages may interfere with their recovery from depression. If significant resistance occurs in uncovering anger, the therapist can relate how others have overcome this hurdle; the power of story is not to be underestimated because it allows a person to step back and make important connections.

To the surprise of many, various degrees of active and passive-aggressive anger associated with depression are uncovered at this stage and violent fantasies and impulses as well as anger attacks may become evident.

Decision Phase

The major factor influencing a client’s decision to begin the work of forgiveness is the knowledge that it will help with the resolution of the depressive illness. Many decide to forgive their offenders with great reluctance and they may state that they do not really feel like forgiving them at all. We usually inform these patients that as they grow to understand their offenders and their life struggles, eventually they will feel like forgiving. The distinction between cognitive and emotive forgiveness is important to since many people believe that they are unable to begin the work of forgiveness until they really feel like forgiving the offender.

Another factor which strengthens those in therapy in the pursual of the hard work of forgiveness is the relief they experience from emotional and mental pain as they begin to forgive. Some, though, lose their motivation to continue the process of forgiveness because they want to experience, own, and discuss at length their anger regarding the offender before they are willing to let go of it. By relating successful case histories of depressed patients who have employed forgiveness in their treatment, patients become more willing to make a decision on forgiveness.

When working with clients who have experienced severe betrayal pain leading to depressive illness, the word “forgive” may need to be omitted because it may imply that those who have caused the injury will never be held accountable for their behavior; such misunderstandings of forgiveness sometimes take time to overcome. These people are advised to state that they desire to let go of their hostile feelings and thoughts for revenge. When that step has been taken, they can comfortably move into the work phase of letting go of their anger.

Another helpful factor influencing the decision to forgive is the realization of the damage which can be done to the self by holding onto strong anger. The damage can include failure to overcome emotional pain, misdirection of anger toward people who do not deserve it, the excessive expression of anger in relationships, the development of physical illnesses, or continued emotional control by the offender. Therapists need to be prepared to make these negative consequences known to clients. At the same time, therapists should be able to communicate to clients the benefits of forgiveness when recommending the decision to forgive. These include:

- freedom from the emotional pain of the past

- greater stability of mood

- improved ability to express anger appropriately as the degree of denied anger diminishes

- diminished guilt arising from unconscious anger

- decreased anxiety

- the courage to be vulnerable

- decreased fear of angry impulses or thoughts

- improved loving relationships

Many will decide for forgiveness only after reassurance that they do not have to become vulnerable toward the offender and that forgiveness does not preclude expressing anger or pursuing justice. (See chapter 2 for what forgiveness is not). The resolution of anger with an offender and the investment of trust toward that person are two related but different processes. One can forgive, and at the same time, not trust someone who has inflicted hurt.

In some people, the decision to forgive occurs only after significant pressures are applied by others in the person's life. Spouses, other family members, and partners may threaten to separate or even end a relationship unless the individual makes a commitment to resolve the anger associated with depression. Depressed patients of this type have been described by Overall et al (1966) as mistrustful and hostile. Because of their difficulty in trusting, these clients are usually limited in their ability to try to make a decision to forgive and they also have an impaired capacity to trust the therapist initially. They regularly employ anger as a defense against their mistrust and fear of betrayal. Once a difficulty in trusting has been uncovered, the origins of the conflict must be identified. When clients learn that they may well be controlled by the offenders for the rest of their lives if they do not let go of their anger, many finally decide to work at forgiveness with clenched fists and white knuckles.

At times with the hostile, mistrustful, depressed patient who misdirects anger regularly, it may be necessary to refuse to continue the therapy unless a commitment is made to try to let go of resentment. The inappropriate expression of anger may be directed toward the therapist but the person in treatment must come to the realization that such anger does not benefit anyone and simply delays the resolution of the depression.

Individuals who employ anger as a defense against feelings of sadness and inadequacy are often reluctant to decide to forgive. We find that their self-esteem needs to be strengthened before such a decision can be made, especially in the case of young males. In the final analysis, many people work at forgiveness in the hope that it will help in the healing of their depressive illness.

Work Phase

Forgiveness is possible through a process of attempting to understand the early emotional development of the offenders. Over time, through a detailed history-taking, it becomes clearer that the behavior of many individuals can be attributed to their emotional scars. The process of forgiveness opens up the ability to understand that significant others have loved as much as they were capable of loving, and that the pain was not necessarily inflicted deliberately. As this understanding grows, anger diminishes.

In the work phase of forgiveness, we recommended that the patient consider wanting to forgive another for certain pattern of behavior without dwelling excessively on a particularly traumatic memory. The patient is regularly given a written note or “prescription” which states the patient think about understanding and forgiving several minutes twice daily the offending persons discussed during that session. This forgiveness exercise is also employed during the session and is helpful in evaluating the patient’s ability to engage in the work of forgiveness and in examining difficulties and resistances.

The patient may spend longer than several minutes daily working on forgiving depending upon a number of factors including degree of emotional pain present and whether the hurts are ongoing. Forgiveness is also recommended during times when strong feelings of sadness are present. If strong feelings of anger emerge, the patient is encouraged to spend time each day forgiving the offender and working toward understanding and forgiving others from the past who have caused similar hurt. The daily work of forgiveness in patients with depression usually goes on for many months and in some for years.

Regarding hurts from the past, a forgiveness exercise may be assigned in a relationship in which the person has little or no conscious awareness of the presence of anger. For example, if indicated by the history, the patient may be asked to understand and forgive a parent for not meeting certain emotional needs. In trying to understand the childhood and adolescence of an emotionally-distant or irritable father, a patient usually comes to realize that the father himself struggled with similar difficulties when he was young and that he had, in fact, unconsciously modeled after his own father (the patient’s grandfather). This understanding enhances the ability to forgive the parent. Nevertheless, such patients may spend weeks or months thinking of themselves as children and teenagers trying to understand and forgive a parent for specific disappointments. This process rarely entails going to others and informing them that one is working at forgiving them.

