unsure...

It's interesting that I also have just begun to read "The Language of Letting Go" or at least I have begun to read some of the selected passages that appear to relate to my situation...while what's written makes a lot of sense in some cases, I think it's hard, or at least has been hard for me to follow thru. I think those things need to be read several times for them to sink in.

A thought occurred to me regarding your H....has he thought of taking anti-deps?

It took nearly a year for my wife's IC and her Gyn to convince her to begin taking them. She started this spring...(I think during her second bout of withdrawal from OM). It really helped to level off her emotions...I mean REALLY helped.

Prior to taking them she was a basket case---which even she admitted. She finally disussed taking them with an office partner who had been on them for years and decided she would try. She is still on them and, while it doesn't help the indecision and lack of commitment problem, it does take the ege of the raw emotions that seem to be such a large part of withdrawal and departure from the OP.

Just a suggestion, but I can testify to that fact that they worked for my WW.

Good luck, take care

E

Elad -- Thanks for your thoughts about the anti-d's. When my WH was actually seeing a therapist he suggested anti ds but my WH would have none of it. Also stopped going to his IC and won't agree to MC. I guess I should be thankful he's reading.

I'm a bit frustrated right now because WH just called to say that he was frustrated because he went to talk to the apartment managers where he is living to see if he could get his rent reduced as promised if he was there longer than six months. They said no and he said he asked if he could have a rent reduction if he signed up for another six month lease. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I stayed calm, but when he called back I told him that I was a bit taken aback by his remark that he had decided to sign another six month lease. He waffled around with no real statement other than "I was just checking to see if I could get a reduction. I'm not really sure I want another six months".

He asked if we could continue our discussion from last night again on Sunday/could he come over. I agreed. Now, why in the back of my mind do I think he's coming over to tell me he wants a divorce. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Just a fear and I will try to stay calm no matter what.

Elad -- please keep us posted on your situation. And again, thanks for being here at MB and checking in.

unsure---

Your H souns so much like my WW. She was so totally opposed to taking anti-deps...saying that she shouldn't need checmicals and that it was up to her to figure her way out of this mess yada, yada, yada...

But---after taking them she has acknowledged that they have really helped keep her emotions in check and has acknowleged the days when she has forgotten to take a pill that her emotions can get kind of out of whack.

She (and I) worry a little about how she will be when she eventually gets weaned off them, although right now I don't know if I will be around to deal with that...we may have gone our separate ways by then--who knows.

Sorry your H is contemplating another six month lease. I will say this: When my WW left the second time (moved her stuff out last New Year's Eve) there was no way I could have predicted I woudl make it on my own thru all of this until August and here I am...struggling but still keeping my head above water...you can do it, too.

Keep paddling <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

E

unsureheart-

I've finally found your thread. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Here's my 2 cents:

It is very obvious that your H is in a crisis.
His R with his supposed "soulmate" is over, his job may be over, and his M may be over, he may be losing you/his good friend. Lots of problems, things ending, etc. Guilt, low self-esteem, life sucks, etc.

Since doing things his way has not worked and instead caused him pain and failure (not to mention hurting, betraying, and breaking the trust of you, his good friend he doesn't want to lose), maybe you could ask him to try another way he has not tried. Perhaps you can negotiate with him (of course without educating/lbing etc)?

(I was thinking of this after reading what Steve Harley said to Spacecase's wife recently.) Maybe ask him "what does you have to lose in trying?"

One thing S.H. suggested to me is to get my WW to talk to him, not as a commitment to the marriage, but to just gather information, gain insight, see some other options. Perhaps your H would agree on those terms? (i.e. it didn't work your way, why not try this way? you don't have only 2 options: divorce or go back to the way things were in a bad M but a third option: have the great life and M you want with the W you already have.)

I know it is taxing on you but I encourage you to stay in Plan A (unless you think your pain/resentment will cause you to push him away and ruin all chance of you M surviving.) I believe in you.

Remember to think of your marriage in the long term. Maybe you are at the end of one chapter and starting another... From what I've read withdrawal takes a long time especially if still in contact with OP.

