SC, I have no great words of wisdom for you. I just want you to know that you're in my thoughts and prayers.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Just Learning:
<strong>SC,

Make sure you tell the kids they can come see you any time and how to reach you. You can tell W or leave her a note that there is an appointment with SH, IF she wants to use it to please feel free to do so. I think that last comment will suggest to her that you haven't quit yet.

Remember she doesn't have the plan b letter yet. She doesn't have a clue what your plans are. Are you leaving and filing? Are you leaving and maybe coming back? Are you leaving and coming back when something happens? She doesn't know.

Frankly, I think your last discussion was on point and needed. It is reality time for her,just as it has been for all of these long months.

I will repeat: DON'T WORRY, SHE IS THE ONE WITH THE PROBLEMS. You are not in love with a drug dealer. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Seriously, SC this must play out and it won't play out without pain and tears. You have shed many of yours. Your W is just getting started. Ironically, she controls how many and for how long, so her pain is primarily self-inflicted. If she decides to end A and contact, you are back. If she decides to divorce, it is over. If she decides to continue to sit on the fence, her pain will continue for a long time. It is HER choice not yours.

So move out, move on, and enjoy your children.

God Bless,

JL</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The kids are covered. I still have one last conversation with them before I go, but they are aware of this, have access to me 24/7, and have a key to my hotel, as well as an open invitation.

I guess you're right about that "outburst", I said things I was holding inside for a long time, and although I could have done it better, it wasn't a scary, screaming confrontation either.

I know it's in her hands, and I have to let her make her decisions. I just need to get out of here so I don't risk any more of these, and don't try to educate her anymore...

JL said:

"Seriously, SC this must play out and it won't play out without pain and tears. You have shed many of yours. Your W is just getting started. Ironically, she controls how many and for how long, so her pain is primarily self-inflicted. If she decides to end A and contact, you are back. If she decides to divorce, it is over. If she decides to continue to sit on the fence, her pain will continue for a long time. It is HER choice not yours."

I'm going to frame this, if you don't mind <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

It's so true... I've seen it in my case... she may think she's gotten what she "wants" in the short term... might even tell people she's "happy" after you've left... but it won't be the case... it's a lie that will eventually unravel, like all the rest... and when she realizes that she can't escape her love for you - no matter how much she tries to forget - all those good memories will be there... that's why your Plan A was such a good thing.

Each and every day of Plan B, I grow a stronger and stronger proponent of it and all that is MB!!

You're right JR; I guess I have the "Newbie Plan Ber" jitters, doubts...but in my heart, I know it's the right thing to do. I'm off to my interview!

Well, I'm gone...
Already have my pc set up, (obviously), and starting to settle in.

My younger son helped me move, and he just left a few minutes ago.

When I was going to leave, my W was in the kitchen, so I went in, looked at her and kinda' lamely said "see you around..." she started breaking up, came over, grabbed my hand, held it very tight, looked at me like saying, please, don't go...I said "please don't do that..." then she hugged me tight, gave me a kiss on the cheek. I hugged her back, touched her cheek, and left.

Driving here I was thinking so many things...like what she'd felt before when I'd take off every week for work, probably happy to be able to chat it up with OM unhindered. Like she probably never imagined I'd leave. Like what she was going to feel tonight, having dinner with the kids...without me. I was sayoing to myself, I sure hope she's thinking if it was worth it.

Sadly, I took a perverse pleasure from those thoughts...she's going to suffer...this will be very painful for her. I hope it makes her think! And realize what this has come to!

I'll be around...no curfew anymore!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I guess it's fitting that the first thing I printed after setting up the printer was...my Plan B letter! Couldn't resist! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Hey space,

Very interested response from your WW. Did she respond like this in the past? Was it just the reality of you not being there that did this? I would love my WW to have the same reaction. Any sign of affection or love for me now is tremendously desired. I am almost tempted to do a Plan B just to try to get some response out of her. This crap is terribly difficult to handle.