Clients may decide that they want to try to understand and to forgive anyone in the past who has influenced their adult feelings of sadness and anger. These patients might be asked to reflect on the following thought: “Dad or Mom, I want to try to understand and forgive you for all the ways you disappointed me when I was young.”

We refer to this as a past forgiveness exercise and we use it regularly in the treatment of depressive illness. Clients are regularly given a written statement that asks them to try to understand specific conflicts in the offender’s life and to think of forgiving an offender from the past. At follow up sessions, the forgiveness exercises relating to both past and present relationships are reviewed in a manner similar to the way in which cognitive exercises are examined after being assigned (Beck, 1976) and difficulties or resistances are discussed.

Many clients with depression find themselves developing a conscious awareness of the need for forgiveness in daily living as a way to gain control over intense angry feelings. Those with anger attacks report that the regular use of forgiveness diminishes the intensity and frequency of those attacks. Other benefits that clients report are relief from emotional pain, a greater stability in their mood, the ability to seek and give forgiveness, and renewed energy that comes as the need to control angry impulses and thoughts diminishes.

For most people, forgiveness begins as an intellectual process in which there is no true feeling of forgiveness and many have difficulty believing that they are really forgiving. As their understanding grows of their offenders (especially those from their childhood and adolescent years) they will experience more compassion and feelings of forgiveness may follow. The process moves slowly, but meanwhile cognitive forgiveness exercises can be effective.

At times there is great value in reenacting painful life events in the session by asking clients to try to express aloud their disappointments, anger, and desire to forgive offenders. Often clients are highly resistant to this exercise if it does not end with a method for dealing with anger other than simply expressing it. These psychodrama techniques are very helpful approach is helpful when denial is very strong, when anger is expressed primarily in a passive-aggressive fashion, or when there is excessive displacement of the anger onto significant others.

We have seen that depressed clients blame those closest to them now for their symptoms. This is especially the case when there has been childhood emotional trauma with parents. They can be helped by the suggestion that they are, in part, misdirecting their anger and by clarifying how anger can be masked and then later misdirected. If these clients are willing to employ past forgiveness exercises with a parent, they often come to realize the sadness and anger which was experienced early in life and denied.

If the client is forgiving a particular individual and the anger is not decreasing, this may point to either a misplacement of the anger or an unconscious association with someone else from the past who hurt the depressed person in a similar way. The therapist may then ask the patient to think of their childhood and adolecent years and to reflect for a few minutes in the session as to whether this may be occuring.

For those depressed clients with anger attacks or very intense anger, the resolution of resentment can be facilitated by a process which begins with the physical expression of anger in a manner in which others will not be hurt. In this process the client does not visualize the offender as a target of the anger. This is followed immediately by cognitive forgiveness exercises aimed at letting go of the desire for revenge. Relief from intense anger also may be experienced if the person imagines the verbal expression of hostile feelings against the offender and then attempts to give up the desire for revenge.

At times, the participation of the offender in treatment can be of value in the resolution of the patient’s resentment and depressive symptoms. Some parents have detailed their childhood experiences and marital stresses to their adult child and asked for understanding and forgiveness for the times when they hurt or neglected the patient. Such bold steps have often included promises to improve the relationship in the future. Some clients will not be open to accept these apologies and promises and, in fact, might use the apology to emotionally hurt a parent. This can be prevented by the therapist evaluating the openness of the client to understand, to receive the apology and to forgive the parent through roleplaying the parent in a session. The therapist can then determine at what point in time it is appropriate to bring a parent into the therapy.

In some instances, the therapist might consider playing the role of the offender and suggest that the client consider that there were reasons for what appeared to be insensitive behavior. By means of role playing, the patient may be asked to picture a younger self and listen and respond to the therapist as understanding and forgiveness are sought for hurts which influenced the development of depressive symptoms. Obviously, the use of antidepressants can be very helpful in diminishing the level and expression of anger, but they do not resolve the basic conflicts which give rise to the anger.

A number of obstacles are encountered in the uses of forgiveness in the treatment of depression. These include:

- the lack of parental modeling for this process

- role models who regularly overreacted in anger

- powerful denial of resentment from family of origin

- overwhelming impulses for revenge

- inability of loved ones to admit they were wrong

- difficulty in growing to trust others

- narcissism

- significant others who continue to disappoint regularly

- a compulsive need to control.

In the case presentations a number of specific interventions will be described which address these obstacles including other role models in their lives or in history or literature and growth in trust. Since anger is used to defend against feelings of fear, especially the fear of betrayal, many individuals are not able to move ahead with the forgiveness process until their basic ability to trust is enhanced or until they feel more hopeful. Misconceptions that arise are: the belief that forgiveness occurs quickly and that there is no need to spend time working on it, that a one-time cognitive decision to let go of anger resolves all anger from past or present hurts, that forgiving precludes healthy assertiveness, or that the process holds more benefit for the one forgiven than for the forgiver.

Some people hold onto their anger because it may make them feel alive. Others believe it gives them a feeling of power or it may form a bond of intense passion with a former loved one and cover a feeling of emptiness. Revenge, too, is sometimes seen as a sign of strength and intelligence, while forgiveness may represent weakness. (See chapter 3 for a rebuttal to forgiveness as weakness). Anger, it is believed, gives offenders the attention they want and projects a strong image (Novoca, 1986). There are clients, too, who have no real desire to be healthy or who derive benefit from self-pity or playing the sick role. Finally, some individuals are aware that as they forgive they will be led into the reality of disappointments in relationships. Therefore, they will not forgive until they develop loving and trusting relationships which they believe will ease the pain that may arise with forgiveness.

Although forgiveness diminishes the level of anger in depressed clients, it does not fully heal the sadness from different life hurts. However, most clients experience emotional relief as they are able to overcome their angry feelings and then discover a lessening in the intensity of their depressive symptoms.

Deepening Phase and the Limitations of Forgiveness

In the deepening phase, clients have become familiar with the benefits of forgiveness and use it more often when they feel sad or irritable.

