I went to my 35th (gawd !) highschool reunion this past weekend .... I was hit on by a former classmate while my H was standing right next to me!!! And, I had already introduced him as "MY husband". Go figure! (let's just say there was alcohol involved)

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Pepper:

My class didn't have a 30th reunion last year, apparently. We had a 10th, a 20th, and a 25th (?). No 30th.

I like going to those to catch up on old friends. There are about 6 of us that see each other only at those reunions. I never get hit on, though <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I did get an anonymous email from "an admirer" via classmates.com about a year ago. Who knows, maybe if it had come after D-day, I wouldn't have simply deleted it, but tried to find out who it was? ...nah!! I don't ever want to do what's been done to me.

So, 2long,
I see you posting lots of places, but not on your own thread. You seem to be holding up pretty good but I wonder. Are you really doing OK? Or are you just putting up a false front to make Spacecase feel bad?

SS

SS:

Well, I would guess I'm "doing okay." Not great, but okay. I'm also swamped with so much work going on with this test and related things for the next 3 weeks or so that I haven't had much time to post and wont for a while yet.

This am my W wanted a hug, and said that she "was a little afraid today". I asked her why, and she wouldn't be specific. Since SH urged me to not talk about NC or the R for now, I've been pretty good not to press on these issues. We've had good weekends together (until this past one, when I started working 7days/wk! with 2 more weekends to go!), and I've been making sure I get home early enough to help with dinner or dishes. My W is talking about this report of hers nearing completion, and I'm hoping she'll offer NC on her own after that, but I won't push it without coaching from SH. I still haven't done my "homework" for SH yet, and my W asked me about it the other day, so I need to do that when I can.

We've had some positive developments with our house settlement, but it's far from over, and we're talking to a lawyer tomorrow to explore our options there.

At some point, my W will have to be "reminded" that I won't keep living like this forever, no matter how "nice" things seem. I need the honesty, NC, the whole 27 feet.

I've been "feeling okay" for the most part, and I wonder how much of that is the prozac versus my making a conscious effort to just calm myself down (by not obsessing about posting 24/7, for instance). I did stop taking the prozac yesterday to try to figure this out (but also to be able to drink a couple of amber nectars with a friennd from back east tonight). If I start feeling like the rollercoaster ride is coming back, I'll pick it up again.

Thanks for your thoughts,

Hi 2L,
You're now more than half a year after D-Day, and situation hasn't changed in that WW is still in contact with OM and thinks she can get away with it - right? [sounds oddly familiar... see my trail]
You know, the longer I play this game, the more am I convinced that there's really just one solution, and that's called NC.
I'm very keen to learn why SH thought you shouldnt press this issue... surely, a WS has to reminded regularly of the fact that contacting OP is just not on?? Otherwise they become so cosy in having both, not having to decide, and getting used to having a WS who 'tolerates' this behaviour.

Nick:

I think SH advised I drop NC issue for now because I've only C'd with him once. Still was just fresh back from my "attempted" plan B move.

My W may be finishing the report he's contributing to soon (in the next couple of weeks, perhaps) and told me this am that Rat Meat had fedexed another CD with his report to the office. If so, he's really DONE, and I will be interested to hear if my W offers NC on her own after that. He is probably on the next, similar project she's working on, but she had planned to have others deal with him from that point on. That would start in late fall. She also isn't happy with that job, and has talked again about quitting it. I will encourage those thoughts.

Finally, I have an interview the end of this month for a job out of state. I may take the offer, which I expect to come. I may not. I really don't know yet. If I do, I will REQUIRE NC if my W wants to move with me. If I don't get NC, I may consider moving on my own, and DV.

But I think that, in general, my W is a "classic" WS in the sense that she loves me more than she thinks she does, she doesn't want to lose her family, knows that Rat Meat doesn't want to lose his, and just needs to get it through her head that "friends" will never be possible from now on, because of their history.

I'm glad you are pretty even. I am gone a lot this month and don't have time to read many threads and perhaps catch you reporting somewhere else, so I just thought I would ask.

I find when traveling that I hope good things for you ( and many others.) Thanks for letting us know how you are. I agree that you can spend too much time here, do what Steve recommends. Thanks again.

SS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nick123:
<strong>Hi 2L,
You're now more than half a year after D-Day, and situation hasn't changed in that WW is still in contact with OM and thinks she can get away with it - right? [sounds oddly familiar... see my trail]
You know, the longer I play this game, the more am I convinced that there's really just one solution, and that's called NC.
I'm very keen to learn why SH thought you shouldnt press this issue... surely, a WS has to reminded regularly of the fact that contacting OP is just not on?? Otherwise they become so cosy in having both, not having to decide, and getting used to having a WS who 'tolerates' this behaviour.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nick; you're right, of course, about NC. But the problem is how to present it and when to present it. In my case, it was seen as an "invasion of privacy", in 2L's case, it's "A long-standing issue that has to be dealt with carefully.", and so on.

