Hi all - <P>I really would like to get your opinion on a development of sort in my saga.<P>I spoke with my sister-in-law this morning. She told me that she ran into my W last week. (Nobody knows where my W lives now since nobody knows the OM. We all safely assume she is living with him though.)<P>My SIL and W have known each other for over 12 years...they are so close to each other they are almost sisters. When this whole situation began, W lived for a few weeks with them. Once W disclosed OM to her brother & SIL, they immediately disapproved. W and her brother got into a big fight - W then left for OM...nobody has seen her since (about 6 weeks).<P>Apparently, W has dropped the ball at work a few times recently as deadlines for a HUGE project she is responsible for were missed (she went to Europe with OM for 10 days when these tasks were due). In addition, W has been receiving collection notices here at home - apparently she is not paying her bills on time either.<P>SIL told me that when she saw W, W gave her the "cold shoulder" and appeared very angry and distant to her. My SIL interpreted this as perhaps W's world is starting to close in on her and W may be starting to realize it.<P>According to SIL, W's unhappiness was apparent. She seemed quite sure that this behavior, coupled with the other pressures W must surely be feeling, may be "the beginning of the end" (SIL's words).<P>Can anyone support this theory or are there other possible explanations? Your opinions are greatly appreciated!

Shattered1,<BR> Although i'm not at your stage yet in my relationship, i think you're right. I don't know your w's responsibility level before this all started, but i and some of my wife's friends don't think she can make it on her own, due to her financial irresponsibility. One of my friends got D about 6 months ago as per his W's desire, and she was immediately unhappy, and wanted to come back. Too late. I personally think it's just a matter of time now before she wants to talk things over. Good luck

Shattered - I have been following your posts, since our timelines with unfaithful wives is about the same. My wife moved out 4 weeks ago, to be with OM more conveniently, after she said "to sort things out". She clicked with him on June 23, as soon there after started the emotional/physical affair. I have felt your pain in your posts and empathize so much. This development could be reality starting to hit her. Just don't get your hopes up to high, because the betrayers have their own rollercoaster on whether they are doing the right thing or not. I also hate the "time" that we are supposed to give to these type of affairs. I hate that I have to share my daughter with her. But, I'm with you on all these feelings we have of not being patient or strong enough at times.

Hi Shattered,<P>Hmmmm does not sound good for your Wife. Will OM step in and save the day on all the bills, her job etc.??? I doubt it since his plate sounds pretty full. I think your W may be starting to see this. Sounds like the realities of life are hitting. I would think OMs wife and children are getting into the picture too. Wait and see.

rik999/izzy/Bonny - <P>Thank you so much for your replies. I just hope you are correct and that her demeanor is an indication of her unhappiness.<P>Since I posted my original message, I've learned some additional things. In an effort to spare my feelings, my SIL left out some details. SIL came over last night to see me for a bit and told me the nature of her meeting with W. SIL works as a designer for home builders. At this time, the Fall Parade of Homes is in effect, and my SIL has designed one of the homes.<P>Apparently, W brought OM to SIL's Parade home when SIL was there. SIL was shocked to say the least since she told W in no uncertain terms that she was not interested in ever meeting her OM. SIL was so angry that she could have spit nails.<P>Even more telling, the builder of the home was there. The builder had no knowledge of who my W or OM were as SIL did not let on. After W and OM left (in his Mercedes), builder mentioned to SIL that he thought the OM was an arrogant, show off (remember OM is rich) flashing his money around. Builder said that he never wants to deal with people like that.<P>SIL said that independent observation confirmed her suspicions regarding OM...that he is arrogant, unlikable, aloof and provincial. What do you think?

