Hi folks, haven't posted in a while, mostly because things have been going pretty well. Summary: dday 8 months ago, no contact observed by ww, m counseling going well, relationship going well, so what's the problem?

My personal therapist says that the amount of time and energy I still spend thinking about this is attributable to a feeling of "vulnerability." In his words its kind of like a preoccupation one has in the aftermath any trauma where you are trying to make sure it won't happen again and the normal way people do this is to go over repeatedly looking for greater insight. The conflict is with the MC who basically says, get over it, she knows how much she hurt you, bringing it up or asking questions only drags her down and your relationship with it. My therapist on the other hand says I have to find a way to address the vulnerability issue, a better way than thinking about it all day, and that to do so I have to share my feelings. The WS position I think is "I love you, you know that and I wouldn't do this again, so it insults me or annoys me when you feel vulnerable." I think well, you loved me before and that didn't stop you, so what is different about you now, please tell and maybe I won't feel so vulnerable and I'll be able to think about something else and move on like you want me to." Specific things I have not heard that would help I think are, feelings of some anger toward the other person, feelings that he is not a good guy, some realization that she was taken advantage of, some wiser now see how I have learned stuff. Instead I get, it was all my doing I accept full responsibility, I beguiled him, he was innocent, etc. Admirable in some ways but.....

Another sticking point is her expressed need to have some sort of conversation with OM because it ended so abruptly and she wants to apologize and be able to go the supermarket like a normal person without having to slink around avoiding him. She says she feels shame and embarassment and just wants to be "normal" and put it behind us for good, that she feels she can't ever get over it finally without some peace pipe smoking or something. She says it is being kept in the forefront as long as she feels so uncomfortble. She promised that if she ever felt a compulsion
to do this she would call me first. I of course would say please don't, but since OM was a "friend" I too feel like it might be theraputic to have a sort of let bygones be bygones moment at some point.

Anyway, there are lot of larger problems to have and I am grateful for the distance we have traveled, helped mightily by your counsel and support in the past. Any more thoughts ?

Thanks,
Jack 218

I read somewhere a good way to deal with your need for information and her need to not be bombarded with questions all the time would be to set aside an hour a week specifically in which you can ask all the questions you need, she will answer all honestly and openly, and at the end of that hour you move on and don't dwell on it for the rest of the week. The reason behind this was that it puts the WS at ease that the questions will not be non-stop every day all day all week etc... There is a time limit at which point they will get to move on without worry they will get sideswiped at some point. And the BS gets the questions they long to ask, answered.

I also know what your wife is asking for with the final closure talk. When things are just left abruptly sometimes it's hard to let go of the thoughts of the other person. Don't worry about her lack of anger at him. She probably IS but doesn't feel she deserves to be. I was for a while...but pretty much only when I was still blame shifting. As soon as I took the responsibility for my actions...there was no reason for anger at the OM any longer. He was weak and selfish and made a mistake...no different than myself. Our OM was a lifetime friend of my H's and I had known him as long as I'd known my H (almost 10 years at the time it all started).

Hi, Jack - nice to hear from you again. Sounds like you're pretty much in the same place I was a few weeks ago with the closure thing. Funny thing about closure. To me, it's like a door slamming shut. Closure. Over. To my wife, it's a process. She had a couple short conversations with OM to more or less set up the "closure" meeting. Sheesh! End it already, will ya'?

Like your wife, mine felt a strong need to have a final, "end all", face-to face conversation because the A (a long one) ended so abruptly and she felt like things were unfinished. I was adamantly opposed to it, suggesting that the same thing could be accomplished over the phone or by e-mail, letter, whatever. Let's compromise - anything but in person. Well, I lost that one.

They met at a coffee shop, walked around and talked for about 45 minutes. She came home, told me what they talked about (or at least as much as she wanted to tell me), and that was that. She said everything was over. I got a letter from OM (a former friend, as in your case) the next day, saying since he was dealing with closure with my wife, he thought he'd try the same with me. Apologized to me, said he admired how I handled the mess they caused, he's a changed man because of my example, etc. Blah, blah, blah - I really wasn't interested.

All in all, I must say that things have been better since. I think my wife feels better because she was able to have some control over how she wanted to end it once and for all. I had to acknowledge in my own mind that my wife is an intelligent woman who knows that the survival of our marriage depends heavily on her cutting all ties with OM, and that she is too smart to fall into any kind of trap again.

