Hey ML;
I think it's perfectly normal to feel what you're feeling. All of us are prone to hurting when things like that happen.

The possibility that he's "going public" is less likely than simple chance, or pressure from OW...don't take that as a given. And perhaps it IS better for more people to know; that tends to make the A feel more wrong to him. Remember, making it public often is the beginning of the end.

I feel for you, since I get the same feelings. I spoke with Steve about that today, asking him why it was that in spite of detaching, Plan A, Plan B, and all of that we still feel so attached, so ready to find ways to "fix" it. And he said that it's natural; we all have the "unconditional desire to be happy", and regardless of the plan, will often feel like being with our WS is still the "ideal" scenario. The comfort, familiarity, and the fear of change triggers these feelings.

You've set the stage, done what you can do (you DID give him the letter, right?); now you need to stay focused on your Plan B and what it will do for you. You can't afford to let things like this derail that. This is for YOU. Stay strong!

oops; double-post

<small>[ September 04, 2002, 01:00 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

SC, Thank you again for your support. You are not only my rock but my life support.
A new chapter in my saga: yesterday I saw my IC. I cried a lot and she said many things to me that made sense. That I am always protecting my H and that I have no one to protect me and that I have to learn to do that. That I was probably upset about the restaurant story because not only did it make the A more real and closer to home ( after all OW came to MY city, but also I realised that my H had not protected me by letting others get to me with that story.

Anyway among other things she said I should tell my H what had happened and tell him how much it hurt me. I was reluctant to talk to my H atb this point but she insisted so I called my H and told him i wanted to talk to him. He was on his way home (his apartment)and said he would be right over. I immediately dtarted about the incident and he told me he knew about it and that he did not care about who knew or who did not. Now this comes from someone who has told only a few people about our being having "marital difficulties" and no one that we are separated. I am the one who told his parents.
When I heard that I kind of lost it for a few seconds but quickly changed my tune and calmly told him it mattered to me because I had been taken by surprise, at work. He told me that it was just people trying to hurt me with gossip and not to pay attention. It was all I could do to stay calm but I managed to.
Then ensued the usual chapter about what did I expect since I had thrown him out he was entitled to see OW and he was really surprised by my reaction since I had asked him to leave and to see OW. This was news to me.
Then followed the blame, blame, blame-game. I could see where this was going i.e nowhere fast and I suddenly stopped him and said why don't we stop this and what can we do to just be friends instead of blaming each other for whatever. I held his hand while I said this and looked him straight in the eyes. My face was close to his and he started to cry. It was very emotional and the conversation after that was calm and he basically told that he is confused, does not know what to do and can't stand living alone.
I told him that that could be changed but he had to want it, that he was in charge of his life not me. He mentioned that he was afraid that he could not live with me because we had grown so far apart and that we always argued and that I always yelled at him and so and so on. I always brought him back to being friends and did not let him steer me back to an argument.
In the end I could see he was exhausted and asked him if he wanted to go upstairs and rest. He agrred and we talked some more, he cried the whole time. I talked about unconditional love and being friends, he said he was sorry that I was hurt by that gossip at work.

This is more babble I know and he certainly did not mention anything about ending his A but I did not expect that.

All right Orchid, SC, hope4 or anyone who has comments, please tell me what you think.

SC, I know Sh told not to get off the plan B wagon. That is also what he told me. Please help me sort all this out.

ML;
I think you did what was right to do. We are not robots or automatons, and sometimes the "Plan" has to be "felxible" to accomodate these things.
Our hearts and minds cannot always be on the same wavelength.

You know I am struggling with the very same thing; do I keep to a strict Plan B, let it work it's magic on me, and hope it works some magic on her? Or do I run to her, hold her and tell her it's going to be OK?
On the one hand, a consistent Plan B seems the way to go; that way they have no doubt that they WILL lose us unless they do what they should. On the other hand, there may be other ways, you mentioned Unconditional Love, and perhaps showing that could be beneficial.
The point is, we don't know, and we'll never really know until it's over, one way or the other, and nobody expects you to know. So don't put that pressure on yourself.