shattered1,<P>Seems to be no question that she is coming unglued, and I suspect Bonny is right that the realities of life are starting to kick in. I think rik999 is right too, that it will only be a matter of time before she wants to talk...<P>I wonder if so much of it boils down to a matter of time. For me, it was only 'a matter of time' until the quilt and saddness of what I had done got to me. The pain of the dagger I stabbed into my marriage was bound to ripple out and actually surface. I stopped lieing then. Told my H the whole story.<P>izzy,<BR>Stay tough. I can only imagine what it must feel like to have to wait. I'm still not sure why my H wanted to stay married to me. He had every right to go. He said only that his love for me wasn't 'normal'. I don't really get it, but I am so glad he stayed. I have always said he has shown me great mercy. He could have crushed me like someone would do to a bug on the sidewalk... but instead he picked me up and put me high up in a tree somewhere safe.Crazy.<P>I just want to say you each have good reason to hope that your W's will turn around. I am someone who did..Good luck to you each. I hope you see great rewards in your perseverance. <P>-janet<BR><p>[This message has been edited by rjr #2 (edited September 13, 1999).]

shattered1,<P>Is it uncharateristic for your W to like 'rich' people? I know that sounds strange but what I am getting at is that at least in my case the OM was generally not someone I would have 'normally' been attracted to. There are many reasons for this, but I am wondering in your situation if this is just another strange thing with your W.<P>For example, the Om in my situation was, while he was very smart (learned fast and tested very well on difficult technical exams) he didn't have very good manners. He once got up in the middle of a lunch we were having at a restaurant and left the table without a word. I eventually figured out he went to the mens room. While this might not seem like a big deal it was that type of thing that would in the long term, have driven me nuts. I have always appreciated people with manners. Anyway, all that to illustrate my point that this relationship may be completely 'off center' of all your W used to be.<P>Sorry so long - just thinking..<BR>-janet<p>[This message has been edited by rjr #2 (edited September 13, 1999).]

For those of you hoping your now out of the house ex's will see the error of their ways, I offer an old saying:<P>"When the Lord is working on a rebellious soul, it is a mistake to rush to their aid too early. You may prevent the Lord's work."<P>For those of you (like me) who aren't sure you are religious, I think the saying still works. I substitute "Reality" for "the Lord".<P>In my experience, a previously married person rarely realizes anything until the end of their second relationship. In the case of an adulterous person, they will not be able to consider the morality of anything they have done / are doing until after the relationship fails on it's own. Nothing you can do. If your wife moved out before seeing anything wrong with what she was doing, you will be divorced before she does. There is no doubt she thinks she is in the right and everybody else in wrong. No one will be able to talk her down from that strange cliff she is on. And chances are she will decide to jump before she decides to climb down.<BR>

rjr#2 - <P>Thanks. I get so much out of your posts as an "infidelity veteran". I really appreciate your thoughts and kind sentiments. As far as whether she likes rich people, I can't say for sure. She was raised in a single parent home, probably middle income at best.<P>W has never had an appreciation for saving money for the future. This was one of our MAJOR argument topics. My dream has always been to retire early (I'm an aggressive saver/investor) and she prefers to enjoy the finer things in life today. She had a tendency to break any budget we agreed to if it didn't suit her desire and it would really piss me off.<P>She may be attracted to this rich guy because he buys her things (I assume). At the same time, she is spending money like it's water...something like $15K since June. She does not make that kind of money so sooner or later, it will catch up with her. Maybe being with him is just a rebellion against what she considered a controlling tendency on my part to restrict our expenses?<P>izzy - <P>You know, your situation, Chris(CA123)'s and mine are remarkably similar. In fact, my W left me on Monday June 21 - yours left you on Wednesday June 23. Too wierd. We really need to keep in close communication.

