Thanks -- I just feel like a dodo for not being able to stop from crying last night. I know I made him feel worse than he already does, but I just feel like we're stuck in a cycle with no way out of it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by unsureheart:
<strong>I just feel like we're stuck in a cycle with no way out of it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Usure:

Well, there is one way out and that's for you to give up. It seems like you and I are in the same place because we see what's happening and we aren't willing to give up.

Some would call that courageous and dedicated...others would call it plain stupid. I don't know which way I would lean.

Some days I feel like I am doing the right thing by hanging in there and letting my WW try to "sort" her issues out...and othres I just feel like I am letting my life slip by by not confronting this head-on and being more pro-active.

It's hard when the signals are conflicting, too. Like this week...my WW knew I was at a dinner on Monday night and when I got to my car to leave she had been there and left a basket of goodies and a card.

The card said she wanted to leave the stuff 'cause it's things I wouldn't buy myself and she was sure I never spoil myself...(she's right) and that she wanted me to know she was thinking about me...but then she also said don't read too much into it....jeeeeez. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I think for your WH and for my WW, there is something that is just holding them back from making a commitment...of allowing themselves to do that and allowing themselves to feel the "in love" feeling again.

Until they get to the point where they are willing to let go of whatever is holding them back and allow themselves to move forward, there seems like there is precious little we can do.

But it seems like it just gets harder and harder to hang in there as the days go by...

Did you read Michelle Weiner Davis? She is the advocate of baby steps...maybe that's where they are at and we have to recognize their efforts as just that--baby steps.

Anyway, unsure, I just want to let you know that you aren't alone, that others are hearing the same things from their WS as you are and are feeling the same type of frustration and helplessness you feel.

It doesn't fix anything, that's for sure, but I hope it is a little consolation... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Make sure to take care of yourself...

E

Hello GC and Elad -- It helps to know you're out there somewhere.

Yes, I did read Divorce Remedy by Michelle Weiner Davis. It helps tremendously to think about baby steps. Rationally I know that this concept is right, but it is very hard to live day-to-day like this.

Both WH and I have bad colds this weekend. WH is on his way over here now to have waffles. He wanted to see me before I left this afternoon for a few days (I have to go to the western part of the state for an early a.m. meeting tomorrow and am stopping to see my sister tonight) and he's out of town most of this week.

His 40th birthday is on Saturday and he has been adamant that he doesn't want to acknowledge it/celebrate it, etc. He is going to go climbing by himself in the mountains next weekend. He did ask last night if I could meet him at a friend's cabin on Sunday or Monday. Baby steps.

The hardest part right now is that my boss, who is friends with WH, keeps telling me that I need to "move on with my life" not wait for WH to make up his mind. I know he is trying to be helpful, but it is really difficult to communicate to people why this is so important. My response to date has been that I cannot just throw away 14 years of friendship and love, however imperfect, and that I need to try.

My boss also is part of this men's group that includes my WH. They are insisting on trying to do something for WH's birthday (to which WH has said no thank you) and are also talking about doing an "intervention". I have been adamant with my boss that WH's therapist has told me this a mistake and will just push him further away.

How have you handled well meaning friends and colleagues?

What do you do to keep yourself sane at night when you start to obsess about the fact that it is taking so long?

quote-------------------------------------------
How have you handled well meaning friends and colleagues?

What do you do to keep yourself sane at night when you start to obsess about the fact that it is taking so long?
quote-------------------------------------------

Wow, both good questions that I've thought about a lot.

As for the first question, if they are people who I can reason with (my mom is not very reasonable on this issue <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) I tell them that this waiting/Plan A is about me and my feelings. I also cite some of the examples from SAA (eg. though I'm not blaming myself for the A, I wasn't a perfect spouse and I'd like a chance to be a better one, and a good sign that WS has not filed for divorce.)

Many of my friends understand and some to a certain extent respect what I'm doing but wonder how long I'm going to wait. (I also tell my friends and family that it has only been many months not many YEARS of me waiting.)

To be honest, I'm not sure how long I'll wait but I guess I'll know when it is long enough.

Additionally, I thank my friends for their concern (they do just want what is best for me and warn me about WS repeating the cheating behavior in the future...) I tell them that I've done research, read books, spoken with counselors, have a support group, and have heard of many people in my situation who have succeeded in having a better marriage. All of those things also give me hope and strength to keep waiting.

It is kinda like me telling them that I know better than they do (like Steve Harley saying his crystal ball says something different than those that predict that marriage can't survive A's.)

As for your second question, hmmmm... I don't really have a good answer here. Sometimes there is nothing I can do but feel sad and cry. Other times I don't cry but feel withdrawn or indifferent, then I feel guilty. Usually I try to redirect or suppress my thoughts, and focus on new challenges/fun at work or plans with my friends for the weekend or new hobbies. I'm not sure how healthy it is to not deal with those thoughts and the pain, but then again I don't think what we are doing is healthy for an extremely long period of time.

