Well my H.’s online woman called the house today and I answered the phone. I asked who was calling, she said her name, I said Who? She said it again. I handed the phone to him and said “Its Kit” The phone call lasted 20 seconds. He pretty much told her he could not talk. I also noticed that when he has been online, he has been in anonymous mode so no one knows he is there. He is actively avoiding her. He immediately apologized for the call. I asked if he was adhering to our agreement of no phone calls. He noted that he didn’t call her, and that she was calling because he had been avoiding her. I stayed calm and said I have been very clear about how I feel this is affecting our relationship. I asked if he told her yet that he will not be calling anymore and that she should also not call. He said he hadn’t, I asked if he planned to. He said yes. We both remained calm. He asked what I was thinking. I said that I have been clear about how I feel about his relationship with her. He then asked if I would talk to him more about it and we went into another room to do so. I spoke of MB strategies and thanked him for being honest. I gave my side of the issue and explained how dangerous to our marriage I felt his behavior was. Then came a big revelation. My H. finally admitted he was getting something from OW that I was not giving him. Fantasy sex. It in fact became clear that he doesn’t even want real sex from her, he just wants her to play a role in his fantasy sex world. Now, this is an online relationship that represents what my husband calls pure fantasy. Does he want to leave her for me? No. Does he think he would be happy with her? No. Does he understand I cannot deal with him having this kind of relationship with another person. He knew this woman online when he met me, I pointed out that when he had a choice between the two of us, he picked me and we developed our relationship and are now married. I asked if he regretted his choice and wished he had pursued her. He said no. He said even now if she were free, he would still choose me. I continued to listen, and he finally has begun to admit to himself how inappropriate it is. Previously he noted that he knew he was being selfish but refused to change. Today is the first time that he seemed to see that it cannot continue as it has been because it is destroying the good things that we do have.

Here is the emotional need that we discussed as her fulfilling that I was not. It relates to sex. Can she pretend to be a dark skinned dark haired fantasy woman that fulfills his every need over the net or on the phone? Yes. He feels that this is his problem, but I explained that he was not alone in this, that I am here to help generate a solution. He feels it is his sexual quirk and not my problem. I was calm throughout the conversation and was effective at persuading him that it was our problem. If we really want this marriage to work, we need to deal with his need for fantasy sex. Because it hurts me too much for him to continue this type of relationship. He again apologized for that but said he didn’t know what do to. He said that he feels like he cannot say the same things to me, that it is easier with someone he doesn’t know. That he doesn’t want to necessarily physically implement these thing, he just likes the fantasy part. I explained that if we need to put a phone sex allocation in our budget then we could. I would prefer he use a professional with my knowledge than for him to make a secret second life and an emotional connection with some woman on the web just so he can get it for free. In an effort to brainstorm possible solutions, I suggested that I would be willing to provide verbal fantasy sex. He said he felt like he might not be able to do this, I said did he think it was because we were face to face? He though maybe that was it. You see, while my h. appears to enjoy this, the entire desire embarrasses him and he is ashamed. Before we were married, and we lived apart, we had previous done phone sex, so its not like I am unaware that some people like it. It was a replacement for the real thing but it is much easier to describe a perfect scenerio than to actually implement it. I mean barring all physical boundaries, I am certain I can be as enticing if not more so than this internet woman who he now uses for this.

Now I need to do research on how to deal with this desire. Does anyone have any suggestions? I plan on doing some research and look into sex therapy for us. My husband and I have had good sex but he feels it is boring because of our own physical limitations, and I understand that. Fantasy is fantasy, you don’t have to worry about smells and physical prowness. We have already begun to work on enhancing our physical sex lives but given the nature of his preference, I feel that in order to rid his need of OW, I need to be able to provide what she is providing.

Today I feel hope because he is starting to be more honest about the real problem and we were able to discuss it in a non love busting way.

Luci,

WOW, that's about all I can say. WOW. For you to remain calm the way you did and to offer to get him help(professioanlly), again WOW. I have no advice and have not gone through this, but I don't believe you could have handled the situation any better than you did.

I hope "your Plan" & "ideas" will work out for you and your H.

Please, please keep us updated on this.

wwl

Hello Luci,

Based on info in your post, this is my understanding of the situation...

1) Your H would not be comfortable with you fulfilling this need for fantasy because--well, it's you. I'm guessing it's because he wouldn't be able to look at you over the breakfast table because of embarassment, etc.

2) You are willing to fulfill H's need for fantasy in a way that does not infringe on your M--even if that means hiring a professional.

Could this possibly work???

1) Tell your H that you have found someone who can fulfill his need for fantasy--someone you approve of because you are confident that this *new* person will not infringe on your M.

