Elad -- 10th anniversary tomorrow. I wish you the strength to get through that no matter what it brings. My tenth anniversary is about two weeks away and I haven't a clue what I will or won't be doing. Thank you for your thoughts.

Nick -- As always, I look forward to future polls at the fog & fence. My WH used to live in London so I am sure he frequented the establishment and is currently enjoying draughts at the satellite pubs here in the u.s.

Stillwaiting --- Thank you for your words of encouragement. I remember you from keeping up with PI -- do you have any word on her situation?

Going crazy -- Thanks for checking in with me.

I don't have anything to say today other than thank you all for being here. It gets me through the rough days and frequently gives me hope.

I am reading a book called "Finding Fish" and that is surely an inspiration for me to stop whining and feeling sorry for myself. It is the true story of an orphan who basically got lost in the system with a physically and verbally abusive family and then institutions and other difficulties but goes on to be successful. I try not to read books that are depressing and at first I thought this might be, but it is actually a very uplifting tale of perservance and believing in yourself despite the worst of odds.

Time for a hot bath, sip of cognac and bed.

<small>[ September 05, 2002, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: unsureheart ]</small>

Hi UH, I'm afraid I haven't heard anything more on PI, the last message I read was from Orchid, and am still wondering where she is and what she's doing. Her WH emailed me to tell me stuff that I find out was a lie, and I guess trying to make himself look like the BS instead of the other way around.
If you hear of anything at all, do let me know, you can email me at monikawithak@hotmail.com

Just to share with you a bit about what happened to me on my 10th Anniversary (June 28/02)
Of course my situation is far from yours, I don't see my WH at all. He has been out of the picture coming up 7 years in Nov.
I am a singer, and have a ministry sharing my testimony and singing at different churches or retreats. I just so happened to be booked the whole weekend of my anniv. That never happens, usually one concert per weekend, but I believe that God knew I had to be kept busy and that I was!
The day before my anniv. was the worst, I shed alot of tears, and felt the need to write him a letter, which i did just for my own sake, not his.
the first one was major LBing, so I tossed it really fast, and then I wrote from the heart, I did not send it, but it was neccesary for me to write it. I was fine the day of my anniv. and played a concert that evening, as well as the next. The Sunday morning after I gave my testimony and sang at a Church and of course my topic is always about hanging on to marriage, and when I finished the number of people that approached me to tell me that they were going through this same stuff, was amazing. I had been invited to stay for a lunch bbq and a lady approached me saying she thinks she knew my husband. I was kinda curious as to how, and I guess he (being a meat salesman when we were together) had sold her some frozen meat, I said, "How did you connect me with this salesman?"
She said, "He never stopped talking about you"
"I just wanted you to know, that he really loved you!" Well I broke down in tears, and was so overwhelmed with remembering how good we were together, and how much he really did love me(before his fog of course). I really believe that God gave me an awesome anniv. present in that!
During the years we've been apart, it's easy to forget the good stuff and only remember the bad..., but He allowed me to have that awesome feeling of being loved - WOW - how I needed to remember that!
A few days later I was able to watch my wedding video without tears! What a wedding!
I share this because I really believe that you can find some comfort in knowing that God knows how you feel, and what you are going through, and that if you don't get a good response from your WS, you certainly can get one from God. That was probably my best anniv. since my WH has been gone.
Well my friend, I will be praying for you both, and I also know just from reading these posts, there is no doubt that your WS loves you deeply, he just has not come out of his fog yet either.
God Bless you, and have an awesome day...
Monika

unsureheart -

I agree with you. There are definite glimmers of hope.

And despite the bad, you continue. From what I've read, many women cannot do a long Plan A (because they cannot resist the urge to LB.) I think you are doing great.

One thing that I've been thinking about lately that might help is that with any kind of vocation, there are tough times. Reminding one's self of why he/she got into it in the first place, and looking on one's philosophy (of marriage in this case) can give strength through those rocky times.

These hard times won't last forever. If things work out, they'll be a distant small chapter in a large book of happy times. If things don't work out, we'll know that we did the best we could for ourselves and our M (as it is unhealthy to be in this limbo forever.)