Shattered-<BR>Why was W at Parade of Homes w/OM? Is the Parade of Homes visit like a hobby, etc that she would normally go to? Or is someone looking to by a house? If so, who?<P>I noticed two things about my H's behavior in affairs. <P>1)He became more "cocky" w/me. I have seen many post about how the OP makes you feel about yourself. Maybe that feeling "empowered" him to not "deal w/my s***" anymore. That includes the many practical things that affected our well-being (finances, etc..) <P>2) In line w/nonplused, I believe life has a way of making "adjustments" for you. I have watched my H's world crumble around him when he was involved in affairs. Problem after problem, obstacle after obstacle. He is still, to this day, dealing w/the consequences of situations he created during last affair.<P>I suppose this is one of the benefits of Plan B. As their world crumbles around them, it takes the betrayed out of the equation and forces the betrayer to look at the affair relationship.

Enlightened - <P>I suppose I should have added that my W is also in the interior design business. In fact, her OM is/was a client of hers that was transfered here from Europe. W has a passion about interior design and she loves to go to the Parade homes. That didn't surprise me.<P>What did surprise me, however, was her boldness by bringing OM to the one house where SIL was...even though SIL had no desire to meet OM. I find it interesting that this "cockyness" as you put it seems to be a manifestation affairs.<P>I take it Enlightened that your H's (latest?) affair is now over. You mentioned that he is now dealing with the consequences of his affair. What, may I ask, exactly are some of those consequences? Did he run up a lot on the old charge card that is now at the limit? Did he alienate friends and family and almost ruined his career? I find it interesting that you said that, because all the things I mentioned (and more) are things that my W is losing control of, except she may only starting to become aware of now.<P>Also, what kinds of things were you able to observe that signaled that your H's affairs were indeed crumbling? I will take extreme interest in your answers because I think that W's affair MAY BE starting to crumble...although I shouldn't get my hopes up too much.

Shattered1,<P>I'm glad you see some info you can use in anything I might throw out there. It is sad for me to be a 'veteran' to have done what I did, but if I can help by sharing some of where I was, and it helps, well then great!<P>Yes, I could definately see that she could be seeing someone like that out of a rebellious attitude - definately. If many of your issues revolved around money then it makes sense that she would chose 'something' where money was 'no issue'...<P>You having just brought that up brings to mind all my 'attitudes' during my affair. All of them selfishly based. I think it is the main ingredient in affairs(my opinon). Man, I'll tell you. If there were any way to describe that feeling in my heart/head that screamed like a little kid trying to defend my selfishness. Wow. I was resentful of so much. Everyone's demands on me, resentful because I wasn't happy. All of these things were missed placed, miss directed.<P>Beside not spending enough time together (my H has to work a lot) $ has always been a difficult topic for us also. I tend to be too conservative and my H too liberal with money. So as a balance we set up an 'allowance' with which each person can do whatever they want. This way we controlled the spending but when we did spend it was guilt free. Anyway, you may have done this type of thing too..<P>The sad thing is Shattered, that she just isn't being reasonable right now. That seems like the main thing. She is acting like someone she isn't, probably never was. I know it doesn't make sense. It didn't really make sense to me during my maddness. I always HATED people who cheated. I mean LOATHED them. And there I was finding myself in that same position. Scary.<P>When she eventually looks at herself long and hard, I won't doubt that she hates herself for what she's done. It's just likely the course of things.<P>I'm probably not making tons of sense. I'll try to add later...got to run to a meeting and I have stopped and started this note several times...sorry..<P>back later <BR>-janet