Absorbing of the pain that brought about the sadness and anger can be a slow and arduous process. For many who sustained a major loss or betrayal at a particular life stage, significant love and appreciation can strengthen them and enable them to accept the pain from the past.

Over time, many are able to let go of past hurts and accept them by recalling that parents and other family members loved as much as they were capable of loving given their life conflicts. However, a harsh reality may be that some were betrayed so deeply that they may never be able to fully absorb their pain. This response to forgiveness is found frequently in those who were abandoned by loved ones. Some betrayals can be broken down into smaller hurts that can slowly lead to forgiveness with absorption of the pain.

There are a number of life experiences in which the process of forgiveness is particularly arduous and lengthy. These include, in addition to abandonment by loved ones, parental abuse, rape or incest, loss of a career, prolonged insensitivity by a loved one, economic injustice, a legacy of mistrust, hatred or narcissism that has been passed from generation to generation.

In the deepening phase with those depressed clients who are also mistrustful and hostile, therapeutic efforts to build their trust can help in the diminishment of their anger, since this anger is often a defense against their fears of betrayal. Their therapy continues to employ forgiveness against offenders from different life stages, but incorporates cognitive decisions to try to trust people of proven reliability. The slow development of deeper trust in the therapist facilitates this process.

In this phase clients are often relieved from the burden and weight of their inner resentment. The resolution of anger helps to stabilize their mood and protects them from a recurrence of their illness. We now present four case studies that illustrate the use of forgiveness wihin depressive disorders.

Victim of Sexual Abuse

Our first case study is from Freedom and Enright (1996). Several of the participants in a study of forgiveness in sexual abuse initially confused forgiveness with condoning, although Nicole did not. Instead, she saw forgiveness as an obligation without consequences for emotional healing. In her 14 months ofwork, she slowly began to see forgiveness as a beneficient response, freely offered, to her father. What follows is a verbatim account from Freedman and Enright’s article.

Nicole, a 51-year-old divorced woman, was sexually abused by her father as a child. The abuse consisted of Nicole’s father’s fondling and rubbing himself against her body. Nicole’s family did not believe her, when she reported this at age 6, nor were they supportive. She did not receive any therapy or outside help at that time. Nicole’s father, however, also stopped all forms of affection and attention toward her. According to Nicole, until age twenty-five, everything she did centered on getting love from her father. At the first interview, Nicole said that she had suffered from anxiety, panic attacks, depression, and low self-esteem for most of her life. Nicole felt resentment toward her father and she said that she had not forgiven him, but she was curious about the idea. Before coming to us, Nicole was in psychotherapy for eight years (about once or twice a week) and participated in an incest survivor’s group. She also experienced serious physical health problems, such as cancer, and stated that, “ the medical procedures I went through were an easier experience than the betrayal by my father.”

Although Nicole went home on holidays (her parents lived ninety minutes from her), she saw her father as infrequently as possible. She never stayed overnight, talked primarily to her mother, and rarely enjoyed the visits. She described the relationship with her father as “very superficial” and that on occasion, he was verbally abusive.

The first part of the forgiveness process for Nicole was recognizing how she had been using the defense mechanism of displacement. She would frequently act out the feelings she had toward her father while she was with other men. Realizing her unexpressed anger toward her father helped Nicole understand and express her feelings more directly. Nicole used writing as one way to express the anger.

During the intervention, Nicole was able to work through her feelings of guilt for the way her body responded to her father’s physical touch and for many of the things that she did as a result of the abuse. Nicole believed that she was responsible for the abuse continuing because she remembered enjoying some of her father’s touches. When Nicole realized that her body was responding in a normal way to physical touch, she was better able to recognize that she was not in any way responsible for the abuse. She also felt guilty for sexually experimenting with other children, a not uncommon reaction for sexually abused children (Browne & Finkelhor. 1986;

Finkelhor. 1987; Friedrich. 1993). She worked on accepting her behavior and viewing it in context. Gradually, Nicole was able to forgive herself for the hurts she may have inflicted on other children.

Nicole frequently compared her life with her father’s life and she felt there was a real injustice in the fact that she was suffering more intensely than her dad. During the sessions, Nicole was able to identify the positive aspects of her personality that developed as a result of the abuse. Her sensitivity and compassion toward others was one example. Discussing the idea that life is unfair helped Nicole understand that many people are hurt through no fault of their own and that she had no control over some aspects of her life.

When she realized that even after all these years she still felt anxious, depressed, insecure, and dissatisfied with her relationships, Nicole was willing to make a commitment to forgive her father. At first, her decision to forgive was primarily a self-interested activity; she forgave to feel better. As Enright, Gassin, Longinovic, and Loudon (1994) explained, most people consider the idea of forgiveness when they are experiencing emotional pain so hurtful that they must do something to bring about change. She was able to recognize positive qualities about her dad and view him as more than just an abuser. For example, Nicole remembered her father teaching her to drive; he told her that she was smart and encouraged her to go to college. Nicole gathered information from her aunt (father’s sister) about his childhood. She realized that her dad had a very unhappy childhood and that his own family had many problems. Nicole learned that her father was severely abused as a child. She began to place her father’s behavior as an adult in the context of his childhood upbringing. She remembered that when she met her father’s parents she had not liked her grandmother and was very leery of her grandfather. Nicole began to feel sorry for her father because of his difficult childhood. She could now give her father credit for two decisions he had made: to stop drinking and not to physically abuse his children.

Through reframing, Nicole was able to demonstrate behaviorally the compassion and empathy she felt for her dad. At Christmas, she was able to give her father a hug and was also able to send him a birthday card and gift, knowing that he would be appreciative. Nicole realized that the sadness she felt was probably felt by her father. Her positive behavior toward her dad illustrated that she was able to accept and absorb the pain rather than pass it on to him or to others. At this point, Nicole felt that she had forgiven her father intellectually but not emotionally. Two letters she received from her father and the catalyst of her intellectual forgiveness moved Nicole into emotional forgiveness. She stated that, “the letters showed me the very sweet and caring side of my dad, his vulnerability.” Nicole went to her parents for Easter and “had an exceptionally good day.” She mailed her father a present and stated, “I can now say that I truly feel love for my father. Although I will never stop grieving for the loss of my father, I can now feel positive feelings for my dad and accept what he can give me.” By grieving, Nicole meant that she never had the type of father she dreamed about and felt sad about the loss she has experienced.

