Mapleleaf,

Well you still sound like you ended up on the higher ground and even your H made some progress.

To be honest, those early days were hard on me. The WS waffled, kinda spoke about keeping his options open and well the WS even opposed talking to Steve. But he did talk with Steve or more like Steve listened while the WS talked.

My WS (now an H) has progressed much since that time last year. In fact tonight I reread part of my journal. Our computer crashed a few months ago and H just moved the files over to the new computer. He found my journal in a file I kept our family finances, I am sure he read some of it because he mentioned it. Anyway, I read it and felt the pain all over again. But it is better now.

By the way, Steve listens then speaks. Hm..... JW's talk to people looking for those willing to listen and learn (about the purpose of the Bible's hope for the future)....... no such thing as brain washing on their part and when it comes to MB stuff neither does Steve.

Maybe one day he will give a listen to Steve and anyone else who is honestly trying to 'help him' (including U).

Well......don't give up. I saw a glimmer of hope there so the fact that you got a bit upset isn't the end of the world... ok?!?!? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

take care,
L.

<small>[ September 11, 2002, 01:24 AM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

Orchid and SC,
Thank you for your encouraging words. I am actually more upset about losing my cool then about saying what I said. I am tired of that babble and the finger pointing so he can justify what he is doing.
I got an e-mail from him this morning after I left a message apologising for being testy:
"Thank you for the phone message last night. Of course there is really no reason to apologise and I don't dwell on it. I guess it's an important and emotional topic for us."
So he is not pouting atleast. Why do I feel guilty about saying things when he does not.

So, yes patience, detachment

ML,

I have been reading your thread lately. Wow. What a long and uphill climb you've had. I can't even begin to imagine how tired you must feel sometimes.

I noticed something as I was reading that I thought you might find interesting. You and your H's personalities have similar underlying characteristics to what Kat has told us her and her H had.

If you haven't already, you might want to read her thread in Recovery.

Kat's Inner Child thread

Don't feel bad that you lost your cool. If I were in your position would have done exactly the same thing....only worse.

We are only human and there is only so much we can shoulder before we fall down. The important thing is you are wise enough to get up again by coming here to share yourself with us.

E_C

EC,
Thank you for pointing out the thread about the inner child. I have printed it and will read it tonight after I come home from dinner with my ILs. They have been very good to me but I have not seen them much and I don't discuss our troubles.

I had a session with SH this morning. He asked me to bring him up to date. I actually read part of my thread to him. He asked me what my plan was as far as the time limit I had set for myself. When I said Mid-October which will be the anniversary of D-DAy, he said that he would prefer that I "pace myself closer to the end of the year because he sees changes going on."
He told me to hold my position (i.e. what I need from H to consider his coming back home) and to repeat that position every time I see him. He says it will eventually sink in, that H is not being honest with OW otherwise there isn't much chance she would still be around after all this time. That she will eventually put pressure on him since he is not at home anymore and once all that sinks in he will have to look at his options.

He says there are three conditions for love.
1/ you have received it in the past
2/ you are receiving it now
3/ you believe you will receive it in the future
Otherwise love is not maintained.

So he believes that eventually OW will realise that there is no hope for the future and will put pressure on H to move along with their R and that is when H will have to make decisions.

He said that if I am able to wait a few more months, to keep on, limit contact, reiterate why we are where we are and if he keeps telling me that I threw him out, instead of arguing, ask him "what did you want me to do?" To get info from him that way. See what he answers. Sounds like your famous reverse babble, Orchid.

Nothing SH said surprised me really. He sensed that I was still willing to go the extra mile and I am. I don't have much to lose and a lot to gain from what he says.

So I am on the roller coaster for a while longer. He said not to send the plan B letter I have been working so hard on. Now is not the moment because he sees progress and worries that it may set us back at this point. He said not to bring up OR, to let H do that and see what happens.

So those are my marching orders and I will soldier on.

Rat, tat, tat.... (hear that?????)

That's the sound of my drum as I support you in following your marching orders.

You've been amazingly strong on this roller coaster ride from h*ll. I, for one, really admire you.

E_C

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mapleleaf:
<strong>
......