2) YOU be that person (without him knowing it's you). It would only require the cost of another computer and internet service--much cheaper than hiring a professional (who he could get emotionally attached to anyway).

What do you think? I would love to hear the solution that you and your H find--and I'm sure you will eventually find one because you are both communicating needs and have a desire to fulfill them using POJA.

YetAgain

In response to your questions. My husband said that he would be willing to try for me to fulfill this fantasy need by having me fill the role of the fantasy. He feels ashamed because he wants this at all and that is why he has such a hard time talking about it. He feels there is something wrong with him to want this and so therein lies the shame. I dont think its wrong to fantasize, I think its wrong to share the fantasy with another that is not me without giving me, his wife, the chance to fulfill the need. He agrees but isnt sure how to resolve it so now we are trying to brainstorm solutions. Right now, its unclear if I cannot do it. I think I can but he has to admit what he needs before I can fulfill it.

As to the second point where I mentioned the phone sex line professionals, that was just an off the cuff suggestion. He did not like that idea, it made him uncomfortable. I explained why it was better than the online woman thing and he said he totally understood. Now he feels more uncomfortable about the online woman being an acceptible solution. Those two realizations on his part were worth my bringing up the suggestion. I also noted that we did not have to try any of these options until we are both in agreement and are comfortable with it. POJA.

I liked your idea about me pretending to be someone else via internet. That may be something that could work. However, I would still want him to know it was me. I want to maintain the honesty of our discussion though and if I dont let him know I am her, then that might not work. But we could set it up, let him know its me in fantasy mode, so when he is getting email from that part of me, it is all fantasy and no real life issues will be mentioned. I may be able to make it work that way.

It has taken quite a bit to get him to talk about this at all.. He seems very afraid I will just say You freak! and leave him.

In the past we have written love stories for each other. I think I could satisfy this need by writing stories for him again. I wrote a poem for him last week and he was really touched by it. I guess its easy to forget that men sometimes like those romantic touches even if they do not always mention it.

Keep the suggestions coming!

I think we have identified a sexual identity issue that my H. has. Its not that he isnt attracted to me, its just easier to be all that when you really do not have the physical encounter. Its easier for him to be all that too. I think it is all connected to his self esteem, and sexually hes not the powerhouse he wants to be so he uses fantasy to help him be the image he wants.

I am trying to convince him that he doesnt have to be a powerhouse all the time, that I love him with all his flaws. But if he isnt happy with a flaw, that I will work with him on it so he can be. I think this will help deal with this issue and resolve it so his sexual fulfillment can be more reality based and less fantasy escapism because of disatifaction with himself. I think this will reduce his need to look for escape somewhere else and not with me.

Luci

Luci,

I hear the frustration and confusion you're feeling. Your H is very lucky to have such a caring, understanding W.

EC

<small>[ August 19, 2002, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: Extremely_confused ]</small>

This is my own extremely biased opinion, but similar to the position of Dr. Archibald Hart, author of "The Sexual Male" (a book worth reading for both you and your H, though you may draw slightly different conclusions than I)

Sex actually has a purpose in marriage other than pleasure and procreation: to promote emotional intimacy. Much phone, sex, on-line sex, pornography and fantasy sex is a way to have sex WITHOUT emotional intimacy. So, tread carefully in fulfilling his fantasies. It can be a great way for you to show him you accept him completely, for you and he to share a special time together, and for you to gain some insight into your husband's psyche. OR, it can be a way for him to avoid being TRULY intimate with you. You and he have to be the judge of which it is or becomes.

Luci: Maybe it would help if you thought of some of your sexual fantasies and shared them with your husband. We all have them. I'm sure there are women who can get aroused by seeing lesbian pictures or three-some pictures, but that doesn't mean they want to try it. Just an example, nothing personal. In any event, maybe if you offered the fact that we all have sexual fantasies and share some of your own with him it might help him to feel more comfortable with his own.

As for you filling his, I think that is the best way to handle it. You could do it via internet, or by phone (cel phone perhaps). Also, if he fantasises about a blonde or brunette, get a wig and do a little dirty talk and teasing. See if that works.

Also, discuss some fantasies that you each have that you would want to act out together. This will liven up your physical sex life as well. You'd be amazed at how much you can begin to open up together just from trying some simple things (spanking, vibrator, etc.) I don't mean to be so explicit, but it's true. After we began rebuilding my DH and I began to experiment and it was amazing.

I hope this helps. Good luck to you and take care.

P.S. You could also send him some fun e-cards. I've done that, you can search for adult cards. Here is a site for one if you are interested.

http://www.kinkycards.com/

It could add a little pizazz in his fantasy land, but from you.

Good luck.

