Here's an update - many of you may not remember me.

It's been 1 yr since my PA was made known to both spouses - OW moved 2000 miles away 6 mos. ago - no contact since she left, at my insistence and her agreement - until she called last week - a moment of weakness, she said. Threw me into a tailspin - the lack of contact hasn't made the feelings go away at all - I still think about her often and miss her every day - the phone call only crystalized for me how attached I still am.

We both agreed to no contact, knowing that all it would do is reconnect us and we both decided to not be connected and to work on our marriages. I don't know how hers is going - I didn't ask when she called - I really didn's say much more than I'm ok and things are pretty much where they were when she moved away 6 mos. ago.

Here is my struggle - I have been working on my marriage now for 12 mos. (6 mos. without any "intrusions") - we went to csling immediately - realized that we both needed individual counseling to work on some issues that we needed to deal with on our own - then come together. Well, I've continued weekly counseling since and my wife has stopped completely and we aren't going together either. My major issue is her lack of intitative and action in our relationship - I am always the do-er, she is the follower. She is very dependent upon me for a lot of things, emotional, financial, etc. Our couples cslr pointed out that our relationship is mostly parent-child, with me as the parent and her as the child - we need to relate on an adult to adult basis. Aside from me dragging my wife to csling, she is clearly not going to get in and deal with her own issues, or insist that we face ours together - that leaves me feeling like she doesn't care about me or us - the very rift that started me looking around for someone else - and I found the kind of person that would be a part of a more healthy relationship - I made the mistake of crossing the line and having the affair with that person. I know that is wrong and am doing what I can to alleviate the pain I have inflicted - but what about those basic issues that are still there? If I do nothing I will no doubt start wanting to look elsewhere again - and I don't want to go there - I will give my wife the courtesy of leaving and divorcing her before I go behind her back and hurt her like I did. I'm not about that, really.

My other choice is to push her and prod her into csling and to tell her I'm not happy and that has resulted in her getting very defensive (one issue our couples cslr tried to get us to address - but my wife gave up on it - and as a result, so have I) - if I do that, it reinforces the nature of the relationship I am so frustrated with - I'm the parent "telling" her what she has to do - she is the rebellious, stubborn child who doesn't want to.

I have two great kids and I want to stay married - but I want a healthy happy realtionship too.

Can anyone help me?

another question if anyone out there can help...

I've realized, with this site and my cslrs help, that a huge reason for my straying was that I was unfulfilled emotionally (emotional needs), and that my wife didn't seem to care - anytime I brought up something, I was the bad guy for being negative - If I just kept my mouth shut, well, everything would be okay - the "emporer's new clothes" look great - but we know he is really naked! - my wife's family history is to severely stuff any emotion, any desire, and thereby she and her siblings never learned to take intitiative, to take care of themselves or anyone else emotionally - just to live in denial - Ignorance of your problems is Bliss - something like that.

Well, this attitude lead me to feel distant and uncared for by my W, and it felt to me like she didn't want to be an equal partner in any of the things I needed help, support or encouragement with - likewise, I felt completely inadequate in helping her address problems or issues, because she didn't have any (or so she thought - she lives in denial, remember) - I really felt like she didn't love me, at least in a way that made sense to me - sure she loved me like a member of the family, she truly is a sweet, kind , considerate person - but it's truly only on the surface - beneath, there is no depth - it is merely politeness, not a deep abiding love that comples her to act the way she does. (By the way, these are all things we started to address in cslin, but she has avoided further csling - I think she doesn't want to face these deep issues - too scary maybe - even though I have told her I would be there with her to go through them - I told her that before and after the A.

Anyway, I think I felt unloved to the point that I was lonely and starving for love - and that led me to the trap of an A - of course the OW is a very driven, motivated, outspoken person - the type I work much better with. since the A ended 6 mos. ago and we've had no contact since - except for the call a couple of weeks ago - my question is this...

I realize the OW used me to a great deal - if she truly wanted to be with me, she would be - but I think she used me to get her H off the dime and pay more attention to her... that is my take...

But...