I had a session with SH this morning. He asked me to bring him up to date. I actually read part of my thread to him......he said that he would prefer that I "pace myself closer to the end of the year because he sees changes going on."
He told me to hold my position (i.e. what I need from H to consider his coming back home) and to repeat that position every time I see him. He says it will eventually sink in, that H is not being honest with OW otherwise there isn't much chance she would still be around after all this time. That she will eventually put pressure on him since he is not at home anymore and once all that sinks in he will have to look at his options.

He says there are three conditions for love.
1/ you have received it in the past
2/ you are receiving it now
3/ you believe you will receive it in the future
Otherwise love is not maintained.

So he believes that eventually OW will realise that there is no hope for the future and will put pressure on H to move along with their R and that is when H will have to make decisions.

He said that if I am able to wait a few more months, to keep on, limit contact, reiterate why we are where we are and if he keeps telling me that I threw him out, instead of arguing, ask him "what did you want me to do?" To get info from him that way. See what he answers. Sounds like your famous reverse babble, Orchid.

So I am on the roller coaster for a while longer. He said not to send the plan B letter I have been working so hard on. Now is not the moment because he sees progress and worries that it may set us back at this point. He said not to bring up OR, to let H do that and see what happens.

So those are my marching orders and I will soldier on.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well I partially quoted you to respond. U are seeing where this A is going and eventually that babble junk will get boring to hear and you will flat out give it a deaf ear. I personally got tired of their antics and told 'em so.

Steve is trying to work with your personal timeline and the demise of the A. When it does happen, don't be surprised if you start to have doubts about the M. Funny how we fight so hard at the beginning and then when they really show signs of coming back we begin to wonder......is it all worth this effort?

For me reverse babble was a stress reliever and it kept the WS wondering about his family. I liked that added effect and used it as often as I could (have to be careful you don't over do it).

JMHO,
L.

EC, I am flattered thst you admire me for being strong. I dont'see myself admirable at all. I Lb, I get depressed and I get ready to give up. I just hang in there. So nothign to admire.
Orchid, you are so on top of things. You ubderstand things and are logical. I wish iI coukd do the sane. I will look out for those signs and I hope I will not give up if he decides to come back. I want our M to work and I hope I can hang on.

I am tired of all this babble, it's true But I am optimistic too. This is one of my traits. I am fading now and am going to sleep as I have not slept much last night and am exhausted. I will come back to the BB soon.
THank you both for your complimants and advice.
r

I just woke up and reread my last post and I can see that I was half asleep when I wrote it. Every single word has a mistake in it. Would not have passed my english exam!

Otherwise it was just an uneventful day at work. That's actually how I want them nowadays. Peace, quiet, no hassle. I have noticed that I am much better at work these days. I am more patient with people, more understanding, less demanding. I am applying the MB principles almost unconciously. So all this has had at least some good.

I have not posted in a while because nothing much was happening and I needed a rest from the BB. I did continue reading some posts but did not feel I had much to say.

In the vein of "Do as I say, not as I did", I think the following is a perfect example of not doing what I do.

I saw my IC on Wednesday. We talked a lot about my H's secrets. How his affair was a secret he kept for a long time. Now his new secret is the fact that we are separated. She thinks he did not expect to be seen and that it must have been hard for him to realise that people would find out. She also said I help him keep his secrets, and that by doing so I am enabling his affair to continue. By not telling people who ask about him that we are not together, he still does not have to face the consequences of his affair. She says I protect him all the time and she was wondering why.

She also says that when he says something vague I don't ask to explain. As if I am afraid to find out what he really means. For instance when he told me that we could discuss getting back together and set some guidelines, he was vague and did not really say it in so many words. And I did not ask him to explain, it's true.

I asked her if I should ask him now? She said that I should call him on things he says and not let it go. She is right there are a lot of questions that I did not ask or did not pursue an answer to during our M and it was mostly because I did not want to bug him. Maybe it was also because I did not want the wrong answer. I have always walked on eggs with him and have always settled for what he wanted to tell me and no more. On the other hand I was always honest with him, an open book. He had access to my mail, my e-mail and I never had his password. I never thought to ask.