I think it is good that you tell him you don't want a D if he brings it up. It seems that both of you are very sad. You had a nice vacation together. Perhaps you can do more fun things together (especially if he takes time off/quits.)

Definately, give yourself more fun time. It is great that you are going out with your friend to have fun. You deserve it. Sometimes we all need a temporary break/escape from problems/life. A breather.

As for Plan B, I think it is a last, last, last resort (for everyone in our siutation). I think if it works, it works for wayward spouses who realize they are going to lose their best friend or someone who feels like a family member for the rest of their life. This may get them out of their A but there is still a long road to recovery. You are almost at the start of that road.

Your H obviously loves you as a dear friend/family member right now and doesn't want to lose you (especially being a a crisis right now, he depends on you.)

I believe that the romantic love he doesn't feel for you at this moment in time CAN DEFINATELY return.

I admire your patience unsureheart.

As you know I'm having my own M problems, so please realize that I have no expertise or crystal ball to give advise. I don't want to lead you in the wrong direction and give you bad advice.

I wish you the best.

--------------------------------------------------
BS 27, WW 27
M 4 yrs, together 7, friends for 18
2/22/02 WW out w/OM (coworker) until 3AM
3/02 WW wants separation, admits "feelings" for OM. Loves me but not "in love" with me.
3/02-4/02 WW moves to parents but visits me.
4/02-5/02 Plan A starts. WW moves back but is rarely home. Admits revealing feelings to OM.
5/9/02 Discover WW & OM together at beach.
5/12/02 - 6/02 Angry WW moves back into parents'
6/13/02 WW out of fog for a day. Kisses me, etc.
6/14/02 - 7/02 WW says 6/13 was a mistake & is back on an angry, money hungry warpath.
7/02 - 8/9 WW more calm. Vists to get personal items, mail, occasionally mentions divorce.
8/10 WW moves into her own apartment. Says she still wants to still be friends with me after she divorces me.

Glad you caught up aanast -- I just read your post over in planA/B.

I'm learning to take things one day at a time (hard for me the advanced planning type).

Hi USH, yes try SCUBA diving. I was scared too. The first dive in the ocean i freaked, but I talked myself through it and did it. It made me feel good to face that fear. I'm off for a dive tomorrow actually.

Where did you work in Africa? I won a holiday to Africa a few years back. We stayed in Tazania mainly. I loved it. I left part of my heart there and I will go one day again. I would love to do a walking safari.

The first time we saw lions there were 6 - 2 females, a male and three cubs, they were eating something. WH freaked (we were in an open land rover) he was sweating and i thought he was going to faint. I don't know I was scared but I wasn't -same as when I dived with sharks.

I love the ele's and hippos. We stayed near Grumetti river and dined under the stars! In the back ground you could hear hippos blowing bubbles. We also heard a hyena laugh - they sound so human.You know, the scariest part was the light plane flights, ugh, yuck!

Gosh, thanks for that memory USH, I can still transport myself back there.

Have fun at your bachelorette party. And remember we are all praying for you.

unsureheart, I read the "diary of a madman" post last night, have you read it?? Suggest printing it out, though, LONG!!!!!!!!!!!!

A very strange weekend. Where to start. I took the bus home from the party on Friday and arrived to find my car broken into/smashed windows at the park and ride. I called the police and dealt with filing a claim/etc and by the time I got home it was 2:00 a.m.

There were two messages on my answering machine. Both from WH reading me passages from a book that night (Men in Midlife Crisis) that he found particularly compelling. I don't know why, but it just hit me that I was so alone and the car and everything else and I just started to cry. I called WH's cell phone thinking I would get the answering maching/that he would not pick up in the middle of the night. He did and heard me crying and he said he was getting in the car and coming right over (25 minute drive). I just sat there crying and he held me and then made me warm milk to help me get to sleep at about 4:30 a.m.. The next morning he was helping me drop the car off at the repair place and he gave me big hug and kiss and told me he loved me -- for the first time in I don't know how long.