Congratulations to your courage. I beleive you should try to use the phone (physical distance) & give him a surprise demo of how you would handle his fantasy. call him on his mobile when he is on his lunchbreak or something - surely that will knock him off his socks and he will beleive you. first time around you might have to take the lead. that all - of course - provided that you feel comfortable doing. do you know what his fantasies are about? good luck.

Just wanted to comment and say thanks for all the ideas.

First I wanted to comment on the sex without intimacy issue.. this is a definate problem that my husband has. I am the most significant relationship he has ever had in his life. Most of his relationships barring his first girlfriend were all one night stand type situations or unemotional internet relationships. He has in the past used this as a coping skill to deal with stress. When I was ill, and he thought I was dieing he began to detach from me, in order to cope because he was so upset at the thought each day. This detachment allowed him to start this affair. The last thing I want to do is increase that chance. I do not want these fantasies to replace our normal lovemaking but rather provide a once in a while distraction from the status quo.

My big issue is my husband thinks I am so cute, sweet and loving that it is inconsistent with what he views as sexy. I am trying to get him to better define it but beyond showing him pictures of women in magazines who have "it" and who doesn't, I don't know his preferences. I had met the OW online once and I didn't like her because she was so loose.. with everyone. I mean every comment was about groping others, sexual innuendos etc. I do flirt sexually with my husband but I won't do it online or with others because thats not who I am.

I have asked if he wants me to talk dirty to him. He is not sure, but he does get a big kick if I use any other term other than penis. During our honeymoon/romance phase, he was always very romantic gentlemanly about his overtures with only once in awhile explicit sexual innuendos, and then in very flowery terms. If his fantasies have changed drastically, then I am not sure. He currently has homework (for lack of a better word) to try to convey to me the types of things he wants. He has such a hard time talking about it so he suggested that he would put together the types of videos/clips/pics that might help me understand what he means. Its odd because when our relationship began he was much more open about his preferences and now he seems so much more shy.

He is also currently on antidepressants and is really anxious about how much that has reduced his sex drive. He laments that he doesn't even like to look at porn anymore and he thinks this is really abnormal since it is something he has always done.

I found a good website that had explicit directions on how to stimulate a man orally. It is from sexproject.com. Its not for those who are easily embarassed, but I found it to be quite helpful and we have been practicing that since I never really had any confidence with oral stimulation. Of course he is thrilled by this and was happy I was willing to try new things.

One of my H. big fantasies is for a brunette, I am more blonde than brunette but am willing to dye my hair and see how it goes. I've never minded changing my looks in that way. We are also exercising together and he feels really good about that.

We have also discussed about how sex was dealt with in his home as a child. Essentially, it was bad, you shouldn't do it, and you certainly do not talk about it; thus it led to his coverup behavior. I told him that this is our home now and we make the rules. I don't think occassional use of porn is offensive. Obsessive use is. So I have asked him to be more open about his use so we could determine which end of the spectrum his behavior is on.

One thing he has said is he wants me to be more aggressive. I asked him to be more specific. He couldn't be. I then said well aggressive to me means some sort of dominatrix scenerio, Is that what he meant. He said No, not that. I think he means he wants me to be more assertive and initiate more often. I have made efforts to do that. I was in an abusive marriage before this one where I was forced to have sex when I didn't want to so its hard for me to initiate unless I am sure he wants to. I think it is this "tentative" "making sure he is interested" behavior on my part that makes me seem less assertive. I always emphasize it is okay to say no without repercussions and maybe that kills the spontenaity for him.

I have also started reading about erotic massage. Since his libido is reduced he gets all stressed when he feels he should be aroused and hes not. I emphasize that we are touching and being intimate not necessarily for the sole goal of sex but just to express love and be close (this is also a good way to reduce his ability to detach from me and has been suggested by some as a therapy for dealing with men who have detached too much of their emotions from sex).

All the ideas so far have been very helpful. Thank you all for contributing to such a sensitive topic.

Luci

Luci: First I want to thank you for starting this thread. It made me think about one of my husbands fantasies (physical), and well I was overwhelmed to make it happen last night. I did! He was very aroused and shocked by it. It was fun, just giving him that pleasure. Thanks for giving me that little extra push, even though you didn't know you were.

Ok, as for the initiating more. I understand what you mean. I can relate and what you said about it not being talked about etc. in your husbands background I think may have contributed to my lack of initiation. Try it slowly and sort of insinuative at first. Take it one step at a time and eventually you will become to feel it more naturally. Exploring and trying new things can be a lot of fun and you'd be amazed at what you might enjoy. Don't get me wrong, I'm not into bondage or REAL kinky stuff, but I have become a lot more open to ideas over the past year.

I wish you and your husband well. It says a lot for a spouse to be so willing and open to new suggestions in an effort to bring more life into the intimacy and sexual side of their relationship. You are doing well, and I wish you the best.