Update. I got up early Saturday and cleaned the house to a spotless shine. WH calls on Saturday morning and says he is going to be a little late. I told him no problem, I would be out running errands/grocery shopping and back in an hour. When I got home WH was there and had picked up the lawn mower (that he had dropped off to be fixed six weeks ago).

He went out and did yard work for about an hour and then we had sandwiches I had prepared. We had a pleasant catch up conversation then. We both went back out and did yard work for the next three hours and then watched some of the U.S. Open together. Dinner time rolled around and WH asked if we should order a pizza, to which I said fine, sounds good. (I never really know how long he plans to stay and he had indicated on Friday it would just be during the day). Enjoyed dinner in the backyard and then WH says he wants to watch the women's final of the U.S. open.

After that was over, he sits down on the couch next to me and says that he told his parents we were having problems. I asked how did that come up (knowing that he rarely shares any kind of personal information with them and fears rejection from his father) and he said his dad was getting on his case for not moving forward with the remodelling job we had wanted to do last year/bids came in way to high. WH responded to this continued pressure by saying "W and I are having problems".

He then said that he still does not know what to do. He knows he loves me, but fears he can never be intimate with me again (it's been a year since SF with WH <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> ). I told him that I thought it would be hard to regain intimacy when we spent so little time together. He said it was difficult to spend time with me because he felt so guilty and that maybe he spent time with me because he felt guilty.

I said "If you are spending time with me simply because you feel guilty then maybe it was not such a good thing for either of us". His response was "I don't spend time with you just because I feel guilty -- I am just confused because I don't know what would make me happy. I think I was happy with OW and I'm happy spending time with the cat". I said, "Well, I love you and want you to be happy and if you really believe that OW can make you happy, then you are free to go". He said "I don't really know if OW makes me happy. I don't know if anything can make me happy." He asked if I was happy. I said "There are many things that make me feel happy and, in general, I am happy about my life, but that the demise of our relationship, including what I contributed to that do not make me feel very happy."

He then asked whether I thought it was possible to regain initimacy. I said "yes, I do believe it is possible and while you don't agree with the Harley books (he tells me this A LOT), I think there are some valuable lessons about spending time and trying not to purposefully hurt eachothers feelings, that are very relevant to our situation". He said "I do not agree and that feeling in love and intimacy are feelings that are going to have to come to him one day and until that time he cannot recommit to our marriage."

He went on to say he wanted to read a book I had on mid-life crisis and could he stay the night in the guest bedroom upstairs. I said that would be fine and we both went to sleep.

The next morning he got up and did a full days more of yard work -- trimming bushes, etc and we watched the men's U.S. Open Finals. At about 5:30 p.m. he asks whether I had anything planned for dinner. I told him what I was making and he asked to stay. While I was cooking dinner, he came in and made two drinks and said "let's go sit outside and talk".

WH then said "I've been thinking all day about what you've said about what you contributed to the problems in our marriage and how some of these things stemmed from your past (my mother is manic depressive and had many episodes of depression/exploding etc./times in the hospital/kids being sent away, etc). I don't think that's the problem." WH then asked me to tell him again what any of this had to do with my ability to really be vulnerable in the marriage and why or how vulnerability had anything to do with love".

I recounted for him what I had discussed with the therapist and that I didn't really think that blaming my childhood was an excuse, but did explain some of my reactions to things that I had done. I also explained that I working with this therapist had really helped me to see some habits I had fallen into as a coping mechanism and that I was working hard to undo/be a better, calmer, less reactive person. WH said he could see the changes.

WH then asked what impact the loss of my two cousins in their childhood and early in our marriage(both committed suicide at ages 12 and 18 respectively). I told him that I had been very scared that I might turn out to be manic depressive or depressed like much of my mother's family and that it made me very scared to have children. I told him that this was something I should have sought help for then, but I didn't really understand the impact on me at the time. Then, when my sister (who is manic depressive like my mother)had children and went off her medication, I spent a great deal of time with her and helping out because I was absolutely panicked (and still am concerned) of the impact on these children. I apologized for putting them first before our marriage for so long. And then I cried hard for a really long time. WH told me that he understood and maybe we shouldn't continue with this conversation right now.