He had to go up to the mountains to help a friend running a 24 hour marathon. He called the next morning, Sunday, and said he was going to go drive home and would I like to barbecue/could he come over so that we could talk. He came over and we started to cook and he looked flat out exhausted from two nights with little sleep and running 13 miles in the middle of the night. He fell asleep on the couch with his dessert in his lap. I told him he could stay or I could drive him home if he did not want to stay. He went to bed. This morning he apologized for being so tired and for not being able to talk last night. I told him it was ok and that he had looked so incredibly tired/kept shutting his eyes while eating his dinner.

We have two wedding related events together this week, but I don't think we'll try to talk then about whatever it is he wants to talk about. I am so afraid that he's going to say he wants a divorce again. I felt so hopeful Saturday morning after the hug, but I still have this nagging fear in the back of mind after our conversations last week.

Seahorse -- I realize in my haste to put up the weekend events, I did not answer your questions. I worked Kenya in the Masai Mara Game Reserve. It was by far, the most amazing and wonderful experience of my life. I worked on a project with American and British wildlife biologists. Your recollection of the sound of hyenas brings back so many memories. The sounds and the smells. I was so young (20) and had not yet met my husband. Thinking about it now really makes we wonder if my marriage doesn't work out whether I would ever want to go back and work there or do something similar.

unsureheart-

sorry to hear about the car incident. glad to hear your H was there in your time of need.

quote--------------------------------------------
We have two wedding related events together this week, but I don't think we'll try to talk then about whatever it is he wants to talk about. I am so afraid that he's going to say he wants a divorce again. I felt so hopeful Saturday morning after the hug, but I still have this nagging fear in the back of mind after our conversations last week.
quote--------------------------------------------

One thing I try to remind myself when I fear something is that fear is dumb - keep in mind though I still get afraid <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> but seriously, if you think about it, it is true.

The next time you fear something, don't stop there. Face it. Follow it through to its conclusion. Think about it - what is the worse case scenario. A divorce? Obviously we have all thought about that (you mentioned thinking about a return to a time from when you were 20 with wildlife etc if things don't work out, so you are strong if things don't work out you will be fine.)

What I'm getting at I guess is that around 3 weeks ago things were getting better with you and your H. Then a week later things went haywire again (he mentions D etc.) Now this week things are getting better. It seems that there are huge rollercoaster/emotional/polar swings that occur each week or so. And it hurts you. You become sad.

This week you are feeling better and don't want that sh*tty feeling again. Very understandable. Perhaps knowing that your H may mention divorce again, facing your fear of that, may make you stronger so you won't feel so crushed if it does happen.

Believe I know it is easier said than done and it hurts. Sometimes I feel it is the one "weapon" in my wife's arsenal that she uses to get me to pull the plug on the M so she won't have to.

Anyway, I'm rambling tonight. I hope my post is encouraging and not a downer.

Reading your posts and others here are testaments to the human condition - hope. Your patience and strength is inspiring to me. As always, I wish you the best in your life - whatever happens, and with whatever *you* want.

Unsureheart: so sorry your car got vandalized, any suspects? I am so happy that your husband came to be with you. Stay strong and loving, try not to push the relationship conversations (as much as we want to). It really sounds like your husband is just scared and doesn't know what to do. I would take it very encouraging that he is reading a book on Midlife Crisis, that says alot to me, JMHO. He realizes that he is not himself and not behaving the way he should, and also to call give you a quote, I feel like hes trying to reach out to you. Take it slowly, be patient. Also, I know exactly how worrying about conversations could go. I was expecting my WH to tell me all kinds of awful stuff Saturday, but he didn't. He just said he's having a hard time, etc. I tried to make the day as pleasant as possible with no LB's. Keep it up, youre doing well. Stay positive. I called a friend of mine before WH came over, she told me that if you think negative thoughts, you will have negative actions. Just a thought to ponder...

Aanast -- Thank you for your thoughts. They are encouraging. I hope things are going well for you/I will check to see if you've posted about what is happening with WW in her own apartment.

Goingcrazy -- I feel like we are in the exact same place. That email from your WH over in your other post about being caught in a web could have been written by my WH just a few weeks ago. I think patience is the key.