Though I was hurt both by my W and by the OW - why is it that my love feelings for my W are not returning as we try to rebuild our M - and my feelings for the OW are still strong? Does anyone see how ludicrous this is? I know it is, but my feelings don't seem to follow logical processes.

What is going on in my head? HELP!!!!

Well, after reading your thread, maybe you should just get a divorce. Looks like you want to do that anyway. You have made your wife sound like she is nothing but a problem and just has too many faults, and you have carried the whole relationship, etc. etc. You are the only one trying, you are the only one counseling, and she is the only one with problems.....

Now for what I really think... You are a very critical person.. No wonder she is shut off.... How can she possibly measure up to someone as wonderful as you....

Think about it!!!! I wonder what you would think if she talked about you and your affair and how much you hurt her DEEP within her being. How would you feel if she was talking about you behind your back, and was telling people that you were controlling, and you treated her like a child, and you thought you knew it all.. etc. etc.

The answer is within you, and that is a fact.
I think you dont feel loved because you dont love yourself..

So, divorce her, go be with the other woman, and then you should be happy. But if you want advise on how you can get your WIFE to see the light, I have no idea....

And on top of that you are complaining about her not loving you, and yet admit that your loving feelings for her arent there... ???????

So, you can get mad at me now and think I am being hard on you, or you can ask yourself if what I said has any truth to it..

Okay - there is some truth in what you say - I do have faults - everyone does - I'm not trying to portray myself as perfect - just someone who tried everything I could think of before the A - and am trying now - but with no feedback from my W - what do you suggest?

Sure, you can rip me and tell me how awful I am - but I was looking for CONSTRUCTIVE criticism - not just to be ripped.

But I'm sure you have your reasons - I'm sure I sound like every other uncaring WS here - but don't take it out on me - how about one constructive thought about what I can do to save my marriage.

I don't want to be with the OW - that isn't an option and it isn't what I want - just because the feelings are still there doesn't mean I want to dump my life and start all over again with her - I don't want to do that - but the fact that the feelings aren't going away confuses me - after all, they "went away" for my W after I perceived her to have hurt me (I know she didn't intentionally hurt me - I was trying to explain how I got to where I am) - so why don't the feelings die for the OW after she clearly chose to move away with her H and leave me behind? Am I just a lovesick idiot? - you don't have to answer that last question KeepMvn4wrd.

Hopeless,

I do have an idea. Plan A is supposed to be for the BS to win back the WS, but it works pretty good the other way around too. Most spouses, like you feel bankrupt and unlove when they get here. Most of the time their needs have not been met for a long time. And most people ask how they can change their spouses. We can't.

We can't change our spouses, but can we can change ourselves and very often, that is the impetus to get the ball rolling....and make our spouses WANT to change. I know it has been six months since contact....but because you and your wife haven't made much progress, it's still easy to romanticize your OW. After all, you never had to realy LIVE with her lol. She may snore and pick her nose for all you know...but you don't. Your relationship has never had to face the test of time, but your marriage has...and that can remove the luster without alot of work.

If you want your wife to change...and only she can do it...then the change must start with you. Start being a good husband who wants to fulfill her needs...if you are lucky, that will encourage her instead of alienate her. She will start to fall in love with you, and she will in turn want to fulfill YOUR needs...and then you may fall in love with her.

It is a process....sometimes a LOOOOOONG process. Don't give up yet, though I know it is discouraging. Be patient...it took a long time to get where you are...and it will change just as slowly. Keep your chin up.

When it's no longer possible for you, then consider Plan B to shock her into taking you seriously....but I don't think you are there yet.

Good luck

"the very rift that started me looking around for someone else - and I found the kind of person that would be a part of a more healthy relationship."

Well, think about what you wrote here. You "started looking around" for someone else (while you were still married) because your marriage was unsatisfactory. What happened to your vows? Did you not vow to God, to your bride, to all the family members and mostly TO YOURSELF "for better or for worse"? When you decided to look around for something better ... you sacrificed something special about yourself. You sacrificed your word and your honor.