We ate dinner and then at about 9:30 pm. WH asked "May I borrow the book on midlife crisis and would you be offended if I decided I needed to go back to my apartment and be by myself". I told him that would be fine. I would rather have him at home with me, but I understood if he needed to be alone. He called when he got back to the apartment to see if I was ok and we said goodnight.

Yesterday afternoon, his therapist asked to see me. I went to his office and Dr. T asked why WH had not ever come back to therapy and how I felt he was doing. Dr. believes that WH was depressed prior to the A and it has gotten worse. Dr. really wants him on medication, but WH is not open to that. I told him I really did not know what I could do because in the past when I raised therapy or medication, WH got either angry or accused me of "pigeon-holing" him with a problem. The Dr. asked me to try (he has also called WH who will not call back) and that he did not care whether WH saw him again, but that he needed to see someone or go on medication or both. I explained that WH's low self esteem made him view any requests from me as negative comments or believing that I thought he had failed somehow. We discussed ways to raise it and both agreed there was no good way to do this with everything that is swirling around in WH's mind right now. Dr. asked me to test the waters and see if there was a ripe time to raise it.

WH called last night and asked me therapy appointment had gone (which was earlier in the day). I told him I found it helpful to have someone help me sort out my thoughts. WH went on to say that he did not find seeing a therapist useful at all and that he didn't have any problems a therapist could help him with anyway. I chose not to express concern about him going again. I said "Well, I think it depends on how you are thinking about therapy. Last year, I was not open to it in the way that I am now". I left it at that.

I am really feeling pretty drained. WH doesn't see a way to bring back intimacy and is also depressed but is not open to any kind of assistance from anyone. I feel very alone.

Hi unsure...

I wish I had a good answer for you on how to get your H to commit because it might provide me with the answer as to how I get my WW to do the same.

She has pretty much the same sentiment it seems. That if it is supposed to happen that it will just hit her some day...Horse Hockey...that's not how people fall in love in the first place and I don't see how they think it can work in this instance.

In reading your post I do think YOU are doing well. That you are doing and saying exactly what you need to at this pont. You can't argue with them and you can't educate them ALl you can really do is take care of yourself and hope the fog lights come on at some point. At least that's my $0.02 and that's how I am relating to my WW, too.

Keep hanging in there...I know it isn't easy and it sure ain't fun...

Good luck

E

Thank you Elad -- By the way, how was your 10th anniversary? Mine is coming up next week and WH hasn't said anything about it. I don't know whether I should suggest something or leave it up to him. Thankfully, if he doesn't want to do anything I have an alumni function and a friend's birthday party I could go to instead so that I don't have to be alone.

How are you doing?

HI Unsureheart,
You are a very wise woman! I believe you are doing everything as you should be. I agree with Elad that WH fog lights have to come on. Continue to be patient, because it will pay off.
I will continue to pray that WS will see that light, and find his way to getting the help he needs and that in turn he will find his way back to you. God Bless you, and give you the strength you need when you don't feel you have any left!
Monika

Thank you Still Waiting. WH called last night at about 11:00 p.m. (I was getting a little discouraged that he had not called). It woke me up, but I didn't mind because I don't sleep as well when he doesn't call sometimes. WH has softened a bit, but is still distant. I thought this morning when I woke up that I need to try and make an appointment with Steve Harley. I had counseled with Jennifer Harley Chalmers back in March, April and May and it was very helpful, but am thinking maybe I could get WH to talk to Steve/he would be more receptive to a man.

Hi unsure

Good to see you hanging in there...

Our 10th was, well, different than the previous nine that's for sure.

We acknowledged (I can't say celebrated) with a nice dinner out. It was WW's idea. She just wanted us to get dressed up and enjoy dinner.

Of course we could not go thru dinner w/o relationship talk...started by her...

I really don't get it...but here is some of what she said...