Nicole’s father had a stroke during the end of the intervention and died a few months later. Nicole was able to be there with him, read to him, and feed him. She felt closer to him during that time than she had ever been in the past. When meeting with the interviewer six months after the intervention, Nicole said that she had been helped greatly, not only with her dad but also with other relationships. She said she coped with her father’s death in a way that may not have been possible prior to the intervention. In a following meeting, Nicole stated that learning how to forgive her father made it much easier to relate to and forgive other people when she feels hurt. She had joined a support group that included survivors, perpetrators, and affected parents. Forgiving her father gave Nicole the insight that was necessary to interact in that group with other perpetrators of sexual abuse.

Major Depressive Episode

Myrna, a thirty-year-old single professional, sought treatment for depression. She believed that the cause of her depressive symptoms was intense loneliness that developed after a dating relationship ended. Myrna had experienced a number of disappointments in relationships with men which resulted in hopelessness, fears of being hurt again, and periodic intense anger. There was also a history of anger attacks. She related that her hopelessness was influenced by intense hurts as a child and adolescent in her home as a result of regular insensitive treatment by her father and emotionally abusive treatment by her older brother. She was aware that she had intense feelings of anger toward males who had hurt her at work and in dating relationships. She knew that she had developed a great difficulty in trusting men and had a major problem with anger toward them. At the same time she expressed the hope that some day she would marry and have children.

Myrna was pleased to learn of another method for releasing her anger other than through expressing it. In fact, she felt guilty because she was aware that at times she had overreacted in anger because of her failure to let go of her resentment from past hurts. She had a great deal of insight and was aware that if she did not resolve her anger with males who had hurt her that it could cause major problems in a loving relationship in the future. Subsequently, she decided to attempt the work of forgiveness. The greatest challenge to her was that of reframing or truly understanding those who had hurt her, particulalry her brother and insensitive and crude males in her personal life and work. She related: “If I keep thinking that these guys were troubled, I find it easier to let go of my resentment with them, but it’s a struggle.”

After Myrna had been working for several months on forgiving for hurts in her adult life, I told that based on her history and difficulty in trying ot control the sessions that she needed to work on uncovering her anger from her childhood with her critical father and abusive older brother. Her initial response was very defensive and she stated, “I’m over all that pain and there is no reason to go over it.” Then I asked if she had ever thought of forgiving her father and her brother to which she responded, “No”! Somewhat reluctantly she came to agree to think of trying forgiving her male family members because she had been experiencing some relief from forgiving for her adult hurts. In the work of forgiveness she was daily thinking of forgiving from her adult life and from her childhood and adolescence with her father and brothers.

Her excellent sense of humor helped her greatly in her struggle with depression, intense anger, and mistrust. Myrna grew in understanding the emotional conflicts in her father and her brother, facilitating her ability to forgive them. Also, she was helped by the change in their behavior toward her. As an adult each one tried to be kind and supportive and apologized for how they had hurt her when she was younger. She did not feel like forgiving the men she had dated who had hurt her. However, she knew that this was essential if she was going to have a healthy, loving relationship in the future.

In the initial phases of the forgiveness process Myrna’s anger was periodically misdirected at the therapist. Myrna was informed that inappropriate expression of her anger at the therapist did not benefit anyone and simply delayed the resolution of her depressive symptoms. She agreed and committed herself to the work on forgiving and to be more aware of the possibility that she might be misdirecting her resentment.

Myrna was asked to try to think daily that the males who hurt her had their own problems and that she did not want them to control her or limit her happiness. She was asked to read daily a statement which conveyed that she wanted to try to forgive all the males who had betrayed her. At the next session, the daily forgiveness exercises relating to both past and present relationships were reviewed and discussed. At times, Myrna realized how deeply she had been hurt and temporarily she was unable to continue the forgiveness process. She preferred to experience and discuss the previously denied anger with her therapist, father, and brother before releasing it.

Myrna had difficulty believing that she was truly forgiving since she did not feel like forgiving the men who had hurt her, but realizing the benefits, she continued the process. She found that the cognitive exercise of thinking of forgiving decreased her anger and depressive symptoms and improved her ability to try to trust a man again. She came to feel more compassion for those who had hurt her, especially her father and her brother, and developed a greater acceptance of her past hurts.

There were occasions, however, when Myrna tried to forgive a particular man for hurting her, but anger would not diminish. As previously stated, this reaction usually indicates that either there is an unconscious association from the past with someone else who caused similar hurt or that the anger is so deep that it will only dissipate slowly. Upon reflection, Myrna recalled that there was a man she dated in college who had hurt her deeply and as she forgave that individual her anger and sadness decreased. The key to Myrna’s recovery was her willingness to spend a considerable amount of time on the resolution of her pain and anger through each stage of her life.

Approximately one year after her therapy ended she brought her fiance into a session because he wanted an evaluation by the therapist to determine if he had any significant conflicts that he needed to address so that they would not interfere with their successful marriage. At that time, they both appeared to be full of good humor and hope, and they demonstrated a great deal of freedom in a loving relationship.

Single people, like Myrna, who struggle with depressive illness as a result of loneliness and hurts in relationships, benefit from working at forgiving those whom they have dated in the past and members of their family of origin. The removal of resentment facilitates the resolution of their depression and protects them from the danger of misdirecting it or causing further personal physical, emotional of mental harm.