Please resist the temptation of getting pleasure from her pain of you leaving. Remember we are taking the higher ground here and you are doing this to save your marriage not to watch her grovel at your feet.

BTW: Are you prepared for her to chase you now and to say anything to get you back? Do you have your conditions to resume Plan A laid out on paper in checklist format?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by chameleon:
<strong>Hey space,

Very interested response from your WW. Did she respond like this in the past? Was it just the reality of you not being there that did this? I would love my WW to have the same reaction. Any sign of affection or love for me now is tremendously desired. I am almost tempted to do a Plan B just to try to get some response out of her. This crap is terribly difficult to handle.

Please resist the temptation of getting pleasure from her pain of you leaving. Remember we are taking the higher ground here and you are doing this to save your marriage not to watch her grovel at your feet.

BTW: Are you prepared for her to chase you now and to say anything to get you back? Do you have your conditions to resume Plan A laid out on paper in checklist format?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for your insight C.

Truth be told this is the FIRST TIME since DDay that my W has shown such "love", and since I told her I was leaving (day before yesterday) were the first times SHE HAS INITIATED physical contact, hugs, kisses. So yes, it must be the reaction to my leaving.

I'll resist the temptation to derive any pleasure from my W's pain, if you'll resist the temptation to go to Plan B to get a response from her! LOL!!!

Seriously, though, it is not pleasure and I didn't enjoy it, it's just one of those moments when you say "it serves her right to feel this, it's about time she felt some of the pain she has caused"

Honestly, I am not really prepared for her to "chase" me; I honestly DID NOT think she would react that way, and she hasn't yet, but by her initial reactions, it's possible. I do know that if she does I must be very, very wary and cautious; and I will be.

As for a chacklist, no, I don't have one. I did see something like that way back in some thread, but never thought of doing it. How about posting one or a link to one?

Dear Space:

I have not posted to you before. You are doing well and are getting great advice.

You mentioned you did not have a checklist. I disagree. It is in your Plan B letter. You spell out what W must do to start the rebuild process.
When she meets those you are in Plan A since those changes made in Plan A are permanent right?

I will pray for you and your family, Space.

You are a man to be admired.

Jack

She sent me an e-card! Is it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> or <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ?

Amazing! She has NEVER done that! I have sent her hundreds during Plan A....

This is what it said:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Come walk with me and talk with me. We'll lose ourselves in one another.

I love you very much and I hope these days apart will give us both the clarity we need!!!

I really love you! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Hi SC!

That ecard sounds promising, but do give this some time. (I wish my W had said ILY to me instead of the things she DID say when I left, but I hadn't left on proper plan B terms, I don't think).

One thing you need to remember: GET SLEEP. Don't do what I did and post 200 times in 7 days! I stayed up until at least midnight most nights and got up at 5 most mornings, waking up a lot at night. Wore myself down to a nub.

So, cerfew or no. Get plenty of sleep. How did the interview go?

You need to get her your plan B letter and stablish the NC. She still may think you are just getting out of the house for a couple of days, and then you'll be back and still talk to her and be all lovey dovey.

The card is <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> hehehehe.

Let her keep persuing you, play coy and be hard to get. You have been behind her for a while, now she needs to taste some of her own medicine. She won't know what you are doing, thinking or about to do. She seems to be giving good reception signs, but still don't think she has got anything yet, maybe she is just wishfully thinking you are just bluffing.

Stay strong SC!!!

Space,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'll resist the temptation to derive any pleasure from my W's pain, if you'll resist the temptation to go to Plan B to get a response from her! LOL!!!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LOL LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I am not sure I can resist. I am beginning to think true recovery is only possible if a Plan B is done. I am starting to think. OUCH!! Those wheels up there sure do hurt when I think. LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hey you know my other screen name. I posted to you in the past. Think DL.

THE CHASE IS ON!!!! LOOK OUT FATAL ATTRACTION SYNDROME!!!

Get your check list ready. By checklist I mean list your boundaries or requirements to end the Plan B and begin Plan A/Recovery. Each item on your checklist must be checked in order to take WW back.