I think it's good that you said what you said, and acted as you acted. You made him reach into his heart, and he found something to cry about...something that maybe he's been trying to repress, hide, run from. That HAS to be good. I'm sure it was good for you; you saw emotions you thought were gone.

In the end, everything happens as it should. And you WILL find happiness one way or the other.

A bientot!

Originally posted by mapleleaf:
<strong>.....so I realised that my H had not protected me by letting others get to me with that story.</strong>

IMHO, this is an important piece of info that will help you settle on your boundaries. His action is stating that your safety is not a priority of his. This means that you need to watch yourself around him also. Wouldn't you do that if it were anyone else?

<strong>.....(IC) she said I should tell my H what had happened and tell him how much it hurt me. I was reluctant to talk to my H atb this point but she insisted </strong>

The IC was correct. What he does with the info is now his business.

<strong>.....he told me he knew about it and that he did not care about who knew or who did not. </strong>

WS babble. He has to say he doesn't care otherwise he wouldn't have done it. He knew he was taking a chance of being seen but his later statements to you show this was babble.

<strong>.....When I heard that I kind of lost it for a few seconds but quickly changed my tune and calmly told him it mattered to me because I had been taken by surprise, at work. </strong>

Your reaction is normal. In fact quite subdued compare so some of us. LOL!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Look at how you were able to catch yourself and take corrective action. You should be proud you had the ability to do that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<strong>.....He told me that it was just people trying to hurt me with gossip and not to pay attention. </strong>

Oh, not ok for others but ok if he slashes at your heart?!?!? My WS said the same thing. Sounded like babble and I told him so.

<strong>.....It was all I could do to stay calm but I managed to.</strong>

Good for you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<strong>.....Then ensued the usual chapter about what did I expect since I had thrown him out he was entitled to see OW and he was really surprised by my reaction since I had asked him to leave and to see OW. This was news to me.
Then followed the blame, blame, blame-game. I could see where this was going i.e nowhere fast</strong>

More babble. Best to avoid it and you did. Good.

<strong>.....and I suddenly stopped him and said why don't we stop this and what can we do to just be friends instead of blaming each other for whatever. I held his hand while I said this and looked him straight in the eyes. </strong>

Good method. You are observant enough to recognize a diaster in the making and even though you may have wanted to move. Looking him in the eye to see his real motive....that is a good method.

<strong>.....My face was close to his and he started to cry. It was very emotional and the conversation after that was calm and he basically told that he is confused, does not know what to do and can't stand living alone.
I told him that that could be changed but he had to want it, that he was in charge of his life not me</strong>

'he started to cry and said he was confused'. This is a good sign. Best to keep him in this confused state. It wears them out and just no fun for the OW. Awh.....do you hear an OW LB coming??!!??!

<strong>..... He mentioned that he was afraid that he could not live with me because we had grown so far apart and that we always argued and that I always yelled at him and so and so on.</strong>

Yea, I would be afraid also. I told my H that I feared his bad attitude but I will still find someone that can help me.

<strong>.....I always brought him back to being friends and did not let him steer me back to an argument.
In the end I could see he was exhausted and asked him if he wanted to go upstairs and rest. He agrred and we talked some more, he cried the whole time. I talked about unconditional love and being friends, he said he was sorry that I was hurt by that gossip at work.</strong>

U done good.

This is more babble .[/QB]

Brace yourself and hold on tight!

<strong>.....I know and he certainly did not mention anything about ending his A but I did not expect that. </strong>

For now this is a given.

You know you have come quite a ways. Keep it up. You will have good days and bad. Keep posting here. It helps some in their personnel recovery.

take care,
L.

<small>[ September 17, 2003, 08:18 AM: Message edited by: still forever hers ]</small>

Orchid,
Thank you so much for your thorough analysis of my post. I know this is babble and I really liked your post on counter babble but there always remains that doubt: what if there was some truth in the middle of the fog talk. I think we are all subject to the gnawing fear that we may be making a mistake. When I see my H crying and confused I know he isn't making it up. On the other hand I know that he is just waffling like he has been doing for years now and it has to end for me AND for him. I also know that he is incapable of making a decision now and maybe never be and that the only solution for me is to extract myself from his mess for my onw sake even if it means a D in the end.