Shattered-<BR>I thought maybe OM was purchasing a love nest or something! Sorry! <P>Yes affair is long over, over a year now. One major consequence was/is financial. Irresponsible spending...takes money to wine and dine...money we don't have. He also alienated family and friends. We had a couple of medical emergencies and he was nowhere to be found, or minimized the emergency aspect so as not to have to "change his plans". I can also remember him telling me many days to not call and "bother" him in the middle of his day. Realized problem wasn't just w/me, he also voiced that to each of his siblings who needed his assistance during this time. <P>Aside from me and kids, his work has suffered the most. His office is in our home, so I can see his work and how he works. He just didn't do it, or only did enough to get by. And it was ALWAYS late. He had a very good relationship w/his boss but even he had to finally write him up. Well, now that they are going through a reorg, out of 3 choices, guess who gets affected. By the way, he was the most tenured. Now floundering around trying to find a place in the organization.<P>In H's case, I believe there was a connection but I don't know that he recognized that at the time. He was feeling to good about that relationship, even w/the consequences. First "known" OW provided me w/clues. She was trying to work both of us. She wanted him to leave me. He wasn't moving fast enough, so she took it upon herself to give me info/clues so I would act. I think the pressure got to him. Although much of what she conveyed to me was only half-true, I was able to point out to him, if nothing else, how devious she was. I suppose he realized she was as "demanding" as I am! He finally ended that one when I made plans for an out-of-state job transfer.<P>My reaction to second "known" and last affair was more of anger for repeating. Circumstances did not allow for my immediate departure as I so desired. So I focused more on myself and setting/reaching my goals in preparation for a life w/o him. In other words, I wasn't as watchful of the dynamics. Also, he had a friend who acted as a conduit for affair and therefore, combined w/prior experience, much was kept from me. Only thing I can recall is when his previous "routine" started to fall back into place. He was more available, the hours were not as long, less unaccounted for spending, return to the fold, so to speak.<P>One thing I noticed that other family and friends noticed is that both "known" affairs affected him physically, both in appearance and medically. My best friend, who met him the same day I did 20 years ago, commented about how bad he looked...like he really looked tired. Somewhat like your SIL noticed.<P>Okay, I'm rambling! I hope this helps.<P>PS. Like rjr is speaking about, "the soup is too hot" Reasoning is probably out of the question right now.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Enlightened (edited September 13, 1999).]

rjr#2 - <P>By "veteran" I mean only that you have been at the MB site helping others for a while...not that you are or ever wanted to be an expert on infidelity. I surely meant no offense!<P>I find it very enlightening that you felt one of the "key" attributes to someone in an affair is selfishness. My W is/was probably one of the most giving, generous people I've ever known pre-affair. However, the selfishness that she brazenly demonstrates everywhere she goes is beyond the pale!! It is so extreme that SIL thought seriously that W could be manic-depressive. Definitely Jekyl/Hyde behavior. SIL is extremely offended at W's behavior.<P>We have tried the "allowance" routing too. W could never adhere to it. She would defend her actions by saying things like, "well, I overspent by $300 this month, I'll just consider it borrowed against next months budget..." Next month would come, and she'd find yet another excuse to overspend. I wanted to tear my hair out.<P>If the affair is indeed crumbling, what do I do? Do I just need to stay out of the way like nonplused inferred or do I need to be proactive in any way? I feel so helpless.<P>Enlightened - <P>Are you in the process of rebuilding your marriage now? I'll pray for you and your H.<P>I find it interesting that what you mentioned as characteristics of the fallout of your H's affair are very much in line with what I'm beginning to observe (from a great distance). Did your H ever move out? If so, how did he/you start the reconciliation process?

Shattered1,<P>No offense taken in the slightest! I was just saying that if any good can come from the mess I made, in my life or in someone elses then I'm happy to share about my experience.<P>All of us can help one another a great deal. Early on people like Broken, Lone Star, and Dunc just to name a couple really helped me see what my H was going through (from your perspective.) it was an amamzing help.<P>I can understand that flip side completely that she is acting on. I felt it in all it's furry in me too. Selfishness is a big monster.<P>I don't know exactly what to tell you as far a what step to take next. She left the house right? Well, if it were a situation where you 'found out' and she were trying to deny it or somehow keep the OM in the loop you'd have to do the plan B thing. But since your situation is that she has chosen to 'run' you may need to wait and just 'be there' for the fall. I just don't know. Usually your instinct is the right way to go. So much of what my H did that helped me through was instinct. He didn't know the MB principles but seemed to follow them anyway.<P>Doctor's appt now...take care friends.<P>Enlightened,<BR>interested also to hear how it is going now for you guys...<P>-janet