Major Depression, Recurrent

Those with recurrent depressive illness usually have significant degrees of anger with individuals who hurt them at different life stages. We have seen that the ability to face the anger and forgive offenders often times results in the diminishment of the depressive symptoms. In treating recurrent depressive illness there is great value in asking patients to work regularly at forgiving all those who disappointed them in family life, in important loving relationships, or at work.

Joshua, a forty-year-old married father with two children, developed intense anxiety as well as severe depressive symptoms as he neared completion of training for a new career. His father, too, had suffered from depressive illness. For Joshua, this was his fourth major depressive episode.

Initially, Joshua was not aware of his anger with anyone but himself. However, he soon came to realize that he had never faced or tried to resolve powerful feelings of anger toward his father. He deeply resented his father’s inability to ever affirm him or communicate his love to him. He felt bitter that his father never pursued professional help. Guilt was experienced almost as soon as he verbalized his feelings of anger because he was aware that his father had a torturous relationship with his own father (Joshua’s grandfather). Joshua was comforted by the knowledge that his anger was justified, primarily because his relationship with his father had resulted in major emotional weaknesses and conflicts in his life.

The cognitive decision to forgive his father also was based on the hope that it might help his recovery from depressive illness, but he had no emotional desire to forgive him. Joshua employed past forgiveness exercises in which he tried to imagine telling his father how much he disappointed him during different stages of his life. That was followed by reflection on the fact that he wanted to try to forgive him for past hurts. It was an intense struggle for Joshua, and, for a period a time, he experienced increasing symptoms of rage with his father. He even discovered repressed violent impulses against his father which presented clinically as thoughts of harming his children.

Joshua was able to continue the forgiveness process as he grew in compassion and understood the emotional pain his father had suffered himself as a child and young man toward his own very angry and controlling father. Joshua wept regularly both for his father’s pain and for his own. The regular work of daily forgiving his father gave Joshua a sense that the hold of the pain of his past was diminishing in his life. He came to feel freer and less depressed. The awareness that his father had loved him as much as he was able to love, comforted and strengthened him. However, the work of forgiveness was arduous and many times he felt like giving up. He continued because he was determined not to be controlled by his past; he believed his own father had been damaged by his. Joshua stated, “I have to get rid of this anger and sadness with my father or I will never be healthy.”

Some clients with severe depression clients feel guilty because it takes so long to let go of anger and feel forgiveness. Others experience guilt because they find themselves, at some point, completely unable to give up their anger. Clients also experience guilt as anger emerges with loved ones who have sacrificed for them or struggled with serious family problems, but the guilt diminishes as the anger is legitimized.

In the course of therapy, depressed clients who are married are expected to identify a number of areas in which they are disappointed in important relationships, especially the one with their spouse. They also are expected to work at forgiving those who hurt them in childhood, adolescence and young adult life including, if indicated by the history, parents, siblings, peers, and employers.

Postpartum Depression

An irritable mood is a frequent clinical feature in postpartum depression. Snaith and Taylor (1985) found that 74 percent of a sample of depressed postpartum women had high levels of anger. Pitt (1968) observed that elevated anger was commmon in depressed postpartum women. Case studies of postpartum anger attacks have been reported (Mammen, Shear, Jennings, & Popper, 1997) and in one study of pregnant and postpartum women 62% had anger attacks (Mammen, Shear, Greeno, Wheeler, & Hughes, 1997). Women with postpartum onset major depression experience disturbing aggressive obsessional thoughts more frequently than women with non-postpartum major depression (Wisner, Peindtl, Gigliotti, & Hanusa, 1999). Also, premenstrual irritability has been shown to be correlated with depression during the pregnancy and in the postpartum period (Sugawara, Toda, Shima, Mukai, Sakakura, & Kitamura, 1997). Another study also demonstrated that high hostility during the pregnancy was correlated with postpartum depression (Hayworth et al., 1980). Finally, in a study of women who were pregnant or up to 18 months postpartum, 60% of 50 patients reported anger attacks and those with anger attacks were more likely to have a diagnosis of unipolar depression than those women without anger attacks (Mammen, Shear, Pilkonis, Kolko, Thase, & Greeno, 1999).

Jessica, a thirty year old married woman, had just given birth to her first child. She entered therapy because of symptoms of depression and because of fear concerning powerful impulses she was experiencing that could result in harm to her child. In her confusion and fright, there were times she believed that her baby was evil and had to be destroyed. Initially, Jessica could not understand why she should develop postpartum depression with such strong anger. She was happily married, enjoyed her work and had looked forward to the birth of their first child. However, her husband, who was a physician with a keen interest in emotional and mental health, communicated his strong views as to the origins of her depression and violent impulses. He blamed her mother.

Jessica was the oldest of three children and had grown up in a dysfunctional family. Her father’s career demanded constant travel and he was rarely at home. When she was an adolescent, he died under mysterious circumstances. Jessica was never able to please her mother, a very disturbed woman who had been extremely controlling, critical, and demanding all her life. She had tried to prevent Jessica’s marriage because she was unable to control her fiancee. Subsequently, she treated him in an extraordinarily rude manner.

Jessica related, “My mother is crazy and probably a manic-depressive.” She related that she had grown up in a home in which her mother seemed to derive pleasure from trying to make her feel insecure and fearful. Although she was high spirited and had enjoyed many close friends growing up, she was always very unhappy in her home. She realized that she had been denying a great deal of anger with her mother for many years because essentially she was her only parent. For Jessica the most challening aspect of the healing process was the uncovering of her anger. She stated, “It’s very hard and painful for me to admit how angry I have been.” As the history prior to the birth of her child was reviewed, Jessica was able to uncover powerful resentment toward her mother and she identified her as a disruptive force in her life. Finally, not only her mother’s lack of acceptance of her husband, Mike, but also her offensive treatment of him depressed and angered her.