So I'll say 2 things; First, while in Plan A, one of the MAJOR obstacles we, the BS's have to overcome, is "living with on-going contact for some time".

This does 2 things; it make you VERY strong and almost impervious to pain, believe me, if there's one single element that has allowed me to easily go to Plan B, it's that. And second, it allows the WS time to re-gain trust in the BS. Yes, it's totally counter-intuitive and weird and wrong, but it IS like that. They don't trust that we will be able to satisfy their needs, they don't trust that we will be able to stop LBing, etc. etc. whatever your case may be. The length of time is dependent on each situation, and on each BS's love bank duration.

So that takes care of the "When". As for the "How", again, we must be careful here. It should not be a demand, and preferably, it should be about US not about THEM.

In my case, I left because "I can no longer live with the pain of your divided love, with the pain of sharing you. I choose to remove myself from your triangle."

That allows me to say; "this is not about you at all, it's about me! You can do whatever you like, you are a free bird, sweetie!" Effectively tearing down any possible argument from them. I mean what are they going to say to that? What could my W have said? Nothing! Oh, she tried! "Why do you think I'm still here with you after all this time, doesn't that show you something, that I want us together as a couple?" to which I replied "We have been a couple not because you chose to stay, we have been a couple because I chose to work on our M, show you my love, and show you I care by staying while I knew you were still with the OM. But now, I'm removing myslef from your triangle, as I can no longer stand the pain."

In my case, I left. But you don't have to. You can achieve the same result by having the WS leave, or if that is also not possible, by showing by your actions and attitude that they are losing you. Believe me, I fought against this with all my might. I fought for the LOGIC of NC, for the decency of NC...nothing worked until I showed her she was losing me...think about it.

So, yes NC is important, critical, necessary, crucial. BUT how and when we implement it is key to having things go more our way. If it's a demand, and a pressure-point, it's likely to encounter serious resistance. Think about it...devise YOUR plan for it.

<small>[ August 14, 2002, 01:05 AM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

SC:

"So I'll say 2 things; First, while in Plan A, one of the MAJOR obstacles we, the BS's have to overcome, is "living with on-going contact for some time".

"This does 2 things; it make you VERY strong and almost impervious to pain, believe me, if there's one single element that has allowed me to easily go to Plan B, it's that."

My experiences over the past month, with trying to go to plan B and then moving back home, starting on prozac, really have made me realize that this is exactly what I've done. I've gotten a lot stronger, knowing that: yes, my W does love me and our family, and no, I can't "fix" her problems for her or even help her fix them herself. I can worry my @$$ off about what she's doing or saying to Rat Meat behind my back, what she may or may not be planning about her future or the nature of our M, any number of things... BUT, NONE OF IT MATTERS. Contact continues, even though I haven't been told it continues. I know that because if it had stopped, I know darn well that she'd be bragging to me about her achieving NC. For a while, I attributed this "levelness" on my part to the prozac, but I don't think that's it anymore. I think it's because I have a clearer picture in my mind of what I need and what I'll do if I get it or don't get it in the next few months. Sure, the details are still to be worked out, but the general outcome is becoming clearer to me - I'll be in a committed M, hopefully with my W. I clearly won't live the future like the past 12 years, in any way, shape, or form.

"And second, it allows the WS time to re-gain trust in the BS. Yes, it's totally counter-intuitive and weird and wrong, but it IS like that. They don't trust that we will be able to satisfy their needs, they don't trust that we will be able to stop LBing, etc. etc. whatever your case may be. The length of time is dependent on each situation, and on each BS's love bank duration."

And my ability to plan A has become much stronger since *I* have become stronger as an individual. And maybe THIS is the reason for my W's "I'm a little afraid today" comment yesterday. I'm not clinging the way I used to. She's starting to sense that I can really be myself and will stick to my guns regarding NC. You see? Before, she could pretty much count on me periodically bringing up Rat Meat and NC, and ending up LBing. Now, she can't, yet she must know that I know contact is still going on, and yet I don't ask her anything about it. And, unless she starts opening up to me, she won't be able to tell what I'm going to do about it. But she also KNOWS how I think our long-term chances are if it continues. So, again: If she wants info from me, she's going to have to be candid with me to get it.

"That allows me to say; "this is not about you at all, it's about me! You can do whatever you like, you are a free bird, sweetie!" Effectively tearing down any possible argument from them."

Bingo! Don't get baited into the fog arguments! Nobody wins, but the WS THINKS they've won or bought time.