Are we rebuilding? Although in hindsight, I wish we had, we never separated and were are still together. I don't know if you call it rebuilding when only one person (me) sees a problem.<P>The separation would have probably expedited things in my case because he continued each time after discovery. And is still unwilling to deal w/issues. I, on the other hand, lost a lot of respect for him after living through his continued deceipt twice. Its one thing to find out you were duped, but to continue after discovery and all the promises really did a number on me. I am learning and understanding more about the withdrawal aspect on this forum, but in his case, I don't think he missed a beat after discovery. In fact, it seems like things heated up because she (at least the first one) tried to speed things along, since I knew.<P>Being separated now, you can probably dispute everything I say, but as I did not experience this, I often wonder if it would not have been better in my case.

Hi all - <P>I really need your help now. I think I misinterpreted W's actions as I outlined in my original post. Unfortunately, I got my hopes up because last night I fell back down into the deep, dark pit of despair. Please help me!!!<P>I got home last night late (I was distributing food at a local soup kitchen...if you want to really feel good about yourself, help the unfortunate in your community. It really helps you get a perspective on your situation). When I got home, I discovered my W had been there during the day. There was a note on the counter that read:<P>"Shattered - I came by to pick up my fall and winter clothes and mail. I would like to talk in the near future. I hope things are well despite the circumstances. W"<P>She went through all the closets and cleaned out her clothes. I was just devastated...I cried for an hour. I felt so violated to for some strange reason...almost like I was burgalarized or something.<P>I honestly felt that W's behavior over the weekend signaled a destabilization of her affair. But the fact that she picked up her fall and winter clothes shot down that theory. I am so down. Can anyone give me some words of encouragement please?

Hi Shattered,<BR> I can see how you feel but you need to hold onto hope. The signs that things were not peachy keen are good ones....however when I was in counseling with Steve H. he said that if they leave they usually try hard to make it work....be prepared for some time to go on...eventually as the good Doc says it will fall apart....you need to sit back and let reality in . She knows you love her and want to work it out right?...she will remember it when things do crumble. I've been in your shoes and my H is back....I was convinced that our marriage was a goner. Try to do things for yourself as you wait and be patient, easier said than done, I know.....Lu

Lu - <P>Thank you so much for your kind and hopeful reply. Today, I'm at my wits end. I have been praying so hard that W will open her eyes and see this deceiver for who he really is for so long now. Yes, my W knows I love her with all my heart (unless she has turned a complete deaf ear to my words). Over the weekend, I included a little note into her stack of mail that read as follows:<P>Dear W,<P>Many years ago, you asked me if my love for you was unconditional.<P>We now both know the answer.<P>I love you W.<P>Shattered<P>I hid the note in the middle of the stack of mail so that she would just happen upon it when sh looked through her mail. So yes, I must believ that she knows I love her very much.<P>Can you share with me a bit about what you and your H experienced? Did he leave you to live with the OW? You said that you were shure your marriage was over...that's exactly how I feel now. If your situation is similar, can you share with me other information Steve Harley told you about spouses who leave? My W lift June 21...almost 3 months ago. She has been incredibly cruel to everyone especially me and her family. Has completely alienated everyone too.<P>I hate just waiting! How did your H's affair end, what were the signals that you saw and how did you begin reconciliation? Lu, I eagerly await your response...

Shattered1,<P>I am sorry about this pain you are feeling now. ..<P>I don't know what to say except I'm sure Lu is right things look dark now but thatdoesn't mean that it won't change.<P>There was a time I couldn't see out of the situation I was in either. Thought I'd always feel trapped and desperate. It just wasn't true.<P>Sorry that waiting is the thing...Do you have kids? that would be harder yet. Well, hang in there today Shattered1, I wish I knew what else to say...be praying for you.<P>-janet