Had my "last" session with my private IC on Friday.

Some good stuff from him, but a lot of nonsense too. I got the feeling that he wanted to end our sessions since I started Cing with Steve the day before.

He read my returning home in a panic last weekend as me just plain loving my W too much to ever want a DV. Well, I don't want a DV, but I DON'T want to put up with her "friendship" with Rat Meat either. And more, actually. IC seems to think, and suggested, that I should try to shift my paradigm of right and wrong. That, so what if my W has another A with Rat Meat, or some other [censored]? She's 47, where's she going to go? So he doesn't think she'd leave me and that I should just enjoy what percentage of her affection she'll give while she cakewalks for the rest of my life? No thanks. Ol' 2long don't play that.

ouch! Over the years I have run across this type of thinking in some counselors and learned to screen them out in subsequent years. I can't relate to someone who has no standard of right and wrong so I won't waste my time with them. I also can't relate to someone who lowers the standard to accomodate my shortcomings, rather than helping me change myself to accomodate the standard. That seems to be a prevalent mindset amongst some counselors. I think you are right to stick with Steve, he is much closer to your world view and likely better able to help.

Just out of curiosity ... did you ask how many times the IC had been married? .... ?

Homey don't play that.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Good riddance! What a schmuck! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Get rid of the IC, and work with Steve. The Harleys have a good plan, but realize if your spouse gives you the back shoulder, it is going to be tough. Steve really has some good plans, I would of liked to instill the plans in our marriage, but my WH didn't want anything to do with following Steves plan. So now we are divorcing, and WH is enjoying his freedom and who knows what else.

Hate to say this, but my WH, who was on these boards for over a year, said he enjoyed these boards at the time, loved to phylosophy with everyone, and now he calls the MB boards a cult, and has meddled with our kids minds and said it is a cult to them too. See how the wayward spouse, doesn't get what they want, and turn things around. This is so cruel for a person of this intelligence to say such a cruel thing about a wonderful marriage counseling program. But of course MB didn't want to follow SNL's plans (WH) so he has to demean it to make him feel better.

Read all the books, and do a good Plan A, no LB, and if have to do a Plan B. Also, make sure you have all the entity to cellphones, phones, computer etc. That is where I wished I had taken action sooner, I can't believe 2 people could be so cruel to their spouses, and family.

2Long,

Been wonderin' about ya! As for that IC, well how much of his advice is he willing to take for himself? Let's see if he is willing to settle for whatever you feel like paying him!!! LOL! This guy shouldn't have a license if he is going to dish out junk like that.

Harley's would be a better choice. I have seen where they give good guidance and support. Food for thought not junk thinking food either.

The Harley's do not recommend save the M at all cost. Life is precious and should not be wasted on those who are not respectful of their mates.

take care,
L.

2long-im calling steve in 45 min. a little nervous,but know i am doing the right thing for me. i need a better plan or more guidence. hope all is well and i agree with the others-schmuck!!

Melodylane:

"I can't relate to someone who has no standard of right and wrong so I won't waste my time with them."

My problem, and the reason I stuck with this guy for so long, is that I always seem to want to give people the benefit of the doubt, even when they probably don't deserve it. I tend to wait 2long and find out 2late that I'm not doing MYSELF any good by trying to "educate" these people. I really thought I had made some headway with this guy over the "measured honesty" crap, but clearly he just put that aside for my benefit.

"I also can't relate to someone who lowers the standard to accomodate my shortcomings, rather than helping me change myself to accomodate the standard."

This is interesting, and maybe even more insidious, because I wouldn't have been aware of it if it was happening. Don't think it was, in the case of this IC, though. I think my standards are in far better shape than his.

"I think you are right to stick with Steve, he is much closer to your world view and likely better able to help."

I agree.

Pepkins:

"Just out of curiosity ... did you ask how many times the IC had been married? .... ?"

Boy, I sure wish I HAD asked that!

Something else he asked me, along the lines of what I posted above, is "have you thought about the famous people with philandering spouses that put up with that behavior?" I think I said, "sure, I'm aware of them, but I sure don't want to live that way."