I had dinner with his parents and I was surprised that they did not believe he was having an affair. His mother kept telling that while I was away in Europe he went to their cottage and they saw him this or that week-end. As it turns out it was only a few days and they think the rest of the time he is at home. Hello?

Anyway they wondered if they should speak to him. I told them to do what they thought best, that I had no opinion. My H knew I had gone to dinner with them and must have wondered what they would say to me.

After my counselling session I decided to ask my H the questions I did not ask, i.e what he meant about guidelines. I called him to tell him I wnated to talk to him and he said that it would have to be tonight because he would not be here this week-end. I asked him if he was going to OW city and he said yes. I kept my calm somehow but it was a blow especially since the last discussion about guidelines and all that.

Anyway this time I went to his place. He was not too happy at first for some reason but as we talked about everyday stuff over a beer (his job, the view from his appartment etc... ) he became more relaxed. Then I asked what he meant the other day and where he was in his mind, what he wanted. He told me he had seen his parents and they blasted him about what he was doing, asked him what kind od woman would have an affair with a MM and so on. I asked him how he felt about it. He replied that it was hard being criticised so harshly by one's parents. He was visibly shaken. He talked about the need for him to do the right thing. I asked him what that meant and he said to stop seeing OW. He did not say he would not go this week-end of course and I doubt that he changed his plans.

To make a long story short I understood that he wants people to believe he is doing the right while continuing to do the wrong thing.
I also understand that once more I am available, forgiving and understanding and that I continue to help him to keep his secret.

So Spacecase, remember how some people said we should not modify plan B and you were wondering about how to deal with your wife. Well I firmly believe now that my pseudo plan B is enabling the continuation of the A, that by not telling people that we are separated is enabling the A, and by going to him instead of waiting for him to come to me is enabling the A.

Comments, all my friends?

Dear Mapleleaf,

Good to hear from you. Hard realization to know that when our fears of facing issues enable the A, it is hard to take. But your reaction was one of progress. I am quite proud of how you were able to take the viewpoint/counsel from your IC and apply it. See secrets of this sort are what make up the fantasy world. It happened to me and I am an advocate of exposing the falsehood. It helps put the truth back in the forefront but it could lead to D or recon. Either way. However the benefit is that the doubts are erased. Now that it is out in the open, there will be less fantasy.

For me, exposing the A created a turning point. I was no longer the center of blame to be used as the punching bag by the WS and OP. Now how this is done requires direction and skill. But it can be done and in many cases should be done sooner but always for the RIGHT reasons. Revenge is NOT a right reason.

Take a look at Redhat's thread about enabling the A. I could see the places where I did by my giving and fixing nature actually enable the A. It infuriated me. Now I use that anger and channel it into something productive. Now that the truth is on the table, that A fantasy melted fast. All of a sudden that OW just didn't look as good in a real environment as she did in the adult porn cartoon land they drew up for themselves. Why? Oh yea, in real life, she has wrinkles, gray hair, no boobs or saggy boobs, zits and problems just like the rest of us. LOL!! ....or at least some of us!?!?!?!? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

take care,
L.

Orchid,

Could not find Redhat's thread about enabling. Could someone give me a link to it?

I woke up this morning with a very heavy heart. I kept thinking of H with OW this week-end and kept telling myself that there was no way out of all this. I love him . He loves her. She loves him. And no one loves me. I am just there waiting for the impossible to happen while they both wait for me to give up. That way OW does not LB (she must have learned her lesson well from my H using me as an example about what not to do). H does not have to be a bad guy because he does not leave me, I leave him. He keeps telling me how I threw him out so he will say that I divorced him.

H only wants to be home so that no one will discover what he has done and for those who know, he will have done "the right thing". There is no mention of me in all this. He never asks what I want or what I feel. It's all about HIM and HIS feelings and how I don't understand HIM and what HE is going through.

And as someone said here, why would I work so hard to get back someone who does not want me? The other day when I went to his place I brought him some mail, a robe and the book "After the Affair" by Alice Spring. I don't know if he will read it Probably not. Nothing ever applies to him.

As you can see I am a bit down today. Week-ends are always difficult for me. I feel very alone and yet I make up excuses so I don't have to go anywhere. What is wrong with me? I am indeed ready to give up but deep down I know I am not. Why can't I get the courage to end it all and start a new life somewhere else far from all this crap? It can't be any more painful than this.