"I don't want you to give up on us, but I would understand if you did."

"I know you have heard this a million times but I am really trying to work my way thru all this...it's going to take time."

"I need to understand myself and my feelings."

"I love you but I don't feel in love with you." I've only heard that a couple of kajillion times...

"Please, don't give up."

Here's the best one...all through this we have talked about divorce, though neither of us has filed but it has been a topic of conversation. So at dinner she asks if it would be possible for us to take a 2nd honeymoon....

WTF is up with that? I told her I think we needed to be a bit more committed than we are to be even TALKING about a 2nd honeymoon...

Hellooooo!!!!

Anyway, the night ended with a kiss...

Like you, it has beeen a long time since SF or any intimacy...

A few weeks ago she asked if I thought we should have SF just to see how we feel....

I said no, not without some emotional attachment here.

Yes, I do know I am a guy and that's not suppposed to matter to us...but don't believe everything you hear <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

As for the 10th...I did send her an "I'm thinking of you card" to tell her the date would always be special to me. No gifts...oh, and no card from her either...

Anyway...she is headed to a religous retreat this weekend...I hope it helps to lift some of th efog, but you know I have been hoping for that for a long time...

That's my update...

Take care,

E

Elad -- Overall the anniversary dinner sounded pretty good (at least she's talking about a second honeymoon and SF <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). Your WW's other comments could have been a tape recording out of my WH's mouth.

On the SF comment, I know you would like an emotional commitment before you jump into bed with your WW, however, I will pass along what my therapist told me on Monday. When I explained the comments I had been getting from WH such as "I don't know if I can get that spark back" "I don't think I can ever be intimate again", etc etc, the therapist told me that it is very likely that WH is feeling so guilty that he cannot imagine being intimate but that if the opportunity arises we should try because making that connection again could be very helpful. My fear of course is first, possible rejection. Second, it is that it will not be the kind of epiphanal sexual experience that I imagine (and unfortunately saw the correspondence claiming this with OW) WH believes he had/probably had with OW and then WH will just say "See, I told you".

I don't know what to tell you. The second honeymoon comment following on the heels of the "give me time" "I'm confused" statements is (in my mind) proof that there is still some kind of fog moving through her brain. I guess the positive note is that I don't think the fog is in residence in her brain/her statements are inconsistent.

We still have not discussed plans for our anniversary. WH will be out of town for the three days prior so I am not expecting much.

Hope and patience.

Hi Unsure and Elad, wow you guys are in a really tought spot. I have had no contact with my WS and I'm kinda glad after reading what you are all going through.
I have certainly learned and I believe you both have as well, what true love really is. Unconditional. No matter what they have put us through we still love them. The world says "don't be a doormat" "find someone who will treat you right" "What do you want with a guy/girl like that?" In our hearts we know why we are standing and hoping for our S's to turn around. The WS's still don't know what love is, but when they all come out of the fog, wow it's gonna be awesome, when they come to the realization of the love we have for them, they will be blown away! And the 'worlds' heads will turn in awe! Oh how I can't wait for the day we can all be on a new page!
I hope this can bring you both a little encouragement! God Bless! Monika

hi unsureheart-

I would say hang in there (of course.) But also in addition to not LBing, try meeting your husband's needs. Take it slow but try. Perhaps write out for yourself those things that he would like. I know there is a fear of rejection, but face that fear, follow it through to its conclusion. What is the worse that can happen? Sure it sucks and will hurt but perhaps it is worth the risk?

I have to agree with your points on the more contact/time together the better the chance for the spark to start. By trying to meet each other's needs (and not LB) on a regular basis, the feeling of love will return. Some call it "fake it until you make it." Makes sense to me (actions speak louder than words.)

<small>[ September 15, 2002, 02:43 PM: Message edited by: aanast2 ]</small>

It's been a very strange few weeks.

Last Wednesday, WH called me late and work and told me he had to see me that night/could we meet for dinner. I said yes. He called back ten minutes later and said he feels badly for calling me and asking to see me/it isn't right. I asked him why he didn't think it was right. He didn't have an answer.