He kept pressing, and I kept fencing.

SC:

"Good riddance! What a schmuck!"

YEP! Just another turd in the cesspool.

cry2much:

"The Harleys have a good plan, but realize if your spouse gives you the back shoulder, it is going to be tough."

I am trying to hunker down for this possibility. Interestingly, my W has asked me about 3 times over the weekend about my session with him. I have to fill out the LBQ as if I were her, then read what I wrote to her, get her feedback and take notes, then send it to him. First time she asked, I simply said I like him. Second time she asked I said he gave me a homework assignment. Third time, I told her it was to fill out a questionaire as if I were her, get her feedback and send that to him. I won't tell her the nature of the questionaire until I fill it out and read it to her, so she doesn't give me any ideas beforehand. When she asked the third time, we were laying on the grass in our backyard, looking up at the scaffolding around the house and watching escaped party baloons drifting far overhead. It waas a beautiful day. I added, in a non-LBing way "considering how easy it's been for us to misunderstand each other lately, the results of this questionaire should be interesting." She agreed. A bit later she reached over and tickled me. Hasn't done that in years. Then she said "how does life ever get this crazy?" So, she's thinking a bit.

"See how the wayward spouse, doesn't get what they want, and turn things around. This is so cruel for a person of this intelligence to say such a cruel thing about a wonderful marriage counseling program. But of course MB didn't want to follow SNL's plans (WH) so he has to demean it to make him feel better."

My W demeans people to make herself feel better, in addition to MB. I remember reading posts from SNL. Not much, though. I sure wish you all the best. I think that the prozac has kicked in for me, and so I find I'm not so anxious about the possible outcomes of our situation. Would like this all to be over, though.

"Read all the books, and do a good Plan A, no LB, and if have to do a Plan B."

Since I moved back home, I think I've done good not to LB. And SH advised me to drop NC for now, so I haven't mentioned it or Rat Meat once.

"Also, make sure you have all the entity to cellphones, phones, computer etc."

I have none of that. I could hack her computer and read deleted files or temporary files from when her computer crashes, but I can't access her hotmail account. But until she tells me (and shows me) that contact has stopped, I will simply assume that it's in full swing. I won't be surprised again, thinking that we're doing better and find through some bombshell that we're not.

"That is where I wished I had taken action sooner, I can't believe 2 people could be so cruel to their spouses, and family."

Neither can I. But they certainly can, and are.

Orchid:

"As for that IC, well how much of his advice is he willing to take for himself?"

Wish I'd asked him if his W is having an A.

"Harley's would be a better choice. I have seen where they give good guidance and support. Food for thought not junk thinking food either."

I was worried about the cost, initially. But even the introductory session with Steve was more productive than the best session I had with that IC.

"The Harley's do not recommend save the M at all cost. Life is precious and should not be wasted on those who are not respectful of their mates."

I agree with this, wholeheartedly. I think I have something to offer a committed M. If I can't rebuild one with my W, I don't want to spend the rest of my life resenting the choices I make now. I'd rather start fresh with someone that believes in M and sharing themselves 100% with me.

nikko:

"2long-im calling steve in 45 min. a little nervous,but know i am doing the right thing for me. i need a better plan or more guidence. hope all is well and i agree with the others-schmuck!!"

You must have already had your session by now. How did it go? I was nervous as well, but it went very well, and Steve really put me at ease.

Crap!

My W got an email from a former coworker last week that asks, among other things, when she'll be in town so that he can buy her dinner. My W isn't interested in this guy, or so she says, but she has told me that he is interested in her. He's M'd, his W lives back east, and he's a philanderer and his W knows it.

My W simply said she was in town most of the time these days. Didn't say yes or no (but obvsiously implied yes).

To me, this is one of those clear boundaries that one simply does not cross. It would be one thing if he were inviting her and several friends, but he's probably inviting only her. It might be another thing if he wasn't interested in her, but even then he shouldn't be buying her dinner alone.