Based on my experience, my advice would be to let her do what she feels she needs to. Otherwise, she will feel resentment toward you for not trusting her enough to make things right again in her own way. If she's sincere, and you are able to discuss it with her ahead of time and let her know you are trusting her with this situation, it'll probably go OK. If things turn out the way they did for us, it will speed up the recovery process.

The bottom line is, she's going to do what she wants to do anyway, right? So it may work out better if she feels you are being trusting and not antagonistic about it. In retrospect, I wish I had approached our situation in that fashion - would have been a lot less stressful for both of us.

I have finally come to the point where I know I need to "get over it." I have to let it fade away. I just don't want to have my wife or MC or anyone else TELL me to "get over it." Don't want to hear it. But I know in my gut that I have to. And I will.

This may be the last hurdle, Jack. If your wife can finally cut the cord with OM and feel like she has at least some of her dignity intact, that will probably bode well for your continued recovery. She'll be able to step back and understand what REAL love is all about, the kind of love you have for her. Not some temporary, false fantasy that vaporizes under the bright light of truth.

I'll be praying for both of you. The end of your nightmare may well be on the horizon!

Thank you both for your thoughts. Shattered, I am so struck by the similarity of our situations, we are together for 33 years married for 24, OM was good friend etc. I think you are certainly more magnanimous than I and maybe more secure. I take your advice very seriously and in my heart am leaning that way. Do you think I should attempt to negotiate such a meeting in any way, i.e. length , place , time of day, telephone or in person ? etc, ? Should I ask her to please carry any messages for me, i.e. that I loved the guy like a brother, that I was devastated by the lack of an apology ? Should I insist on her telling him what she has now told me, that she realizes it was not love but an infatuation ? And how did you deal with the fact that her desires evidence a continued caring of some sort as opposed to the disinterest I so fervently desire ? Aren't you troubled by the fear that instead of viewing the whole thing as a pernicious wrong with a bad actor that she wants to cling to a feeling that it was just two lonely souls sharing something beautiful and tender that she know was wrong but will always treasure in some fashion, yeccccch! And of course why isn't better for us both to have this meeting, after all it was a three party transaction, shouldn't we all have that cup of coffee ?

Jack

Jack -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think you are certainly more magnanimous than I and maybe more secure. I take your advice very seriously and in my heart am leaning that way. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wish I was as you describe above, but I'm afraid I fall way short. There are a few details of their meeting you should know.

She told me when and where they were meeting. About a half hour before they were to meet, I saw OM's car at the store, and somehow got it in my head that he was buying her flowers, gifts, etc. I snapped, and ended up driving to where they were going to be. Got out of my car, walked around a while, forgot where I parked, went looking for car, found it, drove home. I honestly have know idea what I would have done had I run into them!

Well, I got home, W was already there. Turns out she saw me as she was going back to her car. Needless to say, I was really embarrassed, and pled temporary insanity. She pretty much let me off the hook with that one.

As far as the advice I offerred, that's what I wish I HAD done instead. I didn't handle it too well, but, then again, I have been burned before. D-day #2 was a very intimate phone call that I recorded when I was out of town to pick up my youngest from college. Devastating to say the least, so I was more than tentative about another opportunity for them to say whatever they were going to say to each other. But by the time of their "closure" meeting, my wife had begun to see OM and their R for what it was - a shallow pretention of a "special" bond between them, and instead a shameful, hurtful, manipulative existence that was doomed from the start.

I threw the 3-way meeting idea out there, but my wife wasn't sure how I'd handle it. And she was probably right. Although I have been betrayed by my wife as well, and since I want to continue in a relationship with her, I have directed most of my disgust and anger in OM's direction. According to my W, OM was the aggressor, and I can believe that, based on his history. I haven't spoken with him since this A came to light, mainly because I didn't want to say or do anything that I'd regret later. I think I'm still too bitter to meet with him, even though he expressed an interest in doing so. I'm working hard on forgiveness, but I have a ways to go yet.

As far as having your wife deliver OM some kind of message, that's probably best handled by you directly when/if you feel like you're ready. My W did tell him some things about how I felt, but she did that on her own.

Another thing that makes our situation different is that OM is moving away - maybe even by this weekend. Believe me, the champagne is already chilled! So, in our case, closure for my wife was easier for me to deal with knowing that he would be leaving the area. And I still didn't handle it too well! I know full well that having the OM still "out there" around town makes this more difficult for you.