My IC asked me if he was a perfectionist and he is. She said that perfectionists tend to measure sucess by what they have accomplished and not by their emotional sucess. When something happens to them emotionally or if they feel like a failure for one thing (in his case having an A and hurting me) they feel like they have failed in everything and they get very depressed and hopeless. Since my H is chronically depressed in the first place it may accentuate it.

I know H is actually worried that people will think less of him. I asked if there were any more surprises waiting for me and he said he did not know but if people made a comment I should say that we have separated for 3 month (actually it's 2)This is a way to show others that he is not at fault for being with someone else. So he is feeling very guilty and very bad about losing his reputation as a great guy (that's what people always say of him).

So I think all he really cares about is not looking like the bad guy. I threw him out so what else could he do?

SFH,

WOW! what can I say? I am overwhelmed by your compliments. You don't know how happy I was to read your post. I realise how starved for approval I am these days. I often feel that nothing is going for me and that I failed at what mattered to me most: my fairy tale marriage.

The hardest thing for me is to let go of the dream I was living. It was just too good to be true I guess.

Thank you again and I wish the best in the future.

After my H left the other evening I emailed the definition of unconditional love to him because I felt I had not really done it justice when I exlained it to him.
This evening I got the following email from him:

"Hello X:
It was good to read your email. I hope for a simple time when we could be together and be content just feeling fufilled and at ease with one another.
I don't know if I can achieve it.
Y".

Does anyone have any idea what this means? More babble?
Gosh this is getting more and more confusing. The good news is I am not threatened by it because I don't expect it to mean all that much or more to the point I am not going to read anything hopeful into it.

I read the chapters on unconditional love and find them just amazing especially chapter 6 that describes H to a T.

Comments anyone?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mapleleaf:
<strong>Orchid,
Thank you so much for your thorough analysis of my post. I know this is babble and I really liked your post on counter babble but there always remains that doubt: what if there was some truth in the middle of the fog talk. I think we are all subject to the gnawing fear that we may be making a mistake. When I see my H crying and confused I know he isn't making it up. On the other hand I know that he is just waffling like he has been doing for years now and it has to end for me AND for him. I also know that he is incapable of making a decision now and maybe never be and that the only solution for me is to extract myself from his mess for my onw sake even if it means a D in the end.

My IC asked me if he was a perfectionist and he is. She said that perfectionists tend to measure sucess by what they have accomplished and not by their emotional sucess. When something happens to them emotionally or if they feel like a failure for one thing (in his case having an A and hurting me) they feel like they have failed in everything and they get very depressed and hopeless. Since my H is chronically depressed in the first place it may accentuate it.

I know H is actually worried that people will think less of him. I asked if there were any more surprises waiting for me and he said he did not know but if people made a comment I should say that we have separated for 3 month (actually it's 2)This is a way to show others that he is not at fault for being with someone else. So he is feeling very guilty and very bad about losing his reputation as a great guy (that's what people always say of him).

So I think all he really cares about is not looking like the bad guy. I threw him out so what else could he do?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well your H sounds similar to mine.... and they think they are unique.... LOL!! His confusion is actually a good sign. When my WS wanted me to fudge so he looked better, I told him: "no, you want me to tell more stuff?" That gave him the option to keep what he had or I could easily make him look worse. I learned not to give into his manipulative threats.

My WS wanted to look better to others and is a sort of a perfectionist. One of the things he learned to accept upon his return is that he DOES make mistakes and acknowleging them was one of the requirements he had to meet before he came home. A biggie for me since I choose to not take blame for his actions (like I was responsible for his A - duh!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )

L.

ML; Their desire to "look good", I think, is almost universal. Although my W and I have not actually had a confrontation about that, she has said it many times in emails, and she usually couches it as "manipulating the kids against me" becasue she KNOWS that if she dared to bring it up, I'd say outright "What? You want me to lie to protect you?" or somehting like that.

But she still feels like I should, like "how can you not get this?!?!". As if it was my reponsibility to protect her reputation or something...babble!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mapleleaf:
<strong>"Hello X:
It was good to read your email. I hope for a simple time when we could be together and be content just feeling fufilled and at ease with one another.
I don't know if I can achieve it.
Y".