My W got this message last week, and I just saw her reply in the "sent mail" folder. I wish she had told me about it, though.

Should I ask her about this? Ask to talk about boundaries?

2L;
My previous advice still holds. You must stop M&R talks...she is going to do what she is going to do and there is precious little you can do about it. Becoming the police with her won't help, you can't possibly find out about and intercept every call/message/email and you'd drive yourself nuts trying to (like I did for a while).

Let her do what she feels she has to do; you cannot change her morals/ethics, her respect for you unless you let go of her. When you are able to let go, perhaps then she will begin to see all of this that you want to teach her, not before. It just will not happen, and all you'll get is more resentment, more alienation, and $LB withdrawls.

Let her go, 2L, let her go...I know it;'s not easy, I can barely do it, but we must.

2long,
While what the IC is saying is wrong from a moral standpoint, I think I might see what he is suggesting. He is under the impression that you will do ANYTHING in order to have your marriage and keep your wife. You have bent over backwards and ate a lot of crap in order to still be where you are. Even after an attempt to remove yourself from the "emotionally abusive" marriage, you returned with hat in hand (so to speak). In so many ways it resembles the "physically abusive" relationships that women return to again and again.
His point is.....you CANNOT change your wife. She has chosen and continues to choose to have that OM in her life, irregardless of how it hurts you. She has had him in her life for years and years. The IC cannot MAKE her give him up nor can you. If you are so determined to stay in this marriage then you might have to resolve yourself to the fact that you will have to share her. NOTHING he says or you do will convince her that she must sever contact with this OM. It is evident by her behavior. For some people there are no magic words, they have no epiphanys, they have no near death experiences to make them see the light. They continue to walk around in the dark and take the ones that love them down that same path. Your IC is telling you just that....she is 47 years old (certainly old enough to know better) and she is going to do what SHE wants to do. You are in a position to either accept it or remove yourself. When you attempted to remove yourself it backfired on you and she gained alot of ground. YOU were distraught (not her)and you returned home (she did not come running to you). She knows exactly where she rates, that you love and want her, and that YOU are willing to do ANYTHING to keep her. She might even think that you would and should be willing to share her. After all, she is there and has not moved out to be with that OM. So in a very convoluted way, she has "chosen" you to a certain degree. She is just the one deciding how much and to what degree you have her.

I think that your IC is pointing that out. ANYTHING is just that......ANYTHING.

A well worn phrase from the south sums it all up...... "You either have to fish or cut bait." (In other words, You HAVE to so something, you can't just sit there.)

Yes, I realize that I am only a junior member and not as knowledgable on these MB principles as you and others. All I have to offer is MHO

SC:

I knew this was the right answer when I asked the question. And, with the prozac, I really am not fretting as much as I was just 2 weeks ago about this kind of crap.

As for letting go, the prozac is helping in that regard, and my W is noticing. She commented that "you seem much more at ease lately" and I replied with something like "I feel more at ease." I don't want her to get ANY ideas directly from me as to how I'm really feeling regarding letting go. I can and am willing to let go. The longer this goes on without any effort on her part, the less it'll matter to me one way or the other what we end up doing.

This is the most I've posted since I moved back into the rental house. I haven't taken my computer home, except this weekend (and I only turned it on once last night). I'm thinking more about doing things for myself and my son, and even a few things for my W, and less about posting. I'm also watching and waiting, patiently as possible, for signs that my W may be coming "back" to me and our family. They're very few and far between, though. Keeping my plan A going, too. It's easier now than it was at the beginning, because I've developed habits of doing things like walking into the kitchen and simply cleaning up whatever's there. Gives me time to think. Stupid comments still come forth, like this morning's "I will do the laundry and fold the clothes, but I'm tired of bringing them upstairs and putting them into the drawers for people. I've had it." I ignore those. They're stupid because all the while I'm doing something else, many times for HER, and not getting credit for it. Actually, I've gotten some "thank yous" recently for stuff I've done for her, even mixed amongst the "I'm tired of doing everything" remarks. At least none of those phase me right now. Ah, drugs... Wish I could drink a good beer from time to time, though!