Sorry all for this depressing thread. I am so tired today and it's only morning. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Orchid,
As soon as I posted I saw Redhat's thread so I have my answer.Thank you for the tip.
You are right it is very hard to realise that what I am doing is instrumental in the continuation of the affair. It's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" sort of situation.

I also realise now that the only reason we are still married is because I hung on all these years knowingly and unknowingly. So I feel like if I stop doing what I am doing (whatever that is!) everything will come crumbling down. It's as if I am holding everything up even the affair and that amazes me.
So for the affair to end, our marriage has to end? Does that make any sense to anyone? If it does, please explain it to me because that would really be a revelation to me.

I am more and more convinced that more people need to know about this so that H gets input from others, good and bad. I know this can backfire but at this point what more can happen. We are already headed for a negative outcome as it is because I am really getting to the end of my rope.

Orchid, SC, Hope4future, SDH, how would you go about it? any suggestions all you MB sages?

Originally posted by mapleleaf:
<strong>ML:....it is very hard to realise that what I am doing is instrumental in the continuation of the affair. It's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" sort of situation.</strong>

L: Yes it is hard to accept but recognition of this fact is the 'beginning of the acceptance stage' on the grieving of this family tragedy. Also the beginning of healing in a personal way and if your H choose and you are still willing possibly even marital recovery.

See personal recovery is controlled by the person. Marital recovery requires participation and cooperation by both the H & W.

So focus on how you can minimize contribuing to the A. That is where plan A comes in. Not the doormat approach a true respectful loving but firm plan A.

<strong>IML: also realise now that the only reason we are still married is because I hung on all these years knowingly and unknowingly. So I feel like if I stop doing what I am doing (whatever that is!) everything will come crumbling down. It's as if I am holding everything up even the affair and that amazes me.</strong>

L: Are you sure that's the only reason or just how you are feeling now? If the M was bad a long time ago, why didn't he get out sooner? Ponder that carefully before you beat yourself up with unneccessary grief. Just because you may have 'contributed' some to the A doesn't mean you should take all the blame.

See for me, my part was that I worked hard at home and work. Always working. H's family is completely dysfunctional so we (primarily me) dealt with his family's issues every month almost every week since we have been married (over 10 years)! Coupled with other normal problems/issues, etc that show up in one's normal life, the WS felt neglected. But it certainly wasn't because I was being selfish or irresponsible!!! You getting this? My contribution was because I was working tooo hard!!! Go figure? I actually had to tell my FIL and MIL to go take care of their own problems so I could deal with my own!

Refocus here. Work on strengthening yourself. Don't count on your H a being the smart one here. He may not have lost all his marbles but he sure isn't making new ones!!!

So plan on him being stupid for a while, you go improve yourself and he will see it. May not say anything but he will see it. Trust me..... mine did and he is stubborn. LOL!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


<strong>ML:So for the affair to end, our marriage has to end? Does that make any sense to anyone? If it does, please explain it to me because that would really be a revelation to me.</strong>

Sometimes yes but not always. Or it may even head down that path. The point is you strengthen your inner resolve to be a better person. It will widen the gap between you and your H but it will also highlight the difference between you and the OW.

The OW only looks as good as she does in the FOG!!! By daylight (reality living) she will pale in comparison to you. You are the one that can be counted on in time of real need and give real love. The A's definition of love is not the true definition. So what good is looking at a picture of a good meal but not being able to actually eat? That is the the A is to real family love.

For me, I had to actually learn how to do the D. I met with the lawyer, took a walk down to the family court, met with the advice personnel there, did research on the internet, separated our finances, split our taxes, talked with the school and daycare, removed the Ws from my work benefits and even tried to remove him from my medical coverage (couldn't since he was self employeed). This was all done after he moved out. Even encouraged him to hurry up and get the D!!! Imagine that (of course that was as he was begging to come home but with an attitude),.

The point is that I knew I was not as bad as the OW was claiming. She would have had me thrown in jail if she could. She did threaten to do so. I told her go ahead.