I guess you need to go with your gut, Jack. From your previous posts, I recall you as a man with good instincts and insightful advice. So figure out what you might say to someone else in your situation, and go with that. If your wife handles it the way mine has so far, it will accelerate your recovery and get your M back closer to what it was/should be.

We're all here for you if you need us. Hope all goes well from here on out.

Thanks again, I guess I have to mull it for a while, maybe put it on the table with the counselor and get him to "moderate" the discussion. My own therapist I think had an insightful point when he said that my task and goal is to feel less vulnerable and that I should assess choices on the basis of whether they will lead to this goal. In one sense I would think that it might be useful to take this newly rebuilt marriage out for a test run so to speak, see how it stands up to the presence of the OM, see if my W can look in the eyes of the devil and say "you don't have any power over me anymore." How can I ever feel less vulnerable if I don't give her the opportunity to show what she is made of like going to a party where everyone is smoking after you've quit and never lighting up? If someone is going to fold eventually, how safe can you ever be?

But the problem for me is that I see ema's as beginning with the sharing of feelings, the giving of emotional support, and giving rise to the caring and and eventually feelings of intimacy. Wouldn't a conversation with the OM at this point fit that criteria ? Isn't the likely outcome a mutual sense of warmth and commiseration for having shared a life altering experience ?

Jack

Jack - I guess it all depends on how your wife approaches this whole thing. In our case, W did it with the expressed intent of closing the book on everything. She assured me beforehand that after their meeting, everything would be over. She repeated that afterward, and also in the presence of our MC.

As far as I can tell, she's held true to her word. Also no contact from OM that I know of. Again, he's getting ready to move away, so perhaps he is truly letting go also so he can get on with his life. The vulnerability thing is an issue for me, too. I was pretty fragile before, feeling stronger and more in control now, though.

Can your wife agree to be somewhat business-like in her approach to this, and keep the emotional aspect in the past where it belongs? If she commits to that, maybe you can give her a shot to prove herself to you. She might need to prove it to herself as well. If she won't agree to that, I guess you know where things really are. As you said, a test run may work. At least you would have a better idea of how things might go if they happened to have a future encounter at the store or something.

As you well know, none of this stuff is easy. You've made good progress. You know...I was going to say you know your wife - until I realized that we only thought we knew our wives!! Oh, well.

Try to keep this closure issue on the intellectual/common sense/instinctive level, and leave the emotions out of it as much as you can. Demands on her to not follow through probably aren't going to work, so maybe she'll respond positively if she sees you as a partner in this thing. But only if this is to say "goodbye" once and for all, in a public place, for a specific and short time period. Those aspects have to be non-negotiable. If she balks at those, she's not ready yet.

Keep us posted, and take it slow and measured so you understand completely where each other is coming from.

Dave

<small>[ August 08, 2002, 07:56 PM: Message edited by: shattered in SF ]</small>

Same here. At our last conversation I had no interest in renewing any relationship with the OM. I knew in my HEAD it had been based on fantasy and there was no way we could actually have the life we'd planned together. The last conversation was for closure, to offer apology and try to make peace. I knew he was very hurt by all of this too and while he might have moreso deserved what he got...it's not in my nature to be cruel and leave others in pain, especially when it's partly MY FAULT! By allowing me to atleast apologize I was better able to move on...whether he accepted it or not.

Thanks for the advice, been out all weekend and just logged in to check the site. W is not pushing the idea of a meeting so I am still mulling. One fear I have is that the advertised purposes may not be real. There was a day after dday phone call during which mutual apologies were exchanged and OM has new live in girlfriend, so why rehash it ? My fear and insecurity is that what W seeks is really to see the old ardor once again, in other words to feel that she is not simply forgotten and is still "significant" not simply discarded. What bugs me is that this taps into the attraction of ema's in the first place, the sensational feeling that someone loves me and wants me, not just my bias husband of 25 years whose love I take for granted, and that I can have an self validating impact on another person. I think she misses that, who would not ?

Jack

I am not in recovery, far from it. However, in several posts I read today, I found the common thread of the WS wanting to end it on their own terms so there is no resentment. My WH keeps saying this over and over. How long do you wait and do you believe them?

RNROSCOE_

I think you need a first step at a minimum to reconcile and save the marriage, later as a part of that you can begin to consider what if anything should be done regrading the third party. I recommend Retrouvaille and or counseling right away to get you on the road to recovery. As the folks here will all tell you it can most definitely be done. Do the reading too, the booklists are long and valuable resources to help you. I was helped and continue to be helped by the kind people here at this site.

Jack