Now look at the rest of what you wrote .... you found the kind of person who would be a partner in a more healthy relationship. But wait .... if you are looking around for a more healthy relationship ... aren't YOU going to be a part of that relationship's healthy balance? What do you bring to the "new and healthier" relationship? .... You cannot bring your word of honor ... you sacrificed that, remember? And, for that matter ... this partner who is "capable of a healthier relationship" ... didn't she ALSO dump her vows as well?

How healthy is a relationship likely to be between two people capable of betraying themselves by breaking the vows they swore?

Dishonest people do not make good relationship partners.

This appears to be two people incapable of dealing with relationship woes ... not two relationship-healthy or relationship-smart people.

What is it about keeping your vow that is difficult for you? .... .... Please do not answer this question in any way that describes characteristics of your wife. I am asking YOU about YOU.

Please Please Please answer this question like this ....

This is the part of ME that makes keeping my vows difficult ..... and then go for the deepest part of yourself. (And leave your W and the OW out of it)

Blessings rain upon you!

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ August 08, 2002, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

oops! I almost forgot this:

"OW phoned me at work 7/26/02"

Are you NOW a man of honor who sincerely wants to improve his marriage ... and to build intimacy with his wife? (I hope so !! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

If you are ... you will tell your wife this call came in ... and you will share with her what was said. And you will share with her your confusion.

That is how intimacy works. It is scary. Do you have the juevos? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Take care

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ August 08, 2002, 10:39 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Thanks Starfish - I will try that - what is hard for me is that when I got to the point of hopelessness and lonliness before the A - I felt I had up to that point tried to be the man she wanted/needed and what crushed me was that she did not respond the way you expect she will if I start trying to do that now - you know, once burned, twice shy - but I guess I need some courage in that regard.

Pepper - good questions: first of all you are right - me and the OW had a serious flaw as the foundation of our relationship - the dishonesty and disregard of our word and honor - what I meant about compatability was mostly interpersonal relationship traits we share - the ones I wish my W would learn - and according to our cslrs - they ARE learnable skills - she is just choosing not to learn them - that hurts me - it shows she doesn't want to try whatever it takes to save our M - maybe she doesn't - maybe I screwed it up too badly with the A - I wouldn't blame her - but if that is the case - I wish she would say it rather than "punish me" (the way Hartley descirbes it).

As for your question: what is it about me that keeps me from honoring my vows, etc.? -damn that is a tough one - but the right one to ask...

One thing that comes to mind is I was a wimp and couldn't handle the lonliness and pain I felt based upon my (mis)perceptions and conclusions I drew about what my W was saying by her actions - those were MY OWN interpretations and I allowed myself to wallow in self pity - poor me, my W doesn't love me - and the ensuing pain of rejection (albeit percieved rejection) I just decided to relieve that pain with an A instead of another way - actually, I don't know another way - I was talking with other husbands and they provided no helpful insight - when the A happened - the C we had been seeing was not surprised based upon the issues we had brought to him - I don't know Pepper - I just was so lonely and in pain and like a drunk or drug addict, chose the wrong way to relieve myself of that pain - and like a drunk or drug addict who would steal money from their own kids, or sell their bodies for someone else's pleasure, morals and ethics just seem to disappear when it comes to soothing the pain...

I'm sure their are other issues too, Pepper - but I think you have started me thinking in a way that 3 cslrs, 3 pastors and countless friends have failed to come up with - thank you.

Any other insights are appreciated.

Funny, I just looked at my profile and saw that I first posted exactly one year ago today - I have come a long way in some respects (I was wanting to keep the OW and ditch the W immediately), but woefully gained little ground in others (my feelings for OW and W have changed very little from that time).

Thank you all.

Pepper - as for your other question....

well....

I don't know if I have those juevos - you are right - I must tell her - maybe this cowardice plays into where my difficulties in keeping my word come from - why am I afraid to tell my W - now that I think of it - I am and have been afraid of letting her down, not pleasing her, not being the focus of her undying love - and when I felt I had fallen out of that place - that I couldn't and wasn't fulfilling her - it was then that I felt not good enough - so I had to find someone for whom I was good enough - someone who loved and wanted me - the OW.