Because her mother continued in her attempts to undermine Jessica’s relationship with Mike, as a first step in Jessica’s treatment, she was asked to keep her mother at a distance until the time came that she could support her marriage and apologize for her past insensitive behavior. Next, Jessica was given written forgiveness exercises which requested her to to think several times daily of trying to forgive her mother for the ways in which she had hurt her as a child, adolescent, and young woman. She was also requested to use this forgiveness exercise whenever she felt depressed. She decided to work on forgiving her mother when she came to understand that it was the anger toward her mother that she was misdirecting toward her baby. She understood that forgiveness could drain off this abscess of hatred which she harbored toward her mother. As she worked on forgiving her mother, Jessica felt an enormous amount of buried rage with her mother enter consciousness and she was grateful that she did not have to deal with her mother during this phase of treatment because of the power of these emotions.

As Jessica continued forgiving her mother, her angry thoughts toward her child decreased significantly. When such painful ideas entered her mind, she would respond to them by thinking that they represented misdirected anger which was really meant for her mother. Then she would say to herself “My mother was a very lonely, troubled woman and I want to forgive her so that she can no longer control me.” After approximately six months, the angry impulses toward her child were completely eliminated and her depressive symptoms were resolved. The forgiveness process with her mother went on for several years.

Other origins of strong anger which are uncovered in treating women with postpartum depressions are from hurts and disappointments with spouses, fathers, and significant others.

Toward the Future

As conclusions are published and information is disseminated, there is every hope that therapists themselves will become more open to examine countertransference issues in the treatment of the anger associated with mood disorders. The personal journey of the therapist in attempting to resolve anger at different life stages is helpful at various levels. Not least among them will be a greater ability to help others recognize and recover from emotional pain and anger.

Forgiveness can play an important role as a therapeutic process to resolve the anger associated with depressive disorders. The treatment of youngsters with a history of severe depressive illness should include the evaluation and management of their anger. Also, inquiring about the presence of anger attacks is important in the uncovering phase because as Mammen et al’s research (1999) has demonstrated, those with and without anger attacks often appear similar in sessions. The removal of anger can facilitate the resolution of depressive episodes, and, in many patients, helps to prevent relapses in ways which are not clearly understood. Hopefully, in the years ahead, research studies will demonstrate the clinical value of the use of forgiveness in mood disorders and clarify its methods of action.

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Riley, W.T., Treiber, F. A., Woods, M.G.,

Hi Crip, welcome to MB's <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You have a similar situation to me. My Wife has had an A. This was during us trying to resolve her child abuse issues (father).

She is very unstable and often confused about her emotions, one minute ok the next upset the next angry. Not really at any thing in particular but often at me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Her IC says that this is actually very normal and will be worked thru in time, that there are "phases" to abuse recovery. Anger is one such phase. It is normal for a survivor to misdirect their anger at those near to them and like it says above that seems to be your H.

Sadly we also have the confusion of the A. I am trying to recover from that as well so I have needs that my wife feels unable to meet. She does try and meet those she can often in as much or as little ways as she feels she can. It might be things like just telling me how she feels about me when she does (affection), general talking about anything (communication), occasional sex (SF) when she fills able to give (this I leave to her bcos of the issues), going out and doing stuff (companionship - might be just cleaning the yard!), etc etc. The key one for me at this time is that she is honest. I need the complete truth because she has to rebuild my trust.

Do you know what your H's EN's are? That would help you to do just a little bit when you can. Do you know what your own are? I have to 2nd guess my wife's because she is not ready to explore that area with me yet. It's too hard for her to work thru these things.

Are you in MC? This will go along way to helping you both? You are in IC but is your H? Has your H learned to calmly talk to you and control the discussions? I had to learn to listen and time the conversations to keep us from fighting. This was one of the best things we have learnt recently.

As far as your relationship goes if your H is there with you he wants it to work with you like I do with my wife. But I have to wait for my wife to work on it with me. But just a word of caution to, I only think I can sustain my attempts for so long, and your H may be the same <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> if however you start to work with him this will change as he feelings will not drop like mine are.

There's a lot of good stuff here for you already in this tread so I'll stop here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

One final thing is that you should post any and every question here that you want answering. It will help to vent and complain without feeling burdened! Read as much as you can too and help others, that is quite a lifting thing also.

Take care and let us know how you get on.
Ben.

<small>[ August 05, 2002, 03:25 AM: Message edited by: The Running Man ]</small>

thanks Ben,

I can see so much in your post that is similar to our situation. my H is very supportive but trying to deal with his own issues . He did do the EN questionaire and keeps asking me do do it but i am not ready to tackle it. I think that it is because i do not really know what they are at the moment.

Obviously i am concerned that my H feelings will diminish for me if i dont hurry up and get things sorted out. i try to do things to let him know i love him like SF and cooking and making sure the house and kids are sorted so that he doesnt have to worry when he gets in from work each day.

I have really found all the replies so positive and helpful. We are not in MC but it may be a thing to think about in the future. At the moment i am trying to concentrate on holding things together and getting through each day. I think that it must be incredibly hard for the BS like you and my H especially with the added burden of the abuse issues. I expect there to come a point where my H thinks i can only do this for so long and it almost feels like a threat but i really am at a point where primarily i need to find myself again and in a way it is wonderful to have support but i know that i could still do that if i were on my own. And i wouldnt want to keep him from a happy fulfilled life just because i am a mess.

crip

Crip, glad to know it was a help.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by crip:
<strong>He did do the EN questionaire and keeps asking me do do it but i am not ready to tackle it. I think that it is because i do not really know what they are at the moment.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">They're about YOU identifying what makes up YOU as person and what the important things are to you in life. For example if Communication is very important to you and your H doesn't talk to you you will feel neglected often regardless of whatever else he does. It's sort of learning about what makes you tick as a person and how he can then meet those needs so that you don't feel like you are going thru those marriage motions.