My checklists for not going to Plan B are similiar to what they would be to go from Plan B back to Plan A:

1) Marriage counseling is required and first session must be scheduled.
2) No contact agreement. That would mean no contact whatsoever. This one hard for me to demand because my WW works with OM, but it is my list and my marriage.
3) Put that da** ring back on now!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />
4) A comitment to work on us. Which includes all MB principals for recovery and any MC homework.

Not too much to ask. Is it?

Remember that you can not take her back unless she is able to put a check next to EVERYTHING. So be specific (even the MB principals you want her to follow), and be sure of what you want her to do so that you are comfortable with your future with your WW. Many people on this forum took the WW back under conditions and caved under their checklists and are still being burdened by their lack of judgement.

Keep your cool. Prepare for flowers or candy, singing telagrams, phone calls, a nock on the front door <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Enjoy it though. It does sound like great fun to me.

Hey 2L!

I'm going to take it easy; until I'm "officially" in Plan B (after I deliver the letter) we'll see then if/how her reactions change.

For now, I've been getting positive signals all along, from the moment I told her I was leaving, and I have been able to handle them all well, not LBing, but alos not reading too much into them or getting over-enthusiastic. In fact, I'm downright un-enthusiastic about her reactions once she knows what she has to do to get us talking again.

From what she's been telling Steve, she's still WAY, WAY fogged up! "The A is his fault", "It's always HIS feelings, what about MY feelings?", "When I DID end the A a few months back nothing happened, nothing changed", "I will NEVER write that (NC) letter!", "I will NEVER disclose my phone records!", she's convinced I caused the rucus at the prison so they wouldn't let her in, and generally no reconition AT ALL of my Plan A, on the contrary, she still insists that I'm out to get her, that I want to mop the floor with her, that it's always been SC first, when will it be my turn, and on and on....I know; it's fog, but what is it going to take for it to clear?

I didn't sleep too well last night, but that's about par for the course for me; first night in a new bed...always uncomfortable.

The interview went well, but the position was quite a bit over my head, so I don't think it'll pan out...bummer!

<small>[ August 08, 2002, 09:27 AM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

Oops, wanted to add one quick thing. Did you make it perfectly clear to you the conditions you had to take her back? You may want to temporarily break your NC to respond to her love note to emphasize your love for her and what is required to get back together again.

This love chase may not last long if she gets discouraged easily and when she becomes comfortable with being by herself. Protect your feelings here. You do not know her intentions.

The card is both a good sign...and an old tool. She doesn't want to not have all her choices. This is not how she wants things to be. I'm SURE she wants YOU..but she has no idea of the pain she's put you through, she has no idea of the path SHE needs to take to be the kind of wife you need and she's not ready to admit her enourmous part in where things are at. She's still very lost...she just wants to keep a hook in you so that she doesn't lose you as a choice. It's normal...and it also is a sign that she does care! I agree with the others...stay aloof, stay coy...stay mysterious and strong...like someone she'd want to pursue. But there have to be clear boundries with clear expectations as to what it will entail to be a part of your life again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Alostwife:
<strong>You need to get her your plan B letter and stablish the NC. She still may think you are just getting out of the house for a couple of days, and then you'll be back and still talk to her and be all lovey dovey.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, Steve said to wait a few days (about a week) before delivering the letter. I'm going to do it on Sunday. I still have details to take care of that require contact and going to the house, and it's my son's 20th b/day on Friday, so I have to be there...I'm supposed to BBQ for the whole family...I want to do the right thing for my M and my Plan B, but I don't think ruining my son's family get-together (by not going or announcing I'm gone, or something like that) would be fair...touchy

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
The card is <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> hehehehe.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, well...who knows? It WAS a surprise, though!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Let her keep persuing you, play coy and be hard to get. You have been behind her for a while, now she needs to taste some of her own medicine. She won't know what you are doing, thinking or about to do. She seems to be giving good reception signs, but still don't think she has got anything yet, maybe she is just wishfully thinking you are just bluffing.