How am I doing Pepper?

I'll work on finding those juevos - I have to.

Thanks

hopelessromantic,

I'm a BS almost 7 weeks into recovery, so I won't pretend to be an experienced MB. You said in so many words that your W is having difficulty having a more adult relationship with you...initiative and what not.

I was wondering if its at all possible that your W can't work through her anger about the A to the point where she's motivated enough to begin rebuilding your M? I have to tell you that if this is the case, you can help a lot with that. For a while I saw the pursuit of couseling as my H's job since he's the one who had the A, and wasn't all that motivated to meet the ENs I was neglecting being as hurt and angry as I was, and not really trusting that it was me he wanted at first. His constant reassurance, affection and patience encouraged me to be a more active participant in our recovery. After all, how could I not want to work on M with a man who was so wonderful after everything that had happened?!?

Anyhoo, I also think that "we never believe that such a miracle (feelings for OW) could ever happen twice" and that's why some WSs hang onto OP for so long even though they are fully aware OP is no good for them. My H was VERY reluctant at first to give up something that made him feel so good to repair something that had been bad for so long. I think that's perfectly normal and I don't think you should beat yourself up over it (unless you resume the A) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

Again, I'm a very green MB, so please forgive me if I sound mouthy... but I wish you luck in your recovery.

Danni <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Really a good start !

Keep going .... talk about yourself more and your wife less. (if at all during this stage)

I think you are doing the best you can with what you have at this moment ... and, I am certain you can do better with effort !

Good start .... really more than I anticipated.

Talk more later. OK? Let me know if I am being too hard.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Thanks Danni - you may be onto something about my W not really being motivated to work on what she sees as a dead relationship, thanks to how badly I hurt her.

Let me ask you - how willing would you have been to go to csling before the A happened and your world was devastated? Were you realtively complacent and felt csling was unnecessary? Just for more background, my W had been having anxiety attacks and was depressed for a year or 2 before my A - when I did all I could to help - tried to talk, suggested csling - we went, but she wouldn't open up or face what was causing her to be emotionally and physically out of sorts. When we went to csling - she just redirected everything onto me - these were my issues, she was fine. Ironically it was this cslr that told me after my A that he was not surprised that I had gone that way based upon his observations of my W's inability to deal with the realities of our relationship. And it was her lack of desire, fear, inability - whatever it was - to deal with and work on our relationship that I based my conclusion on that she really didn't love me, want me and that I could do nothing to help her and that she didn't want to have the kind of marriage I wanted to have - after I drew that conclusion and gave up on my marriage in my own mind, well, that is when the pain and lonleiness and feeling worthless kicked in and that is when I turned into the monster I was and had the A.

I'm not saying this to blame my W for what I did - I don't, but I drew conclusions from her actions - or lack of them - and I am afraid that I will end up feeling the way I did before, since my W is really acting in a similar way to how she was before the A - BUT since I know her motives may be different - not that she doesn't care but that she is afraid to trust me and work with me and get over the anger - well, just maybe that will keep me from drawing the wrong conclusion this time - maybe I should attribute her dragging her feet as the result of me hurting her instead of - well, I don't know what caused her to drage her feet pre-A - we never got to deal with her issues since she wouldn't face them. So even if I decide her hesitancy is due to me hurting her, how do I get the thoughts out of my head that there is still something else that is keeping her from being able to be open and intimate with me - the things that kept her from doing it pre-A.

To rephrase it the way Pepper would (rightly) have me say it: I am afraid that my W doesn't want to be close and intimate with me and I am afraid my attempts will be rejected by her as they were in the past - albeit for different reasons this time. But it hurts me to not understand why she wouldn't let me get close to her before - I understand now if it is because I devastated her with the A - and maybe she can't get over that - maybe that is what I need to ask her directly??