We met for dinner. He told me he was feeling really awful about work and everything else in his life. I asked whether he thought it was possible that he might be depressed. He said maybe. We went on to enjoy a nice dinner and he went back to his apartment. I asked if he would call me when he got home because I was worried/he was so tired/it's a bit of a drive. He responded "yes, I will call you, but it is not my home."

I had to make a presentation at a conference the next evening and my computer was not functioning properly to make the powerpoint work. WH told me he would drive up and give me one of his laptops and projector. It was a very nice thing to do and was an inconvenience for him (he had to reschedule a meeting) and it deposited many units into my lovebank.

He called three times to see that I made it up to the mountains safely/the weather was pretty wretched. I returned from the conference on a Saturday afternoon and WH said he would be up that night to get the laptop and maybe we could go to dinner. He wound up working until 1:00 a.m. (and I know he was at work b/c he called just about every hour and I could see that it was his office from the caller i.d.) So, I met him the next morning early halfway with the computer and he said he really needed hug and was feeling down. He was on his way out of town for a business trip.

He called Monday night to say "maybe we should do something on Thursday (it's our tenth wedding anniversary). I told him I thought that would be nice. Later in the conversation he said maybe not/he might be out of town. I really did not know when we ended the conversation whether we would or wouldn't do something.

He called and left a message last night that "He would like to see me on Thursday/our anniversary and would do his very best to get back from his trip by 6;00 so that we could go to dinner." He said he would call today, but has not.

I'm trying not to have any expectations for tomorrow (although I am at present baking the crust for a chocolate banana cream pie/his absolute favorite desert). I do feel as if our relationship has improved, but do not get the sense that he is ready to discuss the future or moving home yet.

I think what I will tell him tomorrow is that I still love him and still have hope for our future and leave it at that. I did get him a card about how happiness is not a destination/it's a journey. I'm not trying to be preachy or educate him, but the card really spoke to how I believe he is feeling.

I thought about writing another letter to put in the card about the mistakes I made/acknowledge what I contributed to the state of our marriage pre-A and what I would change in order to make our marriage better/our love stronger. But, I've decided that is probably too much to put on the table right now. I will keep it simple and just try and enjoy having a nice evening out.

It's a little sad for me because one year ago if you had asked what I hoped to be doing on our tenth wedding anniversary, it would have included a weekend away at a retreat in the mountains, hiking, hottubs, good cognac. Maybe for our 11th <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Thank you still waiting and aanast for your thoughts. I always appreciate hearing from you. Which reminds me aanast -- I need to go check your thread before I get that pie crust out of the oven.

USH, I'm glad to hear how things are going, I think you are probably right, pushing too much might scare him off. I hope you guys have a good anniversary and save me a piece of that pie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Well, the best advice I have for you is your own advice to me:

BABYSTEPS

don't push to fast, you're doing well.

Hey he wanted to see you for your anniversary!

Of course, don't get too excited either because their could be a letdown in the future (I hope not, but I try to remember that even if our wayward spouses even partially wanted to work on the M, they know nothing about trying to avoid LBing, so your husband might just naturally do that without realizing the effect it has on your sensitive lovebank.)

take care.

unsure...

The more I read your stories and what your WH says the more I think he and my WW were separated at birth <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

My wife has said many times that her apartment isn't her "home" Yet that is still where she lays her head down at night.

Anyway, this is a note just to let you know that it sounds like you are doing good. I would stick to your plan of keeping things simple...a simple card without the other R talk/baggage sounds approriate right now.

I agree with aanast, that "baby steps" are what we should be looking for.

Michelle Weiner Davis in her Divorce Busting book says this is the best sometimes a BS can expect and not to push but to accept these babay steps for what they are...ie: hopefully moving in the right direction. If you haven't read MWD's book I would recommend it.

As for me...my WW has recently confronted some real issues she has been struggling with not connected to her A but definitely some baggage that she needed to deal with...still very small steps but hopefully steps in the right direction. We'll see.

Hang in there for now...I think you are doing the right things and I think your H is struggling with a lot right now...