Thanks to you both. I am going to take it one day at a time. Go to rehearsal dinner and wedding (they are mid-week/tomorrow which is a bit odd, but) and just try and enjoy myself and not say anything about our relationship. I am really just trying to be supportive without being a crutch. He needs to get through this on his own. It is really hard for me. One day I want to shake him and tell him I cannot take it one more second. The next day I feel nothing but pity because he is struggling so much. Today, I am somewhere in the middle. I want to help where I can. I'm just frustrated because he is in it so deep and won't even consider getting professional counseling right now.

I see my therapist this afternoon (he also used to counsel WH so is well aware of the situation). Then I have a birthday dinner with my next door neighbor and her family -- they have been my greatest source of support and love throughout this ordeal and have also been very supportive of WH (they went through their own hell as a couple 7 years ago). I am really looking forward to a night with them before the wedding chaos begins (it will be full of many triggers for my WH).

USH, I am so sorry about your car but glad you H came to help and that you are OK. ****ty things happen unfortunately, and its always when you can least handle it.

I do the 'what if' stuff too I must admit and I know I shouldn't. I have got myself into real trouble doing that just recently and overracting (because I got all worked up), but I'm learning and I'm trying not to be too hard on myself. I guess what i'm trying to say is that the conversation may be about D, but it may also be babble or it may be something really nice. The wedding too. You are so strong, and I believe you will get through no matter what.

What happened regarding your H's job, did he end up taking leave? Maybe you could both head off to Africa together! I know, I know, its a nice dream though.

Seahorse -- WH has done nothing on the job front. He gets back into the thick of things there and becomes so consumed with it that he becomes paralyzed. He called again last night complaining about how awful the current situation at work is for him right now, but he has done nothing to start on the path of taking the time off. Fortunately or unfortunately (I'm not really sure how to view it right now), he is climbing this weekend with someone that he considers to be somewhat of a mentor (although he also frequently disregards this man's advice) and I know that this person believes he is in over his head in his job and will encourage him to take the time off.

The therapists advice yesterday is that it is about time to cut off WH -- that he has so many other issues and really needs to fall and fall hard in order to "get it". We discussed a time frame and what would need to happen with WH to be considered progress. The A is just a symptom of a whole other set of issues and the therapists opinion is that this limbo could go on for a VERY long time because WH simply does not want to face reality and his own demons. This would be akin to a plan B. The therapist has been supportive of the Harley approach, but also believes that it may take something huge (such as plan B and cutting off contact) in order to cause WH to face everything. I am really not ready to do this, but have scheduled another appt. for September 9th and will review what has happened at that time and see if I am ready for a decision.

Right now I just need to get through the rehearsal dinner tonight and the wedding tomorrow. I am so afraid that I am going to burst into tears during the ceremony -- not just get teary-eyed, but a full blown cry with my nose running etc.

This morning was bittersweet as I received the most lovely and supportive email from a good friend and his wife in NYC that are having their own challenges. He and his wife must have a six sense as to when I need a boost. It really made me feel good.

Thank you all for your support. Seahorse -- what did you decide on the anniversary card? I will check your other post.

Hey unsureheart,

I just wanted you to know that you sound like you are handling your situation wonderfully. And I appreciate your thread. It has helped me refocus and restore hope for my M. We still have WAY too much in common, it is starting to scare me! Did I mention that I have this huge fear of SCUBA diving, and that my H has begged me to get over it! Keep doing what you are doing, it sounds like it might be having positive effects. I, on the other hand, am having a difficult time not LB right now with all that is going on. You asked me once if my story was on here somewhere... Well I did a quick summary on a thread called ARRGG at the Plan A/Plan B board (I don't know how to make a link, but I will try...)
[url]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=30;t=001401[url]

Good luck to you, you are in my prayers!

pq's short story

Hey! I think I got it this time!

Thanks pq -- I'll respond to your posts over on your main thread/it sounds as if you are really have a time of it trying not to LB and your WH is still in a huge fog. I can tell you that things got much better for me (not that they are great now, but certainly better) once I could really try and not LB.