Does anyone have some ideas of what or how I should deal with these fears - and deal with my W's reluctance to face things - do I just lay it all out for her - tell her that I am afraid and confused and want to understand her and be close to her - so I ask her if she can ever trust me again - if not, what do I do? if she says yes, but doesn't mean it (i.e. continues to punish me and hold back and not open up) - what do I do then? confront her on it? let it go? I really need help here...

How much of this last post of yours was about analyzing your wife, her motives, her actions or non actions?

YOU are the subject ... talk about you. Differentiate yourself from her.

What about YOU can you improve? Stop discussing your wife. This is a pattern you have established to avoid your own choices/issues.

PepThe Nag <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Pepper - thanks for keeping me on track... again.

You are right, I do drift into "what is wrong with my W" - partly though, I was trying to explain an issue about me:

I am afraid to try and then get hurt again - I was trying to explain (=justify?) why I am afraid, I guess, by telling what happened in the past that hurt me.

That is my biggest wall to get over - my fear of being unfulfilled, rejected, unable to please my W, not being wanted by my W - only someone she is dependent on.

I just don't want to get hurt again - the loneliness is unbearable.

That is my issue - to deal with that pain. For I know I can never be guaranteed to not be hurt by my W - or by any other woman I might seek out if my M doesn't work. No matter what, I have to face that demon...

Any ideas on where to start?

"what is wrong with my W" - partly though, I was trying to explain an issue about me.

Look at this senario:

Let's say you are working on becoming a better father. Do you become a better father by listing "what is wrong" with each kid one-by-one?

Think about this .... I am asking you why THAT might be a not so good method of becoming a better father??????

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ August 09, 2002, 03:03 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

"the loneliness is unbearable"

I bet you my Pez collection that your W is lonely too.

"I just don't want to get hurt again"

The line forms at the back of the room ! LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> There is NO relationship worth having that does not involve the risk of loss and pain. If you don't risk the hurt you will be lonely! THERE is a conundrum for ya ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

NO risk = lonely

My thoughts are this ... HR ... do you love yourself? If you do, what do you love about yourself?

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ August 09, 2002, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Pepper - you are right again - I'm sure she is lonely too - even before the A, I sensed she was depressed, angry and relatively unhappy - going thru the stresses of raising babies from 1990 to 2000, I know she was hurting - that was when I tried to do the right thing - I offered to help - told her I was there for her to vent to, talk to, cry to - she could say anything to me - I begged her to - but she just clammed up....

Okay Pepper, you're saying I need to focus on what I can do to be a better husband - that I need to answer this question:

"What can I do to be a better husband, friend and lover?"

My answer is this: I don't know - I feel like I have tried everything before to no avail - so should I just try the same things I did before? If you want I can recount what I tried, but I'm afraid it will sound to you like another laundry list of my W's shortcomings. But what do you do when you run out of ideas and feel like you've tried everything? I guess that is what I'm looking for on this site - some concrete, specific, detailed approaches that I can try that might work - I know I haven't thought of everything - I'm not that ego-maniacal - but I can't do what I haven't thought of - so I am looking for some other ideas of what I can do to be a better H.

Also, to some extent, my listing of my W's shortcomings is me asking for help in how to deal with what is really only my wife's personality - I am the one who paints them as "shortcomings" - it is my own shortcoming that I don't know how to deal with them. I am telling you all about how my W reacts or behaves in certain ways because I just don't know what I need to do, how I should act or respond - and I think my frustration causes me to focus on them and treat them as "the problem"

THE PROBLEM is that I am frustrated with myself for not being able to accept a perfectly good woman.

That is what I need help with.

Pepper-

as far as your other question: What do I love about myself?

Boy, you just love opening cans of worms don't you?

I know for certain that I derive WAY too much self worth and esteem from whether or not I am loved by a woman whom I love or respect. I know that I measure whether I am loveable by how much I am loved by others.

I know, I know - go ahead and say it....

BIG MISTAKE!!!!!!!!!!!

Any idea of how to break that pattern?

"One thing I love about myself is _____"

Come ON .... you can do it! Just name ONE thing.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Okay...

Here goes...

One thing I love about myself is:

I am very compassionate and caring (my A notwithstanding)