Plan A for life is good when the WS returns, but if there is no return, recovery, reconcilliation, eventually all BS's need to move on and divorce. It would be unhealthy to wait forever. It would be unhealthy to suppress thoughts and emotions regarding the relationship and WS for the rest of our lives. However, for the (relatively short) period of time for Plan A, perhaps not dealing with certain thoughts/feelings is better for keeping us patient/holding out longer for A to die/M to work out etc.

I'm just brainstorming here but I guess what I'm saying is that as an individual it is not a good idea to not deal with issues (i.e. it will cause more ?psychological? ?relationship? problems in the future.)

But for the M's sake, if we temporarily deny those things in order to hold out longer, it is the sacrifice we make to save the M. (Again, we, BS, do not deserve the be treated the way we have and continued to be, and deserve more than the mere bread crumbs thrown at us from WS, but it is only temporary whatever happens.)

Am I making sense or just rambling? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi Unsureheart,
I wouldn't particularly listen to your boss's advice - what does he know? I see that you are really down a bit - I wish you lots of energy now. I mean, to spend the 10th anniversary like you did must and does hurt. But in essence, nothing has changed, or has it. You are still in plan A, you still do this for you, not him. So far, there are some positive signs from his side, like recognising the work problem. Now he has to follow it through and mean business. Encourage him doing it. Tell him exactly, black & white, what you are expecting, how you are feeling. Tell him that if he can't do it, then you can't continue with him like that. Tell him that there's a big decision just around the corner, that the status quo isn't a stable state. I would give him this clear roadmap as a prelude to an eventual plan B.
Good luck, and keep us in the loop
Nick

<small>[ September 23, 2002, 05:59 AM: Message edited by: Nick123 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by unsureheart:
<strong>

How have you handled well meaning friends and colleagues?

What do you do to keep yourself sane at night when you start to obsess about the fact that it is taking so long?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi unsure--

Well, question #1 is pretty easy for me becuase I just don't deal with them. I have told my friends that I appreciate their allowing me to deal with this on my own and that if I want to discuss it with them I will but in the meantime, I live with this 24/7 and the time that I am with them serves me better to discuss and do other things. I have great friends and they have totally respected that wish.

Question #2---I try to keep busy. I work out, read a lot, spend time with my friends (see question #1) but you're right...the whole thing comes home to roost at night whther you want it to or not. I just try to keep putting one foot in t of the other every day...I wish I had a better answer than that but we all have to deal with this the best way we can.

Keep hanging in there...you are doing good even if it doesn't seem like it to you...you are <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

BTW---I think your boss is all wet...

Take care...

E

<small>[ September 23, 2002, 07:47 AM: Message edited by: Elad ]</small>

Hi USH, just popped in to update on you. Sorry it is hard, but actually I was thinking that you are certainly getting good signs from him. This could also be a reflection on how hopeless my situation is, but at least you two are doing 'friend' kind of things. Its a great start, work from that.

Hi US
I'm new here just here to share a little something from a poster on this site QG.I thought you would like this.

I mostly post in P/C My H. A ended in july of 2002 b4 H and I had no contact for almost 2yrs. we communicate everyday now.

H lives in another state from me. Xow moved back to her hometown. Oh by the way OW trapped H with a OC 3weeks after meeting H. I feel very strong this is not H, OC.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=020232

You are going to be fine.

How are things unsureheart?

ditto

Hello elad, aanast, malc, seahorse, nick123, going crazy (and others I hope I'm not forgetting).

I am more than a bit tired. WH's 40th birthday was yesterday and he made it clear he wanted no celebration, etc. So, I decided to make plans for myself that would take me outside/into the beauty of the fall here in the Rocky Mountains and get away from thinking about WH for a few days. I just got back.

I hiked in alone in a driving snow on Friday afternoon to meet friends that had gone up earlier in the day. It's a hike I had done before in Rocky Mountain National Park that takes you up to about 10,600 feet to the base of glacially formed bowl with a lake. It was a really unpleasant slog in and I thought many times about turning around, but in the back of my head I thought "WH would imagine I would turn around and not tough it out/not make it." Thankfully, when I felt I was almost out of steam, two very nice guys came up the trail behind me and offered to walk with me as far as the turn off for the campsite where my friends were waiting. It was nice to have that last mile with others as it was getting dark, getting much colder, and frankly not much fun.

I got to the campsite and was greeted with the smiles of my best friend (who I have known since I was 10 years old), her husband and her two small children. They helped me get my tent up and get my stove going in the wind and snow. We had dinner and sat in their big tent and played cards. The next morning we went for an absolutely stunning hike up to a lake and got back to camp just in time for it to start snowing heavily again. More card playing and laughing. The kids slept with me in my tent the second night (I was glad for the extra warmth -- it dropped well below freezing) and we could hear coyotes howling as we drifted off to sleep.