The wedding. I did ok until this morning. The rehearsal dinner was lovely and I thought we'd had a good time. On our drive back up to the wedding itself, however, I had to listen to WH complain about almost every single friend he has that was there. He is so negative. Every statement made by friends he hasn't seen in a while he interpreted as criticism. Small comments by the groom he considered criticism. It's hard for me to be supportive, but I tried by saying "I hadn't interpreted the comments that way, but you know them better than I do".

The wedding was beautiful, outside with the mountains and sunset as a backdrop. My WH wouldn't stand too near me (we got there late so had to stand/there were no seats). I got many compliments on my appearance (except from WH)/that I looked beautiful and seemed happy (boy if some of these folks only knew). Even though WH was in a funk all evening, I had a good time talking with people, dancing, and even sitting in one of the outdoor rock hot tubs with WH's best friend and his wife. As I was coming down the path from the hottub back to the reception, WH approaches me and says it's time to leave/he's not having a good time. I said ok we can go home. On the drive home I asked "That was a lovely ceremony and very nice people, did you have a good time". His response was something like "I guess so."

It was so disheartening. The groom is one of his closest friends for the past 20 years and they haven't been close for the last two due WH's withdrawn state, the A, and his general dropping out of society. We also ran into many other old friends. It was quite a lovely evening.

This morning I went out and got coffee and scones and let WH sleep late. I did fine until I was just about to leave for work and then I got really sad. WH asked what was the matter and I blew it. I started crying and said something to effect that for the past two days almost every man at the wedding events had commented on how beautiful I looked, but that WH hadn't been able to once even say you look nice tonight. That was so stupid I know, but I couldn't help it. I felt really down and last night I just felt as if it were all over.

I know this type of comment just makes him feel guilty and I shouldn't have raised this just prior to him leaving on a climb this weekend. We won't be able to talk and he's feeling really pressed at work. Sometimes though I do think it's important not to keep it all in. I did not make a comment about his negativity over the past two days.

Feeling pretty low right now. Won't see him for at least several days and did not leave him on an up note. Sorry for the whining. It was just so hard to be a wedding right during all of this.

I sounds to me like you did very well! One small slip up is not going to negate ALL the happy times you both had. I know it is hard to be upbeat all the time, especially when you are hurting. But you did a lot better than I would have!

I feel like my H and I are just in a holding pattern right now. It's like it is not good but it's not bad either. I HATE IT! I want us to start rebuilding our marriage, not just being friends that room together. I have been packing all day, and I feel completely overwhelmed at what I need to accomplish by Thursday! I guess I just need to look at it like I do my marriage... Baby steps, baby steps, and you will get there... Thanks for listening!

Hi USH, don't do plan B before your really ready. Everyone will try to push you into to make themselves feel better, including the occasional poster here.

Only do it when your ready, because I'm telling you its much harder than plan A and it really sux. Most days I feel depressed and teary and wonder if it would have been better to continue plan Aing.

The worst part is all your friends suddenly start talking like you've ended your M and will find someone new soon. It really hurts that they treat your marriage as if it were nothing.

Hi pq -- I responded to you on your other post "what do I do now". I think the move will be good, but probably stressful. I will be thinking of you this week while you pack up and move.

Seahorse -- I get teary reading your posts because I KNOW you are special and that your marriage meant the world to you. You tried hard for a long time and you are still trying. That is an amazing feat in and of itself and many could not do what you did/are doing.

About the friends thing, I know, sometimes people talk to me like I am either a) a nut for trying to hold my M together for this long or b) as if the M were already over. I think I'll get the two of t-shirts printed up that we can wear everyday that say, "Yes, I'm still married to head up his rump, thanks for asking". Then, we don't have to answer questions.

I cannot imagine how you are feeling in plan B. There is still hope. I believe I will have hope for you and me and our marriages until somebody files for a D and I do not believe that will happen. I am more worried that by the time your WH gets his head out of his rump and realizes what a great wife and marriage he could have, you will be the one that has nothing left.