Does anyone have any idea what this means? More babble?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would interpret what he says as "that is a beautiful way to love, like we were before, but I don't think I am capable or worthy of it anymore. But I wish I was."

Not too surprising. Self-esteem and their sense of worth is at its lowest as the magnitude of their actions starts to weigh on them. They believe they are no longer worthy of your love, and doubt your ability/desire to forgive, so they just start feeling like giving up.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I read the chapters on unconditional love and find them just amazing especially chapter 6 that describes H to a T.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You should get the book.

H's e-mail
"Hello X:
It was good to read your email. I hope for a simple time when we could be together and be content just feeling fufilled and at ease with one another.
I don't know if I can achieve it.
Y".

SC:
I would interpret what he says as "that is a beautiful way to love, like we were before, but I don't think I am capable or worthy of it anymore. But I wish I was."

Not too surprising. Self-esteem and their sense of worth is at its lowest as the magnitude of their actions starts to weigh on them. They believe they are no longer worthy of your love, and doubt your ability/desire to forgive, so they just start feeling like giving up.

ML: Do you think another interpretation could be:
"It's beautiful way to love but I don't think I am capable of it with you because it would mean losing my dream (R with OW) and it is what keeps me alive right now."

We must laways remember that is fog for us is their reality, no matter how much we wish it were not so. My H knows that our M was a good one in that I provided most EN's: conversation, affection, admiration, domestic support, recreation, financial support (we both have good jobs), personal appearance, SF etc...
If anything I did not demand enough for myself. This may actually have been one of the problems. He took me for granted and knew I would always be there no matter what. I have demonstrated that well in the last 3 years since d-day.

BUT, in spite of all that, HE was unhappy. He believes that if he loses OW (the woman he knew when he was young, healthy and relatively worry-free and happy) he will be left with the emptiness he associates with me and our M. In reality it is an emptiness that he has felt all his life and that is what I cannot fix for him. I told him the other day that he was right, I cannot give him what he wants from me and that I was not talking about letting him continue his relationship with OW. That what he wants from me, he can only give himself. It seemed to register a bit but who knows. I sure don't know what goes through to him and what does not. I hope some of it does and that one day he will remember something.
I think that when he cries, he cries because he sees that he is the problem, no one else and and what he has given up on is trying to fix himself. He gave up long ago on himself and he is scared to change the HIM he is so familiar with. He is scared stiff and it paralyses him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mapleleaf:
<strong>...ML: Do you think another interpretation could be:
"It's beautiful way to love but I don't think I am capable of it with you because it would mean losing my dream (R with OW) and it is what keeps me alive right now."</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It may be that is what he is trying to say, but you and I both know (and hopefully one day he will too) that if he thinks that it is because he's not taking responsibility for HIS issues and believes the "fantasy" of the OW is what he needs and will "save" him, when in reality what he needs it to look inside and deal with his issues. It's a way to avoid change, avoid reality, get a temporary "fix". Not a real solution to the problem.

And you know what? I think you validate this by the rest of your statements below!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We must always remember that is fog for us is their reality, no matter how much we wish it were not so. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes; right now it's his "reality". But it's NOT real. And that will probably become apparent, even to him, at some point.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
My H knows that our M was a good one in that I provided most EN's: conversation, affection, admiration, domestic support, recreation, financial support (we both have good jobs), personal appearance, SF etc...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right. This validates my point: when he realizes his issues, and chooses to deal with them, he will recognize this as true.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If anything I did not demand enough for myself. This may actually have been one of the problems. He took me for granted and knew I would always be there no matter what. I have demonstrated that well in the last 3 years since d-day.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't blame yourself for this. His actions for years tripped you up and you did not know what you were tripping on. You kept trying to "fix" things without knowing what was broken and couldn't fix it, so you began to believe it was your failing and lost part of your self-esteem. You were fumbling around in the dark for a long time. Naturally, the person you became was not "worthy" of his respect and your value, in his eyes, diminished. All the while he didn't realize his actions were the primary cause of this.