The link is here:
Harley's Emotional Needs

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Obviously i am concerned that my H feelings will diminish for me if i dont hurry up and get things sorted out.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That sounds like I said you should rush, I didn't mean that. What I mean't was if you are meeting his needs in a small way and he is meeting your needs (actually is he?) you and he will be able to handle your issues. He will be completely drained if you do not do *somethings* for him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>i try to do things to let him know i love him like SF and cooking and making sure the house and kids are sorted so that he doesnt have to worry when he gets in from work each day.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK that's great as long as they are HIS needs. Are they? Also you've said here that you do love him is that the case? If it is then (as a male) telling him spontaneously and frequently would do you and him so much good bcos us males normally have affection and affirmation up near the top on our EN's. He may feel that you don't you see. My W says it infrequently and that's real hard <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

You say that you feel you have damaged the relationship so much but do YOU want the relationship to work?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>At the moment i am trying to concentrate on holding things together and getting through each day.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good and I'm sure that is the best focus. It will take time and make sure you care for yourself and get plenty of {{{hugs}}} here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I think that it must be incredibly hard for the BS like you and my H especially with the added burden of the abuse issues.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes it is I won't lie. But it is no worse than the thought of losing the woman I love. I am trying to be firm in being her support.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I expect there to come a point where my H thinks i can only do this for so long and it almost feels like a threat but i really am at a point where primarily i need to find myself again and in a way it is wonderful to have support but i know that i could still do that if i were on my own.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So what are you actively doing to find yourself and where are you getting the support for that? Is that coming from your H, Doc, Family or others? What support if any have you asked from your H? and has he provided it? Have you made him feel comfortable providing support? (my wife goes thru throes of needing it/fighting me in equal measure! She has recently been fairly clear in what I should and should not do etc).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>And i wouldnt want to keep him from a happy fulfilled life just because i am a mess.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well I understand that comment but it is also a little selfish. I am expecting my Wife to be in a mess for awhile, I am hopeful that in time she has a happy and fulfilled life and that she has that with me. I expect that's what your H would want also if he has been supportive so far and has stayed with you.

One final thing you said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>i feel very distant from my H and feel that i have to go inside myself a lot to cope with his pain.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have you told him this? Has he got other outlets for his issues? Are you not able to say to yourself OK I made a mistake to put it right I will just help him?

Take care crip. You may wanna check out the emotional needs forum too, there's some good stuff in there. Twyla in particular is very, very helpful.

Ben.

<small>[ August 05, 2002, 06:59 AM: Message edited by: The Running Man ]</small>

Thanks Ben
You seem like a very good H and seem to understand your wife well. Although My H has been brilliant the past few weeks we have struggled for a while before that which i found made me resent him. i know that i said some nasty things to him and at times have just wanted to get away from the whole situation but logically i am really unable to do that as i have the responsibilities of being a mum. Also financially at the moment it would really be too hard. The other thing is that i dont know how i realy feel i am quite up and down. I am scared of hurting my H any more than i already have.

I feel that i have worked hard over the weeks to reassure him but he has accussed me of seeing the OM and also of having an affair with his friend. He has snooped through my stuff. Wants to talk a lot of the time. I think that i have done ok but i dont think it is enough and i have no more to give. I just want peace. I wish that i had someone who loved me that i could take off to for a while but that is not possible. I feel trapped into making decisions about my future that i am not ready to make. I find that it is all very hard to cope withespecially as my H has clear ideas as to what his EN are and wants me to work on them but i just dont have the capacity to do ut. It doesnt make sense to me. Either you are happy with your partner or you are not and all the presciptiveness makes me want to run a mile. why cant he just be happy that i am here and that i am getting through my issues. what does he want from me. Something that i canot give. If i had no children to worry about i think that i would have taken off a few weeks ago because i dont think that i can be what he wants me to be and i am so tired of all this.I think that it would ultimately be kinder on him too.
Crip

Crip, this will be my last for today so I hope it's of help.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by crip:
<strong>You seem like a very good H and seem to understand your wife well.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not really, just that I love her and want us happy. Sometimes she wants that, sometimes she doesn't.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Although My H has been brilliant the past few weeks we have struggled for a while before that which i found made me resent him. i know that i said some nasty things to him and at times have just wanted to get away from the whole situation but logically i am really unable to do that as i have the responsibilities of being a mum.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK so I read this that he hasn't been helpful and good before but is now doing good? Is that right? We all say nasty things that we don't mean. It's important to not LB for this very reason.

So if now he is been brilliant are you responding?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Also financially at the moment it would really be too hard.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have you explored this? Perhaps you could find a way of getting away without so to speak. My wife and I explored living together separately for awhile in different rooms (with the caveat of husband and wife though).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>The other thing is that i dont know how i realy feel i am quite up and down.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In which case it is probably best to stay as you are. It would be dreadful to move on and then realize that he was the one for you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I am scared of hurting my H any more than i already have.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My wife says that to me a lot. The reality is she cannot hurt me anymore. Sounds like you need him but won't let him in. Is there something holding that back perhaps? Guilt? Truth with him? etc.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I feel that i have worked hard over the weeks to reassure him but he has accussed me of seeing the OM and also of having an affair with his friend.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well he is in pain, and that takes time to heal. It should get to a point where he is over it and doesn't bring it up as much. If he does then you can know that he is getting thru his recovery. But it will take longer if you are unable or wont help. My wife helps in her way and that is far better than me working alone.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>He has snooped through my stuff.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bin there dun that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> We all do that as part of rebuilding our trust. My W lied alot, it takes awhile to believe she is telling the truth.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Wants to talk a lot of the time.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes we typically have lots of questions, talking helps get through )as my sig. says <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) but with abuse if you find it hard you must learn to call a time-out. My W has to do that all the time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I think that i have done ok but i dont think it is enough and i have no more to give.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why do you not think it is enough? Has he said so? I think that your own own mind is saying that rather than him. I say this because my W says "I'm done - can do no more". What she really means when she's calmed is that she's exhausted and it's too much right now. She needs a hug and some support and some time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I just want peace. I wish that i had someone who loved me that i could take off to for a while but that is not possible.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No family or friends nearby? Can he go for awhile? Personally I don't think this is a good idea, it would probably destroy W and I.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I feel trapped into making decisions about my future that i am not ready to make.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then don't make them. Most of us here would support you in saying don't make any major future decisions particularly if you are up and down.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Either you are happy with your partner or you are not and all the presciptiveness makes me want to run a mile. why cant he just be happy that i am here and that i am getting through my issues.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well it's not as clear there though. You have hurt him having an A. He needs time to get thru that, he needs your support in getting thru that. I could also turn that around for you and say why aren't you happy that he is there and working thru his issues for you?