At that point I did not want the man the WS had become. I wanted my H back and I told the WS to go find him. You know what? he did. The WS said he wanted to find the real H also.
That was the 1st inkling of recovery I saw.

<strong>ML: I am more and more convinced that more people need to know about this so that H gets input from others, good and bad. I know this can backfire but at this point what more can happen. We are already headed for a negative outcome as it is because I am really getting to the end of my rope.</strong>

I agree. Now how and when is important. Your motive must be for the right reason. I set my boundaries and did not disclose all to all. I did ask each one at the onset to please respect my decisions, when I got their nod, then I proceeded to tell. See they knew some but not all. If they wanted to be taken into my confidence I needed theirs as well.

Remember the outcome will be negative to those who allow it to be. You have the opportunity to put a positive spin on it. For you not for your H but for U.

<strong>ML: Orchid, SC, Hope4future, SDH, how would you go about it? any suggestions all you MB sages?</strong>

I wrote a lot again!!! Sorry..... hope it helps.

hugz,
L.

Orchid, there you are again, always ready to help. Thank you so much for taking the time to explain things to me. It means a lot to me that you care.

My IC said something similar about facing reality or rather my hesitation to do so. You are both right. I know I am afraid to find out that our marriage is indeed over and that H is indeed waiting for me to give up so he can ome out faultless or at least better than if he left me. I can't seem to accept that H is not who I thought he was and that our marriage was not the fairy tale I thought it was for so long. I am afraid of finding out that the bond I thought we had, has never been there or at least nowhere near as strong as I thought. I am afraid, period.

At times though, I feel strong and ready to take on whatever comes my way but then something happens like knowing where my H is this week-end and I get very scared again. I have to work on me before I can do anything about us. I know that. I have to take that extra step into the unknown. I have done that so many times in my life and yet I can't seem to be able to do it now.

You are right that disclosure of our situation should be done for the right reasons, at the right time and in the appropriate fashion but I don't know when that is. My C advised me to just respond to people who inquire about him but I don't think even his 2 best friends who live in another city know. Maybe they do. Who knows? Every year mid October, H and I go with these friends on a week-end wine tasting tour. We made the B&B reservations last year for this year as we always do. I don't know what H has done about that but he mentioned that last week and when I asked him if he planned to go ( HE not WE) he said he had not talked about it with our friends.
He might be worried that he may have to tell them about us. This is so nerve racking, all this secrecy is driving me nuts!

Why can't he just tell his friends, move to OW's city and get it over with? And for that matter why don't I get it over with?

Orchid, no need to answer that one.....

Hi ML;
I'm so sorry you had such a difficult weekend. Hope things start looking up.

First of all, I have to say that we ALL make mistakes in this process, and there is NO reason to get yourself down over that. We all do, we're human, and that's a fact. We do what we know how to do at anygiven moment; when we learn more or differently, we do more or do it differently...c'est la vie! And it's OK.

Of course no two situations compare exactly, but I have never hidden the fact that my W was having an affair from anyone who asked. I didn't go out of my way to tell the whole world, but I never lied about it. Of course, I've gotten no end of grief from her about that, but that's just how it is...I will not lie to conceal her secret and protect her.

Now some people I actually went and told; like my MIL, and my parents and brothers, one close friend, and our children.

Same now about our being separated. I tell if it comes up. Freinds call and say "when are you guys coming over?" what am I supposed to say? I tell them we're separated. And obviously her family here knows since I've stopped showing up for our dinners...

But there is no doubt that to some extent all of us enable the A in some way or ways...it just can't be helped. The only way to avoid it completely would be to just divorce...and since we're trying not to do that...

I also think you did well in talking to him; you had issues you felt needed to be clarified, and you did it. OK, so you went to him...as long as it's not a permanent thing, I think it's OK. I've emailed my W and gone over too when I needed to say something I felt was important...it doesn't mean she believes I'm there for "the taking"...she knows it's not like that; that has been clear; very clear.

Perhaps once Steve OKs your sending the Plan B letter, you'll be able to more clearly maintain your boundaries. That will put everything on the table.

You're doing OK, ML; keep learning, keep being strong, and keep up your spirits! You deserve it!
Big hug!

ML?
Ca va bien?