This is precisely on of those issues which the WS has a very hard time seeing and realizing. But it is amply documented by all serious thinkers and experts in this field. It is an issue I have struggled and wrestled with from day 1, because the WS does not realize easily that apart from the devastation of the A on the M, the very acts they have performed in protection of their affair, have further damaged and hurt the BS, the R and the M. It is almost a completely different and additional element of destruction that further erodes the M. In other words, the act of having the affair and protecting it continues to damage the R, giving the WS even further "ammunition" for their belief that the BS is at fault and not worthy of them, it is used as justification of the A. Almost a self-fulfilling prophesy. A vicious cycle of on-going destruction which further justifies the A.

I will add a couple of quotes from the book Patterns of Infidelity and Their Treatment which I was reading last night, and which further document this very issue, already amply documented in all serious Infidelity books.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>…in Dance of Deception Harriet Lerner states, “No matter what the potential for intimacy in a marriage, it is impossible to feel close to a person one is hiding from, confusing, throwing off track, deceiving”</strong>

<strong> Bradshaw asserts, …The pain and suffering of shame generate automatic and unconscious defenses…because they are unconscious, we lose touch with the shame, hurt and pain they cover up. We cannot heal what we cannot feel”</strong>

<strong>”When the marital contract includes monogamy, and it usually does, a hidden affair is not just a betrayal, but a time-bomb. Not only is information about the affair hidden, but the process of secrecy results in additional layers of secrecy that are necessary to hide the original secret. With a secret affair, communication about other matters is gradually impaired. The person not in on the secret feels left out and wonders, “What’s the matter with me?” Attempts to “fix things” fail because the true nature of the problem is not known. Growth is impossible, and the intimacy that once existed erodes.”</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BUT, in spite of all that, HE was unhappy. He believes that if he loses OW (the woman he knew when he was young, healthy and relatively worry-free and happy) he will be left with the emptiness he associates with me and our M. In reality it is an emptiness that he has felt all his life and that is what I cannot fix for him. I told him the other day that he was right, I cannot give him what he wants from me and that I was not talking about letting him continue his relationship with OW. That what he wants from me, he can only give himself. It seemed to register a bit but who knows. I sure don't know what goes through to him and what does not. I hope some of it does and that one day he will remember something.
I think that when he cries, he cries because he sees that he is the problem, no one else and what he has given up on is trying to fix himself. He gave up long ago on himself and he is scared to change the HIM he is so familiar with. He is scared stiff and it paralyses him. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course he was unhappy; not only did he have the original issues that led to the A, but as time went on and the effects of the A and the secrecy further took their toll on you, the M and the R, he had even MORE “reasons” for the A. Until even he does not realize what all of this means and how it could possibly have reached the levels it reached. Until everything seems hopeless. And naturally, he blames you for it, because what else could it be? It couldn’t be him, could it? Or the affair itself? And the secrecy? Those questions never even crossed his mind.

And now, as the first glimmers of understanding begin to appear (unrecognized consciously by him), he cries, he feels desperate, he can’t find a way to fix this, he can’t even comprehend the extent of the devastation to himself, the M, the R and to you…it feels like there’s no way out, so how can he even BEGIN to try? It is a problem beyond his capacity to solve. And so, he “gives up”, he cannot fathom the changes that would be required to begin to repair the damage…it is the beginning of the end…the road to crashing and burning which can lead to seeking help. And when it does, if it comes soon enough, you have the “tools” to begin the process of helping him, and recovering your M.

My dear, dear ML; it has been a very long, hard, painful road for you. And you have stuck with it. Suffered immensely; perhaps too much. But if your heart still allows you to continue, then do so, because you are the only one who can decide when it’s enough. But remember this; work on you, help yourself, heal yourself, love yourself. Because either way, you will make it through this and you have the responsibility to yourself to make you happy, to heal you. You have to unconditionally love yourself; and that is all you can do right now. That way, when he comes to you for help, you will have in you what you need to give him, so that he may begin the long, hard road back from the abyss.

You deserve, and have, all of our love.

SC,
You asked an an earlier post if I had sent H the plan B letter. Actually when I spoke to SH he said that I should work on it and that I would send it to him in a month to "remind him why we are where we are".

So I have been working on it all this time and this the latest version:

My Dear X,

This is a difficult letter for me to write. It comes from the heart, so please read every word I have written.