I hope you can enjoy your anniversary in some respect...

Take care

E

Going Crazy, Aanast, and Elad -- Thank you for being here. I really appreciate your thoughts.

I'm feeling pretty crabby right now. WH just called and said he didn't think he'd be back in time to have dinner tonight <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> He said he'd call on his way back.

unsure...

How did your anniversary go?

E

I wish I could say the evening went better, but I feel as if it was a prelude to some kind of planB.

WH called at 5:00 p.m. to let me know that he thought he would be back in town in time to have dinner at about 8:00 p.m. I asked whether I should make a reservation somewhere and he said fine, nothing too fancy.

WH showed up at the house at about 7:50 p.m. to pick me up and saw the pie and commented "that looks good".

Dinner was ok. WH spent most of the evening complaining about his boss, his life, etc etc. I did my best to be supportive and not make suggestions on how to improve things.

WH also talked again about taking some time off to "sort out his head". He regularly works 80+ hours a week -- partially because he has a lot to do, partially because he's really bad at delegating responsibility to others, and partially because he uses work to avoid/escape other issues.

I told him that I really hoped he could take that time of because he looked very tired and seemed very unhappy/really needed a break from his job. (This is about the fifth time in the last four months that he has said he is going to try and take time off to "sort out his head" and it has not happened.)

We got home and WH said he didn't think he would have any of the pie now, but maybe he would find some time this weekend to come up and have some.

I have no idea why (maybe pent up emotions), but I burst into tears and had to go outside. It was just too much for me being our 10th anniversary and having him say nothing about it or us or that he cared about me or anything. Who knows, I just broke down.

WH followed me outside --

WH: Why are you crying?

Me: I don't know, I think I'm just about ready to give up hope and I'm really sad.

WH: Silence

WH: What are you doing this weekend?

Me: I'm going to a birthday party tomorrow night and then I have to leave for xx on Sunday.

WH: Maybe I could come talk to you this weekend. I'm so tired.

Me: You are tired and you seem miserable and I cannot understand why you don't want to get some help to get you out of this bad place that you're in (he is depressed and it is much more than withdrawal from an A).

WH: Silence.

WH: Maybe I could pick you up from the birthday party tomorrow night and give you a ride home.

Me: I don't know if that's a great idea because we don't seem to get anywhere with our conversations. I love you and care about you and would do anything for you, but I can't be there to support you indefinitely while you let your life fall apart. It is just too hard to watch someone you love go through this, acknowledge that it's bad, but not seek any help. I just don't know what to do.

WH: I'll call you tomorrow afternoon.

We hugged and he left with the pie -- I told him to take it so that he could have a piece tomorrow before the crust got soggy from the custard.

I truly am at the end of my rope. He is paralyzed by his inability to make any changes in his life. He acknowledges that things "out of control", but cannot seem to take the next step to get any help.

This could go on forever and it really is difficult to sit on the sidelines and watch while somebody destroys themselves. I do not believe he is at risk for killing himself via suicide, but do believe there is a real risk of him killing himself by falling asleep at the wheel, driving drunk, or falling on a climb because he is extremely tired and out of it.

I also believe that staying in a limbo like this where he won't spend much time with me -- although he calls everyday -- and won't let me meet many of his EN's and at the same time cannot understand why his feelings of "being in love" are not returning is crushing both of us. Me because it makes me so sad and hopeless that I am moving forward and he is not. WH because the guilt is consuming him.

I feel like I blew it in some respects last night (didn't stick to my no R talk resolve), but at the same time, the few times I have seen him in the last two weeks he looks awful and sounds in complete despair. I just do not think it is a good idea to go on like this.

Any thoughts?

<small>[ September 20, 2002, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: unsureheart ]</small>

USH, I wish I had some miraculous advice for you, but all I can offer you is my thoughts and cyber hugs. He sounds so much like my WH, they say the same exact thing (I need some time to think). If all they do is "think", with no positive actions, sometimes I think they are going to dig their hole deeper and become more depressed.

I am sure that he will enjoy the pie you made him, he probably just did not think he deserved it.