The Harley techniques are very much about us understanding how to survive an affair so that we may have a better marriage at the end of it. Sadly you have the abuse issues also. May be you can let go of the A and forgive yourself and focus on the abuse?

This reply will also act as a bump and hopefully some of the far more knowledgable MB'ers will also help you out.

Ben.
p.s. there's several questions in my thread above you didn't answer. Would be helpful to get a proper picture.

<small>[ August 05, 2002, 08:51 AM: Message edited by: The Running Man ]</small>

HI BEN
thanks for the reply. I dont know which questions you meant me to answer.can you clarify and i will do my best.

I have to be a bit careful because i dont want to feel manipulated by MB doctrine if that makes sense.

i am interestested to konw as well if you have any children involved in your M and how they are coping with your wifes problems. is she coping with them if you have any. is she having counselling. does she find it helps at all. I sshe often withdrawn from you. Do you see her withrawal if she does as a personal thing.

I hpe you dont mind me asking but it is so good to talk to someone who seems to be in the same boat as me. Has she used MBs. Is she over the affair. Oh god it is loke forty questions. I hope that you can answer.

I can see that you live in the states. i am in england. how do you feel about your recovery are you doing ok do you think.

thanks Crip

Well crip I cant answer for her!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by crip:
<strong>I have to be a bit careful because i dont want to feel manipulated by MB doctrine if that makes sense.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No sure.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>i am interestested to konw as well if you have any children involved in your M and how they are coping with your wifes problems.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes we have. She si coping with them well really. They know something is wrong as she is so low a lot of the time and so tearful but on the whole she is pretty good. We dont have a very supportive family the distance is too great. She has an aunt she gets away to and leaves me to it. I am prooud of this side of her and keep saying so.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>is she having counselling. does she find it helps at all.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes she's having private counselling, costs a lot and has read a lot of books. We do some activities if her IC or books suggest it. Sorta like homework but very grim.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I sshe often withdrawn from you. Do you see her withrawal if she does as a personal thing.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes I see it as a personal thing because she had an A which is hard. I no longer bring up the A unless I really have to or she does or her IC recommends we talk about it in relation to the abuse. It is never easy though.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Has she used MBs. Is she over the affair.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She has read SAA and HNHN, but she doesn't come here (that I know of). She is not really working on us hence my needs are not really being met which as I said above is hard.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>how do you feel about your recovery are you doing ok do you think.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well that's a loaded question <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> truth is I do not know. I love my W very much, but I do not know if she will allow us to last. So I am getting better as a person, but my W doesn't see it. She sees her abuse and that's it. She sees my pain and blames herself (which of course she did create) but I hope each day that she will wake up and say OK Hun, I am sorry, I am gonna be with you and please work it thru with me, please just wait and be patient...

I don't get it yet and don't get much in terms of comittment. So right now our recovery is slow, my recovery is good but it may be that the woman who gets all this personal growth benefit is not my W.

My questions bought you were about your H. Is he getting IC? Does he use MB? Is he supporting your abuse recovery? Have you asked him to support you in specific ways? etc.

Biggest change for me to help my W was when she sat down and said Ben please do this for me... (she'd discussed her preferences with her IC). You might be able to ease your stress and your H's by setting some ground rules for your recovery but you need to calmly state them. I was blundering around in the dark for sooo long.

My shift is done now Crip so please other MB'ers help the lady out <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Ben.

hi ben.

you off work now.well thanks for chatting i hope to see you soon.
My H is getting IC but he doesnt talk about it to me. He says that i do not talk but i try to tell him everything unless it is something that i know i am feeling and that will pass.

Ny H used MB and found it useful but i think he found my reaction to the posta difficult and so stopped using it.

He reads plenty too and i hope it helps him.

thanks for helping me through this day it has been great on MB and i have found it really interesting to talk to you.I wish you all the best for your recovery and your wifes. Unlike you r wife i dont havew any supportive family. the one friend i have who i can talk to also talks to my H so it makes it difficult to chat openly with her especially as she has been through a divorce recently and it stirs up feelings for her. But in the abuse stuff she is good.

I wish in a way that i could just run away from it all because it gets too much but i have no where to go to.And my H would panic and be so hurt i suppose. But i wonder if sometimes it would be better just to go and let him have some space too.

any way thanks a lot. maybe i should have been called the running woman HA ha

Crip

Damn I was going out the door. If I miss my wakeboarding bcos of you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by crip:
<strong>My H is getting IC but he doesnt talk about it to me.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you want him to though?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>He says that i do not talk but i try to tell him everything unless it is something that i know i am feeling and that will pass.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah yes that one. My W had to get to a point where she would say to me "I'm OK - it's not you, it will pass" so that I felt secure and reassured. I then gave her her space. Perhaps you could try that?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>the one friend i have who i can talk to also talks to my H so it makes it difficult to chat openly with her especially as she has been through a divorce recently and it stirs up feelings for her. But in the abuse stuff she is good.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well that's good for you. How about asking your H to not talk to her so that you can be open and honest - if that's all you have then he'd understand?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I wish in a way that i could just run away from it all because it gets too much but i have no where to go to.And my H would panic and be so hurt i suppose. But i wonder if sometimes it would be better just to go and let him have some space too.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But I feel if my W was to run her abuse just runs with her, and then she has no support at all so I doubt it would work that way. How about trying to get space within the home? Separate rooms, don't do stuff together for a period of time etc etc. Would that work? You're not clear in what your askin' for so I doubt your H knows either.

Now I really am gone. Other MB'ers please add to this thread.

L8R Ben.