I sincerely apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your relationship with OW possible. I was unable to help you when you needed me the most. I wish I had understood what you were not saying. I regret it but the past cannot be changed. We tried many times to tell each other what we felt but we did it in a resentful often hurtful way and each refused to listen to or accept what the other had to say. Now it seems we no longer know how because we are so afraid to get hurt.

I have tried many times to get into your shoes and I do understand more than you think, but I cannot accept a marriage as you define it. I know you have been in constant contact with her and still are. I do not condone it, or like it, but I have no choice. You are the only person who can make choices for you and I respect your decisions. All these years you elected not to make a choice, and sadly, I had to make the choice to remove myself from your triangle. It had become just too painful. I made the mistake of demanding what could only come freely from you. As you have told me many times you cannot give me what I want. I can wish this were not so as much as I want, it does not change the fact that it must be your decision and yours alone. I sincerely hope that you will be happy in whatever you choose and that you will find the peace and happiness that seem to elude you. You have been and still are my friend, and my husband. I only want true happiness for you and do not wish you any harm.

It means a great deal to me that you care enough to have kept trying. The harm of your affair has been done. It can be forgiven, but the relationship must end, forever, in order for that to happen. While forgiveness is a gift and we can choose to forgive each other for our mistakes, trust must be earned. And without trust no relationship can survive. I am not able to rebuild my trust in you if you maintain a private and secret life with another woman. I don&#8217;t blame you for what has happened. You did what you felt you needed to do at a difficult time in your life. You did not feel you could turn to me and that is my failing. Marriage is an agreement freely entered into by two people to mutually agreed terms - for us that meant we committed ourselves to love, honor and cherish each other, in sickness and in health, forsaking all others, and keeping ourselves only unto each other. You have changed the terms of this agreement and I do not agree to these new terms. I have found out by trying that I am not the kind of person who can accommodate you in this. It hurts too much. You are and have always been free to live your life as you saw fit. No one made you marry me and you have always been free to go. Nothing but your own will led you into another woman&#8217;s arms and you alone choose to now live alone in an empty apartment.

I can commit to a marriage based on honesty, openness and mutual respect and care for the other's well being. Without them there can be no closeness, no emotional intimacy and no trust. I cannot commit to marriage on any terms other than those. I am willing to avoid the mistakes I&#8217;ve made in the past and discuss ways for us to create a new life that will meet both our needs. Perhaps someday you will again feel the need for the emotional connection we once had. At that time I will be happy to discuss our future together. But for now I would prefer to see you as little as possible. It is very painful for me to see you knowing that you are intimate with someone else. I don&#8217;t want more sadness in my life. I want to hang on to the beautiful memories of our life together not create painful ones. I feel stronger now and I know that no matter what the future holds for us I will be all right.

When we married I thought it would be forever and never considered that we would be apart one day. The thought that we may not grow old together truly pains me. We have had great times and we had bad times, but we had each other and for many wonderful years it was enough.

I understand how difficult all this is for you as well but we cannot make the mistake we made in the past, thinking that by concealing your other relationship, things would work themselves out and that by splitting yourself we could have a fulfilling life together. I accept responsibility for my part in the fall of our marriage and am trying to understand how I contributed to it, but I will no longer accept responsibility for your part. I want you to come back to me emotionally but I know that can only come from you. I want us to spend the rest of our lives together. I believe in you. I marvel at what you've done for us and for so many others over the years. Everywhere in the house are reminders of what you have accomplished but it is what you have done for me that I cherish the most. You have changed me in so many positive ways. You have taught me so much and I don&#8217;t mean how to hold a drill or make the perfect joint. You helped me become a better person.

You made yourself the person you are today. Nobody else did. You deserve to be as proud as I am of your accomplishments as a man, and as a doctor. I want to be your best friend, someone you can turn to when you are sad, mad or unhappy. And I want you to be my best friend again. We can only get there if we both want it. I am offering to help you in this. Will you help me?

All my love, Y

PLease everyone please feel free to comment.