It was snowing again this morning so we decided we should try and pack out early. The upper altitudes were snowy, but as I descended to the lower elevations, I was treated with a spectucular view of the aspens changing and a light dusting of snow on the peaks with the backdrop of a clear blue sky. It was a real treat.

Nothing to update about WH. He's off in the wilderness alone for the next several days and I don't expect to hear from him until tomorrow. He wants to talk again on Thursday. I told him before he left that I would be happy to meet him in the mountains on Thursday to spend time together, but I was not particularly interested in another dead end discussion. Probably an LB, but I really cannot afford to keep taking time off from work so that WH can tell me "he's confused".

I feel good today (well, I need some advil and bourbon to take away the strain of that 45 pound backpack and sleeping on the ground). I have to take things one day at a time.

I know my boss and many of my friends think I am nuts, but I do feel that I can keep trying and that my lovebank is not empty. Reading going crazy's post about a perfect planA/marriage really inspired me. Highly recommended reading.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by unsureheart:
<strong>
Nothing to update about WH. He's off in the wilderness alone for the next several days and I don't expect to hear from him until tomorrow. He wants to talk again on Thursday. I told him before he left that I would be happy to meet him in the mountains on Thursday to spend time together, but I was not particularly interested in another dead end discussion. Probably an LB, but I really cannot afford to keep taking time off from work so that WH can tell me "he's confused". </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How did he take it when you told him about not wanting another dead-end conversation? Is your husband like mine, where he wants to have all these "talks", but nothing ever gets accomplished??

I was also wondering if it was an LB myself when WH wanted to talk to me last. He wanted to talk last week about "the whole shubang", I told him that if it was going to be a repeat of our last conversation, that I did not want to talk. Needless to say, he didn't come over.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by unsureheart:
<strong>I know my boss and many of my friends think I am nuts, but I do feel that I can keep trying and that my lovebank is not empty. Reading going crazy's post about a perfect planA/marriage really inspired me. Highly recommended reading.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">well, first I wanted to thank you about my post, remember this is all God's word, he has a plan for marriage, and what we are going through is not his plan, however, we can abide by his will by trusting him and doing what he says.

I too, feel the same way, about my lovebank not being empty. I really feel both of us have reached the point of "unconditional love" (read Spacecases Truth about Relationships post).

Yes, people think I'm crazy, but it is my life. Something I try to remember is that, if it takes a couple of years of pain in my life to eventually acheive the marriage of my dreams that I never could imagine, I will do it. I see so many marriages that just "exist" throughout life. I believe that we can take something so awful and negative and turn it into something beautiful and positive.

Keep us posted on if he is going to "talk" or not, get some rest, sounds like you need a long bubble bath!!!

GC -- WH's therapist told me the last time he called to check in on WH/his depression (we never really discuss the A situation much/that's between WH and his therapist) -- he said, "I really applaud you for hanging in there in what has to be a very tough time for you. Most women would have given up under these circumstances. Most people give up too soon." That really helped me.

The world needs more people that do not give up when the going gets tough -- I believe that for so many situations now.

I'm definitely going for that bubble bath.

<small>[ September 29, 2002, 07:07 PM: Message edited by: unsureheart ]</small>

Wow. I really enjoyed reading about your hike. I can only imagine what that is like. No mountains here in Chicago (although sometimes driving down the street in the winter can be an adventure <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ). Just being out in nature (though challenging) seems very serene and beautiful. A place for reflection and healing. Ok, now I'm sounding all zen-like but honestly I'm jealous! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
It sounds great.

Being with your friends seemed to really make you feel better too.

I'm glad you are taking things step by step and are not in any hurry. It must have felt good for you to hear (from the doc) that you are not crazy in waiting or that all of us here on MB are not crazy, pathetic, clingy losers because we want our M's to work.

I used to ask my WW what she had to lose in trying to make the M work. Now I ask myself. Honestly, what do we have to lose in waiting and trying to be a good spouse (since we are still married)? Time, I guess (which is not a big deal to me) and maybe more pain (but I think we'd experience this if we were divorcing anyway.)

Well, keep hanging in there and keep posting.

Unsure,
Where are you located at??? Just wondering because WH, D and I hiked up Bridal Vail Falls this weekend and it was SO BEAUTIFUL!!! When you mentioned the Rockies, I just wondered what part. Nice to hear that you had a good time!

P.S.
How's the bath going??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

aanast and pq-- Hello. Well, after that great weekend with friends I spoke to WH on Monday morning and he said he had a great trip and would call later that day as to where he was going to be (one of two locations in the mountains about an hour and a half away).

Then, Monday afternoon I received a call from two women that do contract work for me and know WH and OW (although they did not previously know about the A). They ran into WH and OW buying wine at a liquor store in a town seven hours from here at the same time WH was supposedly off in the wilderness by himself.

Here's the link to that whole mess.
A is on again

I'm not doing too well today. Although, thankfully, my boss called WH and told him that under no circumstances should OW be at the meeting tomorrow or I would leave.