Stay strong SC!!! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'll be coy, and I'll be good. I just hope it doesn't totally go the other way after I deliver the letter.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by chameleon:
[QB]
Get your check list ready. By checklist I mean list your boundaries or requirements to end the Plan B and begin Plan A/Recovery. Each item on your checklist must be checked in order to take WW back.

My checklists for not going to Plan B are similiar to what they would be to go from Plan B back to Plan A:

1) Marriage counseling is required and first session must be scheduled.
2) No contact agreement. That would mean no contact whatsoever. This one hard for me to demand because my WW works with OM, but it is my list and my marriage.
3) Put that da** ring back on now!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />
4) A comitment to work on us. Which includes all MB principals for recovery and any MC homework.

Not too much to ask. Is it?

Remember that you can not take her back unless she is able to put a check next to EVERYTHING. So be specific (even the MB principals you want her to follow), and be sure of what you want her to do so that you are comfortable with your future with your WW. Many people on this forum took the WW back under conditions and caved under their checklists and are still being burdened by their lack of judgement.
QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was one of those people. TWICE!. I did this. I didn't make a plan. I didn't say you have to do these things to come back. I let him talk me into he couldn't written a NO CONTACT letter as she had too many friends at work, etc.

I thought he needed to go through Withdrawal, I told him I be there for him, I cry with him.

Everything I did was wrong, in this regard. I am the major conflict avoider and I let him walk all over me till he got everything he wanted & then he left. Well, it wasn't quite that bad, he really almost lost his mind over this, before he finally jumped off the fence & went to live with the OW.

For recovery to work after Plan B, I think especially, you have to have PLan & STeve will help you with one. However, your W is a long ways from there. Her actions look good but keep it all with a grain of salt.

Good Luck

So, did you respond to the e-card?

If you had already given the letter, you shouldn't respond at all. But since you haven't, perhaps a simple "thanks for the card. I love you too."

PLEASE don't read too much into the e-card, or other loving gestures. Professional fence-sitters are SMOOOOOTHHHHHH.... you listed all the things she's NOT willing to do to prove her commitment (all the things she's been telling Steve)... she just wants the best of all worlds, and it can't work that way for you. She KNOWS what you need from her, and if she's not sure, she has books and Steve to refer to for information.

Spacey, you've given her plenty of Plan A time to come around in a comfortable environment - your loving, encouraging, accepting Plan A... she's afraid to give that up and step up to the plate. She doesn't want to lose you... she just has to figure out in her head if she's willing to do the work necessary. WE know you're WORTH it... but she is SO foggy, she can't see it.

Hang in there. I think you're doing fine. Stay cool with her loving gestures for now... don't be rude, but don't go running to her...

When are you going to give the letter?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by chameleon:
<strong>Space,
...I am not sure I can resist. I am beginning to think true recovery is only possible if a Plan B is done. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, there are many here who believe that if the A does not end immediately after DDay, we end up having to go to Plan B to attmpt recovery. I am pretty much in that camp because when they are THIS adamant about continuing the A, and this fogged, there's little chance of the A ending quickly enough for us to survive in Plan A.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Hey you know my other screen name. I posted to you in the past. Think DL.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh yes...you can tell me that story via email if you'd like!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
THE CHASE IS ON!!!! LOOK OUT FATAL ATTRACTION SYNDROME!!!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm hoping for the first part, would dread the second!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Get your check list ready. By checklist I mean list your boundaries or requirements to end the Plan B and begin Plan A/Recovery. Each item on your checklist must be checked in order to take WW back.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, it's spelled out in the Plan B letter; at least the key items...everything else is somewhat negotiable, I mean POJA'd.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Keep your cool. Prepare for flowers or candy, singing telagrams, phone calls, a nock on the front door <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Enjoy it though. It does sound like great fun to me. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh geez! I DO NOT know what I would do if she came to the door...