<small>[ September 07, 2002, 06:51 PM: Message edited by: mapleleaf ]</small>

Today was one of the loneliest days of my life. I kept thinking what a waste this all is and what little importance our past as a couple has right now for H. All the things he says mattered to him seem to have faded in comparison with his R with OW.
I know I should not think of that but when I am alone it is hard to not think about it. My thoughts move like small boat on a wave. One minute I am on top and optimistic about my life with or without H. The next I am under the water gasping for air, sure that our marriage is slowly drowning.
One minute I tell myself this is not the end of the world, I can stand on my two feet; the next I feel my legs have been ripped from me and I can't go anywhere. H was my legs and I have phantom-limb pain. It feels like he is here but he is not and all that is there is the burning pain. I guess we are so used to having our spouses with us, supporting us as we advance in life, that when they are gone we still feel their presence but that feeling is painful.
I know in my heart that I, even perhaps we, will be all right in the end and that after the bad times things always get better. I just hope this is as bad as it gets.

ML;
I'm sorry you are having a tough day...I know Sundays seem to be lonelier than other days.

But cheer up, it's a beautiful day, and tomorrow will bring better things!

demain est un autre jour! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

And the saga continues.

H came over tonight to work on our income tax. I understand NOTHING AT ALL about taxes and he has always taken care of this. Anyway, things worked out and the encounter was pleasant over all.

I asked him how he was doing. He said OK. That he wants to have some peace in his life, that he is a good man and wants to come back to being with me. That he had a good home base. BUT he does not know if he can fill my conditions. I asked him what those are and he replied: "Well you want me to love you and you don't value companionship." (He once told me that we could have a good life together being companions. That of course implied that he would continue on with his "other" life and we would be roommates. At least that's how I interpreted it). He did say that he would be willing to change certain things. He stayed very vague. I said would you stop your affair. He said he could TRY! I asked him
if he had called SH. He said no, that when he had talked to him that one time a year ago he felt like he was talking to a Jehovah's witness. That he was trying to "convert" him and he was not ready to be converted at that point. I did tell him that we needed help with this and he said all we bneeded was to talk to each other. We had about 4 sessions with A MC last year and it was a disaster. She ended up by telling us she had never seen a M that was where we were survive. We never returned. So that's H's experience with counselling and it does not look like he'll go back or call SH.

I told him that I was not sure anymore. That going back to our old life was not an option and that if we were to get back together there needed to be big changes. He said that we could discuss things and have certain guidelines. There again he was very vague. It felt like pulling teeth and I was getting a little testy at this point. I told him that there was no way I was going through this again. That I would rather be alone for the rest of my life although I had no intention of doing that either.

I admit I LB'd a bit by telling him about certain things that he said in the past and he almost left mad. I apologised and asked him to give me a hug which he did. He left smiling and I could tell he was very tired. There were many times when I should have stopped the conversation but I just did not. It's as if I had to get this stuff off my chest. This is stuff I have already talked about so it served no purpose. I could kick myself. Why could I not keep my mouth shut? Will I ever learn?

I am mad at myself for not being cool but it gets me every time when he takes no responsabilty for anything. He said that "things" continued (his A I suppose) because of the way we interacted. And instead of counter babbling a la Orchid, I argued. He kept saying that he does not know how we can be happy together. That he does not think he can make me happy. To which I said you are right no one can MAKE anyone happy.

Anyway that's where we are for now. More babble but different tone. Could this be progress and fog lifting or just a man who is tired of living alone and ready to say anything to come back home?

sorry double post.

<small>[ September 10, 2002, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: mapleleaf ]</small>

Hi ML;

I'm sorry this encounter left you frustrated. Don't despair, though. We all have our "tough encounters" where we can't help but let go of the repressed feelings. Sounds a lot like the encounters I had w/my W when I told her I was leaving. Cheer up!

Unfortunately, it doesn't sound to me like he's ready to come home at all. While it DOES appear he's thinking about things, he's not "there" yet in my opinion. You can and should enforce your boundaries. It maes no sense to expose yourself to an active affair at home again!

Back to the plan, back to woking on you, and back to minimum contact, if any. He is certainly feeling the effects of that.

You be good to yourself, play tennis, enjoy the nice weather, smile, and give yourself a big hug from me!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

A bientot! SC