What you say is correct, Committed, but there is an important distinction to be made.

If the message is "this is your wife, you can't change her, you can try to accept her as she is", then he's doing it because he doesn't know any better, or more likely, he doesn't know what could be done about it.

But if that is the message, then it should at least be followed up with "If your feelings do not allow you to accept her as she is, then you need to move on" and proceed to start working on how to get his patient to be able to do that.

Not just dump him like that, making an incomplete, if not immoral, statement.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>SC:

I knew this was the right answer when I asked the question. And, with the prozac, I really am not fretting as much as I was just 2 weeks ago about this kind of crap.

As for letting go, the prozac is helping in that regard, and my W is noticing. She commented that "you seem much more at ease lately" and I replied with something like "I feel more at ease." I don't want her to get ANY ideas directly from me as to how I'm really feeling regarding letting go. I can and am willing to let go. The longer this goes on without any effort on her part, the less it'll matter to me one way or the other what we end up doing.

This is the most I've posted since I moved back into the rental house. I haven't taken my computer home, except this weekend (and I only turned it on once last night). I'm thinking more about doing things for myself and my son, and even a few things for my W, and less about posting. I'm also watching and waiting, patiently as possible, for signs that my W may be coming "back" to me and our family. They're very few and far between, though. Keeping my plan A going, too. It's easier now than it was at the beginning, because I've developed habits of doing things like walking into the kitchen and simply cleaning up whatever's there. Gives me time to think. Stupid comments still come forth, like this morning's "I will do the laundry and fold the clothes, but I'm tired of bringing them upstairs and putting them into the drawers for people. I've had it." I ignore those. They're stupid because all the while I'm doing something else, many times for HER, and not getting credit for it. Actually, I've gotten some "thank yous" recently for stuff I've done for her, even mixed amongst the "I'm tired of doing everything" remarks. At least none of those phase me right now. Ah, drugs... Wish I could drink a good beer from time to time, though!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is the right thing to do 2L; live on, Plan A, ignore the provocations and snide remarks as best you can, and show her you can move on, not depend on her, don't need her.

In time, you'll be ready to make the right move for you. If by then she's de-fogging, great! If not, it's OK too; you'll have 2 further chances to "shock" her into thinking: Plan B, and filing for D. If by then she's ready, she may respond, if not, then you can move on with a clear conscience that you did all you could, and you will be at a place where it'll be OK, perhaps much better for you.

Look at me; much as I love her and hurt because of all that's happened, I am looking at Plan B before the week is out. Tomorrow's session w/Steve will determine that. If she attends and somehow responds, great! If not....shock # 1..., and so on...scary? yes! Necessary? absolutely!

C&LI:

Your points are well taken. I think there's some truth to what you say about what my IC may have been telling me, in his own "special" way. I believe that I did give him the impression that I would do "anything" to keep my W, and at the time, I probably felt that way. No... Actually, I didn't. I don't now, especially. I moved out rather hastily, without preparing properly for plan B. And since I was so obsessed with my M (and posting about it), I wound up getting too little sleep and fretting too much about what SHE was doing to be able to do an effective plan B at that point.

Now? Well, I've calmed down considerably. That experience, AND her reaction to me coming home taught me a LOT about our M. It's pretty darn broken right now, and she is still insistent that our situation is so unique that finding the solution can be entirely up to her (justifying suspending her own Cing).

And, in the end, it IS up to her what she does with her future. If she wants OM in the wings, she'll HAVE him, no matter what I say or do. BUT, I will not put up with it indefinitely. I can't. It would tear me apart morally.

Also, her behavior around her family while she's in this denial mode won't be able to hold up forever anymore either. If I leave (and I still might), I'll have removed her most important blame-shifting target. She'll still have her other family, but they're all aware of what's going on, and won't put up with it themselves, for long.

I still think it's going to take a while for this world view of hers to start to collapse, but I'm pretty sure it will, eventually. Hopefully, for the sake of our family and our M, I'll still care at that point. Right now, I'm not sure I will.