"I mean what are they going to say to that? What could my W have said? Nothing! Oh, she tried! "Why do you think I'm still here with you after all this time, doesn't that show you something, that I want us together as a couple?" to which I replied "We have been a couple not because you chose to stay, we have been a couple because I chose to work on our M, show you my love, and show you I care by staying while I knew you were still with the OM. But now, I'm removing myslef from your triangle, as I can no longer stand the pain.""

Bingo again. My M is still together after 6 months since D-day because *I* didn't throw it in the can when I found out. Many BSs might have. The WS doesn't want the M to end while in the A because they're getting the best of 2 worlds. Why didn't she leave after the A was exposed? Probably because I didn't end the M when I found out AND she could continue the EA by rationalizing that it is a harmless friendship and I'd eventually realize that and she could continue to fence-sit indefinitely.

"In my case, I left. But you don't have to. You can achieve the same result by having the WS leave, or if that is also not possible, by showing by your actions and attitude that they are losing you."

It takes real talent to do this AND stay in the M, but I think I'm learning how to. Like SC and others posting to his threads have said over and over. It's all about letting go and being true to yourself. They can't fight that, so they have to find something else to do to keep what THEY want together, or replace it with something better (which requires THEM to think - out of the fog).

"Believe me, I fought against this with all my might. I fought for the LOGIC of NC, for the decency of NC...nothing worked until I showed her she was losing me...think about it.
So, yes NC is important, critical, necessary, crucial. BUT how and when we implement it is key to having things go more our way. If it's a demand, and a pressure-point, it's likely to encounter serious resistance. Think about it...devise YOUR plan for it."

I'm still working on that, but I think I'm heading in the right direction.

Too many people really don't understand how this all works. For example, I have two friends out for this test that know about my W's A. One is recently DV'd, though there was no A. His W packed up her share of the belongings, took the dog and cats, and moved across the country and hasn't spoken to him since. Probably never will again. The other one has been DV'd for 8 years. He found out about his W's A when she was on a business trip. They didn't try to work on the M, LB'd right and left when they DID communicate, and ended in a nasty DV that tears him apart thinking about it to this day. There are elements in his story that remind me of what I read on this forum, that make me realize that, if he or his W had done much of ANY "A recovery work", that they'd likely still be M'd today. As it is, they will probably never see or speak to each other again.

So. I don't know what will happen to our family, but I have learned, if I've learned anything, that THIS WORK must be undertaken REGARDLESS of the outcome. I was a mess after D-day. But I realize now that I wasn't entirely "together" before D-day either, or there wouldn't have been an A. I don't want to be subjected to infidelity ever again, and so I can't afford to just end my M and hope for a better future. I have to MAKE that future - whether it's with my current W or someone else.

2Long .... you have come a 2long way baby!

Such clarity !

Very very cool.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Thanks Pep! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Great post, 2L!

Very clear, very logical, centered. Coolness!
I wish we could inject that into newbie BSs, I sure would have loved that shot! Saved a lot of time and tears! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Space,

You're right about that vaccine...but just imagine how painful it would be! Also I hope for some cosmic gift/reward in the form of empathy, kindness, greater patience for humanity for all the agony we all feel especially in the beginning when it hurts to just "be". CSue

2L,

My man! this statement of yours is a keeper: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So. I don't know what will happen to our family, but I have learned, if I've learned anything, that THIS WORK must be undertaken REGARDLESS of the outcome. I was a mess after D-day. But I realize now that I wasn't entirely "together" before D-day either, or there wouldn't have been an A. I don't want to be subjected to infidelity ever again, and so I can't afford to just end my M and hope for a better future. I have to MAKE that future - whether it's with my current W or someone else. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you really do understand this whole thing now.

God Bless,

JL

RE: JL's sentiment - ditto!

That helps me, too, 2L. Thanks for that. Took me a while to "get it" as well.

Dave

This is all very cool, guys, we're finally getting it...but can't this all just go a little bit faster!?!?!?!

Where's 2L, BTW?

Hi folks! Here I am.

Had to leave work early to meet with a lawyer, then run to the dealer to pick up my "new" (year old) car.

Just got through with my time on a test at work, then some more starting Saturday and running through to the following weekend. Then, it's off to AZ for a meeting, followed by a drive for that interview.

Then, I think we're going to take a long labor day weekend for a short vacation.

So, although I have meant to cut back on posting, I didn't mean to disappear! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Just been busy with stuff lately. ...still have to do my homework assignment for SH, though, and schedule another appointment. Looks like next month is the earliest I can do that!

Called the spousal unit at her work about some insurance thing a while ago, and she told me that the CD from Rat Meat with his reconstructed report arrived at the office today. She was really happy that it was in. I told her that I am glad too.

She didn't say anything about NC or any future plans, and I didn't press her about them.

I know what I need to do. She can figure out what she needs to do.